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Around SBN: My First Fight: Diego Sanchez

An Archrival (Laker) Question

As you know I'm half-following the Lamar Odom situation over in Lakerland.  Following it, as in, I hear the Loose Cannons talk about it on the radio for the 5 minutes I'm in my car, and read what's in the LATimes, stuff like that.  Towards the end of the comments of my previous post, which originally compared Odom's current status to the Maggette 06-07 disaster, CS and I agreed that it seems certain that Odom won't be a Laker next year.  But we've been wrong before.  Many times.  About all kinds of things.  You get my point.

So the current Loose Cannon thinking is something like this:  make Odom the Magic Johnson-style point guard, Kobe is his backcourt mate, and with Bynum and Gasol you have a glorious three year run "in Kobe's prime."  They're saying, don't be cheap, you're going to give Bynum a big contract, and Odom will be unhappy all year if he doesn't know what's going to happen, so pay him too!  Just spend the money--you'll win championships, you've raised the high ticket prices and are sold out, and the player salaries are chump change.  You don't want to spend money on bad contracts, but these are good contracts, that will make the team a dynasty, and you'll get your money back.

One part of this is that everybody thought that Lamar was getting paid 14 million this season, when it turns out he's getting 11 million.  So the line is, give him his 11 million, give him 12.  Just pay the money.  Pay the tax. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like there are a couple of problems here.  And I have some questions.  I'll add that this isn't just Laker-hating, although that's part of it, but part is competiton in the division and the conference and trying to have some idea of what the Clippers are up against. I don't know the hard specifics, and maybe some member of our braintrust will find it worthwhile to break all of this down.

So first, there's Bynum and his extension.  Do they even need to extend him this year?  Is he an RFA in 09-10?  Is this the same as the 06 Kaman timing, where he plays the coming season under the old deal and then the next under the new one?

The Bynum numbers that I think I saw were 5 yrs/85 mil--not sure if that was his or theirs.  5yrs/15per is 75mil (nice number, eh EB? not enough I guess).  85 sounds about right for an extension for Bynum, it's a bit of a risk, but he might be the kind of guy that other teams would pay to build a franchise around, or at least make one of their top two players.  And he could be a UFA in 2010 and part of the capspace follies there.

So let's say they do that, and so in 09-10 it's 23+ for Kobe, 16+ for Gasol, and 14-16 for Bynum in a back-loaded deal.  They have contract commitments with Radman, Walton, and Vujacic, and money down for Fisher in 09-10.  It's worth remembering, that if I'm Andrew Bynum's agent, I'm not sure at all that I want the extension--let's say I'm David Falk, and I care as much about the Lakers needs as I do about the Clippers: my goal is to make my client (and me) the most money.  Play this year, force the issue.

This sets up Lamar and his goals.  What is Lamar worth?  If Lamar keeps smiling, plays hard, he would seem to be a pretty valuable UFA next year.  Maggette just got 50 million for 5 years.  Brand just got 85.  Where would Lamar be a good fit?  Who would want him--and who would have the money to pay him?  He's going to be 29 years old, and this is an important contract for him.  He's already had a big contract, but I'm sure he would like another one.  He doesn't want a 3 year deal; he wants a 5 year deal.

So let's say the number is 60 million, that's 12 million a year.  Some one was saying "give him 13 million a year!" on the show today, but then we move past Baron Davis and head towards Brand--which might be his value, I don't know.

Here's the part I don't know.  If the Lakers sign Bynum, they would already be into the luxury tax.  So would ALL of that money be paid in luxury tax:  that is, if the Lakers sign Odom for 12 million a year, are they really paying 24 million a year for him--the same as they're paying for Kobe?

Let's not forget that Kobe also wants to get paid, speaking of extensions.  He has a player option at the beginning of next year, I think.  (Didn't Brand, Maggette, and Baron Davis have player options?  Just saying.)  That's a big flashing extension sign if I've ever seen one.

The Cannons (and Sonny Vaccaro) were having a fine time throwing around Jerry Buss' money.  It really seems, however, like signing both Bynum and Odom--and Kobe--isn't an option.

One more note:  Steve Hartman, more cynical in the beginning (or when I came in) is saying that the Lakers should trade Odom, rather than letting him walk for nothing at the end of the year.  But isn't that naive and cavalier with Dr. Buss' millions as well?  They'd be trading 11 million (an expiring contract--and a good player, not Kwame Brown) to get back 11 million that they can't afford to spend.  They would have to trade him for another expiring contract (and a lesser player) plus perhaps a young player that they wouldn't have to pay. Isn't that just another greedy idea (other teams and the league make deals that benefit the Lakers, rather than themselves) that doesn't make sense?  In the end, when you got Pau Gasol--for Kwame Brown's expiring contract; that is, nothing--you were "trading" away the ability to resign Lamar Odom.  Be happy with that.  It's a great deal.  Or don't sign Bynum.  But some choices have to be made, no?  You don't get it all.          

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The big question

Let’s get to the main vein here. The question that first needs to be answered is…

Does the luxury tax really matter to the Lakers? Of the big 3 or so franchises they are way up. I just find it hard to believe they aren’t profitable enough to operate in the tax situation. Maybe not at re-Knick-ulous levels, but at least into it.

I mean DTS seems comfortable creeping right up to the tax anymore. The Lakers don’t make enough money over the Clippers to pay it when it will mean they win 60 games? I’m not buying it.

If they can operate in the tax and they win it all this year, which would seem to make it easier to operate from within the tax, they probably can get it all…

The “how much is Lamar making” thing is a bit of a red herring. Yes, his paychecks will only total 11M-ish this year, but his cap figure is his salary plus the trade bonus he recieved for coming over from Miami spread across the length of the contract. So his cap/tax number reflects the higher reported number, even though the team just happened to pay the cash upfront. At any rate, none of that matters for his next contract since he would be a Bird free agent.

Feelin’ you!

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Oct 8, 2008 8:29 PM PDT reply actions  

LO: Get me 75 and I'm in

Good to have you responding to the discussion. His cap figure doesn’t really matter, since we’re talking about next year and a new contract for him. He’s a Bird free agent, which means that they can pay him anything they want to, thus, potentially, more than anyone else might be able to pay him based on the other teams’ cap situation. But they’re still paying the tax.

So I’m still curious about a few things: say they pay him 12 mil for 5 years. Are they effectively paying his 24 mil per year. (Theoretically, they could get out of the tax if one of their other guys leaves, so they might not be paying 24 mil if Gasol goes in at the end of his deal in 2011.) I guess the concept/question is about “an entire contract” that is subject to the tax.

Bringing up the Knicks is a sobering point. In this context it’s not that they piled up bad contracts; it’s that their revenues and financial backing made it worthwhile to have a “marquee players first/tax is meaningless” strategy. But even at their worst, did the Knicks’ payroll approach the level of Kobe-Gasol-Bynum-Odom, while still fielding a team, including some guys with not great contracts?

My guess is that the Lakers are quite capable of operating within the tax situation, but that’s just a matter of taking care of Bynum, keeping their deals (including Gasol), filling out the roster, and paying Kobe. Kobe wants to make sure that he’s taken care of first, and I think that the Lakers will readily go into the tax to give Kobe an extension.

But signing Bynum and extending Lamar puts them in the “re-Knick-ulous” level, doesn’t it?

Let’s not forget that they didn’t match on Turiaf. Ariza’s deal will be up next year, and he could play very well this year and be a much more affordable option compared to Lamar—and let’s remember that they’re “stuck” with Radman and Walton. And they signed Vujacic and paid him like a rotation player, not as if they thought that Kobe-Lamar was their future backcourt, but who knows. The other guy is Farmar. The better he is, the more he’s going to cost too, and Fisher will probably be done after 09-10. These guys are just the pieces for “fielding a team,” but they could all present tax issues.

I guess it’s about “operating within the tax” and “re-Knick-ulous” levels. Where do you draw the line? Wouldn’t they have paid Turiaf if it didn’t matter? Yes, first they have to make the pieces fit and see if they can win a championship. It’s a set of dominoes, too, because they may be making the decision on extending Bynum before that.

by citizen zhiv on Oct 8, 2008 10:19 PM PDT reply actions  

Re-Knick-ulous

To get precise, the Knicks topped out at $126.6M in 05-06. That was even a spike, but they have operated in that 100M range for quite some time. The Mavs never made it quite that to the Knick’s high score, but they also have broken the $90M barrier a few times and $100M last season.

Bynum is signed for next year as a rookie scale, so his extension now would be like Kaman’s. He got the payday but he still had his lackluster 06-07 campaign under his rookie contract if memory serves. Farmar would be in a similar situation. A problem, but not an immediate situation that demands attention. Assuming Farmar gets a nice bump in 10-11, it would still be only mostly taking Fisher’s contract slot.

So if they bring Lamar back at $12M, they are scratching $80M or so next season. If Bynum gets his $12M too then we are looking at $90M-ish by 2 years hence, but then the year after that Kobe and Gasol would be ready to come off the books so you are only eating it for one year and you have a chance to completely retool.

Letting Turiaf walk given the money offered keeps them out of the record books. It matters at that level, for sure. I’m not saying money doesn’t matter, but they are pretty far from where we have seen NBA franchises operate.

Don’t let those Loose Cannons tell anyone otherwise. If they choose to not re-sign Lamar or if they let him walk without a trade for similar salary, thats the Lakers being cheap. I don’t see anything here way out of economic proportion forcing their hand. And if the product doesn’t work on the court, they can blow it all up soon enough. And you know those sweetheart trades will be waiting whenever they choose to do it.

Or think about this, all those veterans who want to hop on board for a ring you structure their deals so that Summer of 2011 rolls around and you have Odom, Bynum, Farmar and CAP SPACE if you let Kobe and Gasol walk. Oh, and you’re the Lakers. You get the pick of the litter.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Oct 9, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I Still Say Lamar is Gone

The luxury tax money is one thing. Yes, the Lakers can afford it. Whether they want to is another question. If it’s strictly an ROI question, those seats are pretty much going to sell anyway, with or without Lamar. So that extra $12M in luxury tax isn’t really giving you the return that your other money is. So that’s one thing.

But I also think that teams (maybe out of justifying miserly ways) tend to think that it’s better to let young blood play bigger roles moving forward. Sure, Bynum is penciled in there. But what about Farmar? And Ariza? And Sasha? And even Sun Yue? Letting Lamar walk frees up money, and it frees up minutes. He’s the odd man out, and they won’t keep him, no matter how much the Loose Cannons want to spend Buss’ money.

Oh, and the ‘trade him so you don’t lose him for nothing’ thing is just stupid. Nothing is exactly what they want for him.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Oct 8, 2008 11:01 PM PDT reply actions  

Hope you're right

It sound like the extra 12 million in tax per year is affordable.

So why not just pay ‘em all? Everybody on your roster is being paid double—Give Ariza 20/40 million, Farmar 30/60, and you’re good—and all of Kobe’s extension upgrade is at the higher rate too. I just don’t think it’s doable, sustainable, or reasonable.

I don’t know that it’s just that it frees up minutes—although that’s important, because there’s some question of just how much Odom can really contribute with this roster, as opposed to the guys who can shoot (Vujacic, Radman) or defend (Ariza)—as it does mean that you can live in the real world of salaries and giving money to Ariza and Farmar. Maybe. The Lakers may not be all that, and may not really be able to spend on anybody besides Kobe, Bynum and Gasol (and Radman. Walton, and Vujacic).

by citizen zhiv on Oct 8, 2008 11:30 PM PDT reply actions  

Good First Impression

Anyone else feeling this first half?

by ghost_ride on Oct 9, 2008 8:19 PM PDT reply actions  

They would be dumb to let him walk for nothing

At the very least they can package him for a young prospect on the rookie scale and some other prospects. Once a team is over the salary cap they are much more limited in making moves. If the Lakers want to really utilize this 5 year window they have, then they should keep their assets. Odom is worth 11-12 million per year and he’ll have value 3 years from now even if his game declines because he’ll provide salary cap relief.

I think Ariza is a fine prospect but his outside shot needs serious work and he’s a fringe rotation player right now. To me he’s a updated version of Devean George but with less range on his J.

Oh no! We suck again - Idiot from The Waterboy

http://ohnowesuckagain.ytmnd.com/

by ClipperChuck on Oct 9, 2008 11:25 PM PDT reply actions  

Ariza

did look good I liked how much he hustled even though he wasn’t hitting all his shots.

by bestclipfan on Oct 10, 2008 1:49 PM PDT reply actions  

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