Maggette for...
I'm going to try to keep a running log of potential Corey Maggette trades. By potential, basically I mean someone somewhere thought of it, and it's not entirely outside the realm of possibility. So for instance I'm not listing Maggette for Josh Howard, because Dallas isn't going to do that deal.
Remember that we're talking about a sign and trade, and that the more Maggette gets in his new contract, the more complex the deal becomes under the Base Year Compensation rules.
This is just an index. I'll try to give the basics of the idea, where it came from, how it might happen, etc. I'll also provide links to more detail as appropriate.
- Maggette for Jose Calderon - This is the Holy Grail of Maggette trades, but it is highly unlikely for a few reasons. For one thing, Calderon will be in great demand. For another, the Raptors would rather trade T.J. Ford. So even if you accept that the Raptors have to trade one of those guys, there are probably 10 teams who would like an upgrade at the point. That makes 20 permutations, of which Calderon to the Clippers is just one. The other complicating factor is the BYC rules. The deal is impossible as a one for one - even if Maggette and Calderon each signed for identical new contracts. The NBA - where unnecessarily complex salary cap rules happen. UPDATE 6/04/08 - Toronto has re-iterated their intention to keep Calderon. This one is not looking good.
- Maggette for T.J. Ford - I haven't seen this rumor in print or anything, but it's a logical offshoot of the above situation. If Toronto indeed has an interest in Maggette (and it certainly is a very good fit), then they'll no doubt offer Ford. And in direct contrast to any Calderon deal, Maggette for Ford is incredibly simple. They can be swapped straight up, almost regardless of Maggette's new contract (he can sign for up to $10.4M starting, to be specific). UPDATE 6/04/08 - See above, but Toronto is saying they have 5 or 6 teams interested in Ford. It's looking more and more like Ford will be moved, and Calderon will remain in Canada.
- Maggette for Jason Terry - This deal was supposedly done last summer, according to MDsr, before Donald Sterling nixed it. The deal remains very doable in terms of salary cap rules. Even if the BYC kicked in, the Clippers could include a little more in salary ($1M to $2M, like Josh Powell or Brevin Knight) and get it done. Terry's a better fit for the Clippers needs next season. But he's older, and costs more (though likely not more than a re-signed Maggette). I'm not sure he's worth $42M over the next 4 years.
- Maggette for Hedu Turkoglu - Tim Povtak of the Orlando Sentinel linked these two last week . Basically, Maggette started his career in Orlando and still has a house there. Turkoglu is the salary they have that would make it work. The idea that Maggette fits better than Hedo (they need a two, Lewis wants to play the three, Battie will be back to play the four) seems a little dubious since Maggette isn't really a two, and Hedo's a better play maker anyway. And as good as Hedo is, it doesn't make any sense for the Clippers really, since they're already very deep in the frontcourt, and very shallow in the backcourt. Would JJ Redick tossed into the deal make it worthwhile? As it happens, Orlando would have to put in another salary, right in Redick's range, if Corey is to get the raise he wants. But I still don't see it.
- Maggette for Michael Redd - Here's what we think we know. The Bucks are shopping Redd (makes sense) and they need a new starting small forward who can score (since Redd will be gone). So if that's true, it would seem that Milwaukee might be interested in this deal. But would the Clippers? Redd has a max contract, but does not appear to be a max player, at least not in the win column. It's pretty tough to take that on, although Redd is exactly the type of scoring two the Clippers really need. Maggette and Cat Mobley for Redd would work under cap rules. So would Maggette and Tim Thomas.
- Along the same lines as Maggette for Redd are Maggette for Arenas or Maggette for Davis. These are highly paid stars, who may or may not be available (either can opt out, Davis is not happy). Any trade would be a blockbuster, and Maggette could be a major piece.
- UPDATE 5/25/08 - Maggette for Kirk Hinrich - I haven't seen this specific trade discussed, but Hinrich is on the block, and the Clippers are one of the teams interested, according to Mitch Lawrence in the NY Daily News. The salaries are a decent fit, and a pretty easy deal to get done - although the Clippers would have to include another body if Maggette's deal is too big and the BYC rules are invoked. But I don't really see why the Bulls would necessarily want to do it.
- UPDATE 6/04/08 - Maggette for Mike James, Rasual Butler and two first rounders. OK, this is total wild blogger speculation. But New Orleans needs to get to the line more, and Maggette can do that. On the surface, the Hornets trading two end of the bench guys for a 22 point a game scorer seems very one-sided, but the reality of the Clippers' lack of backcourt depth and lack of shooting means that James and Butler could both help. More importantly, they are signed for only two seasons, which means basically at worst it's pretty much only a one season mistake. In 2009, they are super tradeable as expiring contracts, or in 2010 they're gone (with Mobley and Thomas) in time to make a max offer to a free agent like Dwyane Wade. Does that make it a win-win? That's too strong a description, but it could actually work out.
- UPDATE 6/24/08 - Maggette for Leandro Barbosa. This rumor has made the rounds, most visibly from Chad Ford at ESPN. Oh, and then Andy Katz said that it's not happening in a subsequent chat. So take it for what it's worth. The most common form of this deal has the teams swapping first round picks also, which means the Clippers trade down from 7 to 15. Seems like a pretty steep price to pay for the 'right' to trade your leading scorer to a team desperate for a starting small forward. Yes, Barbosa is a better fit for the Clippers roster right now, by virtue of being a guard. No, Barbosa would not seem to be a good fit with MDsr, who likes a paint-by-numbers approach on offense.
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I AM sure that Terry is not worth $42M over 4 years
but he is a good fit.
I don’t think Washington needs another 3, but G.S. wouldn’t mind if Nellie is back. So the Davis trade seems more likely than Arenas.
I like the Redd trade, but I don’t like his contract. Or his defense.
I thought Maggette for Turk would have been good last year, but we need guards at this point.
by mikey p on
May 23, 2008 3:16 PM PDT
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how important is defense?
I’m not saying you’re wrong or anything, but all Redd would have to do is work on perimeter defense; we still have 2 of the best shot blockers in the league around the rim in EB and Kaman.
by cantthinkofagoodname on
May 24, 2008 8:25 AM PDT
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Hinrich
Mark Heisler reported that Bulls are shopping Hinrich… they feel he’s not a true point… (11 to 12 points and 6 assists this year). I doubt Chicago is looking for a player like Maggette, probably looking for a 4 or a 5, but he certainly upgrades their roster if they pick Derrick Rose. The only true points in the lottery are Rose and D.J. Augustin, but Augustin’s only 5’10”. The rest are combo guards… or shoot-first points. But that raises another question… wasn’t (isn’t) Cassell a shoot-first point? And weren’t the Clips most effective the last three years when Cassell was most effective… shooting or playing a two man game with EB? So if you do a sign and trade with Maggette for a Hinrich or even T.J. Ford, draft a combo guard like Gordon, Bayless, or even Westbrook, and hope that Livingston can give you some minutes, you suddenly have a deep, flexible backcourt.
by swamigusto on
May 25, 2008 9:44 AM PDT
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re: Hinrich
Does anyone know what Hinrich’s actual contract looks like? The salaries listed on the various sites (HoopsHype etc.) don’t make any sense. Nonetheless, Hinrich’s contract is too long and too expensive. The other major concern is Hinrich’s play this year. Boy did he stink. He completely forgot how to shoot. To me, it looks like he’s already peaked as a player. I’d rather have Hinrich than go into the season with only Liv and Knight, but he’s nowhere near the best option available.
by supac on
May 25, 2008 2:42 PM PDT
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5 years/$47.5M
But it is a strange deal, in that it is front loaded – he gets paid LESS each subsequent year. ShamSports is the site I trust for this stuff and he’s a Chicago guy, so especially for Hinrich I think he has it right. I also read somewhere that trading him will invoke BYC rules, but that doesn’t seem right. He’s starting the second year of this contract – he should be fair game to trade starting 6/30, I think. John R? What say you? So, I THINK his cap number in a trade this summer is $10.25M.
The NY Daily News does indeed list the Clippers as one of the teams that will make a run at Hinrich, but I just don’t see it. Maggette’s a Chicago guy, but do they need him when they have Deng? I guess it all depends on how much they want to get rid of Hinrich – they could swap him for another scorer in Maggette, and then let Deng or Gordon sign somewhere else, I suppose.
A Maggette-Hinrich deal is one of those that’s easier to get done, the less Maggette makes. If he takes a raise that stays below the BYC threshold (a 20% raise) he can be traded for Hinrich straight up. If he wants more than that, the deal gets more complex and the Clippers would have to put some more salary in (like maybe Brevin Knight to mentor Derrick Rose?)
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by Steve Perrin on
May 25, 2008 4:34 PM PDT
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Oh, I forgot
I got so caught up in talking about Hinrich’s deal, I forgot to comment on Hinrich the player. Obviously it’s worrisome to be trading for the player from 2 seasons ago, hoping that last season’s player was the anomaly. Still, he was a solid pro for several seasons, and was looking like a legitimate NBA point guard. He put up PERs above 15 in 04-05 and 05-06, followed by a career high of 17 in 06-07, before settling back to a career low of 13 last season. So which is it gonna be? I think that he needs a change of scenery, and that getting away from Scott Skiles will do him a lot of good. Of course, he wasn’t much better under Jim Boylan last year. USA Basketball thought enough of the guy to put him on the roster for the World Championships, for what that’s worth.
His descending salary isn’t that bad – I’d rank him behind Calderon and ahead of Ford on ‘Point guards I’d like to trade Corey maggette for’.
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by Steve Perrin on
May 25, 2008 4:45 PM PDT
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our draft pick
i wonder if chicago would be interested if we included our draft pick. Not sure how all this cap stuff works, but our pick/mobley/thomas might get them interested. If they select rose with the first pick, they can use the seventh pick on a guy like kevin love to help their inside game.
by clipschamps on
May 25, 2008 7:44 PM PDT
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Hinrich can't shoot
and he’s not well-liked in Chicago. He lost his confidence last year. I wouldn’t trade for him. They (hopefully) can do better.
by Jax on
May 25, 2008 9:21 PM PDT
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Maggette for Hinrich is kinda awful
If they are seriously considering grabbing Rose over Beasley (a good decision) maybe they would sell for less. Say, a crafty veteran with a much sooner to be expiring contract. Bulls get thier PG of the future and clear his path to starting, reduce future salary to help keep their core intact, and add a $10M expiring contract for next year.
Chicago should have sold high with Hinrich if they had the chance. I wouldn’t offer more than Mobley and a second round pick at this point. Maybe the Bulls can get more than that. Maybe not.
Hinrich will probably revert to old form, which is to say slightly above average. His overall FG% is not great, but he hits the 3. Even last season’s career low .350 is an acceptable clip, equating out to better than 50% on 2’s. He has a solid, but unspectacular A/TO ratio. He would fit with what the Clippers are trying to do, but is certainly not the ideal choice at this point.
If you can do this trade without giving up Maggette or the #7, I’d feel much better about taking a flyer on Gordon if he is the best combo left on the board. If he isn’t working out some combination of Maggette, Livingston and Ross can soak those minutes.
by John R on
May 27, 2008 12:01 PM PDT
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Lots of moving parts
We’ll see how badly the Bulls want to get rid of the guy. If indeed they are leaning towards Rose, they may value future cap flexibility pretty highly. At which point Mobley becomes a better fit than a re-signed Maggette. With Hughes’ deal still on the books for two seasons, the Bulls are a good candidate for a 2010 strategy (although new deals for Deng and Gordon could be problematic there).
Let’s be clear on Hinrich: I am fairly certain that MDsr LOVES the guy. He can run a team, he’s a solid defender, he can shoot threes. The things he doesn’t do (lead a break, break down defenders with the dribble) are things MDsr’s never shown a lot of interest in. I feel pretty sure that MDsr likes Hinrich over Gordon. So I won’t be surprised if the Clippers offer more than you or I would. It remains to be seen (a) if he really is being shopped and (b) what other teams are willing to offer.
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by Steve Perrin on
May 27, 2008 2:03 PM PDT
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He would have been shopped regardless - not the answer
by Jax on
May 27, 2008 3:29 PM PDT
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So...
He shouldn’t be looked at at any price?
If he could be had for essentially free?
by John R on
May 27, 2008 3:59 PM PDT
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Any deal...
for Heinrich NOT involving Maggette, Brand, Kaman, Thorton or the #7 pick should at least be given consideration. You would be remiss to NOT think about it, considering the number one priority is to get a TRUE point guard. Thats not happening in this draft (for the Clippers anyway), and Knight should be the backup, not the starter.
by Clip Show on
May 27, 2008 4:10 PM PDT
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Sorry, he wouldn't be "free" - check his contract
As Supac noted, he sucked last year. Bold, blind, unspupported claims that he will revert to “old form” should be disregarded unless factual support is provided. That kind of thinking is what brought the Clippers to where they are today.
I for one don’t want to get bogged down in further long-term expensive contracts for worthless overhyped vets who have nothing more than name recognition to go on. But then again I didn’t think the Clippers had any chance of getting into the playoffs last year.
The Bulls didn’t think about selling high on Hinrich b/c when he was playing well they had no interest in getting rid of him. Why would they have?
The Clippers need to be patient (and hope that EB stays). Calderon and Ford are both far better bets.
by Jax on
May 27, 2008 4:22 PM PDT
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And if both the Raptors are not available?
Why do you care about the Clippers cap situation?
Either they are capped out or they aren’t. Either way, trade or not, they are. How much they are over the cap really has little bearing on their competitiveness. You say you hope EB comes back. Well as long as he and Kaman are on the roster, they are basically capped out. So you shouldn’t worry about it. When an opportunity comes to spend, and they will be few, they should take it.
Like you said, you have faith in Sterling. So don’t worry about the spending. If you can get him for free, which getting him for Mobley is, why not?
by John R on
May 27, 2008 4:34 PM PDT
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Raises a Mobley question
I hadn’t really thought about this, but this thread raises an interesting question: does MDsr have any desire to trade/get rid of Mobley? He plays him so much and relies on him to do so many things, it seems very debateable. We may think that trading Mobley for Hinrich is basically getting Hinrich “for free,” but I don’t know that Dunleavy thinks in those terms.
FWIW, Hinrich falls in between Calderon and Ford for me. If Liv turns out to be useful and okay, Ford might fit, but having Knight, Ford and a Livingston question mark seems like a recipe for disaster to me. Hinrich would be a much safer, more solid choice.
by citizen zhiv on
May 27, 2008 5:59 PM PDT
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Hinrich as a safe choice?
Based on what analysis exactly?
by Jax on
May 27, 2008 6:11 PM PDT
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You misunderstood what I said
I think that DTS has business sense. I don’t think that he has historically been interested in spending money on the Clippers and I think he employs an incompetent front office. MDSr unlocked the purse strings temporarily but followed up with bonehead decisions. I agree that it would be nice to get rid of Mobley and his contract but I think that they Clips can do better (in a package, perhaps) than Hinrich, who does not have a good contract.
by Jax on
May 27, 2008 6:10 PM PDT
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Just peruse Blogabull.com
for a few minutes to see what Bulls fans think of Hinrich.
by Jax on
May 27, 2008 6:22 PM PDT
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Maggette for Captain Kirk
Actually, I am a Blogabull regular. And a huge Bulls fan.
I stopped by to see if there was any reciprocated interest in this deal. Because I would love it.
And I must say, I am pretty impressed with some of the analysis of Kirk. Blogabull as a community is frusterated with him, and he is coming off of his poorest year. But I think that’s it’s fairly simple to see why his year was ao poor.
Kirk is a solid point guard who knows how to run an offense and hit the spot up three. Plus, he is a hell of a defender. And he is particularly effective when he doesn’t have to guard the other teams biggest guard. Which is what he had to do in Chicago because Ben Gordon is really short and has tiny arms (length, not girth).
I think this is pretty good Kirk analysis…
He can run a team, he’s a solid defender, he can shoot threes. The things he doesn’t do (lead a break, break down defenders with the dribble) are things MDsr’s never shown a lot of interest in.
Frankly, he is a much better fit for the Clippers than the Bulls. His ability to hit the spot up jumper and three lends itself to playing well with low post players who would draw the double team. Plus, since he is more of a shooter than a slasher, he would space the floor well and create more room in the post for Brand and Kamen. And he runs a pretty good pick & roll. So, I would imagine that Kirk & Brand and Kamen would be the nucleas of a pretty good offense.
As far as Kirk’s shitty last year… it didn’t help that we had no post presence, our two best offensive players (Deng&Gordon) were playing poorly and selfishly, and we went through a coaching change (ps, Boylan is the worst coach I have ever seen).
Kirk is a guy who gets his numbers by runnning the offense. So, when the offense as a whole sucks, Kirks numbers go down.
Now, about Maggette, somebody said he isn’t really a guard. I’m curious, is it that he is better at forward, or that he is bad as a shooting guard? Cause all the Bulls interest that I have seen is in him as a two guard. That way we don’t have to pair up Derrick Rose with little Ben Gordon.
by kidronmusic on
Jun 3, 2008 11:39 AM PDT
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My take
Maggette is a pure wing on offense. Whether you call it a two or a three, it doesn’t much matter. As you probably know, he is most effective taking the ball to the hole. He’s got a good first step, he’s strong as an ox, and he’s relentless. If he gets a sliver of daylight past the defender, he’ll force the action and draw the foul. That’s the good Maggette – the one that leads the league in free throws converted per 40 minutes. However, he’ll also force the action when he doesn’t draw the foul, or maybe when he doesn’t have that sliver of daylight, picking up an offensive foul. That’s the bad Maggette. His outside shooting was MUCH IMPROVED this season, but it’s still not really what you want him doing. If he can make 35% of his threes, it’s a huge bonus to his slashing game. But last season was an anomaly in that regard – I’m not optimistic that he’ll shoot that well again.
Defensively, he doesn’t have great lateral quickness, and he’ll struggle to defend a lot of two guards in the league. On the whole, I tend to think Corey takes more heat for his defense than he deserves – MDsr is not a fan, and it gets pointed out a lot. Where he struggles the most actually is off the ball. The Clippers scheme calls for perimeter defenders to force the ball to help, and then everyone has to rotate. Corey gets caught napping on this way too much. I’ve actually advocated putting him on the opposition’s best wing, so at least he can maintain his focus. But the coach doesn’t tend to do that. At any rate, Corey using his strength well in matchups against guys like Ron Artest and even LeBron. (Not that he can stop LeBron but it’s actually not a bad matchup for him since LeBron is so used to simply being bigger and stronger than his defenders.) But he would have a hell of a time guarding a Kevin Martin or a Dwyane Wade – he just can’t keep those guys in front of him. So that’s why I tend to think of him as a three, not a two. So if Deng can slide over and defend the smaller, quicker twos, then no problem.
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by Steve Perrin on
Jun 3, 2008 3:04 PM PDT
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I see.
Nice summary ClipperSteve.
That’s pretty much what I thought I knew about Corey. So it’s nice to know I wasn’t wrong.
I don’t think Corey would solve all of our problems, but I think he helps with some of the more important ones. And if we do in fact hire Doug Collins who plays sllloooowwww ball. Then having a true slasher would be wonderful.
And I think giving up Kirk, for Corey makes some sense.
What is Maggette’s contract situation? Is he a restricted free agent? That’s what I thought, but I can’t remember where I read that. Any idea’s how much money he is expecting?
by kidronmusic on
Jun 3, 2008 5:18 PM PDT
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Good points
Corey’s slashing style is underappreciated on the Clips
by Jax on
Jun 3, 2008 11:35 PM PDT
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Definitely Not Restricted
He has an ETO which he will probably exercise. Which means that he is likely to be an unrestricted FA on July 1. He’ll be looking to start around $10M. Obviously, that’s just my guess. He undoubtedly wants more, and I’ll never figure out why Rashard Lewis got paid what he did – so maybe someone will give him more. But given the situation in the market with very few teams under the cap far enough to pay him, it’s not going to be easy. He’s likely only going to get paid by the Clippers, or in a sign and trade. But the sign and trade could be significantly more complex if he gets TOO MUCH because of BYC rules. So conclusion – figure somewhere in the $9M-$10M range starting salary.
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by Steve Perrin on
Jun 4, 2008 8:35 AM PDT
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Hedo for Corey: Lateral at Best (for the Magic, anyway)
I don’t think the Magic would improve drastically - if at all - if they added Maggette at Turkoglu’s expense. Maggette’s more of a slasher, but Turkoglu’s more of a playmaker. I just have a hard time seeing how that trade would elevate the Magic from “great team” to “elite team.”
Now if they could dupe Maggette into signing for the mid-level and starting him (with Nelson, Turkoglu, Lewis, and Howard), well, it’d be a much different story. But the odds of that happening are about the same as the odds of the Clippers retiring Michael Olowokandi’s jersey.
by Ben Q Rock on
Jun 3, 2008 7:20 PM PDT
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Take it up with Povtak
That one was totally his idea. I don’t see it either.
What’s interesting is, I’m beginning to recognize the dearth of 2 guards in the league. Not that beat writers, bloggers and blog readers are necessarily a good measure of what GM’s are thinking, but they would have some clue at least to needs. And there’s much more interest in Maggette as a 2 (in Orlando, in New Orleans, in Chicago, etc.) than Maggette as a 3. But he’s really a 3 – that is assuming you want your 2 to be able to defend against guards and handle the ball reasonably well.
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by Steve Perrin on
Jun 4, 2008 8:23 AM PDT
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His worst idea
Jameer Nelson for Jamaal Tinsley. Tim’s usually a great writer, but that idea sucks. Hard.
How many great, “legit” two-guards are in the league today? I count 12: Joe Johnson, Ray Allen, Allen Iverson, Rip Hamilton, Monta Ellis, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Michael Redd, Vince Carter, Kevin Martin (criminally underappreciated), and Manu Ginobili.
by Ben Q Rock on
Jun 5, 2008 4:00 PM PDT
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Interesting Topic, interesting list
Brandon Roy should be added, assuming he’s a “legit” two – I think it’s his most natural position. I think Jason Richardson fits with that group. And then you’re down to the Jamal Crawford, Ben Gordon, Cat Mobley, Raja Bell range.
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by Steve Perrin on
Jun 6, 2008 9:19 AM PDT
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Roy
Can’t believe I forgot about him. I’d put him on that list instead of Allen.
I’m not impressed with Jason Richardson. He’s a great volume scorer, but that’s about all he does. Certainly an above-average player, but not in that top-tier with some of the others.
Think Ben Gordon regrets rejecting that $50 million offer he got last summer?
by Ben Q Rock on
Jun 7, 2008 3:44 PM PDT
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