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Should Mike Dunleavy Sr. Be Fired?

Should is a funny word.  There is no answer to the question of whether Mike Dunleavy Sr. SHOULD be fired, because there is no should in this case.

But if we were looking to buy or sell a house, we’d look at the other houses in the same neighborhood to try to establish a price.  Let’s have a look at the coach ‘comps’. 

Washington won their 4th game last night.  Memphis, Golden State and Sacramento each won their most recent games, giving all of them 6 wins on the season now.  The Thunder have had the worst record in the league since the Clippers and Wizards won their first game, and that does not seem very likely to change.  But other than the Thunder, no one has a worse winning percentage than the Clippers.

Four teams in the league have 4 wins or fewer:  the Thunder with 2, and the Clippers, Wolves and Wizards.  Notice anything about those four teams?  The Clippers are the only one not to have fired their coach.

Of the three teams with six wins, Memphis’ Marc Iavaroni and Sacramento’s Reggie Theus are hanging by a thread (although Reggie’s thread may have gotten stronger with their win over the Lakers last night).  Don Nelson of the Warriors does appear to be at least as safe as MDsr, if not more so.  But he is (a) a legend and (b) playing without one of his best players.

Across the entire NBA, 14 of the 30 teams (the same number that miss the playoffs, coincidentally) currently have a losing record.  Of those 14:

  • 4 coaches have already been fired;
  • 3 more are reported in the press to be very likely to lose their jobs soon.  Iavaroni and the Grizzlies, Theus of the Kings and Mo Cheeks of the 76ers are all on very thin ice.  Last Friday Chris Sheridan of ESPN.com set the odds at 1-1, 3-2 and 19-1 respectively.
  • 4 are in their first season with the team – they are more likely to be given more leeway to work their way through the issues. 

Of course, Mike D’Antoni of the Knicks and Larry Brown of the Hornets are also extremely high visibility hires who are not going anywhere any time soon (soon being a relative term in Brown’s case).  The other rookie head coaches are Scott Skiles in Milwaukee and Vinny Del Negro in Chicago, and the Knicks, Bucks and Bulls are all arguably exceeding expectations, so there’s another reason to give them more time.

That makes 11 out of 14 coaches with losing records who are either already gone, in serious trouble, or escaping scrutiny because they are new in town.

Don Nelson of the Warriors, Jim O’Brien of the Pacers and Dunleavy are the three that seem to be safe, without the extenuating circumstances of being the new coach.

Nelson, as we mentioned, has played the entire season without one of their most important players: Monta Ellis.  (It's worth noting that injuries kept the microscope off of MDsr last season.)  He also led the team to a playoff win two seasons ago and 48 victories last year (after the team had missed the playoffs for 9 seasons before that) so he has built up some good will.

O’Brien’s lack of scrutiny is almost as perplexing as Dunleavy.  But I have not heard any rumors that his job is in trouble.  Wins over the Lakers and Celtics have no doubt helped, but after opening the season 5-5, the team is 2-8 in their last 10, so don’t be surprised if his name starts getting mentioned. 

Which brings us to MDsr.

Let me be clear.  I’m not necessarily advocating that he be fired.  The debate in the comments after the last game was pretty interesting - it's pretty clear some citizens are very upset.  One school of thought is "Hey, we have to do something" and the other is "Starting over just sets the team further back."  There’s merit to both arguments.  Obviously, Oklahoma City and Toronto and Minnesota and Washington did something – but does anyone really think that Scott Brooks or Jay Triano or Ed Tapscott or (FSM forbid) Kevin McHale are the answer?  Basically, those teams have committed to letting their players get a little older before they get a real coach.  Which is probably fine if you’re the Thunder.

With only 30 teams in the league, each coaching situation is unique.  In the Clippers case, you’ve got a veteran coach (third longest continuous tenure with the same team at 6 seasons, if you can believe that) with a new team.  So one of the arguments often used for getting a new coach – "The players have started tuning him out" – doesn’t seem to fit.  How could they be tuning him out after 6 weeks?
By the same token, unlike say Don Nelson in Oakland, he doesn’t have the track record to fall back on.  Yes, they won a playoff series in 2006.  But in the three seasons since they have:

  •  Wildly underachieved to win 40 games and miss the playoffs, compiling a 49% winning percentage.
  •  Won 23 games, 5th worst in the league, compiling a 28% winning percentage
  •  Opened this season 4-17 – a 19% winning percentage.

57% to 49% to 28% to 19%.  I don't know about you, but I don't like the trend.  Yes, there were some (semi-valid) excuses.  Yes, there were devastating injuries last season, which is why he did not come under scrutiny at the time (and by the way, I agree that he deserved that particular "Get out of Jail free" card).  Yes, the team is new and a little banged up this season (although not nearly as much as last season).  (There was in fact not a good excuse for 06-07, Livingston’s injury notwithstanding.  It’s not like the team was above .500 when Livingston was healthy, and MDsr’s handling of the Maggette situation left much to be desired.  However, they did win 40 games, competing for a playoff spot until the final week of the season.)

The accumulation of these problems, with the steady deterioration of the winning percentage, fairly begs for action to be taken.  Can the franchise really afford to sit idly by while they re-emerge as a nightly Jay Leno punchline

On the other hand, the turnover in the roster, which has continued into the season with the acquisition of Zach Randolph, does argue for some patience.  Which is exactly what Andy Roeser called for in his statement after the Orlando loss.

It's always darkest before the dawn.   We like our players and as hard as it is to say, we just need to be a little patient until it all comes together.

Apparently, Roeser has been moonlighting writing Hallmark cards.

Indeed, if you have any confidence in this coach, if you think his success with the 05-06 team was something other than a fluke, if you think he can be successful with this personnel, then patience is the right call. 

But if you believe there’s a more fundamental problem, then patience is not a virtue.  It’s disconcerting in the extreme that the Clippers disappear so completely from time to time.  Isn’t it the coach’s job to motivate a team before a game?  Well, it would be difficult to look less motivated than the Clippers at Memphis last week.  And isn’t it a coach’s job to manage the game?  Some of the blame for end of game collapses against Dallas and Orlando (and myriad others) can be placed on the players on the court – but some has to be placed on the coach as well.

In the final analysis, one of the reasons that so few people are talking about Dunleavy being on the hot seat is financial and historical.  Dunleavy signed the most lucrative coaching contract in the history of the Clippers’ franchise in 2006.  He is under contract until summer 2011, and owed at least $12M.  He’s also just been promoted to General Manager.  Firing him outright means finding TWO replacements, and paying them, while continuing to pay him.  Clippers owner Donald T. Sterling once tried to get out of paying Bill Fitch the $1M he owed him because he didn’t think Fitch was looking hard enough for a new job (Fitch was in his 70s at the time).  He’s not happily going to leave $12M on the table.  The other option would be to retain MDsr as the GM and hire a new coach – but you’d have to have his buy-in to do that.  And you’d end up with Kim Hughes or Jim Eyen in the first chair.  It may be a better answer than doing nothing; but it doesn’t seem like a great answer.

By the way, as a point of comparison, Eddie Jordan signed a 3 year, $12M extension with the Wizards in 2006.  He’d be expecting a similar annual salary to coach elsewhere.  Any other name coach is likewise going to command at least $4M per.  You pay at least that for Avery Johnson, Flip Saunders… any one who’s ever won anywhere.  That’s the replacement cost.  You can pay less for a first time coach.  You can try your luck with Kim Hughes.  Mark Jackson would cost more than Hughes, if he’ll even take the job.  I think someone should take a look at Kurt Rambis, but that would have to wait until the off-season since assistants don’t change jobs in the middle of a season.  But there’s no obvious answer out there.

I said it before – it’s not my money.  It’s easy for me to say “Fire the guy.”  (It’s even easier for some of the other Citizens of Clips Nation to say it.)  Sterling and Roeser may well wait this entire season, simply because making a move will be expensive.  But there needs to be a limit to the patience plan.  Winning 20% of the games with this roster is not good enough.

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Finish out the season

I’d give Dunleavy the rest of the season…if we show little to no improvement, Sterling could look to Hughes for cheap I’m sure and either retain Dunleavy as GM or just banish him altogether. I’m not excited about any of the alternatives out there, Avery Johnson, Eddie Jordan (Playoff Record), etc, but if someone of substance becomes available, Sterling has to look at it. The Clippers still have that stigma, but they should spark some interest due to the talent on the roster and the new training facility, and of course L.A./ Staples Center aren’t bad places of real estate.

by ghost_ride on Dec 10, 2008 4:35 PM PST reply actions  

Great line

“Apparently, Roeser has been moonlighting writing Hallmark cards.”

by Jax on Dec 10, 2008 4:47 PM PST reply actions  

fire the guy

At least as coach. I dont think he’s done a bad job as GM. I dont blame him for Elton leaving, and he’s brought in Camby and Z-Bo for near nothing, i like both trades. The problem is the chemistry right now. The coach needs to handle that and i dont think Dunleavy can. Baron is our star guy, we need a coach who can exploit his strenghts and again, Dunleavy is not the guy. I think the Clips right now have the talent to be at least a #8 seed, their just not doing it. Thats the coach’s job.
Regarding who, I think Rambis is a great idea. I think he is waiting for his shot and would be a great coach. I also think Byron Scott would be awesome, although I dont think he would take the job. I do think he wants the Lakers job eventually.
I would love to make the Clips an uptempo team with Baron, EG and Thornton on the run, theyll be fun to watch!

by DocD on Dec 10, 2008 4:51 PM PST reply actions  

Byron Scott?

Apparently you are forgetting Baron’s history with Byron. If we’re concerned about finding the right coach to make Baron happy and productive, Byron Scott is not the guy.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 10, 2008 5:59 PM PST up reply actions  

true

i forgot about that. Still think hes a great coach, but maybe not for baron

by DocD on Dec 10, 2008 7:56 PM PST up reply actions  

What about getting Cassell to coach us? That would be fun

by C's Up on Dec 10, 2008 5:02 PM PST reply actions  

Cat Mobley as assistant coach

IT would be nice if these two guys came back. They were both great Clippers who loved playing here….whether any of them can do a better job, that’s debatable.

I love LAC.

by oasisman on Dec 10, 2008 6:56 PM PST up reply actions  

The answer is obvious...

EDDIE JORDAN.

Good lord…if only DTS wasn’t a complete moron.

by madglove on Dec 10, 2008 6:14 PM PST reply actions  

I'll give him 'til January

to improve the team. If not, I want him fired by then so we could get a head start for next year.

,,,Early in the year and were already supposed to look at next season.

Sigh,,,

Same old same old. Will it ever end?

by cliptakular on Dec 10, 2008 6:20 PM PST reply actions  

DTS should be looking for a replacement in the mean time

because I doubt that Dunleavy is going to turn this around at all. I would like to see Eddie Jordan be our coach but I still don’t think that DTS will do it he is too cheap.

by bestclipfan on Dec 10, 2008 6:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, give MDSr at least till Midseason

The truth is, Clips have been playing better since, the trade: ZBo, is just a vast improvement in talent. Nonetheless, hopefully things gel for our guys . I’ve been an ardent supporter of MDSr on this blog because 05-06 was such a great moment for me as a fan. Nonetheless, if we have a 10-42 record 52 games in, it will be time to pull the plug.

With that said, MDSr will get a lot of patience from Andy and DTS. Look at McHale in Minnesota. He just got relieved of his GM duties to coach the team, but that’s been after 8+ years since the Joe Smith debacle and countless GM errors. So if the owner likes the guy, its going to take a while…especially with MDSr getting promoted so recently.

I love LAC.

by oasisman on Dec 10, 2008 7:04 PM PST reply actions  

Playing hard.........

We do not play hard every night.
 We really never have done so consistently during MDsr’s tenure.

If Jerry Sloan were the coach would we have the same record? Would he stand for this nonsense night in and night out?

I don’t think so. We have got to make a move. Given the owner we have it probably won’t be until the end of his contract.

We suck as a team but have a helluva ROI.

by 69knicks on Dec 10, 2008 7:17 PM PST reply actions  

Hire Bill Walton

Since the season is over I’d keep Dunleavy till the end of the year to save money and get a good spot in the draft. I really don’t see Sterling gettting rid of him until he has less than a year left on his contract though.

by FireDunleavy.com on Dec 10, 2008 8:13 PM PST reply actions  

Bill Walton?

You’re kidding, right?

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 11, 2008 8:46 AM PST up reply actions  

How about this?

Walton and Cassell as co-head coaches.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Dec 11, 2008 10:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah

Just kidding, although I think it would be funny to watch.

by FireDunleavy.com on Dec 11, 2008 1:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Great post CS.

You bring up some great points on both sides. The one thing that I have to say, though, is that I am so sick of the “expensive” argument. I realize that it is completely reasonable, but the Clippers (mostly DTS) have to stop using it if the organization wants to be taken seriously. I’m not saying that I want Dunleavy fired right away and replaced with a high profile guy just because of the rep. I think that we leave Dunleavy in at coach and look at what is out there so that when the time comes we can make a good decision that fits these new look Clippers. Unfortunately, I don’t see that happening with the current ownership. I can’t stand excuses from this organization anymore. We need to get it done, some way, some how. That doesn’t mean hasty decision making, but it does mean that I expect the organization to at least look like they care.

A quick thought: Does anyone here have a nice get rich quick scheme? Then maybe the team would have some decent ownership and we could feel comfortable letting the people up top make an adequate decision.

by WestsideBrandon on Dec 10, 2008 8:56 PM PST reply actions  

Hey kids, let's buy an NBA team!

We can pool our of our money! My dad’s got a really great hoop in our driveway! Of course, all this assumes that DTS would sell the team. He’s a buy and hold guy.

Incidentally, I don’t think that DTS has ever actually USED the expensive argument. But by his actions, we know it to be a factor. And if you put on your business hat, it’s hard to argue. In the recent Forbes article, the Clippers cleared $9.9M in profit last season (winning 21 games). They were, I believe, 14th in profit, but something like 25th in total value. Meanwhile, several teams were losing money – some were losing a lot.

Assume that $10M is more or less what he would make at his current cost structure, now hire Eddie Jordan at $4M per. He just wiped out 40% of his profit for the next several seasons. I know, I know, he’s a billionaire and he’s still making money, etc. etc. But he’s a businessman, and if there’s ANY justification for keeping MDsr (he can call it patience or loyalty or consistency or building on a foundation or whatever or wants), then I think he’s going to avoid that additional expense.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 11, 2008 9:14 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree and have said as much (although not as articulately)

MDSr talked DTS into giving him what is effectively a fire-proof job for five years or whatever the term is. Perhaps the smartest move MDSr ever made.

by Jax on Dec 11, 2008 9:48 AM PST up reply actions  

Saunders, Jordan, et al…rethreads…If…that’s a big if, the Don decides to make a change, I like CS’ idea of bringing Rambis in…How about Danny Manning or even Michael Cooper?

"Duck, Crab. Crab, Duck"
Roger Sterling - Mad Men

by Lawler's Law on Dec 11, 2008 12:04 AM PST reply actions  

better yet...D Mac!

"Duck, Crab. Crab, Duck"
Roger Sterling - Mad Men

by Lawler's Law on Dec 11, 2008 11:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Screw the Lakers

Why bring in one of their guys?

by ghost_ride on Dec 11, 2008 9:56 AM PST reply actions  

believe it or not, i think some of those guys might have picked up a few

nuggets from Jackson…

"Duck, Crab. Crab, Duck"
Roger Sterling - Mad Men

by Lawler's Law on Dec 11, 2008 11:29 AM PST up reply actions  

MDsr's Talents

He’s a shrewd negotiator. He would make a good GM if he could get over his tendency to be a control freak.

He has not shown himself to be anything over an average coach.

by Newton Pham on Dec 11, 2008 10:29 AM PST reply actions  

Reason for owner to fire.

C.Steve…. a reason for management to make a change can come from the hit his wallet is taking vs. what it could potentially be reaping. Fan turnout is dwindling and these promotions do seem to be appeasing the decline. If a different coach can bring in production, specically speaking: Wins and excitement in play, it raises turn out, fattening the wallet. Better tv deals. …anyways. a change is needed. Good GM+mediocre Coach= 1 really bad headache. …i like Mario Elie, Mark Jackson…..Kimbo Slice….Donald Duck….. Cherokee Parks …..actually how about …

by Takebb909 on Dec 11, 2008 12:43 PM PST reply actions  

Obviously

Sure, a good team means better attendance, means more revenue. I get that.

I’m becoming convinced that DTS has figured something else out though. It’s easier to control costs than to win. In a market the size of LA, he can sell some number of tickets, and get a reasonable cable TV deal, just based on people wanting to watch the other team. Control costs, take your National TV money (split evenly with rev sharing, so that’s a pretty sweet deal), take the baseline attendance at Staples you get simply by existing in the NBA…. turn a decent profit.

I’m not advocating it. With only 30 owners in the NBA, this commodity is scarce enough that I would like to think that each and every one of them wants to compete as opposed to just milking the cash cow… but he’s in the club, and there’s no mechanism for kicking him out. Sadly.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 11, 2008 3:42 PM PST up reply actions  

But

He is paying players more than he has to, is paying a coach more than he has to, and has paid for a state of the art practice facility out of his own pocket.

So there is some evidence to the contrary.

by Jax on Dec 11, 2008 4:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Well

To be fair…

1) He’s only at the cap (in his defense by rule this year) which isn’t far from the minimum team salary. So he isn’t paying that much more than he has to.
2) He is paying a coach more than he has to, but that’s back to an argument not to push it in that regard.
3) He made a real estate investment in that practice facility. Its the only thing built in that whole lot. By paying “out of his own pocket” its a pure profit vehicle. I obviously don’t fault him for that, but all he did was create an asset for himself. When he sells the team he will sell the facility and reap the rewards of appreciation there as well. Not exactly an example of the grinch’s heart growing three sizes.

When Sterling pays the tax, he will have sold me that he is spending. Not one second sooner.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Dec 11, 2008 4:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Let me take those one at a time

(1) He didn’t have to sign EB and Maggette to long term deals; nor did he have to sign Cat and TT to long term deals. Let’s not just look at one year, this year.

(2) He didn’t have to sign MDSr to a long term deal or pay a coach anywhere near the amount of money he’s paying him. That was a horrible business decision by DTS if you want to view this from W-L or any performance standards over the past few years.

(3) Re the practice facility – first of all, does DTS own the land? If he does, it’s likely worth less now then when he bought it, assuming he bought it within the last few years. Second, assuming he does, nvestments like the practice facility will not pay off until he sells them (aside from the land). He didn’t have to spend millions and millions of dollars to build a practice facility there which generates no rent, except for rent paid by the team which otherwise would be profit. I wonder whether that facility is going to be worth anything to anyone other than a professional basketball team (or maybe a health club) in its current form if it’s sold. So, no, he did put substantial money in that he ain’t gonna get back soon if ever.

“Pure profit vehicle”? Um, no. And who knows what land values will be at when and if he ever sells.

Not sure just what it is that John R is not faulting DTS for.
Against him:

(1) He is not paying

(2) He’s got a skeleton crew staffing the team

(3) He is very cheap with travel

by Jax on Dec 11, 2008 5:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Typo

When I said he’s not paying, I mean that he’s not paying a GM

by Jax on Dec 11, 2008 5:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed

It’s certainly true that DTS has made investments in the team recently that were not at all his norm from before 2003 (or whenever Brand and Maggette extended). And I think that MDsr is to be credited for loosening up the purse strings, and I’ve mentioned that many times here.

But, paying a coach a top salary, and paying that coach that top salary to walk away, are to very different things. DTS is a ‘buy and hold’ guy – that’s how he made his money in LA real estate (and that goes to John R’s point above about the practice facility).

My bigger concern is that he’ll compare his different approaches, and revert to severe cost control mode. (I admit freely that it’s been awhile since he’s been in that mode – he didn’t have to approve the Camby trade, for instance.) It was looking good when they won 47 and a playoff series. But big boy money hasn’t resulted in success the last few seasons. Does he keep spending money, looking for more success? Or does he revert to the bad old days (which weren’t so bad from a profit standpoint), and go into cost control mode? It could go either way.

But I think he’s got an inclination, as well as a good excuse, to take a wait and see attitude on MDsr this season.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 11, 2008 5:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes

I’ve said here for a year that my biggest concern is that DTS will revert to the pre MDSr days now that it’s obvious that MDSr’s efforts haven’t borne much fruit. Particularly with no competent GM to guide him.

by Jax on Dec 11, 2008 5:49 PM PST up reply actions  

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