Time to make that trade with the Bobcats
by citizen bob on Dec 11, 2008 2:03 PM PST
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PrintNow that the Bobcats and the Suns have completed their trade, maybe it is time that the Clippers seriously thought about trading Kaman. Personally, I believe that Bell and Diaw would be a perfect fit for the Clippers. The Bobcats are desperate to get Kaman and would probably trade their new acquisitions for our backup center if we put the offer on the table. Kaman is irrelevant to the Clippers right now. Camby is a better fit to play alongside Randolph and improves our defense significantly. Kaman is oft injured and very unreliable. Bell and Diaw are solid performers on winning teams and have proven themselves over the years. They are rarely injured and can score in an above average manner for their positions. They could contribute immediately and drastically improve our team. We want to run more and these two players have experience in this strategy.
Eric Gordon is going to be great, but not immediately. In fact from what I have seen, it may take a couple of years. Raja Bell is an awesome defender with a 40% career 3 pointer – just what the Clippers need from their starting SG. Diaw is a solid backup forward that can score – something we are desperate for from our bench. With both Diaw and Gordon playing reserve roles, we can be assured that our backups will score more than 10 points as a unit in any given game and therefore give us a realistic chance of winning some games.
Once the trade restrictions have expired, I would offer Kaman and Ricky Davis (or Hart) for Diaw and Bell. Furthermore, I would also acquire Darius Miles to backup Thornton. Our depth chart would now be:
C = Camby / Davis / Jordan
PF = Randloph / Diaw / Skinner
SF = Thornton / Miles / (Davis)
SG = Bell / Gordon / Collins
PG = Davis / Taylor / (Hart)
From my perspective, this lineup addresses many of the weaknesses in our current team. Our starters shoot better, pass better and defend better. Our backups score better. The Bobcats have Okafor and Kaman anchoring the post. Everybody wins.
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The return of the bad trade ideas
Kaman’s injury shows us how much we need 3 good big men just in case another injury happens. Although I like Diaw and Bell I don’t think we need to make a trade until we see all three big men together for a little bit.
I disagree with your logic on this one
There is no way we are going to see the three big men on the court again (remember the first time – it looked terrible). All three big men are starters that should be playing 40mins per game. The two positions only have 96 minutes to share. That leaves Kaman playing just 16mins. With him on our team, our big men will get less time on the court and there will be absolutely no need for Paul Davis or Brian Skinner. I think Davis has played very well and deserves more than 0 minutes per game.
Furthermore, we NEED help at the SG position. This help will not come for free. We have just one player than other teams want and possibly available. That person is Kaman. If we don’t trade him, we don’t get help. It’s that simple.
There is plent of time for all three
There is 96 min in the PF and C positions combined which should be plenty of time for 3 players to split.
Of Course the Bobcats Would do That Trade
And it would become a turning point in Bobcat franchise history. Everyone would be in awe of the mind control abilities of Larry Brown and Michael Jordan. Well, they would be at least until the next trade they made.
Are you crazy? That’s one of the worst trade ideas anyone has come up with since I’ve read this blog. I’m a bit in shock that the Bobcats traded J-Rich and Dudley for a backup PF, a washed SG and a D-League PG, which is what Diaw, Raja and Singletary are. We don’t want them.
Are you insane?
Bell’s numbers have fallen because the Suns are slower than prior years. He is currently hitting 46% of his 3’s. Diaw is getting less time on the court but still he is hitting 57% of his shots. To call these two has-beens is retarded. Kaman has no ability to do anything other than score. He can’t handle any form of a double team and is undoubtably going to have a negative impact on Randolphs numbers. Speaking of Randolph, he has some of the best hands in the buisiness. Kaman has some of the worst. This trade is a slam dunk. Hardly any teams want Kaman – at least if they have to give up a starting player to get him. We finally have a suitor that is willing to sacrifice and what does the Clipper fans want? To sit on our asses and lose every game by doing nothing. Before you bash me, maybe you should put forth your own ideas on how to improve our SG position. From what i can tell, you are hoping that we can get a solid SG by trading our crap players or wishing to the basketball gods really hard. It just doesn’t work that way.
Kaman is also a pretty good defender and rebounder
and scoring is a big deal and Kaman is very good at it. And you definitely say that Zbo can only score so I don’t really see your point and like I said there is 96 min. to split among three players in two positions so there is plenty of time for them all.
I Don't Think I'm Insane?
But then who does? Maybe I am, but I don’t think so. Anyway, I want to be clear that I didn’t mean to put you down with my response, just your ridiculous trade proposal.
It’s not just that Bell or Diaw are has-beens. It’s more that they never were that good or at least not as good as what I’d want for Kaman. In their best years, they were complimentary players that fluorished in a high scoring system. They aren’t going to find an environment in LA that makes them look nearly as good. If we traded Mobley because he wasn’t in our future plans, why would we turn around and trade for Raja? EJ’s inexperience is only a small part of our problems, and it’s the part I can most live with since he’s only going to improve with experience. At any rate, Raja wouldn’t be an upgrade over EJ. Diaw is decent but not much of a difference maker.
How do you know that hardly any teams would trade a starter for Kaman? I think the reality is that a lot of teams would be very interested in Kaman, but they know he’s not available right now.
And how many trades would we have to make before it would become apparent to you that constant player turnover does not create a winning environment?
Trade Camby not Kaman
We can ALOT for Camby at the trade deadline. We’re not going to make the playoffs this year, we’d have to go about 40-20 the rest of the way, with many of the games on the road. Camby is 34 and turns 35 this March. A team like Portland has an embarassment of riches sitting on their bench, personally I think a trade for Hedo from ORL plus a draft pick makes alot of sense for both teams.
Or we could stand pat, see how it plays out. Trading a young talented big for an average SG and a overpaid combo forward makes no sense. They might not fit well right now but its no reason to sell low.
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities. -Christian Nestell Bovee
That's a no
It’s just not enough. Bell is 32; Diaw hasn’t been the same player for a few years. Neither would appear to be part of the solution in LA. Kaman is worth more than that, not to mention that we haven’t even seen him play with Z-Bo. Camby is 34 – Kaman and Z-Bo are 26 and 27. They may not fit together, but we don’t know that. We need to find out.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
I still don't understand
How does having 3 starters fight for two positions while leaving the most vital scoring position on team to a rookie that is simply not ready to start? I read your articles CS and from what I can tell you seem to like Paul Davis. Where does he fit in your gameplan with a healthy lineup?
Bell is an average wing, Diaw is inconsistent
Kaman is referenced as inconsistent but if you look at his numbers in the last two seasons, they have been really solid. Can you say the same for Diaw? There is a reason he is on the bench, a failed expectation.
Bell was great in one or two seasons and playoffs, does that make him proven?
So you want to give away a top 5-7 center (rare commodity) for an average G/F and PF/F?
The trade is absurd.
The premise is fine, but I disagree with the conclusion
I just think Kaman is worth more than Diaw and Bell. Kaman is theoretically a player the Clippers are building around. Why would you trade a player you’re building around for two players who don’t seem to fit into your future? I’d consider Camby for Diaw and Bell.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 11, 2008 8:01 PM PST up reply actions
This is the right track
But I think it would be more accurate to say, Diaw IS the same, but he is perceived differently because he is not getting the same minutes. Per 36 minutes, he is the same as he ever was. Maybe even better because his FG% and 3FG% are through the roof this year.
That said, I have no idea what Diaw IS and maybe neither does he and I don’t want him or his contract anywhere near the Clippers.
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
Here's the trade
Because I also rethought the Kaman situation in light of this trade.
Wallace, Bell, Augustin and a top 6 conditional 2009 (unrestricted for 2010) for Kaman, Davis2, and Hart.
If I’m trading big for small, I wants lots of small that fits the rotation.
If Charlotte doesn’t want that deal, there is no workable deal with them for Kaman.
Davis1/Augustin/Taylor
Bell/Gordon…………………../Collins
Wallace/Thornton/Novak
Randolph/Skinner
Camby/Davis3………………./Jordan
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
Ok...
This trade I would be in support of
That may be a more realistic trade talentwise, but
No way the Bobcats would do that. Even if you took out the draft pick, that trade would leave the Bobcats with Okafor, Kaman and not much else. Augustine is very well regarded in Charlotte and will be a big part of the team’s future. Wallace is the heart of the team and once again will be forced into being the #1 scoring option now that J-Rich is gone.
I really don’t think there ever was a realistic deal to be made with the Bobcats for Kaman, and after the J-Rich trade, I believe the chance of a trade went from slight to none.
I'd cry inside...
if the clippers had to pay boris freakin diaw 9 million per thru 2011/2012
by cantthinkofagoodname on Dec 11, 2008 3:43 PM PST reply actions
Wait...
I thought off the hook was a good thing. Is it good or bad that he is off the hook?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 11, 2008 7:59 PM PST up reply actions
Could go either way...
But he’s obviously stirring the pot during a boring three day break here, so this time it’s good.
Its easy to be critical
But I don’t see anybody but John R making alternative suggestions. You can bash me all you want, but our team is still very incomplete. We have nobody as a starting 2 and nobody as a backup 3. We have way too much money invested in the PF & C positions and not enough minutes to fill them properly. Face it Clipper fans – Kaman has very little trade value. Nobody has made a decent offer for him – ever. Camby is way better. The opportunity cost of Kaman is a starting SG and a backup SF. We have neither, nor do we have the assets or cap space to create it.
So I guess Clipper fans have finally accepted their fate. Once again we are the most underachieving team in professional sports and I am dismayed that the hard core fans seem to be OK with this turnaround. I understand the concept of sacrifice in order to get a team that is complete. For those that can’t comprehend this reality let me spell it out for you – our team is far from complete.
And for those intellectuals that think I am off the hook, I am yet to hear any good ideas from you. All I hear is why others ideas suck balls. You want to prove your intelligence, come up with a better idea that has some chance of succeeding. If you think status quo is just fine, then you are delusional in my book. What we have is not fine – that’s why we are losing. If you can think of a trade to get these important pieces without sacrificing Kaman, please share your wisdom. If not, shut the F up and let the creative minds do the thinking for you.
So I guess Clipper fans have finally accepted their fate. Once again we are the most underachieving team in professional sports and I am dismayed that the hard core fans seem to be OK with this turnaround. I understand the concept of sacrifice in order to get a team that is complete. Our team is not.
And for those intellectuals that think i am off the hook, I am yet to hear any good ideas for you. All I hear is why others ideas suck balls. You want to prove your intellegence, come up with a better idea. If you think status quo is just fine, then you arnt smart in my book.
Since when are bad ideas a sign of creativity?
If so, whenever I drink I’m very very creative! : )
I agree in part our roster does not fit together nicely which is why I was against the ZBo trade to begin with. We killed our cap room in 2010 with the trade. That being said we can’t make a move just to make a move which is what I think you are advocating. Adding two role players who are used to being on a winning team (and were malcontents this year) to a team already out of the playoffs makes zero sense. We would just continue to be a pretty mediocre at best team. We really need to stockpile some talent like the Blazers did and maybe add another talented young guy through the draft. We could trade Camby for draft picks and a talented youngster. Additional the way things are headed, we might end up with a top 5 pick would help us in the long term. Imaging if we add a Blake Griffin to our roster. We could then trade Z-Bo for better help.
Kaman does have value, legit 7 footers who can score with either hand, rebound well and block shots have alot of value. When guys like Erick Dampier are making 10m/year you better believe teams would trade for Kaman.
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities. -Christian Nestell Bovee
by ClipperChuck on Dec 11, 2008 6:09 PM PST up reply actions
Stop trying to trade players and
figure out a way for DTS to hire a competent GM. Start there. Then come up with a long term plan. Only then start trading players.
Here's a trade idea
Josh Howard for Chris Kaman straight up.
We’d get a SG/SF in his prime. Mavs would get a C in his prime.
The Mavs would have cap room in 2010 for Lebron signing. Kaman played with Dirk for Team Germany as well.
B Diddy
J Howard
Camby
Zbo
Al
With EJ, Taylor, Dudley, R Davis, Skinner off the bench. Not a bad core.
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities. -Christian Nestell Bovee
That would be sweet...
But I doubt the Mavs would want to trade their 2nd best player…and I don’t think Kaman made a strong enough impression playing with Dirk this summer for him to push for that trade either.
It would be a nice deal though. Howard could play Small Forward as well, so that would instantly turn our wing rotation into a strength. Taylor could continue his backup PG role, while Paul Davis spells Randolph. Of course, backup center becomes a weakness here, which is why they want to see how the current format works before trading it away.
The Mavs have gone 8-2 with Howard
Howard’s kind of a knucklehead so his value is down especially after the marijuana comment and the anthem comments he made during the off-season. The Mavs might see that their chemistry has been better with him out of the lineup.
Anyways I think its a feasible trade that both teams could benefit and we should hold out on trading Kaman for something like this package.
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities. -Christian Nestell Bovee
by ClipperChuck on Dec 12, 2008 3:39 AM PST up reply actions
Do you mean without?
8-2 without Howard? I did not know that. That’s pretty interesting.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 12, 2008 9:45 AM PST up reply actions
I'd definitely do that trade.
Minor advantage to us since Kaman is never on the floor.
Bell is a great perimeter defender, which we sorely need. Diaw would be the free-bee.
a free-bee???
I take it you haven’t seen his horrible contract…
by cantthinkofagoodname on Dec 12, 2008 12:03 AM PST up reply actions
But...
isn’t there supposed to be a certain time lapse before any of the new players could be traded?
can you say....
one of the worst trade ideas ever? As CS stated, Kaman is worth MUCH more than your proposed trade would bring back. Sorry, it’s just a terrible trade.
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
Again I challenge the "superior" minds here at Clips Nation
If you are going to state that the trade idea is “terrible”, then make a better one that has some chance of succeeding. Otherwise admit your inability to come up with better ideas and accept that you are fine with the Clippers progress and happy with their current (but dismal) lineup. The only trade piece available on the team is Kaman. Who can we get for him? We desperately need a starting SG. Otherwise, admit that you have no ideas (just critisism) and take a back seat to those that are willing to make hard decisions. If you feel that there is no need for hard decisions, then by default you have accepted the team and the record as is. Maybe you are one of the brainless that actually believe the Clips can run with Camby as the SF. LOL.
I swear this blog site has some hard core Kaman fans
Kaman fans are hard core. If you love him, he is the best center in the league. If you are not a hard core Clipper fan, he is one of the worst. From a record standpoint, I have to feel that he is the latter. From a skills perspective, maybe he is the former. Six years in the league and I think the proof is in the pudding. He is NOT an elite center in this league. Sorry for bursting your bubble guys. We should just be happy that we may get back two average bodies for his one average body. He plays no more than 75% of any given season and at least half of that is Kaman 1.0 not Kaman 2.0. That does not equate to an elite player in my book.
by citizen bob on Dec 12, 2008 10:05 AM PST up reply actions
Case and point.
Kaman is just serviceable. He’s not a game changer. He can’t take over a game if you just give him the ball.
Camby is more of a game changer than Kaman.
by cliptakular on Dec 12, 2008 10:14 AM PST up reply actions
Kaman frustrates more than any other Clipper in history.
Especially when he misses those chip-ins which sucks out the life out of the team as well.
by cliptakular on Dec 12, 2008 10:17 AM PST up reply actions
More than pothead era Odom?
More than Maggette?
More than Livingston?
More than Miller?
I would say this is not an informed opinion.
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
*Case in point
Also, it is true that Camby is worth more wins than Kaman, for now. But thats because Camby is top 5 in the league in wins produced, and Kaman is only top 40. Which isn’t bad considering there are 30 teams…
Look to move Kaman because it is a good deal, not for the sake of moving Kaman. That’s completely irrational.
But lets be fair, by your complaint that Kaman can’t take over a game if you just give him the ball, he certainly has a better chance of this than Camby? What is Camby going to do with the ball?
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
Who is saying he is the best?
But he is top third and produces on both offense and defense. He is an above average center being paid like an average one. You just don’t trade a top third center for a middling SG. You don’t have to be a partisan to say that.
You have failed to burst anyone’s bubble because you have failed to demonstrate that he isn’t an NBA starting center. You have stated your frustration with him, but the stats don’t bear out your opinions.
You are seeing increased resistance to your ideas because from game 0 through today the only time you pop up is to come up with a trade idea for Kaman. One might suggest the only partisan here is you. Did Kaman not sign your kids’ autograph or something?
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
Camby for Ai
Ai has no love right now in Detroit and they are in need of an interior presence.
by Newton Pham on Dec 12, 2008 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
First of all,
Camby is injury prone as well. If Kaman/Camby/Randolph were splitting time, I think we would be a much better team. We’ve only seen this scenario for ONE game. Let’s see how it looks with a healthy Kaman.
Secondly, I shouldn’t have to come up with a trade idea just because you came up with a bad one. That’s just retarded. According to your logic and demands, anytime a person posts a trade proposal, we all MUST retort with another trade if we disagree? I’d prefer to simply say: “Your trade idea sucks”. If at somepoint I decide that I have a decent trade swirling in my brain, I’ll share it with you. Promise. But right now, I don’t see any reasonable trades on the horizon.
Thirdly, we do not desperately need a starting SG. We are a terrible team that is going NOWHERE this season. The best thing we can do, is provide Air Gordan with plently of PT and help him develope into an elite wing.
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
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