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Summer League #5: Fazekas Time!

Welcome back, CS--while you're working on that Azu post, don't forget about NBA.com and the beauties of watching the summer league on the computer with no play-by-play.  Just remembered myself, and unfortunately I seem to have missed one of my favorite things in the hoopsworld, a Fazekas eruption.  It was about time.  Williams looking good again, and Jordan has 9 rebounds in the 3rd quarter.  You knew that when WoW was writing about the Clips, Fazekas would put up one of his classic boxscore lines.

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Can't believe they lost

Seemed like the Clips were in control and cruising when I checked in in the 3rd. But I think there was a lot of Stinson, Watkins, and Heath time.

Thornton only played 13 minutes, which I’m hoping is because the Clips didn’t want him to play any more, and not something else.

Fazeke’s 16pts and 6 rebs was solid in 24 mins, and DJordan had 6 pts/11 rebs in 33 mins. Marcus Williams had 24 pts and 10 rebounds in 35 mins—which is good for him, because his chances of getting a roster spot took a significant hit while the game was going on, with the offer going out to Azubuike.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 17, 2008 5:19 PM PDT   0 recs

I watched some

Jordan jumps for an alley oop on every possession. Obviously, one isnt thrown every possession. So whatever.

Fazekas did what he always does and just gets inexplicable points and high percentage looks. He did hit a running floater in the lane that was pretty.

Anyone know if those offer sheets are still out to Williams and Fazekas? If so I’d say the chances of them making the team are actually quite good. Which seems like good news.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Jul 17, 2008 5:26 PM PDT   0 recs

About Jordan

David Thorpe on Deandre Jordan:

“If he was a stock on the market, you could pick him up at a pretty low price right now. I just don’t think his future looks bright as a second-round pick because they don’t have a lot of incentive to invest time with him. His 11 rebounds look great, but most of them came right to him. I don’t think that he has got any rebounds out of area. It doesn’t impress me that he jumps straight up in his spot and grabs rebounds. He doesn’t play with great energy or intelligence and his emotional IQ is very low. He is a young man and he wouldn’t be the first to change his career path. It doesn’t happen very often.”

Classic semi- or non-sensical comment. Because he fell to them in the second round, which some might see as a gift, “they don’t have a lot of incentive to invest time with him.” So if, say, they drafted him at 7 or 10 they would really need to get something out of him, like drafting Kaman at 6, and they would be patient with him and give him lots of opportunities, and then he might be okay. But now they’ll probably just blow him off.

I don’t buy it. If he had a bad attitude or was lackadaisical, they might blow him off. But a guy who gets double-figure rebounds without doing anything, who actually has athleticism to go with his size—why wouldn’t you “invest time with him”? With Camby in the fold and aging, the Clips can use Jordan fairly effortlessly as an athletic practice dummy who can learn to be professional from Kaman and Camby and work on his skills with accomplished big man coach Kim Hughes. It should be easy enough for Jordan to build up the credibility where he can be tossed out there in case of emergency, and if the emergency happens to be injuries to Kaman and/or Camby, the Clippers aren’t going to be in contention for anything anyway, so they’ll have nothing to lose.

Another pessimistic equation applied to the Clippers that doesn’t make a lot of sense.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 17, 2008 6:05 PM PDT   0 recs

I have alot of respect for Thorpe

I don’t know about the investing in 2nd round players quote, but the comments about how he rebounds should probably be given osme weight.

by Jax on Jul 17, 2008 9:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

?

emotional iq eh?

what the hell is that.

by hans007 on Jul 17, 2008 10:13 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah

The emotional IQ line was a cheap shot, on top of the faulty logic. Does it mean that he’s young and immature-and can you blame him, since he’s young and immature? Does he mean intelligence-that Jordan doesn’t seem very bright, or a very shrewd decision maker—probably not, since he says that he doesn’t seem to play with intelligence. Does he mean that he’s petulant, arrogant, has a sense of entitlement?

In general, it seems like he’s saying that the stock can be had very cheap at this point because he’s not showing anything special, he doesn’t seem to have any extraordinary intangibles, feel for the game, or maturity beyond his years. At best he’s going to require careful, patient, dedicated handling, and his chance of getting it is small because he was picked in the 2nd round… by the Clippers. Kind of the tiresome old argument: it’s the Clippers. The Clippers, who drafted Kaman very high, who seemed like a bust, who seemed to possess all of the rough spots that Jordan has and then some, except he was going to have to receive the attention. The Clippers, who drafted Gordon at 7, while Thorpe has him at 22. Oh well. The Clippers can wait and see, but my guess is that they won’t choose to ignore him unless he shows that he has a bad attitude, and perhaps he’ll get some rebounds “out of his area” before too long, who knows.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 17, 2008 10:50 PM PDT   0 recs

Wait a minute

Kaman did very well at either Central or Eastern Michigan. As I recall, he dominated in college. On the other hand, Jordan didn’t even start for his team in college.

I follow Thorpe’s articles and blog conversations on a regular basis and I’ve never seen him denigrate the Clippers or the management of any team. He certainly didn’t do so here. Thorpe runs an NBA training center so it would be counterproductive for him to rip management IMO. He’s not just some blowhard. He is very forthright with his opinions about talent and I think that he should be given the benefit of the doubt. He probably meant something else when he was talking about emotional IQ – perhaps his “drive”? He doesn’t do cheap shots. Sometimes people just have valid opinions. It’s ok.

There’s no need to defend Jordan. Either he makes it or he doesn’t. Since he was a 2nd round pick, it won’t hurt the Clippers too much if he doesn’t (except when people like me remind everyone about CDR . . .).

by Jax on Jul 18, 2008 9:15 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Okay

Can’t get into this at the moment. I like the longer post, although your fan might feel like skimming it (!). I don’t know Thorpe at all (not sure why), so I’m willing to take your word for it—curious about what his position on Thornton was from the draft through last year. And what do you say about his comments/positioning on Gordon?

by citizen zhiv on Jul 18, 2008 10:10 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Huh?

Re Thorpe – you can find his stuff at ESPN.

by Jax on Jul 18, 2008 10:32 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Thorpe on Thornton through last year

David Thorpe’s Analysis
April 16, 2008

Of all the rookies, Thornton (along with Noah) might have played the hardest. He exhibited his athleticism and skills once the Clippers unleashed him. But it was his effort that saved him from himself; without solid rebounding numbers, his season would have looked like Adam Morrison’s last season—lots of inefficient scoring and few effective passes.

He got much better as the season progressed and looks like a legitimate starter going into next season. When his game was on, no rookie put up better performances than Thornton, who often served as his team’s No. 1 scoring option from both the wing and the post. However, he did play too fast much of the time—a fact that will jump out at him if he spends the summer watching film.
April 08, 2008

The award for “Best Performance by a Rookie in One Game” has to go to Thornton, who put up 39 points on 23 shots and added five steals in a win over Memphis on March 29. Considering how talented he is, how well he played during his last season in college and how well he has played the past few months, it is difficult to fathom how so many teams passed on him on draft night.
March 26, 2008

It doesn’t bother me that Thornton went 4-for-21 combined in back-to-back games against Portland nearly as much as the fact that he grabbed eight total rebounds in 79 minutes. Or had two total free-throw attempts. When Thornton starts rebounding and attacking on a nightly basis, no matter how his shot is dropping, he’ll have gone a long way toward being the lead guy for a Clippers resurgence.
March 19, 2008

Thornton is another rookie who has the makings of a solid defensive player. Long and strong, Thornton tested out as one of the most agile athletes of his class during the pre-draft process. And he was well-schooled in defense at Florida State, which is known for its man-to-man D.
March 12, 2008

Thornton has developed the best set of offensive weapons in this class, as it stands today. In a given game, we’ll see him catch and shoot, jab and go, jab and shoot, shot-fake and attack, post and score, finish with his left, slash and dunk, drive and counter. And then he’ll go to work on the offensive glass. The Clippers may be an easy win for most opponents, but no one looks forward to guarding Thornton.
March 05, 2008

Thornton notched a double-double against Philly, but not the good kind. The 20 points on 11 shots was outstanding, but the 10 turnovers were something else. Thornton has been killing teams with his all-around game (see our video of him last week), but the Sixers decided to show him the teeth of their defense. They drew three offensive fouls on him and sent doubles and aggressive helpers at him frequently. Thornton is the feature guy on many possessions for the Clips nowadays, so this is part of his learning curve. A certain tall and thin rookie is smiling in Seattle.
February 27, 2008

Watching tape of Thornton this week left me thinking of all the times I used to watch him in college, wondering what he’d be like if he ever learned to play to exhaustion. Now I know; he’s a dynamic player who becomes his team’s go-to guy on many possessions.
February 13, 2008

Thornton is battling Thaddeus Young, at this point, for the most improved rookie during the course of the season. Consider that he scored 19, 18 and 25 points in his past three games. All three were played on the road and the Clippers won two of them. He’s not only shooting well, but he’s attacking the rim and using his size and strength when appropriate.
February 06, 2008

I love Thornton’s talent, as stated here before. But I feared that his 13-for-20, 33-point effort against Atlanta would be a bit of fool’s gold. Anyone can simply launch 20 shots, and talented guys like Al can even make half or so once in a while. But his combined 8-for-36 (1-for-15 and 7-for-21) effort in the following two games suggests he still has a lot of learning to do. I admire that he kept his confidence after the 1-for-15 game, but launching jumper after jumper is not the way to get your rhythm back.
January 30, 2008

Thornton drew some negative comments from me earlier this season because he was playing like a one-eyed chucker. And I know he is much better than that. Lately, he has been proving it, averaging more than 11 points per game in January, including some big games in which he made jumpers and outfought everybody. But I love the 11 assists in his past four games, considering he had just 20 assists in his first 34 games. And don’t overlook his motor, which was always running in college.
David Thorpe’s Analysis
January 02, 2008

In my last report I suggested that despite having a huge game against the Spurs, Al Thornton still has some serious learning to do. Remember, he’s already 24 years old, so there’s concern that his upside may be small. I don’t share those concerns, as I’ve seen players improve well into their 30s. But with Al going 10-29 last week from the field, it shows that he still is struggling with his shot selection. However, he did have one assist in each of his last four games, the longest such “assist streak” of his young career.
December 24, 2007

I’ve always been an Al Thornton fan, so I was pleased to see his 25-point outburst against the Spurs. But I’ve watched him try far too hard to make plays all season, so I’m worried that with such a terrific game he might be inclined to continue that style, which is not a consistently productive way to play. Consider this: At the current rate he’s racking up assists, he’ll be awarded his 10th dime of the season sometime in mid-January. That’s right, he has seven assists in 390 minutes of action, and has managed to take 157 shots and 48 free throws in that time.
December 18, 2007

Thornton should see more playing time with the release of Ruben Patterson, so perhaps he’ll start to slow down some and play with more focus. He’s a very skilled athlete, who can get an open look from almost any spot on the floor due to his sense of timing, quickness and length, and he has very solid basketball fundamentals. But he plays too rushed and doesn’t finish much. Consider that his 38.5 eFG% from the perimeter is better than his 38.3 percent from close in. As he learns to slow down we should see both of those numbers rise dramatically.
December 12, 2007

Might be the most disappointing rookie of all, 17th in PER amongst rookies despite being top 4 in age and experience. But he is shooting well from 3.
November 21, 2007

Minnesota’s Corey Brewer and Thornton are like two peas in a pod. They are incredible athletes and they play super hard. Unfortunately, they are playing at 100 mph while everyone else is going at a steady 65. Sometimes it means they make astounding plays, but mostly it means they cause lots of wrecks. They are better than their PERs suggest, though (Thornton - 7.58; Brewer - 7.47).

by Jax on Jul 18, 2008 11:08 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Thorpe on Gordon

I think his analysis is spot-on. I would tend to trust Thorpe’s player evaluations. He’s not saying that Gordon is horrible, just that he needs to learn how to play the game of basketball, to hone his talent. Which is not surprising, since Gordon has played only one year in college. Thorpe knows what he’s talking about.

David Thorpe’s Analysis
July 14, 2008

Clearly has the tools to be an effective player, but currently lacks understanding of how to play. Before he was shut down for the summer due to a hamstring injury, his shot selection was horrendous, as was his general awareness of the other four Clippers running around. But the comparisons to Ben Gordon are fair, except that he’s quicker off the dribble.

July 07, 2008

Brilliant shooter/scorer who should get minutes in L.A. He’s got a motor and some talent around him that will help his transition.

by Jax on Jul 18, 2008 11:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Emotional IQ

That’s a puzzler. Perhaps Thorpe is concerned that DeAndre will never have a healthy, long term relationship. But I’m not seeing how that matters much on the basketball court.

I like Thorpe and I’ve never noticed any simplistic “It’s the Clippers so something will go wrong” bias in his work before. He was always a big fan of Thornton, from day one. The 2nd round pick logic is certainly tortured, as you point out. They won’t invest in him because he was a 2nd round pick, implying that he could be ‘first round’ good if someone would invest in him, which they might do if he were a first round pick. Whatever.

The guy is big and athletic. Either he turns out to be a player or he doesn’t. We’ll see.

Comparing DeAndre Jordan’s freshman season at Texas A&M to Kaman’s Junior season at CMU is disingenuous. Jordan did in fact start most of the season – he lost his starting job late in the season when he got hurt. And A&M happened to have some very good bigs, one of whom is playing in the NBA summer league right now. Kaman averaged 9.8/4.8 in 18.5 minutes per as a freshman at CMU – Jordan averaged 7.9/6.0 in 20 minutes per as a freshman at A&M.

The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!

by ClipperSteve on Jul 18, 2008 12:05 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And Kaman

was NOT playing in the Big 12….just the Mid American…so matching numbers…they look really similar at that stage in their basketball careers.

by Clip Show on Jul 18, 2008 12:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So by about Jordan's 7th Season

he should be a very solid player if he progresses at the rate of Kaman.

I think Jordan was a great pick and will become a good center, but how much patience and commitment will the Clips show him as he develops some game?
Will he tease us with his potential for a couple years only to break out with another team?
Is he a bigger and better version of Mikki Moore?
When 2010 rolls in and the Clips are looking at big name free agents, will he be in the same situation that Paul Davis and Shaun Livingston are now?

by ClipCat on Jul 18, 2008 1:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

All good questions

Primary reaction is that Davis and Liv are in their situations because of injury. When he was hurt last year Davis was on the cusp of a shot at major minutes and a chance to show if he belonged in the NBA. It was really quite sad, and made his road a whole lot tougher. Liv is just a gruesome version of the same thing times 100 or 1000, especially when you factor in his prior injuries and the way they prevented him from getting out on the floor.

I think Jordan should be good enough that the Clips will made a reasonable commitment to him. For now, he’ll be very valuable as training camp and practice fodder for Camby and Kaman—he gets to spend time pretending to be Andrew Bynum. It’s a really good question to wonder where he’ll be at two years from now, but in the end you’re probably right: because of his age and size he won’t be fully formed for another 6 or 7 years. Which is fine. It’s just part of the way the league works.

But first we’ll get a better look at him in the preseason, see if he gets any run if there are injuries, and guage if he’s made any progress by the end of the year. Kaman was kind of a funky, special case, with his weird gyrations and turnovers and crazy long receding hair. Bynum is a more intriguing example-at this time last summer he was making slow progress and Kobe didn’t want to wait on him, and by December Bynum was confident and making plays and coming on strong. Jordan doesn’t have to be Bynum-who, like Davis and Liv, has his own significant injury issues—but we’ll see.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 18, 2008 1:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I like

Deandre Jordon. He is a bit raw but give him some time. I’m sure he will learn a lot from Kaman and Camby. You can’t go wrong with those two teaching you the ropes. I love his defensive skills but would love to see him work on his low post moves. Some say he has the potential to be the next Amare without the mid range shot. I can see that…but right now he kinda looks like a Andrew Bynum/Sean Williams. Course that’s just my opinion.

by POZUNO on Jul 17, 2008 11:05 PM PDT   0 recs

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