Clips Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: MLB Trade Rumors: Edwin Jackson to the White Sox, DC next?

Hollinger on Thornton and Baron

When Citizen edu_argentina posted a FanShot last week pointing out some of John Hollinger's overly pessimistic analysis concerning the Clippers, I said that I was actively ignoring him.  Well, I lied.  It irritates me, and I have a few things to say about it.

First of all, for a guy who is supposedly data-driven, we've long suspected that he nonetheless takes the simplistic and decidedly unscientific  "it's the Clippers" angle to arrive at his conclusions.  Well, I for one never thought that he'd just openly admit it.  He's got Baron Davis ranked as the ninth best point guard in the NBA, with a drop off in production from last season.  He also hints at a "Clipper tragedy."  Now, I think there are several reasons that one could cite to explain the potential for a decline in Baron Davis this season.  For one thing, most statistical measures, and PER is no exception, reward offensive play, even when adjusted for the pace of the game.  So the simple fact that he's moved from the Warriors to the Clippers could account for a statistical drop off.  You could even make the less clear cut argument that his effectiveness would be reduced on a less free-wheeling team.  And you can explain your pessimism simply by pointing to Baron's age and saying he's due to lose a step.  Hollinger hints at all of that, but he goes a step further (emphasis added):

Throw in that he's 29 and has a history of injuries, that this is the Clippers, and that he joined the squad mainly for non-basketball reasons, and this one has the makings of a classic Clipper tragedy. While the Clips got the best player available in free agency once Elton Brand opted out, this marriage seems doomed from the start.

'This is the Clippers?'  Well, there you go.  Nice analysis there, John.  Rock solid.  I'm also fascinated by this 'non-basketball reasons' thing, as if Baron Davis is going to skip a bunch of games this season while he's attending movie premieres.  The irony of course is that Elton Brand chose Philadelphia over LA in large part because it is closer to his home and his family - for 'non-basketball reasons' if you will.  Has anyone fretted over him having a poor season because he'll be too busy at picnics and reunions?  Quite the contrary - the conventional wisdom on Brand is that he made a decision that will make him happier and more comfortable in his personal life, and that in turn will reflect as higher productivity as a player.  Which is in fact the most logical analysis.  A happy player is a productive player.  Why that same, simple, obvious, conclusion doesn't apply to Baron Davis is beyond me.

As for Thornton, we've touched on Hollinger's seeming blind spot for the guy in the past.  He prediced he'd be a bust, and he seems determined to prove his prediction correct, at least anywhere that he's allowed to write.  Never mind that he was first team all rookie.  He's a bust, because Hollinger says he is.  Any forward-looking analysis attempting to predict the performance of a second year player would take several obvious factors into consideration.  For instance, Thornton played much better in the second half of his rookie season than in the first half.  That bodes well for year two, right?  Also, Al was playing out of position at the power forward last year, but will play his natural NBA position this season.  So that's good too, right?  And it's insincere to fault Thornton for forcing shots without pointing out how little help he had last season.  I agree that Al needs to play more under control, take better shots, and pass more.  But that was barely an option last season, as there was rarely anyone to pass to.  An improved cast of characters around him should improve his efficiency.

Sure, Hollinger hits on his old-favorite, that Thornton is old for a rookie.  Whatever.  And he needs to be more consistent and more efficient, which by the way, is true of every second year player, including Kevin Durant.  Isn't that yet another obvious thing that will simply improve with NBA experience?  But his Thornton bashing agenda seems to be betrayed by not one but two references to a penchant for goal tending: 

...he made some of the worst goaltending violations I've ever seen..... Thornton ... had a bad habit of goaltending shots that were abundantly, clearly on their way down.

This is one of the 'holes' in Thornton's game?  Fascinating.

Now, let's take a guess as to who watched more Clippers games last season, John Hollinger or ClipperSteve.  I'm guessing it was me.  A bad habit of goaltending?  Really?  I totally missed that.  I watched almost every minute of every game.  And then I wrote recaps.  I tend to harp on little things - basketball IQ things.  But when you search Clips Nation for 'Thornton' and 'goaltend' you find one occurrence - I pointed out a dumb goaltend in a game in Orlando last season.

Now, that doesn't prove that it didn't happen more.  But I ask you Citizens - did Al Thornton have a bad habit of goaltending?  If you actually watched Clippers basketball last season, you know that he had some bad habits, including a tendency to foul three point shooters.  In all the thousands and thousands of words on this blog about last season, there's one reference to a Thornton goaltend.  Nothing in the comments.  Nothing in the FanPosts.  I mentioned it once, and no one else mentioned it ever.  Yet Hollinger feels like it's important enough and noticeable enough to bring it up in his preview of the guy - twice.

Because, you know, older rookies have a bad habit of goaltending.

1 recs  |  Comment 8 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Goal tend

not from what I remember. It seems Hollinger is getting desperate and if the clips do well I hope that it will destroy any credibility he has left.

by bestclipfan on Oct 19, 2008 4:37 PM PDT reply actions  

Nope

No goaltending….nothing that sticks out at least.

On Baron Davis & EB. One could argue that the LA Hollywood type life is much more distracting than the family life EB is going back to, so I do see a valid comment there.

Hollinger is decidedly anti-Clipper so I don’t really take his comments with that much heft. Everyone seems to have the “oh it’s the Clippers” sentiment.

Just be thankful you can get past that.

by Newtybar on Oct 19, 2008 7:28 PM PDT reply actions  

My point...

Yes, LA could be more distracting the Philly. I’d certainly rather be in LA. But that argument would be valid for anyone moving to LA, wouldn’t it? Did anyone predict a drop in productivity for Pau Gasol, because he’d have more distractions in LA than in Memphis? It’s a double standard. The simple, straightforward conclusion is ‘Baron Davis wanted to play in his hometown, he got his wish, he’ll be motivated to play well.’

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Oct 20, 2008 7:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hollinger - Thornton

ClipperSteve, you’ve got it spot on. Hollinger is desperate to validate his precious PER and his own original calls, so things that seem to invalidate those gifts from on high just MUST be… well they have to be wrong don’t they? NBA League Pass allowed me to enjoy quite a few Clipper games and I certainly don’t remember any goaltending problems that Al had. Interesting that Hollinger has Thornton DROPPING his PER stat, despite running with Baron this year and the promise of increased fast break points, heretofore non-existent alley-oops, and getting the ball in better position to score generally, just because he finally has a good point to play with along with the other factors you mention. The PER is supposed to be derived from this nearly all encompassing variety of variables… to bad that logic isn’t one of them.

by dwb on Oct 19, 2008 7:42 PM PDT reply actions  

Can't remember

I hear you ClipperSteve. I’ve often had a problem with Hollinger’s PER. For example, how poorly defensive players rate out (Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier) or how Steve Nash is never considered one of the top 20 players. But, Hollinger’s projections are based on players that are similar in age, stats and playing style, so while it’s not an exact science (like, i for one believe Al is going to blow up this year, and I think the Clips will be one of the best defensive teams in the league if healthy) the projections are not his personal beliefs, but instead some sort of formula based on past players.

Check his assessment of Dwayne Wade. Wade’s PER is projected as very low because he was injured last season, and the formula doesn’t take into account injuries, family issues, etc. But in his assessment, he believes Wade will have a much better PER than the projection.

As for the Baron thing. Baron and Brand can’t really be compared at all. Before last season, EB had reached the 80 game plateau 4 times, and got to 79 games one other (averaging 75 games over 8 seasons). BD, on the other hand, after his first few years in the league, has only reached 80 plus games once, last season in a contract year. He’s averaged around 67 games for his career. Also, Baron’s had problems with his coaches at pretty much every stop, while Brand has been the commensurate professional. I love BD and I know he’s a top 3 PG talent, but it’s his up and down effort level and desire to film movies that makes his “non-basketball reasons.” If you don’t believe that isn’t a real problem, just check Shaq and what happened with him when he came to L.A.

Anyway, I look for good things for the Clips this season. But hollinger does a lot of extensive work, and while i might sound like his cheerleader here, i think we gotta give the guy a break. And, in all honesty, anyone outside of Clipperland would be wise to project low for the Clippers. Donald Sterling is our owner still (look how he did Elgin man).

by Dodgerblue15 on Oct 19, 2008 8:25 PM PDT reply actions  

Hollinger does not deserve a cheerleader.

BD is not a top 3 pg talent. Shaq won 3 rings when he came to L.A. Elgin shoulda “got done” a lot earlier. Hollinger is an asshat. Biased, pessimistic prick. No excuses for his treatment of Thornton. Unfortunately in the case of Thornton, he isn’t the only one who seems unable to say, “Maybe I’m wrong on this one.” Keep digging that hole, John.

by oneight on Oct 19, 2008 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes and No, Dodgerblue15

Yes, Hollinger’s projections are based on players of similar age, injury history, etc. So in general he thinks shooters and power forwards ‘age’ better than penetrators, and that’s based on data. I get that. But it’s precisely that issue that makes me take exception to his written analysis for these two Clippers. (In raw numbers, he is projecting a slight decrease in PER for Baron and pretty much the same for Al – I can’t argue Baron at all, though I think he’s missing the boat on Al.) It’s the comments where his unscientific bias is showing through, imho. ’It’s the Clippers’ is an obvious example, which is no doubt meant to be pithy. But the idea of harping on Thornton for what he considers to be dumb goaltends is the furthest thing from science.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Oct 20, 2008 7:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hollinger = ANTI CLIPS

Idiot

Johnny Keyboard /Piano Player, Guitar Player, Violist, Songwriter, & Producer International Artist Development, Publicity, Radio Promotions, Radio/TV Promotions, Rock Radio Show & Mngnt Services. Indie, Anything Piano -Synth, Rocktronica,Industrial, Power Piano Rock, Power Pop, Ambient, Melodic Hard Rock, Glam Metal, Power Metal, & Symphonic Metal.

by Cliptnyte on Oct 21, 2008 3:50 PM PDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Clips Nation!
Start posting about the Clippers »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Eric Gordon was below average last season

Recent FanPosts

Small
bring back James Singleton!
Small
Steve Novak
Small
Bring in Iverson!!!
Small
RUDY FERNANDEZ
Buzzerbeater_small
Anyone on today's forum at noon!?
Small
SEASON TICKET SALES
Small
Beckoning the real Olshey
Karate-kid-photo_small
Remembering 2006
5452_small
Paging John R. Re: Chris Kaman's 07-08 Rebounding Numbers
Small
Questions....

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS

SBNation.com Recent Stories

 LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh of the Miami Heat speak after being introduced to fans during a welcome party at American Airlines Arena on July 9 2010 in Miami Florida.  (Photo by Doug Benc/Getty Images)

How Good Will LeBron James And The Miami Heat Be In 2011? Hint: Very Good

Lorenzen Wright 
(Getty Images) +7 updates

Lorenzen Wright's Body Found In Memphis, Police Conduct Homicide Investigation

Chris Paul LeBron James

'The Miami Model': Why Greed Is Good, And The NBA's Superteam Era Will Be Great

More from SBNation.com >


Managers

Clipsnation_small Steve Perrin