Bulls fan here asking about trades...
Hello Clipper fans,
I posted here a bit when you guys needed a point guard this offseason, and I had my eye on a hopeful trade for Maggette... I was impressed by the detailed analysis I recieved about Maggette, and it made me less hopeful that he wore our jersey.
I return now because there has been a lot of speculation on our board about trading for Kaman or Camby. You have seem to have a lot of bigs... We obviously need a center, and we're hoping that you want a few of our expendable pieces... which are basically Kirk Hinrich, Andres Nocioni, and Larry Hughes, and to some extent, Drew Gooden, although, I think the idea is to add to our frontcourt without also subtracting from it too much. Some Bulls fans are ready to throw in one of the following as well, Tyrus Thomas, Joakim Noah, and Thabo Sefolosha.
So, I wanted to check the pulse of the edjucated and internet savvy Clipper fan. How do you guys feel?
Perhaps, a package of Nocioni, Thabo, and a draft pick for Kaman? Too me, that doesn't seem like enough talant for Kaman, but those are the peices that seem to fit your need for wings, and the salaries work.
Would you rather have Kirk? or has Baron Davis solved all your point issues?
Would you rather send us Camby? Cause that would be great too.
0 recs |
16 comments
Comments
interesting
As someone who was highly critical of our last trade to get zbo (although I’m beginning to come around), I’ll take a stab at it…
All indications are the clippers aren’t going to make a move involving Kaman at least until Zbo, Camby and Kaman all play together. Theoretically they can each average 32 minutes a game together. We have a decent front court that features probably 3 of the top 10 rebounding big men in the game. Behind them we have a project in DeAndre Jordan and serviceable bigs in Paul davis and brian skinner. However, don’t think that just because the clippers have a pretty good front court that they have expendable pieces. Camby is 34 and Kaman always battles injuries (like right now).
As far as Kaman goes, he’s probably a top 5-7 center when healthy, and there are very few true 7 footers with his skill set. He can post, defend, block shots, rebound and he’s developed a nice 15 footer. When he’s on, he’s a force, hence his first nickname, "Kaman 2.0" However, he can be at times terribly inconsistent and has a habit of over thinking his moves and making shots more difficult by flipping them at the rim, hence his alter ego title, "Mr flippy".
Basically there are 2 positions in the NBA that are hard to find. A quality top talent point guard and a dominant 7 footer. Kaman may well be that dominant 7 footer. As such, the clippers aren’t going to trade for average wing players. The bobcats already offered Gerald Wallace or Jason Richardson, (If I had to rate these two I’d say they are probably slightly above average wings) for Kaman and those deals were QUICKLY rejected by the clips. So whatever you have, it’s got to be better than that. If you happen to have a starting 2 guard better than Jrich you’re willing to part with, you might consider at least giving the clips a call, but most of us are excited about our rookie Eric Gordon.
You probably didn’t identify our weakness correctly in your trade because we have a pretty good starting wing in al thornton and Gordon plays good defense and can shoot from anywhere. Our main weakness is bench scoring, but most of that is due to injuries. Kaman is out right now as is ricky davis. A far as your trade goes however, to trade Kaman for bench help seems like a tremendous waste of talent. You also didn’t mention that it looks like Nocioni’s numbers are down across the board this year and he’s only playing 3 less minutes per game. And I don’t think the clips are looking for a project in Thabo (BTW his 3pt percent is horrible this year?). Noah has a horrible looking jumper and Tyrus would drive MDSR crazy. Kirk could be interesting and would allow baron to play off the ball in certain situations, but I don’t see it happening, plus the bobcats trade is much better.
As far as camby goes, he’s playing pretty well along with Randolph right now and they don’t seem to be eating each others numbers, so we’ll just have to see. I doubt the clips make any more trades though at least until the trade deadline.
by cantthinkofagoodname on Dec 10, 2008 2:01 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
I was hoping that Kaman was viewed as the “oft-injured and inconsistent center with a fairly large long term contract in a crowded frontcourt on a struggling team…”
But if MDSR views him as the “young, promising, big bodied center, who is locked into a reasonable contract for the next few years, and will be one of the building blocks as he turns his team around”…
Then I don’t think we have near enough to pry him loose. Especially if your only weakness is bench scoring.
As far as our players, allow me to give you the local insight…
Nocioni was the first Bull to play well with Derrick Rose, and started off the season enjoying wide open jumpers… but now he has been in such a terrible slump that some of us are wondering if he is playing hurt again. Oddly enough, Vinny Del Negro is still playing him a lot. When healthy, he brings all the fist pumping passion one could hope for, and he does hit the three, which would be nice for your bench scoring and to space the floor with all your bigs. Although, sometimes he tries to do too much, and when chemistry was bad last year, he turned into a huge jacker, he was just launching three’s whenever he got his hands on the ball.
Thabo was the first player that Vinny mentioned in his press conference when he took the job. He talked about how he wanted to draft him in phoenix and his fantastic potential. That’s ironic now, because Thabo can’t get out of Vinny’s dog house. He is the odd man out in our guard rotation, and it will only get worse if nobody gets traded before Kirk comes back from injury. His biggest success has come as a defender, in particular against D Wade in the playoffs a few years back. But he’s long, an athletic, so he seems to have the tools to develop into a slasher on offense.
I won’t say too much about Kirk, because he is probably the player that you guys are most familiar with. He is a solid point guard, who plays solid defense, and has a solid outside jumper. He is injured right now, but certainly not injury prone. The organization loves him. Basically, he isn’t going to win a lot of games by himself, but he would be the ideal point for a team like Miami or Portland, that had other guys who could score, and handle the ball some, but that needed somebody to lead the team and get the ball where it needs to be.
Noah is the biggest mystery on our roster this year. He finished the season last year as the starting center, and we all thought we had a 5. He was aggressive, gave 110%, was a vocal leader, blocked shots, and chased loose balls all over the court. This year however, he is out of shape, an lost on both sides of the court. He did have an eye injury this summer that forced him to miss some time, but nobody can figure out why he isn’t in shape yet, an Vinny is growing tired of him being lost on the court. He still puts up solid rebound and block numbers when he gets minutes, but he either gets hooked for not knowing the plays, or he gets winded and asks to come out. So his minutes are down.
Hughes was not wanted here. But he was better than the corpse of Ben Wallace, so we happily traded for him. Until a month ago, he was viewed as an expiring contract and possible detractor of chemistry. But then a funny thing happened… he started playing well. His shot selection is often terrible, and he is not an unselfish player. But he has the length and ability to be a decent defender (although he gamble’s a bit too much). And he is a pretty good finisher on breaks an drives. Plus, while he is a streaky shooter, he does have range, and has hit a few game winning three’s for us in the last couple weeks. So, with him being a decent player, and having a 14 million dollar contract expiring in 2010, he might be one of our most attractive trade assets.
Then there’s Tyrus. I don’t even know what to say about him. Most of the Blog-a-Bull community is blindly in love with him. And he is the next Amare. He is super athletic… you can youtube him for hours. I have lowered my expectations for him quite a bit, but there’s no denying that he rebounds well and blocks shots well, and he dunks with the best of them. In fact, if somebody could convince him to stay around the hoop, I see him as a Tyson Chandler. However, he has worked really hard on an 18 foot jumper (god knows why, it’s still inconsistent at best) and he seems to want to prove he has some perimeter game. I wish somebody would tell him nobody cares about his perimeter game.
by kidronmusic on Dec 10, 2008 12:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I almost forgot to mention
Kaman has a poison pill in his contract too meaning if you want him you’re going to have to pay more (which from what I’ve read about the bulls over the off season, they don’t like to do)… I don’t know the details but other citizens do…
by cantthinkofagoodname on Dec 10, 2008 2:04 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
It's a good question...
Here’s my take. Citizen CTGN is correct that MDsr is very unlikely to do anything until he sees the three bigs together. Kaman played the first quarter of ZBo’s first game as a Clipper before shutting it down to rest his foot. He’s at least a week away from returning.
But there’s lots of time before the trade deadline.
There is a big problem for you with either one of your trade targets.
The problem with Kaman is that MDsr LOVES him. He probably overvalues him, and we probably do too. We all see how good he can be, and in fact how good he was for an extended run last year (and he’s been almost that good this year). You’re likely going to have to pay for that guy – the one with All Star worthy productivity and a reasonable contract. And nothing you list above seems like it’s worth that guy. The reality is, if the Clippers were dealing the inconsistent center who is injured a lot, this might not be a bad trade. But that’s not how MDsr sees him, IMHO. So the perceived ‘sweeteners’ in such a trade (guys like Thomas or Noah or even a draft pick) aren’t likely to get it done.
The problem with Camby is that his contract only runs through 2010, and I really don’t see MDsr taking back more years for guys who will be coming off the bench like Hinrich or Noc. That leaves Hughes and/or Gooden. I agree with you that the Bulls are unlikely to include Gooden, since he’s probably your most effective big at present. So we’re looking at some sort of trade with Camby and Hughes as the principals as the only thing I think gets past square one. This would also require a lot of sweeteners, though not as much as a Kaman trade. The Bulls pick is going to be in the late lottery or beyond – sort of meh. Noah and Thomas are both worse this year than they were last year, and you can’t blame it on Skiles, since their doing it under a new coach.
But the Clippers are going nowhere fast, and although Camby has been great, it’s hard to see him being a major contributor beyond next season. So as the trade deadline draws closer, I could see a Hughes+Noah+pick for Camby+filler deal making sense. Although I might have to kill myself if Larry Hughes joined Ricky Davis on the Clippers.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 10, 2008 7:58 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I see some sense there too.
Especially if Kirk comes back healthy before the deadline, because that will crowd our backcourt even more. And if the Clippers record isn’t any better.
Basically, we would be swapping expiring deals to better fit our teams. My only worry would be that we would still be very thin at center. So maybe the filler from LA would include Deandre Jordan.
Hows he coming along?
by kidronmusic on Dec 10, 2008 12:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
DeAndre
He’s raw. Really, really raw.
I don’t think the Clippers would include him. They like him a lot. And he is a pretty amazing prospect. Like 9’6" standing reach, and athletic.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 10, 2008 1:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yup...
Jordan is massive when he was guarding Howard. I was especially surprised at how skinny Howard’s legs was compared to Jordan. Imagine when Jordan becomes ripped and finally goes to his man-body. Hopefully by that time, he would have learned some tremendous post moves as well. The athletism is definitely there though.
I also like Jordan personality wise. I learned more about him from his blogs.
by cliptakular on Dec 10, 2008 1:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay...
Do you have any filler that can play the 5 that would come back in a trade?
by kidronmusic on Dec 10, 2008 5:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Paul Davis or Brian Skinner...
Those are your choices.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 11, 2008 2:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No use in having Kaman
when he’s swimming in the pool all the time
by cliptakular on Dec 10, 2008 10:18 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Nocioni would have to be in there, I think
But I still don’t like it.
I’ll mention this to Dunleavey. You talk to Paxson.
F-Elton!
by mikey p on Dec 10, 2008 10:58 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I would love to give you Nocioni....
But if your talking about including him with Hughes ( as a follow up to ClipperSteve’s suggestion) then I don’t see how it could work, we would be sending you 20 Million dollars in salary. And I don’t know who you could give us to make that work…
Unless you send us Camby and Kaman… which would be great, but seems a little silly.
by kidronmusic on Dec 10, 2008 12:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay...
Something I wouldn’t want to do, but a few in Chicago would support…
What about Deng for Kaman? I don’t think it could happen as a straight trade, because Deng has Base Year Compensation restrictions…
by kidronmusic on Dec 10, 2008 4:51 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
To oversimplify...
Yes, I would do that deal.
The BYC rules complicate it, and I don’t feel like looking it up right now (always makes my head hurt), but it could probably be worked out. But ignoring that complexity, a trade that boiled down to Kaman for Deng is certainly worth considering. It’s not perfect – Deng’s numbers have been going the wrong way for two seasons, and he’s not really a 2, which is what they need. But assuming he can defend 2’s, he gives them a solid wing.
Come to think of it, Kaman’s got a poison pill in his Clippers contract. I don’t know the details. It probably makes the deal even more complex to get done. May not be possible to make something work around both Deng’s BYC restriction and Kaman’s poison pill. Ironic, since they both make essentially the same amount currently.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 11, 2008 2:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i wouldnt want deng. he just signed a huge contract ( 5 year 74 million) and his points, boards, assists, fg% all down. His minutes are the same and hes only averaging 14 points, 5 boards and 2 assists. I would take Gerald Wallace instead.
by andrewexd on Dec 14, 2008 4:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

by 









