Coming Into Focus
In the immediate aftermath of this debacle, I assumed it would be a very, very long time before we would know - I mean really know - what happened; how exactly it went off the rails.
Amazingly, we're only in day two after the moratorium and already I feel like it's becoming pretty clear. I'm connecting some dots, I'm reading between the lines, and obviously I could be wrong. After all, I've been wrong pretty much continually this calendar year. But I'm not discouraged. I figure the odds are now in my favor. You gotta admire my spirit.
As is the case in almost any disagreement in any endeavor, mistakes were made by all involved. There is some blame to be shared. But it's pretty hard to look at what happened, and what is now being said, and not place the lion's share of culpability on Elton Brand and his agent David Falk.
I've listened to Elton's interview on 570 AM. I've seen the quotes from his press conference in Philadelphia. I've seen the statements in today's papers from David Falk. And here's the thing. If you swallow their side of the story hook line and sinker with absolutely no reservations, because, you know, Saint Elton would never lie to us, Brand still comes off as disingenuous and childish.
"What you want when you're a franchise player you want to feel that you're wanted." Elton didn't feel wanted? Well boo hoo. Tell me Elton, exactly how much respect DO you deserve? The Clippers offered you the money that they had under salary cap rules, while allowing for the signing of Baron Davis, and also keeping some assets to help the team get better (which, as I recall, was part of the plan from the beginning).
"[The fact that the Clippers negotiated directly with Brand] is probably the reason that the deal fell apart." This one fascinates me, and quite frankly fits so perfectly with Adrian Wojnarowski's vision of Falk as Svengali. Falk is the one using this as a way to deflect blame, and he still comes off as control freak and a jerk. Um, whose fault is it that MDsr spoke directly with Brand? I assume that MDsr knows his phone number after being his coach for 5 years. So here's how that goes. The phone rings and Elton answers it. "Hey, Baron said yes, isn't that great? You wanna talk about your contract now?" Elton Brand now has two choices. He can say, "Yes." Or he can say, "No, let's wait and do it with my agent." How exactly is MDsr disrespecting ANYONE by talking to Elton Brand? Elton is 29 years old, he went to Duke, he produces movies, he was nominated for an Oscar, for FSM's sake. Is he capable of having a conversation without his agent or isn't he? More to the point, is he capable of making that decision on his own? And if he does have a conversation, how in the world is that the Clippers' problem? I can see Falk saying, "Hey, Elton, I'm your agent. You really shouldn't discuss your contract without me. Let's get them back on the phone and go over this again." But instead it seems that Falk said "Bad Elton! Bad! I've told you time and again! No talking without me. Go to your room. Oh, and give me that phone. You've lost talking privileges. I'll handle this from here, and you can kiss your precious Clippers goodbye. Go behind my back, will they? I'll show them!"
By the way, before I leave this one, can we all agree that this is a bald-faced lie? Here's the full quote from Falk:
I didn't know it then, I know it now. I know it after the fact. It's probably the reason that the deal fell apart.
You didn't know it then? What do you mean? You didn't know it while the conversation was happening? Well, obviously, that goes without saying. the implication of 'after the fact' is that you didn't know it until after a deal with Philadelphia was done, i.e. after it was too late. So, you're suggesting that Elton did indeed talk directly to the Clippers, but then he never told you about it? Seriously Falk. How stupid do you think we are? If he talked to them, you knew it soon after, and you took over with a vengeance.
"The owner wouldn't take our calls." I'm not going to defend Donald Sterling on this if you accept it as true (and given our understanding of the man, it certainly could be). But here's the thing. Elton Brand has been a Clipper for seven years. Donald Sterling has been the owner, Andy Roeser has been his right hand man, Elgin Baylor has been the GM, for all of those seven years. Dunleavy has been the coach for five. Sterling is pretty clearly dealing with some severe personality disorders at the very least. And as the ClipperWife says, "Assholes tend to hire assholes and yes men." That would be Roeser and Baylor, respectively. After dealing with this admittedly dysfunctional organization for seven years, Brand was nonetheless sending very clear messages that he intended to stay with the team. He was not a 'quitter'. His 'intention' was to sign with the Clippers. He wanted to retire from the Clippers. The examples are too numerous to mention. No one would deny, that through June 30th 2008, every statement from Elton Brand indicated that he was going to remain a Clipper. So, suddenly, in the course of seven days, Sterling and company are now unbearable, where they were completely bearable for seven years? It makes no sense. One is left with the impression that Brand is either an idiot (for not realizing that he wanted out before), a liar (he knew he wanted out all along), a petulant child (he made a decision based on one perceived disrespect instead of based on seven years of evidence) or a puppet (Falk was always the one in control of the situation). None of these are good things to be.
"It's not about the money." How handy that Golden State made a big offer, so Brand and Falk can point to it and say, "See, we're not greedy." The only problem is that it was at least partially about the money, right? I mean, they forced Philadelphia to weaken their team to GET HIM MORE MONEY. (No matter what you think about Calvin Booth and Rodney Carney, the Sixers had to trade away a future first round pick in order to get that deal done. That is Elton Brand and David Falk picking money over team in a neat little package with a bow on top.) By the way, when someone says, "it's not about the money", it's usually about the money.
There are various other small clues in what's being said. For instance, Elton brought up the Miami offer sheet from five years ago more than once to Vic the Brick. OK, sure EB, the Clippers didn't actually offer you that contract, they just matched Miami's. True statement. It happened five years ago, and if it's been bugging you this much, why were you so adamant about remaining a Clipper until July 1? No one is saying that Donald Sterling isn't a bad owner. We're saying, you lied when you said you intended to stay. You can't use something that happened five years ago to justify breaking a promise you made a week ago.
Taken together, this has all the earmarks of a pure ego trip, whether on the part of Falk or Brand or both. The two of them asked the Clippers to jump through some hoops, and the Clippers didn't do it, or didn't do it the way they wanted, or didn't do it fast enough, or didn't do it with a smile on their face, or whatever. The Sixers on the other hand jumped through the hoops in a most pleasing manner. It's stupid to make this decision based on which team's management did a better job of sucking up in the last seven days. But that would appear to be exactly what happened.
Like I said, all of the above is based entirely on the Brand/Falk side of the story. Even if it's all true, Brand comes off looking very bad. Now consider that Mike Dunleavy and the Clippers say it's not true.
MDsr says the Clippers responded to every request. That they gave him everything he asked for. And most damning of all, he says they had a verbal agreement, and that he's got the text messages to prove it.
Now, let's be clear. Not all verbal agreements are created equal. For instance, Baron Davis' agent announced to the press that he had a verbal agreement with the Clippers on July 2nd. Even if he had reached an agreement with Brand, Dunleavy knew full well that it was not the same as reaching an agreement with Brand and Falk. He might reasonably assume that Brand can speak for himself, and that there should not be significant disagreement between the player and the agent. But still, he certainly knows the difference.
But this storyline fits really well with the perceived injustices that came next. Of all the insults that Brand says he had to bear, clearly the biggest one, the one that keeps getting talked about, is the alleged 'take it or leave it' ultimatum. (I should also point out that Dunleavy denies anyone ever said that.) But imagine the conversation after the Clippers felt like they had a deal with Brand. They do not have infinite flexibility under the salary cap, as has been well documented. Brand and Falk are now asking for more. More money. More options. We still don't know exactly what, but more something. The Clippers, believing Brand had already agreed to a deal, are thinking, "Come on guys. We've been through this. We got Baron Davis, there's a fixed ceiling on how much we can pay Elton, we had a deal. A deal's a deal." How those thoughts got verbalized is the next question. I've said before that a smart negotiation position would have been to put Elton in the driver's seat (bearing in mind that any offer the Clippers made to Baron Davis was definitely cleared with Brand first since it was coming out of his money). "Whatever you want Elton. Here's the CBA. Here's what we agreed to with Baron. If you can find yourself some more money without gutting the team, great." Elton's stated goal was to help the team improve. He could have proven that he was sincere. If instead the Clippers allowed their (justifiable) frustration with the situation to show through, it's incredibly simple to imagine someone (*cough* Roeser *cough*) uttering the phrase 'Take it or leave it.' Do cooler heads prevail, or do a couple of tough negotiators dig their heals in and allow seven years of partnership to be irrevocably lost in seven days (or seven minutes)?
It's also worth re-visiting the money, because it's clearly an important part of this, regardless of what Elton says. We also know that the Clippers initial offer was around 5/$70M, but eventually they came back to Brand with an offer 'close' to the Sixers' deal of 5/$82M. So if indeed someone said 'Take it or leave it' it was a bluff, since the Clippers did eventually find more money. And if the Clippers initially plead 'salary cap restrictions' as a reason that they could NOT increase the offer, well that wasn't completely true either as they eventually found some more.
So where did the extra money come from? That's a pretty good question. Reports in the media talked about renouncing Shaun Livingston, Dan Dickau, Smush Parker, James Singleton, Boniface NDong, Quinton Ross, Marcus Williams and Nick Fazekas to free up more money. There was also the question of waiving Josh Powell, and the only other option would be a trade - say a Brevin Knight and a future first rounder to a team with cap space.
Livingston, Dickau, Parker, Singleton and NDong are complete no-brainers. My concern there is that if the Clippers front office DIDN'T realize initially that they needed to renounce those guys in order to free up money, they are significantly too stupid to run an NBA team. Livingston's cap hold represented a LOT of money, and in fact renouncing him could never have been in question (we're talking about $6.6M dollars in starting salary to Elton). As for the others, non of them figure in the Clippers plans, and they should certainly have been removed from the books. I find it hard to believe that they got any additional money from those sources. If it's true, it's incredibly depressing.
Ross, Williams and Fazekas are a little less obvious. The team is going to have to fill out the roster SOMEHOW. None of them make much money, so the cap hold for Ross, and the QO's for Fazekas and Williams, aren't going to make a huge difference to Brand's offer. There's also the question of cap holds for roster spots, which I must admit I understand poorly. It's possible that renouncing minimum salary players and taking your roster to below a total of 12 is a wash in terms of additional cap space. Whatever the answer, the Clippers position with Elton should have been clear. "Here's what we can do. We can renounce these guys, which may hurt our team depth next season, but would get you a little extra money. Is that what you want us to do?"
That conversation becomes even more blunt in the case of waiving Powell or trading someone. "Here's the thing, EB. We can waive Josh Powell, who started 25 games for us last season, did a good job, and is currently penciled in as the first big off the bench. It would allow us to pay you more, but we feel it would hurt team depth. Or we could trade away some salary - we'd get nothing in return, and we'd even have to throw in a future draft pick to get it done. It hurts our depth, and it hurts our future. But we'll do it if you want more money over a winning team."
We've talked a lot on this blog about the question of Bird rights. It's INCREDIBLY important. A 5 year contract starting at $12M per season with 8% annual increases (the maximum duration and increases for a non Bird free agent, i.e. if the Clippers renounced their rights to Brand) works out to a total contract of $70.4M, with a fifth year salary of $16,325,868. A 5 year contract starting at $12M per season with 10.5% annual increases (i.e. the contract they could offer without renouncing him) works out to a total almost $74M, with a fifth year salary of $17,890,825. That's an extra $3.6M from the bigger increases alone. Add a 6th season at almost $19.8M, and you are talking about 23.5M extra total dollars by retaining his Bird rights. (By the way, Ramona Shelburne of the Press Telegram/Daily News responded to my question about this on her blog today - thanks Ramona.)
Given that the Clippers initial offer was reported at 5/$70M, that looks suspiciously like a starting salary of $12M and 8% increases, doesn't it? Which again begs the question, did the Clippers simply not understand the CBA well enough to figure out that they could add $3.6M without changing their cap situation and without adding years, simply by doing things in a different order?
Philly's offer has been reported as 5/$82M, which works out to a starting salary of $14M. The Clippers could have far exceeded that offer by adding a sixth year to a $12M offer and using 10.5% increases. So the question of renouncing Brand is a vital element in all of this, and I wish I understood exactly what was going on there.
As I've said, clearly there is blame to share in this situation. A number of things that the Clippers leadership allegedly did, if true, are completely inexcusable.
Did someone say 'take it or leave it'? Bad call.
Did Sterling refuse to talk to Brand? Ouch. Of course, this is the same guy who didn't take his own coach's phone calls for several weeks last winter, forcing the coach to lie about it, and then hung him out to dry when he did. They guy's interpersonal skills need some work.
Did this really blow up over an Early Termination Option? This is almost unfathomable (and for the record, I don't believe it). The Clippers had already given Brand an ETO in the prior contract. An ETO after year 4 of a 5 year contract for a 29 year old, quite frankly, is in the interest of the team. You want to end that contract when you're 33? Um, OK. If the Clippers really said no when they asked for this, it's one of the all time mistakes.
Did the Clippers really misunderstand the CBA so thoroughly as to make multiple salary cap mistakes? The question of renouncing Brand, the question of finding money by renouncing NDong and Singleton - this is all covered in "Salary Caps for the Complete Idiot." If you can't get these things straight, hire Citizen John R and ClipperSteve to run the team.
Still, even accepting that the Clippers may have made some mistakes, the situation was salvageable. It is clearly Elton Brand and David Falk who blew up the legacy of Brand and the Clippers. In the process, the reputation of arguably the most squeaky clean player in the entire NBA has been damaged forever. And for what? For more money? Not much. For a better team? That would be no. (Go through the other 4 starters one by 1 - the Clippers with Brand beat the Sixers with Brand handily in 3 of the 4.) To be closer to family? Fine. But if this was always about family, that should have been made clear from the start.
In the final analysis, Elton Brand is either a liar or a fool. Or maybe a little of both.
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Wow!
what a whopper! I gotta print this out and read it on my own time…
by Lawler's Law on Jul 10, 2008 3:00 PM PDT 0 recs
Words well spent
There have been plenty of times around here were stern words were well deserved, but CS has remained polite and above the fray.
Elton Brand is either a liar or a fool.
That is the harshest and most direct statement I can recall written in this space. What could be hollow or common instead reads as stunning, considering the source.
by John R on Jul 10, 2008 3:05 PM PDT 0 recs
Great great great analysis
Not much to add. You should have heard Dunleavy on 710 a few minutes ago. His is livid. Read the fanpost about it.
The part about EB being sore about the signing 5 years ago is ridiculous. That is how restricted free agency works.
F-Elton!
by mikey p on Jul 10, 2008 3:06 PM PDT 0 recs
Bravo CS Bravo
I have been waiting to hear what you would have to say, and you have delivered! Our fearless leader is back.
by Clip Show on Jul 10, 2008 3:44 PM PDT 0 recs
Well argued
Well said, well though out, and well played. Of course you are right that you (CS) and JohnR could run the Clippers with your salary cap knowledge. I could too actually, but I’m not a Clippers fan and I would be doing it for the money and the glory. You would do it because putting a winning team on the court would consume you. Eh, that’s merely slights of hand.
The truth is Elton is so many parts stupid and so many parts fool. The only only question is how many parts he is, and as you pointed out, the Clippers are better at 3 positions. The funniest part? The all knowing East Coast media is calling this a win, as is some Kings fans on StR whom I consider to be highly knowledgable, and people are simply ignoring the Baron Davis component of this situation.
You’re a credit to the Clippers, as many people who post here are, as the fans on Clipper Blog are, and the fact that you are amongst the few who are getting a right is a tip in the cap to all of you. That’s not a consolation or anything, but it shows how simple caring about a team is worth so much more than 1st impressions.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on Jul 10, 2008 3:46 PM PDT 0 recs
Sixers v. Clippers- line-ups
A very minor point considering the gist of the larger post, but this is the second post that I’ve seen in the last two days claiming that the Clippers starting line-up with Brand is clearly superior to the Sixers starting line-up with Brand. (and this comment echoes this claim)
Can you explain your thinking?
Based on PER, Baron Davis (19.87) is slightly ahead of Andre Miller (18.51) , Willie Green (12.91) and Cutino Mobley (11.56) are both pretty bad, but Green ranks slightly higher, Andre Igoudala (19.05) is far ahead of any Clipper SF (Maggette was at 19.43, but he’s not a Clipper anymore; Al Thornton was at 12.71), and Chris Kaman (17.62) gets the nod over Samuel Dalembert (15.62).
That gives PER totals of Clippers 61.76 and Sixers 66.09. So according to PER, the Sixers and Clippers each have an advantage at two positions, but the Sixers have the overall advantage. If you assume the Sixers will start Thaddeus Young (16.58) at SF this year and play Igoudala at SG, then the Sixers and Clippers still each have an advantage at two positions, but the Sixers’ overall advantage increases by 3.67 PER.
If you’re assuming that Thornton is going to improve, I don’t see any reason to assume that he’ll improve more than Young. If you’re assuming that Eric Gordon will make the difference (i.e. he’ll play SG and be better than Willie Green), then that doesn’t take into account the plan for the Sixers to switch Igoudala to that position (or my belief that Gordon is unlikely to do any better than Thornton’s rookie PER which was less than Green’s PER last season).
You all obviously know the Clippers better than I do, so let me know if there’s something I’m not realizing.
I haven’t looked at Wins Produced or Adjusted +/- (the other two metrics I tend to rely on), so I don’t know how the analysis based on those stats differs from the analysis based on PER.
by Sam Cohen on
Jul 10, 2008 4:03 PM PDT
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PER really doesn't mean that much to me
Thornton’s low PER could definitely be attributed to being behind Maggette and Tim Thomas a year ago. PER is something of an interesting note, but I don’t think it’s a statement of how effective each team is. After all, Davis didn’t play on the Clippers a year ago, and Igoudala is a strength of the Sixers.
It’s an opinion not necessarily guaranteed to be backed up by fact, but PER is basically a metric that can be mis-leading. I think it’s mis-leading in this case, and it’s my opinion.
I think, while if nothing else, it means something, but I’m not necessarily sure that the argument holds because of an argument with PER for instance. I also think you’re looking at a team that achieved those totals as a full squad last year in Philly vs a team that was depleted in the Clippers without Brand or a worthwhile PG. The Sixers had Miller which made a huge difference.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Jul 10, 2008 4:19 PM PDT
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Sixers sub-500 against the East last year
82 games from Miller, Iguodala, and Dalembert so no injury excuses.
9-11 vs Hawks, Bobcats, Pacers, Wolves, Knicks, and Nets.
The completely devestated Clippers did no worse than 7-7.
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
by John R on
Jul 10, 2008 4:27 PM PDT
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That should about wrap that up...
This really is a no brainer
by Clip Show on
Jul 10, 2008 4:33 PM PDT
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Agree that PER is not an end all
In general, I much prefer Wins Produced, but ESPN.com isn’t blocked at work so I could access PER. But all of these metrics are designed to tease out the impact of the player apart from the performance of the team, so I don’t see how the depleted squad argument plays a part.
From the response I’m guessing that you’re assuming that Thornton is being compared to Green and Thornton is better, so the Sixers are just better at whatever position you put Igoudala. I might disagree, but at least that answers my question.
I will say that I don’t see how the cherry-picked record in games against bottom-feeders matters very much. The Sixers were sub-500 against the East, but that just means they were above-500 against the West, the stronger conference. And I know the Clippers had a ton of injuries in addition to Brand, so I’m not basing my argument on their overall record from last year.
by Sam Cohen on
Jul 10, 2008 6:39 PM PDT
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Wanted to chime in on this
I don’t like to ignore PER, but that and all the other stats aren’t determinative for me. They’re meaningful, and I don’t object to anybody using them to reach their own conclusions, but I also like to keep in mind my own sense of the players as I’ve seen them. That’s just me.
And Baron Davis vs. Andre Miller is a perfect example. We watched Andre Miller play on a talented but fractured Clipper team for a year, and it was an absolutely horrible experience. He had great numbers and productivity on a losing Cleveland team. We saw him a lot on Denver, and I think he was a big part of why a team with Anthony and Camby didn’t make it out of the first round of the playoffs. I know that he came in and has done a very nice job on the Sixers, so your perception of him is probably quite different. He can make plays and he can be solid, but he’s a very low profile, out of the spotlight, zero personality guy. I saw on the Clippers how he can build up nice numbers that were meaningless to winning. I would say that I probably speak for a lot of Clipper fans in saying that we really don’t like him. I’m really curious about FElton playing with him again, especially with FElton being stripped of his sainthood and good name. At any rate, this one isn’t even close, not for me at least.
Kaman vs. Dalembert. Old Kaman and Dalembert were pretty comparable I would say, with Dalembert having a better PER because he doesn’t turn the ball over the way that Kaman does. But in the first half of this season we got to see Kaman 2.0, and there really isn’t a comparison. We were all salivating just to see Kaman 2.0 alongside Saint Elton, even without Baron Davis, but FElton denied us that chance. Again, the PER doesn’t really tell the story of Kaman’s effectiveness and what we saw, even without FElton, in the first half of last season, and Dalembert put up his PER with Miller, while Kaman got his with Brevin Knight and Dan Dickau. Davis will make Kaman better, and if the Clips get help at PF and take some of the defense and rebounding load off of him, he’s going to be very good, and much better than Dalembert.
Thornton and Young. Don’t know Young very well. All I know is that he’s athletic and exciting and improving very quickly, a Josh Smith of sorts in the making, but not quite there yet. But I’m not ready to call this one a wash, not yet, because Thornton’s maturity and late college graduation has made him an NBA-ready player. Let us know when Young puts up two 35+ pt games in two weeks, or takes over and gets wins in crunch time. Thornton got a slow start playing behind Rueben Patterson, Tim Thomas, Paul Davis and Corey Maggette and Quentin Ross, and didn’t start getting volume minutes until the second half of the season. He’s effective and exciting. He has a lot to learn, but he’s also completely ready to take his minutes and post a very good ppg average right away, and the acquistion of Davis will help him considerably as well.
So that’s three for three. That leaves Igoudala and Mobley/Gordon. Before entering the debate, I’m curious what the threshold is for paying Iggy, since it seems like the Clips might be making him an offer. I’m sure Iggy’s numbers must have been factored into signing FElton, and it’s the team (and its fans) that knows the player the best that can determine what is a fair and generous number, and what is too high and a detriment to winning. At any rate, the Clips best case here is that Gordon, who is extremely young, turns into a solid pro who can hit the open shot and 3s relatively quickly. Mobley still plays good D and plays tough, and with a stronger roster and backup, the hope is that he won’t play hurt.
Just a quick pass at this, but in general it seems obvious that with the acquisition of Davis and the intangibles he brings, FElton chose the inferior team. But that’s just the Clipperfan view.
by citizen zhiv on
Jul 10, 2008 7:05 PM PDT
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Iggy's value
I can’t remember off the top of my head, but I think the Sixers offered him a contract last summer for around $57 million over five years. At the time, I thought that was too much. (I also didn’t see any point in offering him that money before he hit restricted free agency) Based on what happened in the playoffs, I can’t see any other team offering him more than what he was offered last summer (although, in fairness, I don’t think a six game stretch should really be what he’s judged on). Even setting aside the playoffs, I still think he probably isn’t worth as much as the Sixers offered last summer, although it isn’t an outrageous amount for him and I’m pretty sure the Sixers would match if he was offered that much.
I appreciate your thoughts (and ClipperSteve’s thoughts below) on the position comparisons.
by Sam Cohen on
Jul 14, 2008 12:52 PM PDT
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Call it the Clippers Line
The two Finalists were a combined 29-4 against those teams. The two other Conference Finalists were a combined 32-2. Doesn’t seem irrelevent to me.
But don’t worry about it. The Sixers and FElton will be fine as long as they play in the JV.
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
by John R on
Jul 11, 2008 8:39 AM PDT
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Sam
I’m a little late back to the lineup question, but I’ll bite.
I’m not a huge fan of any specific metric. I think they are useful to a point, but I tend to rely on my gut a lot as well. You may or may not agree, but for me this is pretty clear.
The point guard and center positions, which by PER are relatively close, aren’t really contests, are they? I know you’re a Sixers blogger, but surely you agree that Kaman is a much better player than Dalembert. I actually like Dalembert a lot, but he has no discernible skills on offense. So he’s really a rebounder/shot blocker. Only thing is, Kaman was better than him in both those categories, even on a per minute basis last season. So when you add in Kaman’s very well developed offensive game, it’s a big win. Similarly, we obviously have some familiarity with Andre Miller around here. He’s extremely limited offensively. He happens to have a very PER-friendly game – low TOs, lots of assists, good rebounder for his position. But 30 out of 30 GMs in the league would take Baron Davis at the same price, right? Again, not close. Also bear in mind that we’re talking about point guard and center, the two toughest positions to fill. Miller and Dalembert are both very good – undoubtedly above average across the NBA. Davis and Kaman are better.
I’m not a huge fan of Cat Mobley, but I would give him the nod over Willie Green, PER notwithstanding. If you want to move Young into the starting lineup, fine. Iggy wins whichever wing he slots into, no question. Will Thornton improve more than Young? Look, I like Young a lot. But I would take Al Thornton over him, no question. Young’s PER is better obviously. I don’t really care. Thornton is already a proven NBA scorer, and that counts for a lot.
Strictly my opinion, but positionally, I give the Clippers two easy wins, the Sixers one easy win, and the Clippers one close win. I’ll let you call Young/Thornton a close up, since they’re both coming into their second season and therefore are still relatively unproven. But the Clippers lineup is stronger.
While I’m on the subject, a big part of this is shot creation, right? Iggy is the best on the Sixers at getting a shot, and he’s not very good at it. No one else in that lineup can really get there own shot. I LOVED the way the Sixers played D last season, and they generated a ton of easy looks because of it. That will only take you so far. Kaman commands an automatic double team, Davis is a great shot maker, Thornton is great at getting his shot, and even Mobley can post people up. The Sixers will struggle at the end of close games, even with Brand.
The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!
by ClipperSteve on
Jul 10, 2008 10:00 PM PDT
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Good points
I pretty much agree with your analysis of Kaman/Davis v. Dalembert/Miller. I guess where we depart is in how we view the amount of separation between your pair and my pair. In particular, I think Miller has been very good for us, but from everything I’ve read here it sounds like he was pretty bad during his stint in Clipper-land. And if the separation between your pair and my pair is less, than I think Igoudala’s clear advantage at his position really makes up the Clipper’s advantage at the PG/C positions. (And since I don’t think either Mobley, at this point in his career, or Green should be starttng on an NBA team, I can’t really make myself care too much about which is slightly less bad…)
I find the Thornton/Young debate interesting because before last year’s draft, I recall that the Philly paper’s were really focused in on Thornton and Jeff Green as players the Sixers were looking at (and only minimal talk about Young). Obviously, Green went well before the Sixers picked and the Sixers took Young two spots before the Clippers took Thornton. So far, I think it’s safe to say both the Sixers and Clippers are happy with their selections.
As for shot selection, you’re absolutely right that the Sixers struggle with that aspect of the game. Davis is far superior to anyone we have, and I’d probably agree that Kaman is better than any one we have as well. That said, I think the idea that Igoudala is not very good at getting his own shot while Thornton is great at it seems like a huge stretch to me. Of course, that’s comparing our first option (pre-Brand) to your third option. Miller has also been quite good at creating shots for us, but he’s clearly not on the same level as Davis or Kaman.
by Sam Cohen on
Jul 14, 2008 1:10 PM PDT
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Excellent summary of the disaster
I’ve been seething since this all went down, even said some things I may regret, but I’m ready to move on. I loved the Dunleavy interview. His story is the believable one. And, I love this post. It all feels so petty and infantile. I’m ready to move on. Is it time to retire the term “Clipper Nation?” Wasn’t it Brand who coined that phrase? When he said it in one of the interviews, I felt sick.
by Jonee on Jul 10, 2008 4:52 PM PDT 0 recs
Dunleavy no holds Barred!!
Here’s his interview today. Boy did Dunleavy let it all out today. He put it alll out there. Now we know what went down and the preson Brand really is!! Clipper Steve Brand’s every word we could throw out at him liar, fool, coward, backstabber, greedy he’s alllll that and more rapped into one.
by Alex. on Jul 10, 2008 5:05 PM PDT 0 recs
Way to bring it
Great effort, CS. One of your finest. People must know by now that here at ClipsNation we have no fear of lengthy posts. This is a forum for carefully reasoned argument, detailed thinking and solid, correct writing, at least when the occasion calls for it—there’s obviously a place for enthusiasm and quick response and all sorts of other moods and modes. But breaking it down all the way to the ground is part of the package here. And Clipper Steve can do it like nobody else can. Desperate times call for desperate measures, but they also call for in-depth understanding and painstaking analysis.
I fear that this is only the beginning, but it is a great start. We’ve been faced with more than our share of conundrums here at ClipsNation, and we haven’t been shy about pushing them to a conclusion to the very best of our abilities. The entire strange season of 06-07 was an exercise in bafflement and confusion, and the Maggettifesto was a relatively brief, decisive policy paper that was just part of the ClipsNation response. L’affair Brand is an even more critical, decisive moment in the history of the franchise, and instead of an inexplicable slow-moving, quiet train wreck like 06-07, this one was a swift, bold deception and crime that grabbed the attention of a broad audience. The narrative deserves careful analysis and expanded treatment. It’s not going to be summed up in a press conference or a couple of appearances on radio shows or in a few newspaper columns. As Clipper fans, and here at ClipsNation, we can go into the details and examine the statements and the evidence, and we can reach conclusions and form opinion.
We believed in Elton Brand. We were his biggest fans. Now we’re left to try to understand what he did and why he did it.
We know all about Donald Sterling. No one knows the history better and in more detail than we do. We were around Michael Cage, Charles Smith, and Loy Vaught, we were here for the injuries to Ron Harper, Danny Manning, and Shaun Livingston. We saw Elton Brand play with Lamar Odom, Quentin Richardson, and Darius Miles, and then we saw Alvin Gentry coaching Olowokandi, Brand, Odom, Richardson and Andre Miller, with Maggette coming off the bench—until Odom got hurt. The thing is, we know how the Clipper culture changed, slowly but surely, when Mike Dunleavy came in and became the coach. It wasn’t smooth or easy, and there were still disasters and conflicts. But we saw Mobley sign, Cassell and Kaman get extended, Tim Thomas sign a deal, Sterling agree to the buyout that Cassell and Falk requested.
Most of us are as quick to blame Sterling and front office bumbling as anybody, probably even quicker. We’re highly critical of Dunleavy, and that’s putting it mildly. But we also watch the team closely enough to know when they do the right thing and when they do the wrong thing, when to believe them and when it’s obvious that they’re covering themselves.
And now we’ve been presented with the fall of Elton Brand. As I just said, we believed in him more than any one, put him higher than anyone else, any other player in the league. He was our hope.
When a nefarious deal like this one goes down, we’re not fools. We know too much. We can see the evidence, work through the statements.
Does Brand think that, after leaving the team in a shocking, sudden reversal, that we’ll just take him at face value, and go along with him blaming the Clippers? Does he think he’s a completely innocent party in this, that he’s such a “stand up guy” that even though he was deceptive and betrayed our trust, that we’ll just believe him and move on?
Elton Brand is not a saint. We’re going to listen to Dunleavy, we’re going to analyze Falk and his motives. We’re not going to just automatically blame Sterling. We’re going to go deep.
And in the early stages of this inquest it doesn’t look so good for FElton.
by citizen zhiv on Jul 10, 2008 5:33 PM PDT 0 recs
History is on the Clippers side it says here too
That’s the bad part. All Elton really did was make a lateral move. That’s the foolish part. The stupid part was letting Falk dictate what Brand would do.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Jul 10, 2008 6:11 PM PDT
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Listened to MDSr. again
I love this interview. He says that EB was given the ETO and the terms that he wants. He says that Falk said get BD and we’re in.
He also said that EB was texting his Clipper teammates, saying “You, me and BD”.
He points out that Kaman is one of the fastest centers in the league, and that Kaman has never played with a PG that can get to wherever he wants to go on the floor.
He thinks they will fill EB’s spot.
F-Elton!
by mikey p on Jul 10, 2008 5:37 PM PDT 0 recs
The Clippers will be okay after this
As John said, sometimes MDsr takes the kind of beating he shouldn’t. This isn’t your Clippers of a decade ago where the Donald wouldn’t pay 10 million dollars for a roster.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Jul 10, 2008 6:12 PM PDT
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I take taht back
The Clippers until a decade ago were always within 2 million dollars of the salary range of every other team. It wasn’t until the late 90’s that the team started slipping behind everyone else. Maybe the Donald’s lack of payment is a bit over-stated because the team played @ the LA Arena too long (like a day too long).
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Jul 10, 2008 6:16 PM PDT
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Look at the salaries for the last 20 years for the Clippers
Here ya go in case you don’t know where the link is.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Jul 10, 2008 6:19 PM PDT
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95% Brand Guarantee? How about Faz and M Will ??
Does this mean 95% is no longer an A? All kidding aside. With Brand gone and Magette, I would like to see your revised roster thoughts? Fazekas, Williams and Powell percentages go up? Summer ball could make us lose Fazekas and Williams in a hurry. Dallas only gave up on Fazekas because of the Kidd trade. Avery is gone. Nelson and Cuban obviously like Fazekas to spend their first pick on him. Next thing you know he will be on his way back to Dallas if the Clips don’t give him a real contract quickly! Williams could be lost too?
by NewClipsFan on Jul 10, 2008 6:12 PM PDT 0 recs
Trust Dunleavy
As he said in the interview, they know what they’re doing. They’re not going to let Fazekas, Williams and Powell just go somewhere else and end up with nobody. He talked about being impressed by DeAndre Jordan and like Mike Taylor, and they already made some kind of contract “thing”-I don’t know what it was exactly-with Fazekas and Williams, and Powell is actually under contract.
And all of these guys are going to be playing in summer league in the next couple of days. It’s going to be fun. And in the interview he virtually guaranteed that they were going to fill the hole left by FElton.
by citizen zhiv on
Jul 10, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
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Fazekas and Williams
The good news is that both are restricted free agents. Since Brand’s final offer never had to go out, the Clippers didn’t have to rescind their QOs. They can match on both of them, and I don’t see anyone getting into a bidding war over those guys. Given that they spent almost their entire rookie years in the D-League, and only got onto the Clippers roster because half the team was hurt. No need to worry about those guys. Powell is pretty much a lock now, yes. He may be the starting power forward.
BTW, Ze Freak was a high second round pick – 34th overall.
The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!
by ClipperSteve on
Jul 10, 2008 10:12 PM PDT
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Josh Powell
Don’t know if I want him starting, but he can play. As can Paul Davis. DeAndre Jordan will see minutes.
But I think in the end the Clips will have a respectable player at the PF. It will either be Smith, Okafor, Biedrins, Marion, Randolph, or David Lee (dark horse – could be a Lee/Crawford package).
I’m looking at a competitve team this year.
F-Elton!
by mikey p on
Jul 11, 2008 9:35 AM PDT
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One more thing ...
IF Falk got upset that MD went around him and negotiated directly with Brand, how does he explain a desire to go around MD, Baylor, and Roeser to negotiate directly with Sterling. True, they may all three (or four) be boobs, but just as Falk is Brand’s agent, they are Sterling’s.
I believe every NBA owner has a ‘real’ job - nobody relies on his club to make his house payment. These guys actually have other things to do - “Senator Kohl, one of your players is on the phone, can you skip this vote and reassure him that he’s loved?”
by pipedreams on Jul 10, 2008 8:42 PM PDT 1 recs
That is hilarious
Definitely rec’d.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Jul 10, 2008 9:21 PM PDT
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Well put
You’re on a roll pipedreams. Sorry I stole your Svengali thing. I actually made the first reference before I had seen your FanPost.
The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!
by ClipperSteve on
Jul 10, 2008 10:15 PM PDT
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Everybody has been great
pipedreams has been throwing out one gem after another for a long time now.
Definitely a sustained, inspired effort by citizens old and new. Mikey P has been ridiculous—I know that I for one have been completely obsessed for at least two weeks straight (can anybody remember back to Clipper Steve taking a 9 day break? Kind of like the guy coming back to New Orleans a couple of days before Katrina…actually, no, not like that at all, but you get the point), but mp has been in front of everybody on everything by at least half an hour, if not half a day, and he’s been on deck scanning the horizon for 20-hour shifts for ten days straight. John R was like a one man think tank, but he’s a good example of the sense of palpable, excrutiating disappointment that raged through the Nation on Tuesday. The list goes on and on.
Have to be amused at Clipper Steve’s timing. There was the infamous 518 “no news” post. But what about this latest, “coming into focus,” where he brought his A game, painstakingly worked through a detailed analysis—just as Dunleavy was on the radio spilling his guts and burying FElton and Falk.
Another day down. We’re surviving. And Dunleavy came out punching like a champ today, perhaps his finest effort as the Clipper helmsman. You could hear and sense his disappointment about the breakdown of the deal, but even more his deep disappointment in what FElton did to his own good name and reputation, and the way he handled himself, and the chance that he gave up, and the way that Dunleavy perceived his own relationship and trust in FElton that turned out not to be true.
When Dunleavy was ready to set the record straight, and showed his excitement and faith in Baron Davis and the way that the team has money to fill out the roster and sign some good and possibly great players, in a weird way it was a very bright moment for the franchise and the Nation. He was shocked, surprised, and disappointed, but undeterred, with his eye still firmly fixed on the prize. He sounded like a fighter, not a loser. I don’t know about you guys, but it made me think that the Clips will be okay, and it gave me hope. Not quite ready to throw open the doors of Club Optimism quite yet, but Dunleavy pulled us up out of the gutter. Well played.
by citizen zhiv on
Jul 10, 2008 10:45 PM PDT
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Timing
My favorite joke in the world, which I tell constantly to the point that it has reached the point of parody in my family:
ClipperSteve: Hey, Max, I’m the greatest comedian in the world. Ask me what makes me the greatest comedian in the world.
ClipperMax: Dad, what makes you the greatest com –
ClipperSteve: Timing!
My blogging style is not well-suited to this every-moment-a-new-revelation atmosphere. As you noticed, I dig in and grind out a thousand or so words, and by the time I finish, the world has changed again. Oh well.
The great news is that the citizens haven’t allowed my slow-footed-ness to deter them at all. Everyone has indeed been great. (I do wonder what citizen mikey p does for a living, that he is able to listen to every radio broadcast and post every significant Clippers news story within minutes). The FanPost and FanShot features are being used to great advantage, and this is really becoming the place to be for Clippers fans, especially during this trying time.
Thank you to everyone.
The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!
by ClipperSteve on
Jul 10, 2008 10:57 PM PDT
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Your blogging style
is why I have stuck around. You offer deep and wide analysis. If I wanted drive-by blogging without regard for the truth, I would look elsewhere and surely find it.
The other contributors here are amazing. Zhiv is so well-reasoned and thoughtful. John R. is just brilliant. Clip Show, Jax, and many others bring it. We have a good thing here.
Plus, we all seem to speak (type) English here. we dont have people who type and blog like this without using caps or puctuation you know the kind im talkin bout the ones on dat warriors site or them other sites dudes just run with like one long run on sentence dumb azz cuz they aint got skillz like them foolz on dat clipz blog
And we usually keep it pretty clean here. We insult each other with our wits and not vulgarity. I like it here.
I often wonder what I do for a living, too.
F-Elton!
by mikey p on
Jul 11, 2008 9:22 AM PDT
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LOL
And exactly what do we mean by this “do for a living” statement?
Is that a philosophical question? Because, after all, what any one “do,” and what is “a living”?
by citizen zhiv on
Jul 11, 2008 1:19 PM PDT
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Something to ponder
While we wait for the free agency period to s..l..o..w..l..y progress.
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
by John R on
Jul 11, 2008 1:24 PM PDT
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i think
elton is a good player but 120-150m that kind of money goes to lebron /kobe.good riddance to f elton and falk. it’s safe to say falk has burned his bridges with the clippers.
by cars50 on Jul 11, 2008 11:39 AM PDT 0 recs



