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Clippers vs. Spurs - Game Preview and Open Thread

San Antonio Spurs at Los Angeles Clippers, Nov 17, 2008 7:30 PM PST


 
Lac1_70_medium
vs.
 
 
Sas_70_medium
1-8 4-5
Staples Center
November 17, 2008 - 7:30 PM
TV: FSN West, NBA-TV
Probable starters:
Baron Davis
PG George Hill
Cuttino Mobley
SG Roger Mason
Al Thornton SF Ime Udoka
Marcus Camby
PF Tim Duncan
Chris Kaman
C Fabricio Oberto

The Big Picture:

Pick your cliche.  The wheels are coming off.  The ship is sinking.  The car has gone into the ditch.  However you choose to describe it, it ain't good for the Clippers right now.  The team is 1-8, and were it not for the Thunder (the ultimate rebuilding team whose three leading scorers are two second year players and a rookie) they'd have the worst record in the NBA.  As it happens, they do have the worst point differential, by a pretty wide margin, at minus 13.9 points per game.  But that's what 6 double digits losses in your first nine games will do for you.  The Clippers so far have proven to be pretty bad at just about every aspect of the game.  They can't shoot (41.1%, 29th in the league out of 30 teams); they don't get to the line (29th in free throws made); they can't defend (24th in field percentage allowed).  But rebounding is perhaps the most disconcerting area of inexpertise.  They have yet to outrebound an opponent, despite the presence of two supposedly elite big men. They are 29th in rebounds allowed, 29th in offensive rebounds allowed, and dead last in rebounding margin at minus 8 per game.  It's worth noting that rebounding and defense are generally (and not inaccurately) thought of as being greatly impacted by things like hustle and desire.  Enough said.

The Antagonist:

The Spurs have problems of their own.  Take a glance at the probable starters above.  Only the most hard core NBA fans even know who three of those guys are - the casual fan would have no clue about anyone other than Tim Duncan.  Even the rookie (George Hill) is an obscure rookie from a mid-major school (IUPUI).  The Spurs are a team built around three stars and an ever-changing cast of role-players.  The trouble is, two of the three stars are hurt (Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker) and the role-players are becoming ever more obscure.  Still, they've managed to win two straight games with this makeshift lineup, and you have to figure that Gregg Popovich is relatively happy to be 4-5 right now.  Why is it that the good teams seem to be able to execute a game plan even when key players are hurt?  Could it have something to do with coaching?  

The Subplots

  • Who are these guys?  Gregg Popovich benched the 37 year old Bruce Bowen a couple of games ago, presumably because they can't afford to start a non-scorer on such an offensively-challenged team with both Parker and Manu out.  (How many times have we said around here that Quinton Ross is an effective player on a good team, but useless on a bad team?)  That leaves Duncan (and a couple of guys on the bench like Michael Finley and Kurt Thomas) as the only household names on the Spurs - a team that won the NBA title two seasons ago.  Hill is a rookie from the most unwieldy university in all of Division I (Indiana University - Purdue University - Indianapolis), Mason was rescued from the European leagues by the Wizards last year before signing with the Spurs, and Udoka made his way from the D-League to Portland to the San Antonio.  Even I'm not sure who Anthony Tolliver is.  But rest assured -  Popovich will have them all playing defense, or they won't be on the court.
  • Gut check time.  Actually, it's long overdue.  But the Clippers have got to figure out if they've got any heart or not.  In the last 8 quarters, they've played about 6 minutes of basketball as if they gave a damn.  The Spurs will destroy them if they continue to play passionless ball, no matter who is wearing the black and silver uniform.
  • A stable full of gift horses.  The Clippers have squandered opportunites to beat the the Nuggets without Carmelo, the Jazz without Deron Williams, the Kings without Kevin Martin and the Warriors without Monta Ellis and Al Harrington.  Now come the Spurs, missing Manu and Parker, on the second game of road back-to-backs.  It's amazing how many favorable breaks the Clippers have gotten so far this season.  And yet they are 1-8.
  • The biggest problem.  No one is playing very well for the Clippers.  Poor rebounding and lousy defense are usually team efforts.  Baron isn't taking charge.  Thornton has had two abysmal shooting games in a row where he's constantly settled for jump shots while killing any semblance of offensive flow as soon as he gets the ball.  But make no mistake - Chris Kaman is the biggest culprit in the last two games.  Don't be fooled by his double-double against the Warriors.  He fumbled another 10 or so rebounds out of bounds, and he gave up 16 rebounds to his counter part.  And every time he misses a bunny it's demoralizing to a team that has very little morale left.  It's tempting to say, "Give up on the guy, he's never going to get it; he'll just show flashes, but never put it together."  But he DID put it together - for about 50 games at the beginning of last season before getting hurt.  That's what's so frustrating.
  • The bright spot.  About the only bright spot of the last two games has been Eric Gordon.  He hasn't made every shot by any means, but his offensive talent is plain to see.  More importantly, he's showing real signs of being a terrific perimeter defender.  When no one else was playing any defense at all Saturday, he was stealing the ball and blocking shots.  He's got incredibly quick hands.

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Kaman & Thornton

Not only are rebounds bouncing off his mitts, but so are well-placed passes from his teammates, which is also leading them to lose confidence in their big man.

Also, we often talk about how Kaman struggles against big centers like Yao & Shaq. But isn’t Kaman limited against teams that play small-ball, too? So if he can’t go up against the big centers, and he is not a good matchup for the small centers, what exactly is he good for?

The sad thing is that his deficiencies are all mental. He has the physical skills. He just needs to pull his head out.

Now about Al. The Clippers need more than the 2 rebounds he hauled in against GSW. That just won’t cut it.

Also, the dude needs to learn how to pass it back out. Either take it to the hole, or take a good shot. No more settling for the lazy jumper (which, I confess, he does sometimes make).

The other 3 starters are pretty much doing their jobs. Camby is scoring a bit more than I expected. Cat is playing like Cat. And Baron is doing what he can, trying to make lemonade out of his coach’s lemon offense.

Ricky Davis and Tim Thomas should only be used when the Clippers are trailing and need some quick offense. They are pretty useless on D (with Thomas being the worse of the two).

I would like to see Gordon as the 6th man, and Skinner or Paul Davis as the first big off the bench.

I still think the talent level is high enough to eventually right the ship. But as Steve said, the desire has to be there.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Nov 17, 2008 6:39 AM PST reply actions  

"Ricky Davis and Tim Thomas should only be used when the Clippers are trailing and need some quick offense. They are pretty useless on D (with Thomas being the worse of the two)."

…. maybe that is why they are always in the game…we are always trailing.

…sorry, I’m just really frustrated, I’ll get out of this funk soon enough.

by Newton Pham on Nov 17, 2008 10:43 AM PST up reply actions  

Seeing how we lost to the warriors

and every team w/ Key injuries

CLippers come out flat and lose by 33pts.

by Qlippers on Nov 17, 2008 7:43 AM PST reply actions  

Which no name player...

Any ideas which no-name player will light us up this time? *roll eyes

I’m thinking Roger Mason.

He scores 25 this game.

by cliptakular on Nov 17, 2008 9:32 AM PST reply actions  

George Hill for 40

Morrow couldn’t quite light us up for 40 and got 37, I think George is on a mission to outdo him. Hill has probably had us circled on his calendar for days and couldn’t sleep last night, giddy at the prospects of becoming the next Clipper Killer to land on the front page of ESPN and Yahoo news.

by Newton Pham on Nov 17, 2008 10:41 AM PST reply actions  

Matt Bonner

Goes for 23 pts, 16 rebs and 2 blocks.

Better Shooting percentage than Kaman

by Qlippers on Nov 17, 2008 10:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Playing w/ heart

You said it Steve! They are not playing w/ any signs of desire. If any of the coaches are reading this, please please please!!! instill some desire into the hearts of these clippers. The fans so want to get behind their team. Light a fire under Kaman and his inflated contract. Make BD happy so that he will come out w/ that defensive intensity he showed in the first game against the Lakers (first qtr). Find some way for ricky davis and TT to contribute to the team.
If they don’t play defense, they shouldn’t play!!!! Let’s bring home a win tonight!!!

by ClipperHuy on Nov 17, 2008 10:53 AM PST reply actions  

I'm really dreading this game.

These games are so painful. At least the Spurs don’t have that many fans outside of Texas, so it’s not likely we’ll hear “George MASON!” chants like we did Anthony friggin Morrow.

by madglove on Nov 17, 2008 11:12 AM PST reply actions  

Haha

Isn’t George Mason a school? I think a guy named Roger Mason plays for the Spurs… :)

by moKi on Nov 17, 2008 1:36 PM PST up reply actions  

George Hill plus Roger Mason...

equals George Mason. See, this is how nameless the Spurs are right now. Mason and Hill will probably each go for career highs.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 17, 2008 1:40 PM PST up reply actions  

haha Oops!

Yea I meant both of them will have such good games that they’ll chant them together! haha

by madglove on Nov 17, 2008 4:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Tough Times

Haven’t really seen this anywhere, but has anybody mentioned that maybe the Clippers miss Elton Brand a little bit?

Just a question. Hard to calculate after last year, of course.

Stepping back and looking at the entire equation, you can say that after Brand was hurt in July 07, the Clippers have been trying to plug the hole, and what we’ve seen more than anything else is a hearty dose of Tim Thomas. Paul Davis got hurt and we got to see a lot of Josh Powell and even the glorious Fazeke—that’s one of the problems with the current death march, by the way: there’s not even any comic relief—and now we have the slow, injury-plagued start of Marcus Camby, and who said that he was going to be effective as a PF anyway (um, a lot of us, actually, starting with me)?

Club Optimism has been officially shut down after the last two games, and the trick now is to figure out what the Clips might be playing for. Obviously, the goal is to get a victory and put together a few good games, and then work from there. The training camp/preseason/early schedule problem is always going to be there, and now the question is how the team can play well, play hard, and achieve some of its potential, even as the stakes are rapidly fading away. It may take two or three more weeks or even longer for things to get worked out, and by that time the Clips will be in miserable shape, which has got to have an effect on things. They may just be really bad for a very long time.

by citizen zhiv on Nov 17, 2008 11:39 AM PST reply actions  

That's the issue....

With Brand you had someone reliable down low you could throw it to, he’d catch the ball and either put it in the hole or kick it out. Guys had to focus on him and double.

What you have now is….guys being afraid to throw it in because who knows what you are going to get? Mr. Flippy? Bumbling the ball out of bounds? How about an awkward left handed reverse layup the bounces off the backboard and off the rim? Maybe a missed wide open dunk or two? So what do we have?

Guys passing it along the parameter. Maybe trying to take it in themselves and finding it tough and eventually tossing up a tough shot. How about forget the ball movement and just do an iso play?

I guess I do miss the man who we shall not name.

by Newton Pham on Nov 17, 2008 12:20 PM PST up reply actions  

I was wondering where Zhiv was

Hard to be the head of Club Optimism right now, I know.

The trajectory since May 2006 is bizarre and painful. The dysfunctional 06-07 club seemingly underachieved… and still won 40 games and was in the playoff race to the final week. Last season was completely lost, but we gave everyone, especially the Coach, a get out of jail free card because of the injuries.

Now, talented roster, 1-8, no defense, no effort. Madglove mentioned Bill Fitch the other day, but Fitch’s teams played HARD! Harold Ellis baby. Give me Harold Ellis about now.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 17, 2008 12:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't miss Brand

But the Clippers sure do. Are Maggette and Thornton the same stat wise? Where’s the guy who comes up with all the comparison numbers? Haha.

I say we go football style and let Dunleavy just coach defense. Get Norm Chow for offense.

by moKi on Nov 17, 2008 1:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Good Point

I think it’s pretty safe to say Thornton hasn’t reached Maggette’s level, at least not yet. They are similar players on the defensive end, and on offense Thornton forces more shots than Maggette did, he can’t drive like Maggette (both finishing & getting to the line), and even FT% Maggette is superior.

Hopefully this all changes, and sooner than later.

by ghost_ride on Nov 17, 2008 5:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah

It has been an interesting couple of weeks. Significant retooling going on.

It seems like everything is going along pretty well at ClipsNation, all things considered. A little freaking out, a lot of profound disappointment, everybody trying to understand as they watch the slow-motion train wreck.

I like the work that KA is doing over at Clipperblog too. Deep analysis of “the best 1-8 team in basketball.”

For now, more Eric Gordon. More Paul Davis, I guess, but in another couple of weeks we could be calling for DeAndre Jordan.

Or how about letting Baron Davis be the player-coach for a game?

by citizen zhiv on Nov 17, 2008 1:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Baron player-coach...

funny… the new Lenny Wilkens. Those were the days.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 17, 2008 2:05 PM PST up reply actions  

They don't miss Maggs at all

The guy is just another ball stopper/shot jacker. It’s been no different in GSW. What does Maggs bring that we don’t have right now? Maybe better FT shooting. At his salary, forget it.

We obviously miss EB but there’s nothing that can be done about that. The plan/dream was for Baron and EB to play together. Sure we got Falked, but nobody can argue that we didn’t recover about as well as any team losing its best player can.

This nightmare goes deeper than just losing EB though.

by madglove on Nov 17, 2008 4:44 PM PST reply actions  

I take offense that I am lumped in with him here

I have been reasonable and patient and he has done nothing but intentionally overstate and mistate my position.

Also, I am unclear why you have mentioned me here since I have not commented on this thread. This is the danger of allowing Jax around I suppose.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Nov 17, 2008 4:52 PM PST up reply actions  

And I of course take offense that I was lumped in with John R

No one has overstated his position. Would be difficult to do since he’s just exclaimed in another thread that BD is “actively sabotaging” the Clippers.

In all seriousness, there’s nothing wrong with comparing this year’s team to years past.

by Jax on Nov 17, 2008 5:03 PM PST up reply actions  

3 Starters/ Key Players Remain Unchanged

Kaman, Thornton, Mobley

Thornton is hopefully only a shell of what he will be, but who knows.

Kaman looks to be plateauing, and Mobley on the decline. So call these three a wash.

You put in BD, Camby, + a top draft pick and you’d expect some big time improvement. There will be some, and there is some at least on paper, but when BD’s got to play w/ those same 3 starters from last year, and since Kaman & Camby do a lot of the same things, what does that leave? Better guard play + Eric Gordon.

by ghost_ride on Nov 17, 2008 5:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Game is starting....listening on radio

Another slow start…but Kaman seems to be active.

I love LAC.

by oasisman on Nov 17, 2008 7:48 PM PST reply actions  

I don't have cable

I can’t remember what site it was that let you watch the game over the internet….anyone have any ideas?

by Newton Pham on Nov 17, 2008 7:51 PM PST reply actions  

stagnant ball movement damn

by civicdude590 on Nov 17, 2008 9:09 PM PST reply actions  

do i dare watch the 4th qtr!?

"Duck, Crab. Crab, Duck"
Roger Sterling - Mad Men

by Lawler's Law on Nov 17, 2008 9:20 PM PST reply actions  

Another game...

Wow, what a man Roger Mason. Its safe to say the Clips slightly over-payed for Baron Davis. He’s a “quantity shooter” and his defense hasn’t been stopping anyone.

I love LAC.

by oasisman on Nov 17, 2008 9:22 PM PST reply actions  

lol

as a warriors fan i feel bad for you guys.. its clear Baron Davis is declining rapidly… these are the shots he took when he was tired at the end of the season and when Nellie gave him no rest.

by saintdee on Nov 17, 2008 9:37 PM PST reply actions  

This is horrible to watch. We fought for the rebound against ourselves and lost it out of bounds with 3 minutes left….lol.

by Newton Pham on Nov 17, 2008 9:38 PM PST reply actions  

wow

clippers just can not catch a break. i must admit this was a very lol game.

by saintdee on Nov 17, 2008 9:50 PM PST reply actions  

novak would have made it....

…does BD realize his 3pt % is like 25% for the season?

by Newton Pham on Nov 17, 2008 9:58 PM PST reply actions  

he

has the warriors mentality. Nellie gave him the confidence to shoot to his heart’s content .

by saintdee on Nov 17, 2008 9:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Novak tottally missed the screen against Vaughn

by Qlippers on Nov 17, 2008 10:04 PM PST reply actions  

Normally

I would have said the remedy is the east. I think we will go 1 and what ever on the road trip

We SUCK. The Thunder will have a feel day on Wednesday. Westbrook will lightup Baron

by Qlippers on Nov 17, 2008 10:11 PM PST reply actions  

tough lost...BD should have been

the set up man on the last play…lousy pass to RDavis after the throw in…I would have felt better about the loss if Novak took the last shot…

"Duck, Crab. Crab, Duck"
Roger Sterling - Mad Men

by Lawler's Law on Nov 17, 2008 10:26 PM PST reply actions  

RDavis is non-existant on both ends of the floor...

it’s enough…his d-can’t be as bad as RDavis’

"Duck, Crab. Crab, Duck"
Roger Sterling - Mad Men

by Lawler's Law on Nov 17, 2008 10:28 PM PST reply actions  

Agreed...last play was a classic

I thought Dunleavy was going to pull a Gene Hackman and play with 4….sadly we were just discombobulated.

by MichaelCage on Nov 17, 2008 11:21 PM PST up reply actions  

someone's gotta ask (maybe Ramona)

what happened on that play? How, on the final play of the game, with 4 assistant coaches, 8 other suited up guys, not know that you need one!? that’s the ultimate and show our coach’s ineptness…

"Duck, Crab. Crab, Duck"
Roger Sterling - Mad Men

by Lawler's Law on Nov 17, 2008 11:54 PM PST reply actions  

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