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Adande article

I'm trying to shut down the zhiv comment machine, but JA Adande has deigned to write about how the Clips have gained a smidgen of significance now that they've signed Baron Davis and have BD and Elton Brand in new longterm deals.  Thanks, JA, and yes, we're aware that the Clips barely dodged the bullet of the LATimes discontinuing its beat coverage in the same ignonimous way that the OCR did.  We also note that you don't work for the LAT anymore, so perhaps they decided that you were less relevant than the Clips, but you're in better shape regardless of the circumstances, since you've apparently noticed that newspapers don't matter much anymore, so what's your point?

Adande further condescends to grant, with his acute NBA knowledge, that while the Clips clearly aren't a deep, elite, contending team, they have a pretty good shot now to make the playoffs, they can mix it up in the West a little bit, and recover some of what they lost since their playoff run two years ago.

Adande says:  "That's not enough to put them ahead of the Lakers in the city or in the West. Not the Spurs or the Hornets or the Jazz or the Suns either. Truth is they'll be hard pressed to beat out the Suns, Rockets and on-the-rise Trail Blazers for a postseason spot. Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony and the Denver Nuggets couldn't win a playoff game last season. Davis and the Golden State Warriors couldn't even get in the party. The West is tough like that."

Despite the fact that we're still just figuring out what the roster might be, Adande forces me to break this down a little bit.  It's premature and foolhardy.  But we'll start at the bottom.

"Davis and GSW couldn't even get in the party."  Okay.  Maybe that's why Davis went to the team with EB and Kaman, instead of the one trying to sign Andris Biedrens.

The Nuggets and their two stars couldn't win a playoff game.  Iverson hasn't been the answer for the Nuggets, Anthony hasn't stepped up to star status and they don't have and haven't had the supporting cast.  No strong counter for Brand-Kaman, or Davis. Clear advantage Clippers.

Rockets.  Don't know much about the Rockets, but I do know that McGrady-Yao has been a bit star-crossed and ineffective.  Needs further study.

On the rise Trailblazers are scary.  But Kaman-Brand should beat Oden-Aldridge, especially since Oden is yet to play his first game.  Thornton and Gordon might match up with young Blazers, while BD should be a deciding factor.  Advantage Clippers.

Adande mentions Suns twice.  Are they in first tier or second?  Don't seem to be getting better.  Shaq-Amare vs. Kaman-Brand promises excitement, though it's hard to say how Shaq is going to fare during the regular season, and he won't dominate Kaman 2.0.  Davis-Nash equally exciting.  Kind of a tossup, but Clips are right there. 

Jazz are a potent team, obviously almost impossible to beat at home, especially for the Clips.  Just as Cassell gave the Clips the confidence to close out games and get some road wins, Davis should help out here and against teams like this.  Davis can give DWilliams some trouble, neutralizing a big Jazz advantage.  Boozer-Brand is always fun, and Kaman-Okur can have different outcomes.  Other players should makeup the difference, but again, since Williams and Boozer are the two best players on the Jazz and they're neutralized by EB/BD, it's another close call, no clear advantage for the Jazz.

By now you know I'm going to say the same thing about the Hornets.  Maybe Chris Paul is so good and better than Davis, but maybe he isn't.  At least it's worth playing the game.  Somehow Chandler and West seem lesser than Kaman and Brand, probably because Chandler isn't an offensive threat, although Paul gets him a lot of easy baskets--do we think BD might get Kaman some easy baskets?  Will Kaman finish even stronger this year, or will he have Mr. Flippy nights?  Even if he does, Brand isn't going to, so there's that.  Missed you, EB.  Hornets are very good.  Clips are going to be good too.

Spurs.  I would always respect the Spurs, but we did see them get beaten by the Lakers.  Ginobili is the x factor.  The Clips now have their own x factor in BD.  They should be able to figure out a way to defend Parker, but stopping both Parker and Ginobili is going to require some defense that isn't there yet, a full 7 hours after BD has joined the team.  One thing, however, is that with a Brand back and a maturing Kaman, Duncan isn't so scary anymore. 

And finally, the Lakers.  Adande's darlings.  Let's just go position by position, shall we?  You know you want to.

C  Kaman and Bynum.  Bynum still a big question mark, coming back from slightly weird injury.  Kaman already much better in first part of last year anyway, but Bynum gaining ground fast.  A lot of very reasonable wishful thinking about Bynum by Laker fans, but he also did well against teams that didn't have a player to match up against him.  At the same time, the world seems to have forgotten just how effective Kaman 2.0 was before he hit the funk and got hurt.  Obviously, I like Kaman.  I'm sure Adande doesn't want to give Kaman extra credit, while he's wildly optimistic about Bynum.

PF  Brand and Gasol.  You see, that Gasol trade really helped the Lakers, you know?  They're thinking that matching up with Bynum-Gasol is going to get them over the top.  They're not thinking about Kaman-Brand, who match up just fine with them.  The problem for the Clippers is that it neutralizes their biggest asset.  Let's move on.  Worth noting that Gasol will play a lot of center, but that only helps Kaman-Brand, and Brand will play a lot of center minutes too.  Clippers and Lakers cancel out big advantage they might have over other teams, but possible that Clips have slight edge.

SF  Thornton and Radmanovic.  I'm going with Thornton.  Can't imagine that Adande is a big Radman fan.  It get a little more complicated with the backups, where the Clips will have to improve and hang tough, but it's worth noting that the Clipper backup, Thomas, is almost exactly equivalent to the Laker starter, Radman.  We Clipper fans know that, and we invite Pau to sit out the season so that Radman can be your starting PF for a year.   Oops--did I forget Lamar Odom?  How did that happen?  Any Clipper fan will give you Odom any day, in a heartbeat, because somehow he never shows up when you need him, like, say, against Boston?  He might do better hiding out at SF, he might not--you never know with Lamar.  I'll still take Thornton, and if I recall Laker fans weren't too happy with Lamar a couple of weeks ago.  But he wasn't playing SF.  He wasn't playing PF when he played with Brand on the Clippers, either, and Clipper fans were still a little unhappy.  So we know.

SG  Mobley/Gordon and that Kobe guy.  If Clips Kaman/Brand advantage is neutralized, can't really say that the Clips have an answer for the Kobe advantage.  That's the way it goes.  Maybe Livingston will be able to play and help out.  Believe me, the Clips will go into the season with some idea of how to defend against the star SG/SFs like Kobe, and having Kaman and Brand in the paint will help and keep them outside shooting jumpers.  We know that can work, don't we?

PG  BD and Fisher/Farmar.   And you know what, the Lakers, I gotta say, are a little thin here on slowing down the BD advantage.  There's Kobe, but there's no star PG like Paul, Williams, or Nash.  That puts the game right in BD (and Kobe's) hands, which is somehow where I think he wants it.

I could go on, but it's been a long day.  We all get to play this game at home for a long time now, in the months before it's played on the court, but somehow I think we'll see more condescension like Adande's and a failure to take the Clippers seriously.  Which is fine.     

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a tad harsh, zhiv?

I liked Adande’s piece. The focus on relevance is spot on. You may resent it, but it’s still true.

It’s not even important right now if Adande thinks they’re first round fodder. I’d definitely take the Clippers over the Suns, btw. If not this season, then next, right? Clippers best three players are 29, 29 and 25. Suns are 35, 34 and 25. I think the window is shut, but if not now then really soon. And I think the Clippers can play with everyone else. But can they crack the top four of the Lakers, Hornets, Spurs and Jazz? Those are four great teams.

The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!

by Steve Perrin on Jul 1, 2008 11:47 PM PDT reply actions  

I don't know

I just didn’t like the tone. It struck me as very much “oh look at the cute little Clippers,” and I think he could give up a little more respect than that. Davis is a force. Brand made it happen and did it for a reason. Kaman and Thornton played really well last season, and they weren’t playing JV games. I’d rather see him dig in a little and do some home work, than go with a kneejerk “hey, look at the Clippers” article. He’s not just an ESPN guy. He’s an LA guy. He’s even a Crossroads guy, and that makes his tone about Brand and Davis hanging around to be movie producers even worse. That’s not what they’re doing. They’re here to win. They’re here to beat the Lakers, or at least to make the Lakers stop and think about them for a second. That’s the article I would have liked to have seen from him. Rather than the blithe dismissal, more the “wait a minute-what just happened? Let’s take a look at this”-and then really take a look at it. The material to understand the Clippers is there—it’s not that different than it was when they made the offer to Kobe, let alone what it was when they won more games and went further in the playoffs than the Lakers. Too easy for him.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 2, 2008 12:11 AM PDT reply actions  

On the other hand

If there were sports writers out there who had any clue about the Clippers, yours truly would not now be sitting in the proverbial cat bird seat.

The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!

by Steve Perrin on Jul 2, 2008 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

nice analysis but we lack depth

We have a great starting lineup, but we only have gordon and thomas coming off the bench that can actually score… The elite teems like the lakers have 8 or 9 solid rotation players

I’m kinda hoping baron wont be playing 40+ minutes a night like he did for the warriors.

Hopeful for a healthy and signed livingston…

by cantthinkofagoodname on Jul 2, 2008 12:27 AM PDT reply actions  

Adande is a Laker tool

That’s his right, I guess. Clippers will have to prove themselves. I don’t think depth will be a huge issue. Let’s look:

Starting 5 is likely Davis, Mobley, Kaman, Thornton, Brand. I’m ok with Cat starting with this unit for defensive purposes, and to spread the floor. Gordon can be the first sub for extra scoring punch. Brevin Knight is certainly and adequete backup PG. Tim Thomas can come in for either forward. So there is the eight man rotation. Not bad. Nice mix of shooting, athleticism and veterans. A bit light on defense.

Going deeper into the bench, Powell and Fazekas are also available to back up Brand. Jordan should be able to fill in for Kaman. That’s 11. Now another guard is needed. Who better than Shaun Livingston. He can come in to play the point, or line up on the wing and defend.

So there is the 12. Seems deep enough to me. Perhaps another veteran on the cheap would be helpful. Call me crazy, but I am not opposed to Cassell, if he is ok with the minimum. But I have a feeling he is heading to a contender.

Overall, I am fairly optimistic. I don’t think they are a shoo-in for a ring, but as I have always believed, Dunleavy’s system is ideal for playoff basketball. This should be a pretty physical team. We shall see.

by mikey p on Jul 2, 2008 8:10 AM PDT reply actions  

"Playoff basketball"

Cart… horse… but you sucked me in…

IF the team can make the playoffs, some good things could definitely happen.

Eric Gordon will no longer be a rookie.
Shaun Livingston, if he is signed and if he is able to play, will be 26 months removed from his injury
Tim Thomas rarely gets as much as he should from his talent, but he’s always been a solid playoff player

Livingston is almost the entire key to team depth. If he is signed and if he can play, he immediately becomes the first player off the bench and the best backup at three positions. They need him pretty badly.

The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!

by Steve Perrin on Jul 2, 2008 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

I say they are more than likely a playoff team, if healthy

Just curious…do you really think Livingston will end up with the Clips? I am starting to wonder if another team might make the gamble.

LAC does not have much to offer at this point.

by mikey p on Jul 2, 2008 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

i've read

those rumors too. I’m hoping livingston will walk in EBs footstepts.

Not to change the subject but I really think EB set the tone for this team. He took less to improve the team. I’ve heard CS before say the EB was a max contarct guy… which is a lot by arenas standars.. and I think we as fans should always remember that he’s taking a big pay cut to play for the clippers..

EB for executive of the year! (It will go to Elgin Baylor but should go to Elton Brand… but wait… they’re both EB. so ya!)

by cantthinkofagoodname on Jul 2, 2008 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree re: playoffs

Aside from one glaring, fatal blunder, Dunleavy impressed me in the playoffs two years ago. He clearly outcoached D’Antoni, in my opinion. (Aside from defending Raja Bell.) I think he’s a pretty good playoff coach with a system suited to the playoffs. That’s why I love this move. It was far and away the best option out there and it should get us to the playoffs where anything can happen. We catch a break, someone gets knocked off and, you never know, we’re in the conference finals. The bench is sure a question mark, but we have a big wild-card in Shaun, if we can get him back. If he can be a more than decent role player, we’re on to something.

by Jonee on Jul 2, 2008 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thornton over Lamar

because he was unable to deliver against the World Champion Celtic defense seems harsh. It wasn’t like anyone else on the Lakers delivered on offense against them. I’ll take Odom any day of the week over Thornton. Has everyone forgotten that Kaman 2.0 was first half Kaman. He looked very much like the old model in the 2nd half.

For this team to step up against the elite West, Kaman will need to play at a high level all year. Interesting how Odom is downgraded because once in a while he doesn’t bring his A game but we just ignore how Kaman hasn’t brought his A game for most of his career.

At this point Adande is right, until the Clippers can prove they can win they are just another team trying to crack the tough West. As usual, injuries will have more to say about who ends up in the playoffs then talent. Just about everyone in the West has talent, it is the ones with the most talent left standing who will say what the seedings will be.

We have a new PG who has a history of back problems. A power forward coming off a season in which he played very few games. A center who hasn’t been Mr. Healthy himself. I can’t say enough how giddy I am about Baron coming down here, but to get defensive because we aren’t getting props seems out of place. You earn respect, hopefully we will do so but it isn’t written in stone that this is a playoff team.

by Phil Gurnee on Jul 2, 2008 9:55 AM PDT reply actions  

A well worded bit reality check

Baron Davis hasn’t signed a contract, let alone donned a uniform or played a game.

The 2002-2003 Clippers featured a starting lineup of Kandi, Brand, Odom, Maggette and Andre Miller. Hopes and expectations were extremely high going into the season after Baylor pulled off what seemed to be a ideal trade – DMiles for the seemingly perfect fit point guard, Miller.

It went south very quickly.

The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!

by Steve Perrin on Jul 2, 2008 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Miller was the cause

Miller didn’t want to be a clipper and played (or didn’t play) like it. If we had the mIller that was before or after the Clippers, the season would have been much better. Attitude causes big swings either way on teams. BD wantes to be here and play hard.

by HT on Jul 2, 2008 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think he likes LA very much

It’s probably why he owns a house in El Dorado Hills now.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 2, 2008 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

City Battle not a foregone conclusion

I was thinking about this post this morning and agree with all the commentary, with a special nod to mp’s breakdown of the bench and CS’ note about playoff basketball. My current view is that the player the Clips are missing is a good defender at SF to back up Thornton. They have that dynamic covered at SG with Mobley, and Livingston could help out but can’t be counted on, but Thomas is the only real candidate and he’s an offensive-minded tweener. So that gets us to the one player not mentioned so far in this thread: say hello to Marcus Williams, Clipper fans! Does he have any SF heft, or Tayshaun Prince length? Don’t know or remember enough about him, and somebody might want to look, because once Thornton sits down he’s going to be the guy guarding Paul Pierce, LeBron James, Richard Jefferson, and other guys I’m not remembering. Unless it’s Livingston: fingers crossed.

The high quality and ability of Thornton is important here. Let’s hope he can play some defense. With Maggette gone, it seems obvious that Thornton needs to start, and Mobley hangs on as the defender in the lineup until we get a better sense of Gordon. But it means that guys like Tayshaun Prince and Shane Battier don’t really have a place on the Clips, even if it were possible to get them, because they’re not backups. You saw this perfect version of this player in James Posey in the finals, and I’m still surprised that Jackson didn’t play Ariza more and put him on Pierce. And I’m a little surprised that Ariza took his option to return to the Lakers in order to play behind Odom, Radman and Walton. He would have been perfect for the Clips, but they don’t have the seemingly affordable 3 million that he’s going to get paid. And the sad part is that the Lakers are talking about Posey for the same overstocked position.

Any comments on Marcus Williams, or can anybody think of somebody else who fits the mold?

by citizen zhiv on Jul 2, 2008 1:58 PM PDT reply actions  

They better be cheap, whoever it is

Cat Mobley’s new role is that of defensive specialist. But another is needed.

Don’t recall much about Marcus Williams.

by mikey p on Jul 2, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Williams is the new QRoss

I have no doubt that Williams was given a QO because of his ability to defend several positions. He is really long, and a terrific athlete. Matt from Ridiculous Upside was nutty koo-koo for the guy’s defense with the Austin Toro’s before the Clippers signed him. He guarded everyone in the D-League from point guards to power forwards and took them out. Given how few minutes he got on the court last season, there’s got to be a reason he got a QO. I’m saying MDsr fell in love with his defense in practice.

He’s still a long shot to be productive. He’s played 34 minutes and scored 10 points in the NBA so far.

Livingston is really crucial at this point, I think. Otherwise, we’re looking at signing… Mickael Gelebale?

Here’s a wacky idea – Darius Miles.

The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!

by Steve Perrin on Jul 2, 2008 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hilarious

Miles is perfect. What’s his status? Was he bought out somewhere? Can he walk? Can he play? (Doubtful.)

Good note on Williams. More or less what I was hoping for. Not the big name answer, but Thornton and Thomas are going to get their minutes there anyway. Funny how duplicating skills with Maggette and Thornton is preferable, but then things change as soon as Maggs is gone.

Makes you wonder why MD wasn’t playing Williams at all during the deathmarch. Your point about making an impression with his defense and general utility is a good explanation, except that I don’t think the Clips were doing a lot of practicing then either. At any rate, even though they didn’t play enough from our point of view, it’s good news that Fazekas and Williams are in the mix.

Livingston… sigh.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 2, 2008 3:27 PM PDT reply actions  

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