Clippers at Indiana - Game Preview and Open Thread
Los Angeles Clippers @ Indiana
| 2008/2009 NBA Regular Season | ||
|---|---|---|
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vs. |
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| 7-18 | 9-16 |
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| Conseco Fieldhouse |
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| December 19th, 2008, 4:00 PM | ||
| KTLA Channel 5 (5:30 PM) |
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| Probable starters: | ||
| Baron Davis |
PG | Jarrett Jack |
| Eric Gordon |
SG | Marquis Daniels |
| Al Thornton |
SF | Danny Granger |
| Zach Randolph |
PF | Troy Murphy |
| Marcus Camby |
C | Jeff Foster |
The Big Picture:
Well, the Clippers 3 game winning streak ended in Chicago Wednesday night in Overtime, but the team is still playing good basketball. And if you think about it, the streak of not losing in regulation is still alive! The lack of depth is really starting to show. The injuries to Chris Kaman and Ricky Davis are obviously the biggest reason for that, but don't forget the Zach Randolph trade. Both Tim Thomas and Cat Mobley are capable scorers, whereas Mardy Collins is not. This, of course, is the canard of the bench scoring question. I think we all realize that the Clippers are better with Zach and Mardy than they were with Cat and Tim. But it did remove a bench scorer from the rotation. At the end of the game, you have to have more points on the scoreboard than the other team, and it doesn't matter where those points came from. The Clippers starters are on a pretty good roll - all except for the leader, Baron Davis. Baron 40 for 114 in his last five games (35%) and has only been to the line 14 times in that span. He's been an effective distributor (he had a dozen assists Wednesday), but the team needs more scoring and more efficiency from him. Overall, when I look at these two rosters, there's really no reason the Clippers should not win this game. So naturally I'm concerned.
The Antagonist:
The Pacers are very, very hard to figure. After opening the season 5-5, including a shocking win over the Celtics, they proceeded to lose 11 of their next 13 - but one of those wins was over the Lakers. So go figure. They've won two straight - over two of the worst teams in the league, the Wizards and the Warriors. Of course, the Clippers still fit into that category record-wise, so the Pacers are no doubt hoping to make it 3 in a row. Forward Danny Granger leads the Pacer, and is fifth in the entire NBA in scoring at 24.4 points per game. The guys in front of him are named Dwyane, LeBron, Dirk and Kobe. Oh yeah, and he was on the board when the Clippers drafted Yaroslav Korolev in 2005. Ooops. Granger is coming off a career-high 41 on Wednesday. The Pacers played without TJ Ford and Troy Murphy Wednesday, and have been missing Mike Dunleavy Jr. all season, so they could be very short handed tonight. (Ford and Murphy are listed as day-to-day, but it looks like Murph will play while Ford is a game time decision.)
The Subplots
- Eric Gordon Homecoming. Less than two years ago, Eric Gordon was playing in the state championship in Conseco Fieldhouse for North Central High (they lost). It's an interesting trip for EJ, who got booed in Chicago by Illini who are still bitter over the fact that he reneged on a verbal commitment to attend Illinois and ended up at rival Indiana instead. And of course there's that whole 'costing the Clippers the game' thing. You can bet EJ is hoping to have a big game in his home town, because he'll have lots of people in attendance, and because he wants to bounce back from the Bulls loss. His one year with the Hoosiers was traumatic - he and the team started off on fire, but an injury to EJ, a recruiting scandal, a coaching change, and apparently drug use on the team, conspired to scuttle the season. It's also a homecoming for Zach Randolph, who played his High School ball in Indianopolis as well.
- Granger. In almost any draft, you can look at players in hindsight and say, "We should have drafted that guy." So, for instance, Dirk Nowitzki turned out to be a slightly better pro than Michael Olowokandi. We should have drafted Nowitzki, right? But no one other than Don Nelson knew anything about Dirk at the time of the 1998 draft, and there wasn't a single person in the NBA - not even Nelson - who would have taken Nowitzki (who wasn't even playing in the top German league at the time) with the number 1 overall pick. But the Granger-Korolev 'Monday-morning-quarterbacking' is different. Granger was the known quantity, and Korolev was the stretch - ironically, a Nowitzki-like stretch for a young, skilled big playing in a junior level European-league. Everyone seemed to know that Granger was falling too far as he fell all the way to Indy at 17. Still, I don't think anyone envisioned him averaging 24.4 points per game.
- Z-Bo. Randolph has been on a tear, scoring at least 30 points in 3 of his last 4 games and 21 or more in every game he has started for the Clippers. I see no reason for that to end tonight. Indiana really only plays three bigs: Troy Murphy, Jeff Foster and Rasho Nesterovic, and I don't see any of them handling Zach one on one.
- Coaching Changes. With all of the coaching changes this season, tonight's game features half of the survivors. There are only 4 coaches in the NBA with losing records who survived the off-season and the first two months of this season, and these are two of them. We know why MDsr has been able to avoid the ax - he's got a long term contract and the owner is very averse to spending extra money. It's hard to say what's going on with Jim O'Brien and the Pacers. Of course, it's not necessarily a good thing that firing your coach is the new normal, so if Larry Bird thinks that O'Brien is doing a good job with what he's got, then that's great.
- Tape Delay. For some reason, just when Channel 9 wised up and quit delaying east coast Laker broadcasts, Channel 5 decided to take up the practice. Tonight's game tips at 7 in Indianapolis, which is 4 Pacific Time, but the broadcast starts an hour and a half later at 5:30. This presents a bit of a dilemma for those of you have already discovered the interwebs. If you are watching the local broadcast on Channel 5, you probably want to stay away from this thread, as much as it pains me to say that. I'll create another thread, that won't show the score, for the locals in case you want to discuss what you are watching with less possibility of spoiling the surprise.
- Superstar for one game. T.J. Ford has killed the Clippers in the past, but he may not play tonight. Jarrett Jack has been a problem too, but that was last year against the Clippers teeny-tiny point guards. I don't see him being the kind of guy that will be a problem against Baron Davis. Let's go with Marquis Daniels. He's a streaky scorer - if an unlikely guy is going to go off against the Clippers, it's Daniels. Then again, I'm literally always wrong on these.
- Get the Pacers perspective at Indy Cornrows.
Comments
Squandered Lottery Picks
I can’t think of anything that’s hurt this team more that the constant squandering of lottery picks over the years. Yes DTS is the worst owner in basketball and his cheap ways have definitely crippled this team. But even since he’s displayed a willingness to change over the last 6 years (The Dunleavy Era), the bad picks have continued.
Since 2002:
- Wilcox instead of Amare
- Livingston instead of Devin Harris
- Korolev instead of Danny Granger
Those three have really crippled this franchise. Not just because we passed on All-Star caliber players, but because the guys we picked instead have been such complete failures. When THREE lottery picks in the last 6 years aren’t even on the team anymore, that’s an F-.
Granger to me represents the most egregious failure of all. Like you said Steve, it’s not just because he turned out to be better than Korolev, but because EVERYONE knew that Granger should have been the pick, and because Korolev isn’t even 12th man material.
Still pains me…
by madglove on
Dec 19, 2008 11:46 AM PST
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Me too
I’ll never forget MDSr’s smug televised response to a reporter question at the time of the Korolev pick – something to the effect that he knows better than anyone else about such picks and anyone who questions his judgment is stupid.
by Jax on
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 PM PST
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uh...a bit of artistic license there?
I highly doubt that’s an accurate summary of his comments. C’mon, who are you? FireDunleavy.com?
by madglove on
Dec 19, 2008 12:17 PM PST
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Just giving you my impression of his comments at the time
They are what they are.
And I’m “NotABigFanOfDunleavyButHopingHe’llTurnTheSeasonAround.Com”
by Jax on
Dec 19, 2008 12:28 PM PST
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Livingston over Devin Harris
Wasn’t so bad, no one could have known he would get severely injured.
by Newtybar on
Dec 19, 2008 12:28 PM PST
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cant blame them for Livi
he looked good and was good when he wasn’t injured. And our drafting is getting much better sense. Al and Gordon both seem like good picks.
by bestclipfan on
Dec 19, 2008 12:42 PM PST
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He wasn't that great before he got injured
It’s a hard call and a big gamble picking someone out of highschool that frail. Probably should have known better. Maybe if they had great draft picks other years, you let that slide, but you start to see a pattern.
by FireDunleavy.com on
Dec 19, 2008 2:43 PM PST
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Okay to be bitter but...
I don’t mean to minimize your distress, MG. We all wish it could have been different. And it’s harder when you see Devin Harris and Danny Granger really coming of age.
But it’s still really just the Korolev pick, and it’s funny when it’s put into the context of the Nowitzki/Olowokancer discussion.
The Wilcox/Amare pick is fairly similar to Kancer instead of Nowitzki. Wilcox was the safe and obvious pick. Amare wasn’t as much of a dark horse as Nowitzki, but that one seemed like it made sense. If the Clips had taken Amare, he would have been bad and injured or both, probably, and Wilcox would have been incredible. Right?
Livingston-Harris is a good example of this. Harris seemed very good, but Livingston had the potential to be great. He was okay, and then horribly injured. It wasn’t a super-safe pick, but it was defensible and just a sad, painful story in the end.
And MD was riding high and the Clips were on the upswing and he thought he had found Nowitzki when he picked Korolev. Oops—not playing it safe there.
But my theory is that the struggles of these picks, and especially the Korolev pick, is what got the Clips Thornton, which was a gift, and he was older and ready to play. So these days I’m comparing Granger to Thornton, and hoping AT can get better and compete.
Who should the Clips have picked instead of Darius Miles? Put it this way: things go wrong. A lot.
The other one I like now is Davis3 instead of Millsap.
by citizen zhiv on
Dec 19, 2008 2:00 PM PST
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I can certainly appreciate Zhiv's opinion
but I disagree. Management needs to be held accountable for mistakes. I doubt Zhiv is qualified to determine whether these draft picks were not competently made. He did not work them out, did not have inside information and is only speculating as are the rest of us. All we can really do is look at results. Where as here we have a situation where poor picks are made year after year, you should question these decisions. Otherwise all you are doing is enabling poor management decisions.
I would suggest that we don’t any longer come at this from the position of “wishing” that things would be different. Demand competence and accountability.
I also disagree as discussed in a previous recent post that Thornton was a “gift.” It was, unlike some of the other picks, a reasonably good pick given where he was, where the Clippers were, etc., but there were other picks available there that were arguably better or better for the team – such as Stuckey.
by Jax on
Dec 19, 2008 2:13 PM PST
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Oh Yeah!
Well done, Jax. I completely forgot about “the whole Stuckey thing.” Hilarious.
Accountability is nice. But it’s still something of a crapshoot. And there’s also pre-Dunleavy and the Dunleavy era. We don’t know what Dunleavy would have done with the Olowokandi or Wilcox picks. We do know that he gambled with the Korolev pick and got burned badly. He gambled to a certain, lesser degree on Liv over DHarris, and got burned on that one as well.
I like Eric Gordon, I have to say.
Maybe you and JohnR, no fan of BDavis, can team up for once and we can go back to Stuckey discussions, especially since Thornton isn’t perfect. Yeah I know, bad idea, and highly unlikely.
by citizen zhiv on
Dec 19, 2008 3:23 PM PST
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LOL - I was looking for an opportunity - you caught me
I like Gordon too.
by Jax on
Dec 19, 2008 3:31 PM PST
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AT vs. Granger
Shouldn’t make anyone feel better. Granger is only 1 year older than Thornton and already twice the player. It’s not even close.
And while I appreciate your opinion too zhiv, in the end, you can ALWAYS make excuses for every single mistake. We all play the role of apologist at various times, but after a while, you kind of have to step back and accept certain fatal flaws.
Just read your own post back to yourself. What struck me was – why do we constantly take gambles that turn out to be complete busts??? Good teams take CALCULATED gambles. What that means is that they put in the time and work to know things other teams don’t know. So what looks like a gamble to everyone else isn’t. Bad teams take shots in the dark because they THINK that’s what the good teams are doing. Guess which category we fall under?
by madglove on
Dec 19, 2008 3:25 PM PST
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OK MG, now read YOUR post
Amare versus Wilcox? Which one was the gamble? High schooler Amare. Wilcox was the best player on a national championship team.
So you apparently want to hold management responsible for gambling when it doesn’t pay off, and then for not gambling when it would have paid off. Tough standard.
And that’s the point really. What’s the standard? If the standard is to make the PERFECT pick in every draft, that bar is pretty high. Livingston was on his way to be a great player. I was thrilled with where that pick was going. Too bad his knee exploded, followed 18 months later by Devin Harris exploding. (On that same meme, aren’t you glad you’re not a Dallas fan. I mean, obviously even the team that drafted him and played him for almost 4 seasons didn’t know how good he was – yet you and Jax want GM’s to know the future based on a couple of workouts.)
Korolev was a horrible, horrible pick. Livingston had a devastating knee injury. But guess what? Their money is now paying Marcus Camby and Zach Randolph.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on
Dec 19, 2008 3:54 PM PST
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Funny
Easier to let Dallas slide on Harris when they otherwise have done pretty well.
I agree that Livingston was a pretty weak pick from the beginning. Physically many felt he couldn’t handle it in the NBA.
Still working on you CS. You’re coming around. I hold management responsible for losing records year after year after year.
by Jax on
Dec 19, 2008 4:26 PM PST
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Thoughts on EB's season so far?
It was pure luck on the Clippers part they aren’t being subjected to his disaster of a year. But by your logic MDSr should get credit for this, when also by your logic its his fault EB isn’t here. Depends what day it is which version of your logic you want to use I guess.
So credit to Clippers’ management they aren’t grossly overpaying for a below average power forward who gets his coach fired or…?
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
by John R on
Dec 19, 2008 7:44 PM PST
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Yawn
After belatedly realizing that he had no idea how to coach the team he hand picked, MDSr found a team willing to discard a career malcontent for $45 million or so.
And MDSr got lucky and found the one player whose style works well in his boring antiquated ISO system. Good for him.
Now has tools he seems to feel comfortable working with. Let’s see what happens.
We do know one thing – John R will continue to make love to all things MDSr and rip any player who takes an ill advised shot. Remember, however, that it is always the poor carpenter who blames his tools.
by Jax on
Dec 19, 2008 9:42 PM PST
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Superstar for One Game
Did anyone note that CS’ last pick, Tyus Thomas, went out with a concussion after playing how many minutes—2? Nocioni would have been a better choice I think, and I assume he qualifies for the official honor roll.
So now we don’t have to worry about Marquis Daniels, who I wouldn’t have known enough to worry about anyway. Jarrett Jack seems like a solid candidate. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Murphy put up his best game of the season, except that he’s banged up I guess.
by citizen zhiv on
Dec 19, 2008 1:32 PM PST
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I had this dream...
That Jason Hart made a 3 pointer…I checked his stats today and noticed he hasn’t hit a three so far this year. Maybe a phychic dream? Probably not, but it’d be nice.
by ghost_ride on
Dec 19, 2008 2:31 PM PST
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He's made a couple in his life
Last time he was a Clipper he hit a few. Mostly that corner three, IIRC.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on
Dec 19, 2008 3:56 PM PST
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19 seconds left clips down by 3
it should have never been this close. indy missing 4 key players…
by cantthinkofagoodname on
Dec 19, 2008 6:31 PM PST
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god just pray that
eric gordon doesnt foul
by highriser on
Dec 19, 2008 6:34 PM PST
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OT AGAIN?
seriously! why didnt he call timeout after the steal?
by highriser on
Dec 19, 2008 6:38 PM PST
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up by 1!
camby with all our ot points..
by cantthinkofagoodname on
Dec 19, 2008 6:42 PM PST
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down by 2
darn rush and his 3!
by cantthinkofagoodname on
Dec 19, 2008 6:44 PM PST
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last shot!
lets go clips.
salvage the game!
by cantthinkofagoodname on
Dec 19, 2008 6:47 PM PST
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up by 2
mcroberts 2 free throws
by cantthinkofagoodname on
Dec 19, 2008 6:55 PM PST
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still up 2
but zbo turned it over
109 107
by cantthinkofagoodname on
Dec 19, 2008 6:57 PM PST
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bdavis to the line
on another Indiana turnover (25 total)
by cantthinkofagoodname on
Dec 19, 2008 6:59 PM PST
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up by 4
on barons free throws
(skinner in for zbo???)
by cantthinkofagoodname on
Dec 19, 2008 6:59 PM PST
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they wont need randolph
all they need is defense and fouling, just dont screw up from there
by highriser on
Dec 19, 2008 7:01 PM PST
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eg for 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
clips up 7!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by cantthinkofagoodname on
Dec 19, 2008 7:02 PM PST
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indiana another turnover! 26 total
z bo back!
by cantthinkofagoodname on
Dec 19, 2008 7:04 PM PST
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clips up 5 with 45 seconds
baron to the line
by cantthinkofagoodname on
Dec 19, 2008 7:05 PM PST
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baron to the line again
up by 8
by cantthinkofagoodname on
Dec 19, 2008 7:08 PM PST
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we won!
it was an ugly game.
by cantthinkofagoodname on
Dec 19, 2008 7:09 PM PST
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117-109 clippers. stats that stand out...
Indiana 25 turnovers, clippers 18
zbo went for 34 and 16 again, It’s becoming routine to see on the boxscore.
Also zbp and camby were the only starters to shoot at least 50%
camby had 20 and 12
thornton had 25 on 8-19 but only had 2 rebounds and 1 assist
baron 5-18… for 18 points… ouch, he did have 11 assists though…
our bench had a total of 5 points again
mike taylor has an injured finger, which means more hart (2 points and 1 assist in 10 mins tonight.)
lastly and probably the most important point, all 5 starters logged close to 50 minutes…
by cantthinkofagoodname on
Dec 19, 2008 7:16 PM PST
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Phew
Almost had to criticize the coach tonight. Going to Baron to win in the first OT? I’m not fond of that decision. That kid is terrible. I would feel a little better if we got thrown one of those self-awareness stories right about now. “Baron is worried about his slump and arrived early for extra jumpers…”
5-2 over the last 7. Clippers 0-2 in single overtimes, 2-0 in doubles. What does that mean? Nothing. Overtime is a good percentage luck.
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
by John R on
Dec 19, 2008 7:37 PM PST
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Its going to be a troubling game tomorrow
They are super-tired and have no bench. How will they fare tomorrow? Who knows? The Bucks have an OK core and an OK bench, so who knows how the Clips will fare? If ZBo or anyone of the starters get into foul trouble, the Clips are finished.
I love LAC.
by oasisman on
Dec 19, 2008 8:07 PM PST
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I love the reactions by the guys on the pacers blog
thought they were getting the win tell Al hits the 3.
On another note, maybe ZBO should be considered for the all star game. I mean he is definitely putting up all star numbers, 21 points every night and 3 30 point games in a week those sound like all star numbers to me. Although no way he is going to get voted on but maybe Dunleavy can make his case to the other coaches and get him voted on as a sub. He probably would be the only clipper there since I don’t see BD getting voted on (only one sub per position right?) unless he gets put on as a SG.
by bestclipfan on
Dec 19, 2008 9:11 PM PST
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i think its actually guards and forwards
i dont think they make the distinction between SF,PF abd PG, SG when deciding for the all star game, agree ZBO is putting all star numbers
by XXDC2XX on
Dec 19, 2008 11:18 PM PST
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