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Comtemplations on the Eve of the Sixers Showdown

The last time I posted specifically about the Elton Brand fiasco was July 10th - two days after he announced his intention to sign with the Sixers.  I always assumed I'd re-address the subject when there was more information, and to be sure I've made comments here and there about it.  But by and large, when I look at what I wrote back in July, I just don't have that much more to say.  I still feel pretty much the same.

Which is interesting.  For one thing, I wrote that post before MDsr went on his press tour.  Before we knew about the text messages, for instance.  But everything we've subsequently learned fits pretty well with my view at the time.  For instance:

Did this really blow up over an Early Termination Option?  This is almost unfathomable (and for the record, I don't believe it).  The Clippers had already given Brand an ETO in the prior contract.  An ETO after year 4 of a 5 year contract for a 29 year old, quite frankly, is in the interest of the team.  You want to end that contract when you're 33?  Um, OK.  If the Clippers really said no when they asked for this, it's one of the all time mistakes.

That very day on the radio, we learned that Brand had indeed asked for an ETO, and that MDsr had responded the next morning saying that it was no problem.  Makes sense - as I wondered at the time, why would it be?  This was the infamous text message that remained unanswered, as Brand and Falk went into 'radio silence'.  It must be stated that all of these 'facts' are just MDsr's side of the story.  He could be lying.  I haven't seen the text messages myself - though I know people who have.  But it doesn't seem like he's lying.  For one thing, Brand has never denied MDsr's version of events.  He's just ignored it, at times referring to some grand disrespect.  But the only specific he's ever given was the ETO - and that never rang true, and indeed apparently wasn't.

There have been a few interesting pieces of information in the last few days: Brand calling MDsr to tell him about Baron, MDsr telling Brand that he had $27M to split between them.  It all dovetails nicely with the version of events we've long since accepted: Brand had every intention of signing with the Clippers until something changed around July 3.  And you know what?  It's fine.  He's allowed to change his mind.  But I do think you need to be an adult about it.

This idea that Brand has spoken with the Clippers assistant coaches and the players, but not spoken to Dunleavy - with whom he was "as good as player and coach could be" - is just ludicrous.  Because there's nothing to talk about?  Really?  First of all, what exactly does he have to talk about with Jim Eyen?  More importantly, it seems to me there is something to talk about.  "Hey coach, yeah, it's me, EB.  Um, yeah, sorry about screwing you back in July."  You could talk about that.  That might fill a phone call or two.

David Falk's explanation in the aftermath went something like this:  yes, Elton had an agreement with the Clippers, and that's the problem.  Dunleavy should have known better than to be talking directly to a player.  Only the agent can make the deal.  Interestingly, as opposed to just stepping in and finishing the negotiation, Falk essentially blackballed Dunleavy for having breached protocol - he told Brand to turn off his cell phone, and he himself stopped talking to the Clippers.  I have to say, it seems like a strange way to serve your client - to break off all communications with one of the very few entities bidding for his services. 

Technically, perhaps Falk is right.  Perhaps it was some legal faux pas for Dunleavy to talk to Brand.  Of course, it seems that Brand initiated the conversations - what was MDsr supposed to do?  Stick his fingers in his ears and run away humming loudly to himself?  But more to the point, give me a break.  Elton Brand is a grown man - if he wants to have a conversation with his coach of seven years, he can do that.  And if David Falk says, "Elton you shouldn't have done that.  Give me your phone."  Elton should say "Excuse me?  Close the deal a-hole, and stop treating me like a baby or I'll get a new agent."  Talk about being disrespected... give me your phone?  Wow.

As I said, Elton has the right to change his mind and what's done is done.  It's hard to know what exactly this does to his reputation.  He was one of the squeaky-cleanest stars in the NBA, and it's pretty difficult to reconcile that with this betrayal.  And we've got the quotes - "I'm not a quitter."  "I want to be a Clipper."  "Get me BD and $75M and I'm in."  But in the end, will anyone outside of Clips Nation care?  Does anyone outside of Cleveland think badly of Carlos Boozer?  Or even remember what happened?  Let's face it, Boozer became an All Star and went to the Conference Finals after he lied to a blind guy and bolted for Utah.  The number of people who idolize Carlos Boozer is certainly much greater today than it was when he was in Cleveland.  Because everyone loves a winner.  Brand will get more exposure, more All Star appearances and possibly more wins playing in Philadelphia.  He'll probably gain fans across the east coast, not just in Philly, who will get to see him play a lot more now.  And he didn't even lose much of LA - Laker fans are probably glad he's gone.  In fact, everywhere else in the NBA, there's no doubt a general feeling of "The Clippers must have done something to screw that up.  Brand's such a nice guy, and the Clippers are just a bunch of losers."

So let's face it, Brand really won't suffer for this.  He won't be considered quite the eagle scout he was before.  But he's still a model citizen by the standards of NBA basketball players.  And he's still a hell of a ball player.

But it doesn't change what happened.

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always interesting reading you Steve

didn’t know many of the things you report, always good to have other perspective on facst. it will be a nice game…

FYI Brand is starting to piss off many Sixers fans (not me, at least not yet), that think he’s not the player we needed, he’s overpaid, he’s another Webber etc… pretty typical overreactions

oh, and put my site on the blogroll, for God’s sake (LOL), I should get some love as only-Italy-based-Sixers-blogger-loving-also-the-Clips

I won’t be able to watch the game live, I hope I’ll catch it replayed on Sat

http://sixers4guidos.wordpress.com/

by Ricky - Sixers4guidos on Nov 21, 2008 4:02 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All due respect

Philly fans are idiots. You guys freaking booed Santa.

EB is putting up EB numbers. The scoring is a bit down, but the FG% is good, so the gameplan obviously doesn’t call for him to be the main scorer (why, I’m not sure, ask Mo Cheeks).

Perhaps the injury and the age have slowed EB slightly on offense, but you still have one of the better PF’s to ever lace them up (he is one of the only non-centers ever to average 20ppg, 10 rpg, 2 blks and shoot 50% for a career…and probably the shortest to do so).

By the way, I really do love Philly fans. I’m from NJ originally. Boston fans…that’s another story

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Nov 21, 2008 6:22 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

btw

EB’s FG% is decidedly not good. 43.8%.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 21, 2008 1:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ricky

Hey, it’s my favorite Italian Sixers-Clippers fan! Sorry about the blogroll thing. Not sure why you’re not there, but I’ll fix it.

EB has traditionally been something of a slow starter. His November offensive numbers tend to be below his season numbers. So you can tell your readers that.

I also think that he may be an acquired taste to some extent. The Clippers are rarely on national TV. For most of his career, Philly fans have seen him maybe a couple times a year. You see his stats, you think he’s a superstar. But you watch him, and you don’t see anything spectacular. So I can imagine a first month letdown.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 21, 2008 9:05 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

EB's November stats for 05-06 were amazing

But otherwise, as Steve said, he does start slow, and his playing style is rather unspectacular.

He is a lunch pail player. Sixers did well acquring him.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Nov 21, 2008 9:11 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You are right, Steve

Felton has pretty much confirmed Dunleavy’s story. He is the one who said that Falk told him to turn off the phone and get to DC.

To me, Brand’s biggest offense is putting all of his affairs (and reputation) into Falk’s hands, rather than standing up to him. Even if he eventually went to Philly, at least it would have been gracefully.

The part about the Clippers supposedly saying “Mr. Sterling isn’t available”, I have my own thoughts about that. In the years leading up to EB’s free agency, I had imagined that DTS would take an active role in keeping his franchise player, similar to how Buss dealt with Kobe. Is there really any reason why Sterling could have held the negotiations at one of his many houses, or in a hotel suite, or somewhere to really show EB that he was indeed the franchise? That did surprise me.

Why not tell Brand that you will pay him a reasonable salary for the rest of his playing days, and then kick him a piece of the franchise, or a building or something, when he retires?

I don’t know. For Sterling to show no interest in the matter didn’t make sense to me.

In the end, EB and his family seem happy in Philly. Maybe the east coast was what they wanted all along. Would have been easy just to say so up front. I still think highly of him, especially compared to most athletes. Hopefully this was just a character lapse, and he can get back to being Elton. I hope he tells the truth someday.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Nov 21, 2008 6:37 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sterling and Family

In the end, I can’t disagree with EB’s decision – not at all. Sterling is a bad owner, and as far as I can tell a bad man. And who would fault anyone for choosing to be closer to his family?

Of course, none of this was news. He knew all too well who and what Donald Sterling was. I just fail to see how some perceived slight in his availability in July changes anything. And Philly was always closer to his family. It didn’t move between July 1 and July 8.

EB said one thing, apparently changed his mind, and did another, and never bothered to explain himself or even return phone calls. The thing he ended up doing made perfect sense – the way he did it was wrong.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 21, 2008 9:12 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

EB was wrong, and handled it poorly

And he should have already known that Sterling was a jerk and that Philly was closer to NY. None of this was an issue until he got to Falk’s office. Sometimes being told by a thrid party makes it all click..

But make no mistake, Brand was poisoned by Falk, and he handed over his reputation to a guy with a bad one.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Nov 21, 2008 9:49 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As you know, I disagree with CS position (and that of most on this board) on this issue

I’m not going to get into this again in detail. However, briefly, as I’ve told CS, insiders have told me that the Clippers lowballed and lied to EB about their available money, thinking that no one else would poney up an offer. You don’t do that to a franchise player. You just don’t. EB is too much of a good guy to start arguing publicly with the Clippers’ de facto GM about the matter; that’s why he’s not talking. The Clippers’ history (and in my opinion, the coach) made it more likely that he would bolt if given the opportunity. I understand that many of us want to view him as the enemy because it’s easier to do so than to admit the alternative, and I’m ok with that.

Did EB handle it poorly? Many seem to think so. Did MDSr? I think so.

In any event, perhaps in the long run it wasn’t wise to pay him $85 M at this stage in his career.

Time to move on.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 9:51 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow

That’s quite a position shift from you’ll believe it when you see the text message and we should wait until all info is out.

Move those goalposts.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Nov 21, 2008 10:13 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I knew John R wouldn't let this opportunity to argue go by

Truth be told, this has been my position. CS can verify. However, I’d still like to see the text message (and my source tells me he hasn’t seen it, so I wonder who actually has seen it). Even if the text message does exist, it doesn’t change what I understand happened and my opinion about it and about Clipper management.

The Clippers promised to give him their available money (still less than he was worth on the open market). His request was based on that. They thought he couldn’t get a higher offer on the open market. Falk set him straight. Ultimately we came back with over $80M but it was too late. Treat your franchise players right if you want to keep them.

Not a popular opinion around here, I know. But it is what it is.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 10:29 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Less than the max, not less than $85 M

That’s the disconnect. Those are two vastly different numbers. EB doesn’t want to talk about it in the press. MDSr is arguing his side publicly.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 10:35 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It should be argued publicly

since EB won’t talk to Dunleavy.

Anyhow, he wanted to give the team flexibility to remain competitive. Then he made Philly send away two good players to “sqeeze” EB in.

The Clippers would have had to cut guys to make it work. When they found out that is what Brand REALLY wanted, they tried, but it was too late.

He was disingenuous.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Nov 21, 2008 10:53 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The numbers were all there

We had the numbers figured out here at clipsnation.

EB knew the numbers. He recruited BD.

He pulled out at the last possible second.

There can be no reasonable debate that EB is in the wrong.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Nov 21, 2008 10:56 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry, John R

but there are many reasonable people, including insiders, that disagree with your view and that know much more about this than you do.

So stop the character assassination and move on.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 10:59 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Awww

Magical insiders. Well shoot I guess I should believe your unsourced info when you won’t believe MDSr’s text until you see it with your own eyes.

Seems reasonable.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Nov 21, 2008 11:00 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

CS knows the source.

Whatever floats your boat, my man. You’ve obviously made up your mind, so let’s just move on.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 11:01 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And it doesn't seem to have swayed him

Move on indeed.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Nov 21, 2008 11:01 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

CS is entitled to his opinion

Just like you, me and everyone else.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 11:02 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More on this

Ramona explains the situation in detail – we let Philly in the door and they swooped in and took him. I would say a savvy GM wouldn’t have let that happen and that it was a miscalculation on the part of the Clippers that he wouldn’t get any other offers. Had they known he would, they wouldn’t have lowballed him. Renouncing Boniface and Dickau doesn’t “weaken” the Clipers at all, at least not as much as losing EB. Come on.

Here’s Ramona:

"Part of the reason the Clippers’ stance angered Falk (and later Brand) was because there was a way the Clippers could increase their offer. It involved renouncing their rights to several players (like Shaun Livingston) who were counting against their salary cap number. Doing so, the Clippers argued, weakened the team. Plus, it was difficult to do when they felt that they already had a verbal agreement at five years and $70 million. "

I WOULD SAY THAT THE OFFER WAS ACCEPTED ORALLY BASED ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT ALL THEY HAD WAS $70M WHEN IN FACT THAT WAS NOT THE CASE. DOUBT EB UNDERSTOOD THAT, AND WHY WOULD HE UNNECESSARILY INVEST $15M IN THE CLIPPERS WITH NO RETURN? NONE OF US WOULD DO THAT. NONE OF US.

Ramona continues:

“Philadelphia didn’t have the same qualms. The 76ers were so desperate to land Brand, they sent Rodney Carney, Calvin Booth and a future first-rounder to Minnesota just to clear an extra $2-3 million in cap space to give to Brand.”

TRANSLATED – PHILLY DIDN’T SCREW AROUND AND JUST WENT AFTER HIM. HARD. THEIR NEW GM SAW AN OPENING, AND DROVE A MACK TRUCK THROUGH IT.

“:As soon as this happened, the Clippers came back with counter offers -first at five years $75 million, then five years, $81 million - by renouncing their rights to Dan Dickau, Shaun Livingston, Boniface Ndong, Smush Parker and James Singleton on July 9.”

“By this point though, it was too late. Brand was in Philly having dinner with the 76ers front office, having already decided to sign with Philly. Dunleavy later said he wasn’t even sure that Brand had received the counter offers, since direct contract between them had ceased several days earlier.”

Enough said.

 

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 11:13 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Please, please, please...

Read my comment on her blog. I love Ramona’s work, but she is flat wrong to imply that Liv, Dickau, Ndong, Parker, Singleton were the difference in the offers. The math doesn’t work.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 21, 2008 11:17 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Anonymous

For some reason, it’s showing up as Anonymous. Although I’m pretty sure it had defaulted to ClipperSteve. May be a bug in the blogging platform. Anyway, the first comment after the part two document is from me.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 21, 2008 11:43 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly Jax

to get EB, the Sixers had to weaken their team by trading Carney, Booth and a first rounder. So much for wanting to help make a team better. He wanted $$$.

It is not that the Clippers would be weakened by renouncing Dickau, Liv, et al., it is that there would be no money left to do anything else You would have been left with BD, Brand, Kaman, Thronton, Mobley, Thomas, and about $3M to fill 9 more roster spots. Is THAT sacrificing for your team? It is all crap.

Here is my final point:

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Nov 21, 2008 11:36 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

EB SHOULD NOT HAVE OPTED OUT AT ALL

Not only did he screw things up considerably, but he also screwed his buddy Maggette.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Nov 21, 2008 11:36 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Then maybe Clipper management

overspent and can’t afford him. Not his fault.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 11:38 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There is much open to interpretation

It is a fact that the Clippers offered him one amount when they thought he would take it, and then came back with a bigger amount when they realized they were losing him. That clearly upset Brand, and that’s understandable.

However, it does not necessarily mean they lied. What MDsr has said (and indeed, my understanding of the Clippers cap situation this summer would support this) is that the Clippers maximum offer was $14M, and to offer more WOULD MEAN WEAKENING THE TEAM. Like I said, I know something about the cap, and I agree. They would have been forced to do something like what Philly did – trade Brevin Knight and a first rounder to Minnesota for a future second rounder or some such – to increase their offer. They were willing to do it, but Brand’s original position was that it was about playing for a strong team – not about the money. MDsr has been quoted directly on this topic – “Do you want me to get you more? It will mean weakening the team and I didn’t think you wanted me to do that.”

As for EB’s silence on the subject…. I agree with Jax that it certainly does not prove anything. We don’t know everything that happened, and we may never. I’m willing to say that I believe MDsr and think Brand behaved less than honorably based on what I know. But who cares what I say?

Read the pest’s recap as well (I’m working on a separate post). She implies that the well was poisoned from the time the Clippers refused to offer a max extension. I’m willing to say right here – EB for a max extension or no EB, I pick no EB.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 21, 2008 10:20 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My inside source tells me

Unequivocally that the Clippers intentionally lowballed EB believing that he couldn’t get a higher offer. Was it MDSr? DTS? Both? Not sure. But they quickly came up to over $80M when they realized that their strategy had backfired. The payment of any money arguably weakens the team. Not sure what MDSr is talking about. EB is a franchise player. If they couldn’t afford him why did they ultimately offer over $80M?

We care what you say, and your opinion is reasonable. I just have a different opinion about this. And I have to be true to myself here.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 10:42 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So now I've read Ramona's post

and it seems to verify what I understand occurred. Falk pointed out to the Clippers that there ways to get the offer much higher but that the Clippers did’nt want to do that (renouncing Shaun Livingston and a bunch of scrubs). If EB buys into the Clipper argument that giving that money to him weakens the team, and then signs, and the Clippers then renounce those folks (which is what happened), who gets the money? Do you really think EB understood the math before Falk explained it to him?

Essentially, the Clippers were asking EB to give up $15 M in salary to help them overcome what some might argue are management mistakes. Is it reasonable for a team to think that a franchise player would essentially invest $15 M in a team without any return? I don’t get that logic and I’m not surprised that it ultimately didn’t work.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 10:54 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Did you read my comment on Ramona's post?

Livingston, Parker, Singleton, etc…. those aren’t the ones they had to renounce. That’s a misconception. The math is the math. As John R points out, we knew the math here at Clips Nation.

As for whether or not it was reasonable to expect that EB would forego some money… well, um, he said he would. So I guess it depends on your definition of reasonable. “Hey coach, I’ll take $14M per to play with EB.”

“$14M per? That’s unreasonable! I’m outta here!”

You see my point, right?

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 21, 2008 11:13 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Explain, please

If they couldn’t afford it, why did they ultimately offer over $80 M? As I’ve said, they had the ability to make that offer all along, but they did not.

Again, he said he’d forego some money before he realized what the financial situation actually was and before he understood that other teams would sacrifice for hiim whereas DTS wanted him to sacrifice for them.

Yes, I do see your point. I hope you can see mine.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 11:17 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I do see your point

Still…

“he said he’d forego some money before he realized what the financial situation actually was and before he understood that other teams would sacrifice for hiim whereas DTS wanted him to sacrifice for them.”

So, he said I’m good with that amount, until he knew he could get more? Really? That’s a real shocker.

What exactly is the point of saying you’re good with an offer until a better one comes in?

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 21, 2008 11:20 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Because you are entering into an agreement based on a false assumption

which is itself based on a misrepresentation made by the party you’re negotiating with.

EB agreed to the lower figure, if it is true he agreed, based on the assumption that the Clippers couldn’t afford more. Turns out that was incorrect. Jeez – they ended up offering him over $80 M. This doesn’t really seem debatable.

The question becomes whether the Clippers lied to him about what they could afford, or whether they were just negligent. My source says they intentionally lowballed him. That’s apparently what EB thinks too.

Either way, as it turns out, the Clippers could afford more, alot more. Why should a player forego $15 M in earnings to help a wealthy owner make his team competitive? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and the fact that MDSr apparently believes that the player should do so reinforces my belief that he doesn’t know what he’s doing. The Clippers should concentrate on getting competent management who bring good players to the team at reasonable prices and they won’t have these kinds of problems.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 11:28 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Uh...

“Why should a player forego $15 M in earnings to help a wealthy owner make his team competitive?”

Uh…maybe because he wants to win? He has more money than he can spend already. The fact that you ask that question tells me that you, like EB, don’t care about winning. Or at least don’t understand how to do it. Not surprising since EB has never won anything his whole career. He’s a loser.

Even a player like Gil Arenas, who many say is selfish, understood that it would be beneficial to him and his team if he took less money. He definitely took less than $15 mil over the life of his contract.

by madglove on Nov 21, 2008 11:34 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If the Clippers want to win

They shouldn’t be looking for charity. The NBA is a business. These athletes are businessmen, just like the rest of us. We can agree to disagree.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 11:36 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That such BS

It isn’t a pure business. If it were, “winning” wouldn’t play any part. If it were a pure business, Staples would be FULL of Clippers championship banners because Sterling turns a healthy profit year after year. So don’t give me that “it’s a business” stuff.

It’s a SPORT and in sports you sacrifice to win. And you act like this is some kind of novel concept. As I mentioned before, many players have done so to win. KG took less money than he could have gotten more. Gil did the same. Many players don’t grab all they can.

And you act like the money was to go to Sterling’s pockets. It has nothing at all to do with “charity”. This isn’t baseball, there’s a cap. The team wanted to have the flexibility to keep and add more talent around EB.

The bottom line is this – EB PRETENDED that he cared about winning, and in the end made up a reason to leave while the team was out there trying to build a contender.

by madglove on Nov 21, 2008 11:45 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Obviously...

They realized that Brand didn’t care as much about winning as he claimed, and he was selfish.

It’s OBVIOUS that keeping him is better than keeping the other guys around. So they had to up their offer.

But talk about misrepresentations, Brand claimed he cared about winning and they were trying to build a winner while still paying Brand VERY well.

Your posts act like they were asking him to take the mid level.

by madglove on Nov 21, 2008 11:53 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL - look, I just think

that for some reason they offered him initially far less than they could really afford. Their argument about “weakening the team” seems nebulous to me. Perhaps there was some disconnect as to why he was agreeing to take less and what they told him. I don’t know. I do know that some insiders (not all, apparently) believe that they lowballed him.

EB has certain talents and in my view he has every right to maximize the earning potential from those talents. Like any of us. I don’t think that makes him selfish. Many of you do. I get it. It would have been nice if he had stayed; a real feel good story. But that doesn’t always happen in real life. That’s why we need competent management to make sure that when these opportunities come along that we don’t blow them. He should have been locked in and he was not.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 11:59 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Competent management and the EB saga

are seperate arguments.

Clippers mgmt could be better, no doubt, but the best mgmt in the world could easily be hosed by a player and agent going back on their word.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Nov 21, 2008 12:15 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hypocrisy!

They could have entered into a max contract with EB easily.

By not also signing Baron Davis.

He said he would take less money to compete. Then he specified, PRECISELY, how much money it would take to get it done.

Only THEN did he stop communicating.

Until you can reconcile this, and you can’t, you are wrong.

The sequence of events are not a matter of opinion.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Nov 21, 2008 11:48 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

$80 M wasn't the max

He said he’d take less than the max. He specified how much less he’d take based on what the Clippers represented to him. Then he found out they had more.

I understand your points. Many think he should have sacrificed. He was sacrificing at $80M. You think he should have sacrificed more and that he’s a loser for not doing that. I disagree. The issue has been crystallized.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 11:53 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow

A classic Jax misrepresentation.

I do not think EB is a loser. I think he is a liar. I am not expecting EB to sacrifice anything. I expected him to be truthful.

The issue, precisely crystalized, is that EB, fully understanding the cap/roster situation, and understanding it the same as we on clipsnation, entered into a verbal agreement involving himself and two other parties. He went back on that agreement.

It is as simple as that.

Every team has more at all time. The Clippers did not have more money for EB out of greed on the Clippers part.

THAT MONEY WAS BEING PAID TO PLAYERS.

It cannot be accurately characterized as greed or a failure to sacrifice. To say it is is to join in the lie.

EB was asking other PLAYERS to sacrifice, not the Clippers.

I would even let EB off the hook if he went back to the Clippers and said, hey why don’t we dump this guy and that and make some more space. I think that is harsh, but reasonable.

It is rediculous to say it is about the money, because hey, look what happened. The Clippers spent just about every dime they could this offseason getting back to the cap.

I do have a question for you. If you saw the text message, would it change anything for you?

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Nov 21, 2008 11:59 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There are alot of issues at play

I’d like to figure out exactly what happened, but the bottom line for me is that he’s gone and that this was avoidable. I’d like to make sure that this never, ever happens again.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 12:25 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There, we agree

I said this earlier above:
"The part about the Clippers supposedly saying "Mr. Sterling isn’t available", I have my own thoughts about that. In the years leading up to EB’s free agency, I had imagined that DTS would take an active role in keeping his franchise player, similar to how Buss dealt with Kobe. Is there really any reason why Sterling could have held the negotiations at one of his many houses, or in a hotel suite, or somewhere to really show EB that he was indeed the franchise? That did surprise me.

Why not tell Brand that you will pay him a reasonable salary for the rest of his playing days, and then kick him a piece of the franchise, or a building or something, when he retires?
I don’t know. For Sterling to show no interest in the matter didn’t make sense to me."

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Nov 21, 2008 1:52 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dude, yes, there was more money

If EB took it all, they wouldn’t be able to add talent to the roster, which is what EB pretended he wanted.

He proved he was full of it when he went to Philly and forced them to jettison good young players.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Nov 21, 2008 11:44 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As for explanation...

read my comment on Ramona’s blog. I’ll go into more detail in a separate post if I ever get to it. All those scrub names, including Liv – that gets you to $14M per. That doesn’t get you to $16M per.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 21, 2008 11:21 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The extreme view is to pardon EB of any wrong doing

and lay all of the blame at the feet of the Clippers. David Falk is not even making that claim.

Who went into damage control mode after this blew up? EB, or Dunleavy?

Clearly it was EB and Falk, and their evolving stories.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Nov 21, 2008 10:30 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

MDSr. went public with facts, texts etc

Falk has come forward with half-truths and misdirections, at best.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Nov 21, 2008 10:48 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, Falk and EB aren't defending themselves - nor do they have to

MDSr, on the other hand, does, because of the perception that the Clippers blew the deal.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 10:49 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Its true

He has to work harder because he works for the Clippers. But you should find that admirable instead of a negative trait.

And all Falk had to say was the Clippers blew the deal and most people would believe him. But again not MDSr’s fault.

But not defending yourself is one thing. He won’t even call MDSr back? That’s just cowardice and weakness. It doesn’t indicate to the rational that he is in the right.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Nov 21, 2008 10:51 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's not working harder, he's just embarrassed and trying to explain it

It’s just his spin, and it’s not accurate in my view. Falk and EB don’t have to say anything.

If it is true that the Clippers lowballed EB, why would he be a coward for not calling back the de facto GM who lowballed him? What’s the point?

Why is it not MDSr’s fault that the deal was blown?

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 10:56 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

See above

They didn’t lowball him at all. Its a downright reinvention of the word lowball to offer someone all the money you have, and to agree to sign another player you want then to sign, and to call it a lowball.

EB is a coward and a liar. It is what it is.

He doesnt get to invent his outs and slights after he disappears.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Nov 21, 2008 10:58 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Lowball" is how insiders describe this

Your’e not an insider. I think I’ll believe them.

Let’s move on.

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 11:00 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Check

So when you don’t have any actual evidence to produce, but demand it from others, you want to quit. THAT is a smart move.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Nov 21, 2008 11:01 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not demanding anything

And frankly I could care less what you think

by Jax on Nov 21, 2008 11:01 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kudos to Jax and John R

For (mostly) having a civil conversation about this.

I’ve heard a very different version of events from a different ‘insider’ than the one Jax relayed to me from his ‘insider’. So let’s at least admit that we’re all choosing to believe the version that fits our world view better.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 21, 2008 11:16 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Over it

One thing, after all this time, is that it doesn’t seem so horrible or important at this point. A big part of that is how the Clips responded—which seemed to be pretty good at the time, before the lost camp/preseason and current debacle. And they’re still in decent shape, with a ton of capspace in a couple of years. Kaman/Camby need to play together for awhile, along with Baron. It’s going to take longer than Club Optimism would have hoped, but we’re slowly starting to see some positive signs.

There are the positive elements for EB that you mention—“Brand will get more exposure, more all-star appearances, and possibly more wins.” I like the way that you say “possibly.” And I’m not sure that the all-star game is such a lock, either—after you have Garnett, Howard, and Bosh, is Horford putting on pressure, or Marion—who am I missing? 15 and 10 and a mixed record might not get you there.

And there are some negatives, like the supporting cast. Kaman 2.0, possibly 2.5 vs. Dalembert—we’ll see how that goes tonight. We know that Dalembert isn’t the nicest guy in the world from his Canadian Olympic experience. Kaman’s a little off-kilter, but he doesn’t seem like a bad guy, and there was a sense that he and Brand had something of a bond, and motivated each other to get better (aside from that pesky injury thing). Iggy as a big-time player: how’s that going? Does he seem like the kind of guy that the Clips would love to burn a lot of capspace on in a couple of years if he was a free agent? I’m not saying he’s not good, and we get to see him tonight (against Mobley—if I was a semi-elite NBA SG, Mobley would make me nuts, know what I mean?).

And that leaves Andre Miller. Hmmm. Baron Davis vs. Andre Miller.

Brand and Miller deserve each other, is my conclusion. Like Brutus and Cassius (et tu, EB?). Worthy of a separate post—that’s the storyline to me at this point. The circumstances of the July debacle are behind us and immaterial, but EB and AMiller are actually playing together and in the locker room, etc. Miller didn’t exactly ruin the Clippers, but he certainly made us fans miserable and disappointed. He seems to have no personality. He’s a pretty good PG at times, but he’s very hard to root for. EB did not thrive in their previous pairing, and he does not appear to be thriving currently. He certainly hasn’t gotten off to a fast start—but he would always start slowly as a Clip and be slightly out of shape, until Dunleavy challenged him to go to the next level in his MVP-level season.

Are they having fun yet?

by citizen zhiv on Nov 21, 2008 7:52 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yi jianlin as All-Star

If he’s on the all-star ballot…fans in China might vote him thru also. So there’s a lot of competition in the East for forwards also, besides the usual guys like KG and Bosh.

I love LAC.

by oasisman on Nov 21, 2008 7:58 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

EB, All-Star

Competition is pretty stiff for forwards in the East.

The starting 5 will no doubt be: James, Wade, Howard, Iverson, KG.

Other forwards: Pierce, Sheed, Bosh, Jamison, Horford, Prince, Yi, Josh Smith, Z-Bo (seriously).

If they decided to play it small, I think EB can get in there, but it sure isn’t a lock. (Of course, there may be a “pro-EB bias” among coaches, fueled by ESPN)

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Nov 21, 2008 8:56 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thomas and Mobley for Zach Randolph?

Is this the answer for the Clippers? Randolph is off to a good start this season but wouldnt this trade kill LA’s cap space for 2010?

by Petey Pablo on Nov 21, 2008 10:47 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let's Just Unleash DeAndre on EB....

….just kidding.

….but I really want to see this kid play!

by Newtybar on Nov 21, 2008 10:48 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dunleavy didn't get it done.

It really doesn’t matter who did what, or who said what. Players are not going to be logical and until a contract is signed anything can happen.

Dunleavy failed and is trying to say it’s not his fault and he did everything he could. Fact is players don’t seem to want to play for him after their contracts are done.

by FireDunleavy.com on Nov 21, 2008 11:43 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Strange...

Kaman did and so did Sam. They weren’t even interested in re-signing Maggette so that’s a non-issue. That leaves…Brand.

So no your statement isn’t accurate at all. Shocking since you tend to be so unbiased…

by madglove on Nov 21, 2008 11:48 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As far as Maggette..

He even came back to the Clips and asked them if they wanted to counter-offer the Warriors. I would qualify that as interest in staying with the Clips and MDsr as well.

by Clip Show on Nov 21, 2008 12:20 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kaman signed cus it was a great contract and wouldn’t get that as a free agent. Kaman also fits Dunleavy’s style and doesn’t care about winning.

by FireDunleavy.com on Nov 21, 2008 3:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL

Is there an “ignore” function on this site? Seriously.

by supac on Nov 22, 2008 4:36 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah...

Can we “ignore” you?

by MichaelCage on Nov 23, 2008 7:35 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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