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Ford versus Hinrich

The Clippers finished last season with Brevin Knight, Dan Dickau and Smush Parker as the only healthy point guards on their roster.  Meanwhile, Shawn Livingston hasn't played competitive basketball, or even practiced 5-on-5, in 15 months, and was disappointing and injury-prone before that.  So it's pretty much a given that the Clippers need some help at the point.

In next month's draft, the only point guard who figures to be able to help an NBA team right away will be long gone by the seventh pick.  There are other possibilities - but they're either combo guards (Jerryd Bayless, OJ Mayo, Russell Westbrook) who would have to learn the point, or otherwise flawed and would be a stretch at seven (DJ Augustin is under 6'0", Ty Lawson is erratic, etc.)

Next stop: free agency.  The Clippers, assuming Brand does not opt out of his contract, have no more than the mid-level exception to spend.  That's not enough to lure Jose Calderon away from Toronto, and probably not enough to entice Beno Udrih (although don't be surprised if the Clippers float that offer).  From there, the problem isn't that the Clippers don't have enough money to offer - there just aren't any free agent point guards worth the money.  Jason Williams?  Carlos Arroyo?

So we move on to trades.  Ignoring the big fish with the Early Termination Options (Gilbert Arenas and Baron Davis), there are two veteran point guards who are being shopped by their current clubs:  TJ Ford of the Raptors and Kirk Hinrich of the Bulls.  Ford appears to be the odd man out in Toronto, where restricted free agent Calderon will likely be re-signed.  Since Calderon is tired of splitting time with Ford, part of the process may be for the Raptors to move Ford.  Likewise in Chicago, it's looking more and more probable that the Bulls will draft native son Derrick Rose to be the face of the franchise.  And no one wants a backup who is owed $37.5M.  So they'll try to deal Hinrich to make room for Rose.

I think we can all agree that Calderon is the player we'd most like to have for the Clippers.  Unfortunately, that seems unlikely, for several reasons.  First of all, the scuttlebutt is the Raptors plan to keep the guy.  In addition to that practical problem, he would only be available in a sign and trade, and base year compensation rules would make that transaction incredibly complex, as I've pointed out before .

So the question is, if the Clippers are set on a veteran point, and Calderon isn't an option, who would you rather have, Ford or Hinrich?

Ford

I've said it before, but TJ Ford seems like a bad fit for MDsr and the Clippers.  His strengths (pushing the tempo, penetrate and kick) are things that LA has shown absolutely no interest in doing during the MDsr era.  Meanwhile, he's small (6'0"), while the 5'11" Knight is already under contract.  And he has no range on his jump shot (31% for his career on three pointers, 29% last season) meaning he can't spread the floor for the Clippers low post duo of Elton Brand and Chris Kaman.  Ford is terrific in some systems - but it would seem that either the Clippers would have to significantly revamp their offense to take advantage of him, which seems highly unlikely. 

In addition to fit problems, there are other issues.  He's not particularly cheap - he has three years and $25M left on his current contract.  He also has a disconcerting injury history, having missed the entire 04-05 season and large portions of two others with spinal cord injuries, stemming in part from a congenital condition.  The bottom line is he's played in only 253 of the 410 games of his pro career.  Yikes.  If the team is planning to hand the keys to the car to a young point guard with a troubling injury history, they don't have to make any trades to do that.  And they can do it for a lot less money.

Hinrich

Kirk Hinrich had the best year of his pro career in 06-07, when he averaged 16.6 points, and shot 45% from the field and 41.5% from the arc, all career highs.  Then his 5 year contract extension kicked in for close to $50M, and proceeded to have the worst year of his pro career.  Ouch.

Basically, he did the opposite of Clipper Chris Kaman, who was taken one spot ahead of Hinrich in the 2003 draft.  They each showed promise in their first three seasons.  They were each rewarded with nice extensions in late October of 2006.  Kaman proceeded to play terribly in the final year of his rookie deal only to rebound when the extension kicked in.  Hinrich played great after signing the extension and then went in the tank when the money started coming in.  In each case, the player looks like a relative bargain if you take the 'good' season as the norm, and a complete disaster if you take the 'bad' season.  We think (hope?) the team will get the right version of Kaman.  So which Hinrich are we talking about?

No one can know for sure.  He actually shot better after the all star break last year, but his minutes were way down as interim coach Jim Boylan experimented with Thabo Sefolosha and Chris Duhon.  At any rate, committing $37M to a guy who essentially played like a backup last season doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy inside.  For what it's worth, his contract is not significantly worse than Ford's from a cap standpoint - Hinrich's salary decreases over time, so by the final season of his contract, he'll make less than Ford.  However, it does run one year longer than Ford's.

To an outside observer, Hinrich does appear to be a better fit than Ford.  He has decent size.  He's a solid on ball defender (at one time he was considered to be among the best).  He has three point range (639 total threes and 38% for his career compared to 76 and 31% for Ford).  And he can run an offense.  If the Clippers are looking for a point guard to make an entry pass to Brand, and then stick a three on the kick out, Hinrich is better suited to those things than Ford.

Point guard is perhaps the most difficult position to fill in the NBA.  And for a Western Conference team, trying to keep pace with Chris Paul and Steve Nash and Deron Williams and Tony Parker is daunting to say the least.  There will be other suitors for these players - I'm not the only one who has noticed that they're available and that they are (or were in Hinrich's case) capable. 

What will the price be?  Toronto is in desperate need of an athletic, scoring wing.  It's seems like Maggette for Ford would be a great trade for the Raptors.  But would the Clippers be giving up too much?  As for Hinrich, how much will his dismal 07-08 season depress his trade value?  How much will Ford's injury history impact his?  Would either of them be available for Cuttino Mobley's (shorter) contract?  Are the Bulls willing to move Hinrich simply for the sake of moving him, or are they hopeful of getting something significant in return?

Finally, there's also the complicating factor of Livingston.  At some level, I'd rather have him than either one of these veterans.  But how is his rehab coming?  Will he ever be healthy?  When?  Will the team get to see him in full contact workouts and summer league games before deals for Hinrich and Ford are consummated?  Both Ford and Hinrich are flawed, and I'm not enamored of committing a lot of salary to either of them.  But desperate times call for desperate measures - I'm just not sure how desperate the Clippers are.

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Clamouring for Maggette

May 2008 by Steve Perrin - 32 comments

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Livingston is the key factor...

If we’re going to keep Livingston around, it probably makes more sense to go with Hinrich.. It always seems to be about health with this team.. If Ford was on this team, and he and Livingston go both go down, we’re back to last season (Brevin Knight and Smush Parker)..

The question with obtaining Hinrich is, as you mentioned, how effective can a backcourt of Hinrich and Mobley (or Maggette) be against the likes of Chris Paul, Deron William, Tony Parker, etc..

Kaman / Fazekas / Davis
Brand / Powell
Thornton / Thomas / M Williams
Mobley / 1st Rounder / Ross
Hinrich / Livingston / Knight

Doesn’t sound bad on paper, but I personally think that we need a big-name guard for us to be competitive in the West.

by CLiPPz WeRD 42 on May 28, 2008 12:16 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hinrich for

Maggette and Knight? I guess?

Hinrich/Nocioni/Thabo for Maggette/Mobley/Knight

Man do I hate Brevin Knight though…

Tim Thomas’ contract is also shorter, but I really doubt the Bulls are interested in ‘dealing’ with him again…

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 28, 2008 12:22 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I thought about Thomas to the Bulls

That would be pretty interesting from a karma standpoint. Can’t say I would expect Thomas to get along with Avery Johnson any better than he got along with Scott Skiles.

The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!

by Steve Perrin on May 28, 2008 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting Scenarios

This is good and interestting, a very helpful breakdown.

One of the big questions in possibly trading for a PG is then what do you do with the pick. Or you’ve picked already, and intend to trade for a PG.

Bulls blogger has no interest in TT for very good reason, but does a Ford for Thomas swap make any sense? Mobley for Ford would be more questionable—the Clips get a lot of value out of Mobley, and I’m not sure it’s worth it to give him up for what the Clips can get out of Ford. Maggette for Ford seems too steep. It might be okay if Maggs is determined to get out at all costs, but the deal seems to help the Raptors a lot more than the Clippers. Livingston, Mobley, Westbrook or Gordon, Ford and Knight is better than last year, but it’s not especially inspiring.

Essentially, you want to make deals where you get a real benefit. The Raptors want to move Ford, but badly enough that they would take Thomas? The Bulls want to move Hinrich. I’m not scared of Hinrich and think he might be a very good fit, and the question is whether the Clips can pry him loose in a way that would clearly benefit them. Can they trade Mobley (and Knight?) for him, and if they do, would he be able to play some PG and also do some of what Mobley does?

I’m sure it’s not possible, but including Knight in one of the deals makes me wonder if the Clips might do both deals, and get younger guys for their above-mid-level deals, Thomas and Mobley. Thomas for Ford, Mobley and Knight for Hinrich. Then you have Liv-Hinrich-Ford, and Maggette and draft pick. Along with someone like Marcus Williams I suppose. So crazy it just might work?

by citizen zhiv on May 28, 2008 1:37 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Maggette -> Ford

Yes, definitely don’t need to reach or panic here.

Im only considering Maggette in a deal for Ford if the Clippers get to dump salary for Rasho’s expiring too.
Maggette+Thomas for Ford+Nesterovich+2nd round pick. Something along these lines. I’m not checking the math, but this is the idea.

Ive thought about it and would sweeten the pot for Hinrich. If they will take Mobley for matching purposes, I would throw in the worst of the Clippers or Minnesota pick in whatever year the Clippers get the Minny pick. If the Clippers don’t have their pick in the year the Minny pick comes over, the Bulls get the Clippers pick the following season after they use the Minny pick. Its a protected pick, but not in the traditional lottery protected sense.

by John R on May 28, 2008 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hinrich is a LOT of money

but I think he is a fit. Clips should insist on some sort of package deal.

Maggette, Mobley & the 7th pick for Hinrich & Gordon. Something like that.

by mikey p on May 28, 2008 2:04 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Bulls fan says sweet!

I am a Bulls fan, and if I would be excited to make this trade. Sadly, that probably means it is too much in our favor.

by kidronmusic on Jun 3, 2008 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree

that Hinrich is a better fit than Ford..and possibly even more so than Calderon as well (not that he is available). Hinrich does play a mean pick and roll, and knows how to hit the outside J, along with above par D.
Does it all come down to how desperate the Bulls are to get rid of him? I don’t like the idea of Maggette for either Ford or Hinrich though…unless the Clips were getting draft picks or expiring contracts in return as well. Getting Hinrich AND Gordon seems a little optimistic to me too. Time will tell if the Bulls want to be trading partners again….we all know that they are still ruing the day they traded Brand….

by Clip Show on May 28, 2008 2:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Maggette -> Hinrich

Only way I’m doing that is if Deng comes over too. Maggette + Thomas -> Hinrich + Deng.

Something along those lines.

by John R on May 28, 2008 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If the Bulls

made that offer, there should be no hesitation to accept it. What about swapping Gordon for Deng. Does that make more sense….or would drafting someone like Gordon preclude that deal?

by Clip Show on May 28, 2008 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

draft pick

I say if the bulls ask for our draft pick we give it to them. It seems to me that the players available at 7 are too risky and might never pan out, or are not true points to begin with. Hinrich is a proven point guard who is still fairly young. I say unless a jerryd bayless or oj mayo falls to 7th, send the pick to chicago for hinrich so they can take a big man like lopez or love.

by clipschamps on May 28, 2008 5:04 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

what about memphis?

Memphis has a lot of young point guards… Although none of which are ready NBA starters. However, they have all played NBA minutes and could be solid role players.

what kind of deal do you all think we could make for one of them and maybe mike miller?

I kinda like Javaris Crittenton, and he was projected to be taken by the clippers last year in that deep draft.

by cantthinkofagoodname on May 28, 2008 5:21 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hard to figure Memphis

After the Pau trade, anything is possible. But if we’re assuming they want to trade Miller to get rid of his salary, the Clippers have nothing to offer. Miller’s deal expires in 2010, same as Mobley and Thomas. The Clippers don’t have anybody of significance coming off the books next year (unless Maggette plays out his final season). So if you’re thinking about Maggette and Knight for Miller and Crittendon, forget it. What exactly is in that for Memphis? If they wanted Maggette, they could sign him outright, since they’re about the only team far enough under the cap to pay him what he wants.

Yes, Memphis has some decent young point guards (and may draft another one next month). No, the Clippers don’t have anything they want. Except maybe draft picks.

The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!

by Steve Perrin on May 28, 2008 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

time for a 3 team trade...

but that’s waaaay to difficult and rarely happens… oh well.

by cantthinkofagoodname on May 28, 2008 7:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey guys...

I’m a Bulls fan just stopping bye to gauge reaction to a possible Kirk Hinrich trade.

I would love to see the Bulls work something out for Maggette. And I think a trade of Kirk plus Tyrus Thomas makes some sense for both teams.

Unfortunatly, it doesn’t seem to work under the cap at all. I think the numbers I’m looking at are from last season, but it looks like the Bulls would have to take back another conract to make the numbers match.

I think Tim Thomas is out, cause of our history with him, so who else in the 3-6mil range would you want to stick us with?

by kidronmusic on Jun 2, 2008 10:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Bulls fan here...

There has been a lot of debate on our ESPN board regarding Hinrich for Maggette…Many of us over there are advocating a straight up deal with a signed and traded Maggette coming to Chicago as an equal exchange of talent and beneficial for both teams. This post reinforces that type of deal is plausible.

Regarding other players, Tim Thomas will not be a Bull again. His attitude clashed with that of our GM. Nobody really wants Mobley for Hinrich because we already have a short shoot first SG ( a couple actually). We would welcome Knight as a veteran 12 minute a night back-up PG. I would not expect either Thomas or Deng to be moved anytime soon. Ben Gordon could be moved, but not likely for anything on your roster.

Everyone on the ESPN Bulls Board mistakenly thinks that either Brand or Kaman could be traded. I feel there is no chance of that.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jun 18, 2008 10:40 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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