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The Shaun Livingston Watch - Day 584

So, even I'm tired of this at this point.

Shaun Livingston is still not signed.  A few weeks ago it was down to three teams:  Portland, Miami and Minnesota.  He was going to play for one of them.  He said as much.

But Portland passed, and someone told Minnesota he was signing with Miami, but then Miami went to camp without him (and with a full roster) and he was still unsigned.  Of those three, Minnesota is the only one that seems genuinely interested: Blazers' GM Kevin Prichard specifically said he was passing, and Pat Riley of the Heat called it a dead issue.  The Wolves remain interested, but why isn't he in camp with them already?

When Jason Williams unexpectedly retired, and training camps opened with Livingston unsigned, it seemed like an opening for the Clippers.  When Shaun returned to LA on Monday, it seemed like a good sign.

Not so fast.  I guess there's another team in LA.  Our old friend Art Thompson III of the Orange County Register, stripped of his Clipper beat and sucked into the Lakers' gravitational pull, has been fanning the flames of a "Livingston to the Lakers" non-story for months now.  He managed to get Phil Jackson and Derek Fisher to say nice things about the kid this time, but that's about as far as it goes.  AT3 says that Phil Jackson is "interested" in having Livingston on the Lakers' roster.  But here's the direct PJ quote:

This is an injury that could take time but we certainly think that he’s going to recover at some level and become a very competent NBA ball player.  He may not have everything that he had in the past but he still has the knack and the athleticism that’s going to make him a very good ball player. It may take him some time.  Without a doubt, we’ll follow him a lot, as we’re all interested in his health and if he can return to the game.

There's a big chasm between "We'll follow him" and "We want him on the roster."  When you look at what Jackson actually said, it's much more the "Hey, he's a good kid and we wish him the best and it will be interesting to see what happens" kind of thing. 

Meanwhile, the Warriors, who had Shaun in for workouts in August, are apparently still interested as well, according to Janny Hu of the SF Chronicle.  Of course, he'll have to beat out Dan Dickau to make the squad - I guess the back troubles that scared off Avellino of the Italian league aren't that scary to Don Nelson.

Through all of this, as far as I know, the Clippers are STILL the only NBA team to offer Livingston a guaranteed contract this season.  The fact that they also gave him a player option for year two makes it basically the best deal that Livingston and agent Henry Thomas (I loved him in ET; SL phone home!) can possibly hope for: guaranteed money for two years, with the chance to prove himself this season and make a lot more if he does.  I dread the idea of Livingston coming back and playing for an in-state (or in-building) division rival, so maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I just don't see anything happening with the Lakers or Warriors.  Reading PJ's quotes, it's pretty obvious that he's not going to use a roster spot on him this season.  As for the Warriors, I always thought that was a great fit for Shaun - a chance to play now, and a chance to be the starter later in a backcourt with an exciting but undersized two in Monta Ellis.  But why didn't the Warriors make an offer in August?  Why weren't they on the short list with the Blazers and Wolves and Heat?  Livingston and Thomas can surely see the same thing I see - that Shaun had a good chance to be successful in Oakland.  So I don't believe it was the player who eliminated the team - I think it was the other way around.

I'm not sure what to make of the fact that he's not in somebody's camp already.  If I was a GM interested in the guy, I'd sure as shootin' want him in camp from day one, working on his conditioning and getting a look at the knee.  Unless teams are simply writing this season off completely, wouldn't you want as long a look as possible before contemplating game action? 

By the way, if you followed the Minnesota link above, you know what Jerry Zgoda of the Star Tribune thinks is happening:

Shaun Livingston ... likely will sign with Miami once the Heat completes some salary-cap bookkeeping unless the Wolves sweeten their offer.

Of course, that would mean that Riley was lying when he said it was a "dead issue."  Then again, he lied when he said "Stan Van Gundy is the coach." 

So stay tuned.  Who knows what could happen on day 585?

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Malaise

Is it just me, or are things more confusing and not quite as exciting this year? Hoping to start feeling it as we get more info out of camp and the preseason begins. But yeah, the idea of giving Livingston the 14th spot on the roster feels pretty boring at this point.

One thing about the Lakers and their interest. One thing that I am actually vaguely interested in is the Lamar Maggette saga. And it relates to this because today’s version is that they’re trying him out as the PG, with Fisher as the SG and Kobe the SF.

It’s kind of a funny story, because they talk about how Lamar would be able to go inside and post up guards, but then they say that Fisher would guard the opposing PG and LO would be guarding a wing, along with Kobe. Are we stupid? The opponent wouldn’t make the defensive switch as well? LO is not ever going to be such a dynamic PG that, say, Al Thornton wouldn’t be able to guard him as he initiates the offense.

It’s also interesting, and relates to the SL Laker utility conversation, that Fisher is still the starter, and Farmar apparently hasn’t displaced him. Fisher seems a lot like the Cuttino Mobley of PGs at this point—or maybe, if LO is moving around, he’s just Mobley, an aging, tough, lefty SG, and he’s starting in front of $15 million Sasha V, instead of Farmar. I do find it a little surprising that Phil doesn’t seem to have any interest in Liv. When he says they’ll be “following” him it makes it sound a little like he’s saying, we’re the Lakers, we can have him whenever we want, like Gasol.

by citizen zhiv on Oct 2, 2008 11:16 AM PDT   0 recs

Here is the painful truth

Despite the backings of the Clipper Nation behind Shaun….

He SIMPLY doesn’t want to be a Clipper anymore…. To me it sounds like its more than just recovering, more than just money, more than just career, but he simply doesn’t see himself playing for the Clippers now or in the future…..

Sad, but true…why else would he turn down a guaranteed contract?

by clipFanInSD on Oct 2, 2008 4:41 PM PDT   0 recs

Relatively painful

It’s a nuanced position. In theory, Shaun doesn’t want to play for the Clips, because they signed Baron Davis and there’s no clear road for him to be a starter if he has a successful comeback. So it made sense for him to test the waters, and to see if there were any other opportunities. It turned out that there weren’t, virtually every team wants to give their open roster spots to guys who can contribute right away, they may have commitments to their own “projects” and young guys, and they can’t take the risk on Livingston. In the meantime the Clips moved on, and signed Jason Williams.

But when Williams retired, it changed the game. Liv doesn’t want to be a Clipper, but his options have dwindled dramatically since he first turned down the offer.

by citizen zhiv on Oct 2, 2008 9:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Um, no

Liv’s been clear about this for months now that he wasn’t interested in playing for the Clippers. Before BD. Before Williams. Before Williams got hurt. After Williams got hurt.

It doesn’t have anything to do with BD. It has to do with the way the team is coached and managed.

by Jax on Oct 3, 2008 9:05 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Clear As Mud??

Do you have a reference for that? I’ve not read or heard any quotes attributed to Live or his agent that said he wouldn’t sign with the Clips because of their coaching or management.

On 6/12/08 he was quoted in the OCR as saying, “But I anticipate being back with the Clippers, regardless if it’s with the qualifying offer or whatever the deal is. I look forward to being back, because I’d like to stay in LA” and “… I know what I’m going to bring to the table. It’s going to be an asset, and assets aren’t necessarily free.”

On his website 7/11/08 he wrote, “The Clippers have shown interest in bringing me back, but I feel I must evaluate my situation and see what’s best for my future …”

In the first quote, Liv appears to have overestimated his worth. The BD signing and the lack of contract offers from other teams have served as a rude awakening to him this summer. Now he appears to be searching out his best opportunity for playing time and a future payday. That would seem to be Miami right now but not because of Clipper management and coaching.

by ClipCat on Oct 3, 2008 10:09 AM PDT to parent up   1 recs

Wow!

Great work Citizen ClipCat! As I was doing this research, you had already posted the same stuff. Well, played sir! You beat me by 8 minutes.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by ClipperSteve on Oct 3, 2008 10:18 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I saw a quote a few months ago from him in an interview where he said

that he didn’t see the Clippers as a good fit. Myread on that was that he didn’t want to play for the team regardless of anything else. I hadn’t seen your OCR reference before, which I believe was from around the same time as the quote I did see.

I’ll see if I can find it but I know some others around here saw it too.

by Jax on Oct 3, 2008 12:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

For the record, that's not true...

The last time you floated this idea Jax, someone called you on it, and you said you’d look it up. But Livingston told AT3 that he expected to play for the Clippers on June 12, and the Baron Davis signing was announced on July 1, and I sure can’t find any references to him wanting to move on in between – anywhere. The first inkling was on his blog on July 11, after Baron was signed and after Brand was gone – in fact, he references Elton’s departure as a reason he feels he has to look elsewhere.

So stop saying it was ‘before BD’ unless you have a link or something more than you’re personal opinion. And certainly stop saying it in a ‘know-it-all’ sort of way. It does have to do with BD – he wants an opportunity to be an NBA starting point guard. Miami is a much better opportunity for that.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by ClipperSteve on Oct 3, 2008 10:17 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Thank you, CS.

I couldn’t have said it any better.

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Oct 3, 2008 10:35 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Guys, others on here confirmed it but I'll search since you've asked so nicely

I have no personal opinion on this. However, I do have a personal opinion on the coaching and management of this team that’s obviously different than yours. I certainly respect your opinion. I don’t remember that anyone “called me on it” Steve.

by Jax on Oct 3, 2008 12:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Per a HOOPSWORLD article tonight, they claim he’ll be signing with the Heat shortly…

Which makes perfect sense – the team has upside yet they have nobody that is close to a starter at the point guard position. If he recovers well, the starter’s role is all his…

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Oct 2, 2008 9:13 PM PDT   0 recs

Miami

Wade, Beasley, Matrix, Haslem with a healthy SL at point. Potentially scary.

by supac on Oct 2, 2008 9:49 PM PDT   0 recs

A healthy SL

is how far away though? 6 months? A year? 2 Years from now Wade is a free agent. And Marion is a free agent next year. That’s an awfully small window of opportunity….

by Clip Show on Oct 2, 2008 11:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

to side with Jax

Livingston did an interview with Joe McDonald on am570 a couple of months ago. of course I don’t have proof now I think he’s no longer with the station. but he sounded like he wanted nothing to do with the Clippers and he was looking else where.

by FEARTHECLIPS on Oct 3, 2008 1:03 PM PDT   0 recs

Maybe...

I worked hard looking at the timeline earlier today, and ClipCat came up with the same one. There are no comments on this site or Clipper message boards even implying that Shaun would like to play elsewhere until that July 11 blog post – and even that one was pretty mild. There were some articles in Peoria papers in early August where he said he didn’t think the Clippers style suited him. Other than that… (And of course it’s Oct. 3 today, and Baron signed 7/1 – so in order for the Joe McDonald interview to be relevant it would have to be from more than 3 months ago – no ‘a couple’ – but now I’m picking nits.)

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by ClipperSteve on Oct 3, 2008 1:14 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yet you continue posting

Liv didn’t think the Clips were a good fit anymore after BD got signed. The timeline of all the interviews and quotes fit this hypothesis. Only you can somehow tie this to coaching and management. Seriously unbelievable, and it’s getting pretty annoying.

I’m sure you’ll have an “inside source” to back you up on this. Whatever.

by supac on Oct 5, 2008 12:38 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

We won't know the entire reason but....

The truth is…..Clips gave Liv a pretty darn good offer considering his situation…its a win-win situation for both, yet Liv turned it down…

We can speculate if its management, franchise, karma, or whatever….the sad fact is, he didn’t accept the Clips best offer on the table. To me that means he doesn’t want to be a Clipper anymore. Personally, I don’t think its management or the coach. Liv thrived under Livingston’s guidance….

Maybe he’s just trying to disassociate with him from the Clips because he’s been injury-prone with them. Maybe he’s thinking, new team…new start…..reestablish his image….dunno…

But fact is fact….he turned down the Clips offer.

by clipFanInSD on Oct 3, 2008 2:25 PM PDT   0 recs

woops...I meant...

Liv thrived under *Dunleavy’s" guidance…. :)

by clipFanInSD on Oct 3, 2008 2:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

speculate?

to me it’s obvious that he wants no part of the Clippers. for what ever reason these guys who think there so good are all running from Dunleavy. but I love him as a coach. besides the bone head play of putting Ewing in to cost us the finals in the west. but it’s been leaps and bounds better than coach Bibby. I was ready to buy a rifle and take Bibby out! long live MD.

by FEARTHECLIPS on Oct 3, 2008 3:32 PM PDT   0 recs

Bibby?

What does Bibby got to do with this? I don’t get the connection….

In any case, I agree with you that Dunleavy is the best coach to have ever coached and led the Clippers despite their highs and lows. I also like his patience and determination given all the knock that he’s received coaching them…..can’t you think of any coach that decided to stick with the Clippers as long as Dunleavy has?

Going back to Liv….maybe we should just ASK him why he turned down the guaranteed offer?

by clipFanInSD on Oct 3, 2008 4:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

who cares

im over sean livingston. We paid him 1.5 years to sit on his ass and he repays us with holding out for money.

by andrewexd on Oct 5, 2008 10:26 PM PDT   0 recs

Bibby

I only bring up Bibby because he was the worst coach I have ever seen and time and time again his decisions in the games would kill me. I’m just still bitter. I think fans should remember what we had before they criticize our beloved Coach Mike D.

by FEARTHECLIPS on Oct 7, 2008 8:09 AM PDT   0 recs

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