Cap and Roster Math
This is usually Citizen John R's turf, but from time to time I feel compelled to wander into the realm of the salary cap. It's very complicated of course, and John does a terrific job of keeping it all straight. But I sense there is still confusion out there, and I'm hoping that I can simplify a couple of things. (Of course, there's also the possibility that I just further muddy the already murky waters.)
The idea of renouncing the salary cap exceptions seems to be tripping everyone up, and with good reason. But in this case, it's really pretty straightforward. The minute the Clippers signed an external free agent (i.e. Baron Davis) they essentially gave up all of their exceptions even if they did not specifically renounce them at that time. They had to get under the salary cap to sign Baron, and the exceptions exist only for the use of teams who are over the salary cap. If the mid level exception is $5.8M, and the team is $6M under the cap, they can spend $6M, but they can't spend $11.8M. So either the Clippers had to officially renounce the MLE to make room for Camby or they didn't, but it's not relevant at this point. The relevant number is how far under the actual cap they are.
In fact, it's almost pointless to have the rule about renouncing the exceptions. In the case of the Clippers, the exceptions went away when they signed Baron, even if they didn't necessarily need that money to make the offer. I can only think of one scenario in which you can sign an external free agent AND keep your exceptions - if you can fit a free agent under the cap without renouncing the exceptions, and THEN you go over the cap to re-sign your own free agents. BUT, because there are cap holds for those players as well, it would mean that there was a major difference between the cap hold and the finalized deal. Golden State MAY fall into this category (I haven't looked at the numbers specifically). They signed Maggette, but they may have had room to do that without renouncing the MLE. If they then go above the cap to re-sign Ellis and Biedrins to major deals - both coming off rookie contracts, and Ellis was a second round pick so his cap hold is minuscule - I think they could turn around and use the MLE after Ellis and Biedrins are signed. This is all theoretical - it certainly seems to be true given the Turiaf offer sheet. But it is the type of scenario where a team could sign a free agent AND use an MLE. And it doesn't apply to the Clippers.
So we know that they can not use either the MLE or the bi-annual exception. We know that they had enough room under the cap after signing Davis ($11M?) and trading for Camby ($10M) to offer $3M per to Kelenna Azubuike. What we do not know for certain is how much more (if anything) is left. The LA Times is reporting that $3M is it - there's nothing left. My back of the envelope math has the team at $58.2M in total salary, with the 2008-2009 cap set at $58.7M. So yeah, they're pretty much done.
There may yet be something worthwhile to fish for in the scraps I'm thinking specifically of Shaun Livingston. As a 4 year veteran, his minimum starting salary would be set at about $855K. Could they Clippers combine Marcus Williams' $700K with the $500K they are still under the cap and give Shaun a more interesting offer? Or are there teams out there who are willing to pay him even more than that using a portion of their MLE? It's worth considering in the end game (especially since Williams might very well be available off of waivers), but this is what we're talking about now folks: scrounging for every dime to put together an offer of $1.2M. By the way, I think that Shaun and his agent are going to take their time. I doubt that anyone is going to blow them away with an early offer. I'm guessing many other dominoes will have to fall before Livingston's situation comes into focus.
So for now, we watch and wait to see what the Warriors do with Azubuike. If they decline to match the Clippers offer, then the money is essentially spent. If the Dubs decide to retain Azubuike, the Clippers once again have about $3M to $3.5M to spend. One would assume that some portion of that would be enough to keep Livingston at least, even if there are no other viable targets out there.
Without Azubuike, the team has eight players signed, sealed and delivered - Baron Davis, Kaman, Camby, Mobley, Thomas, Knight, Thornton and Gordon all have guaranteed contracts. Azubuike makes nine. Three more (Jordan, Taylor and Powell) are signed to non-guaranteed or partially guaranteed deals (although I'm not clear on how much of Powell's money is guaranteed). Fazekas and Williams are still restricted free agents as far as I know, but the Clippers would likely not have given them qualifying offers had they not intended to keep them. BUT, there is still a ton of roster flexibility here. Take any one of those last five guys, and if you find someone else willing to play for the minimum who you think is an upgrade, you do it. Mike Taylor is a prime example of this. Both Dan Dickau and Beno Udrih hit the waiver wire after training camp last October, and the same thing will happen this October. If MDsr sees someone out there who makes him feel more comfortable at the point than Taylor (and his 10 turnovers in a single Summer League game), he'll make the switch in a heartbeat.
Looking at the nine guaranteed contracts (including Azubuike), small forward still looks like an issue. Behind Thornton you're playing either Tim Thomas or Azubuike (6'5") or Cat (6'4"). And given that Thomas is probably in the big man rotation with Kaman and Camby, I don't think he'll realistically see a lot of minutes at the 3. Add in the fact that Gordon is a 19 year old rookie, and that Williams was inconsistent in Summer League (three horrible games followed by two good ones doesn't make me feel great) and both wing positions remain dangerously thin. I'm not sure there's much to be done about it, other than jumping on any decent wings that hit the waiver wire. But it's a concern, no question.
As for Azubuike, I like the move. He's athletic, he can score (about 15 per 36 minutes in his career), and he can shoot the long ball (38%). It's probably a collaborative decision on the part of MDsr and Baron Davis to bring in Baron's former teammate, which is a very good sign as well. If Baron will be happy to see Azubuike, I'm not sure that Chris Kaman will be.
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Azu videos
The Kaman clip led me to spend more than a few minutes watching Buike highlight videos on YouTube. Dunk after dunk, with the occasional three and block. Very nice player. Lots of Baron Davis in the highlights, and if GSW doesn’t match it seems like the Clips are kind of reaching into their chest and ripping their heart out. BD is the big time, big guy with pros and cons but gave them a lot of energy and credibility, while Buike is the Cinderella guy on a Cinderella team. There were obviously a lot of chemistry changes on GSW last year, which started with Jason Richardson heading out, and Buike’s d-league Cinderella story consisted of getting beat out and blown away by the rise of Monte Ellis, while a lot of people want to get Bellinelli out on the floor and hitting jump shots. So maybe it’s not that bad.
But at the end of the last thing I watched, an 07-08 Buike highlight reel, the last minute or so is the dunk on Kaman that CS put up, but it includes the aftermath: Kaman bleeding from the elbow shot over his eye, heading off to the locker room, an epic torching. Ralph is wondering if there might have been an offensive foul, while Mike Smith says there’s no way that guy (Azu) wasn’t going to put the ball in the basket.
by citizen zhiv on
Jul 18, 2008 3:53 PM PDT
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What if ...
a team maxed out its cap space and didn’t have enough players to fill out a roster? I know the NBA checks contracts to ensure they comply with arcane salary-matching rules and such, but do they also ensure that a team can field a minimal rotation?
What with renunciations we apparently have 8 guys, or ten, and are pretty much maxed out. If we have ‘only’ half a million to spend on five guys, that can’t possibly work out. And if we waive somebody, doesn’t he still count against our cap space?
And, philosophically speaking, what’s the point of giving a team that’s broken the cap an advantage over a team that hasn’t?
by pipedreams on
Jul 18, 2008 5:00 PM PDT
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Fill it up
You can always sign a player to a minimum contract.
I’m not sure giving a team the MLE every year gives them an advantage. In many ways, its quite a disadvantage to use it every year. Think about it this way, if you always use your full MLE and have a first round pick, you are adding between $7-$9M dollars every year in three to four year contracts, at minimum. You might not ever get under the cap again. Considering these will be rookies and middle of the road players, its not long before you have gotten yourself in real trouble financially.
Then when using the MLE you are talking about the second tier of free agents, at best. All the teams with more than the MLE get first pick of free agents, other things such as competitive balance and weather and tax situation aside.
I would say the MLE is mostly for the players. If not for the MLE, very few players would be able to receive more than a minimum contract each year. The top free agents would get signed, Davis, Brand, Maggette, Arenas, Jamison, and then teams would have no money left for the Posey’s. You think Camby is sore at Denver? Imagine how sore the player’s union would be with teams that use their cap space to help other teams reduce payroll. That might be right or wrong, but the players seem to gain the most from the MLE.
In my humble opinion.
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
by John R on
Jul 18, 2008 5:14 PM PDT
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Just to add a thought
I’m not close to being the expert on these things, but since some people are having trouble understanding the basics of the MLE (which seems pretty simple), I think it’s worth pointing out the difference once again between the salary cap and paying the luxury tax. I don’t have the faintest sense of the numbers involved, but it’s an important basic point that has been overlooked in some of the capologist questions, and it’s kind of at the core of the original question here.
by citizen zhiv on
Jul 18, 2008 5:42 PM PDT
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The players union is indeed pissed.
this is a kick in the nads to their whole philosophy. I think this may be a trend until the next round of meetings.
F-Elton!
by mikey p on
Jul 19, 2008 7:40 AM PDT
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Soft Cap
The cap is not a true hard cap. Even a team over the cap can still spend more money in 4 ways. 1) the MLE, 2) resigning it’s own free agents 3) Bi-Annual exception (1.9 mill this year), 3)siging to fill out a roster. Teams are required to have at least 13 players (12 plus 1 in d-league). If they are at cap or over they can sign any player to the minimum salary (varies based on years in the league) without reguard to the cap. This years cap is 59.5.
Then there is the luxury tax cap based on a percentage of all Basketball Related Income (BRI). Teams pay $1 fine for every $1 of payroll in excess on the luxury cap- this year 71.1 million.
by HT on
Jul 18, 2008 7:16 PM PDT
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Does that mean...
...that Clips could have given more money on Brand (because he was their own player) and simply gone over the cap? And if there’s no dollar for dollar penalty until you hit 71 million, why wouldn’t they? (Forget that last part, way too complicated.) Doesn’t that have something to do with bird rights?
The reason people don’t get the MLE is because it seems to reward people already over the cap, and limit those people who are just under the cap.
by swamigusto on
Jul 19, 2008 8:31 AM PDT
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Yes and no
They could have given Brand any amount of money they wanted.
It simply would have effected how much money they could give to other free agents.
So they could have given Brand more money, but it would have cost them Baron Davis.
“BD and 75” seemed to be the sweet spot being fair to both players and legal under the cap.
Its these things combined why a smart person should realize that EB has told at least one lie along the way. The Clippers could not have possibly met his demands any better.
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
by John R on
Jul 19, 2008 11:46 AM PDT
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Okay.... bear with me....
Let’s say Brand doesn’t option out. The Clips renounce Maggette and get rid of some other salary adding up to 12M (for arguments sake). They use that money to sign Davis. Next year Brand’s contract is up and he wants 120 million over six years. They can sign him for that even though it puts them over the cap. Right?
But is it ownership of Brand’s Bird rights that enables them to do that?
Following that, when Camby’s deal is up in two years, the Clips won’t have his Bird rights, so, they cannot go over the cap to sign him. Right? Wrong? Close?
And that’s why if Livingston only sees minimum offers, the best deal might be with the Clips. Because they can go anywhere with his salary. Right?
by swamigusto on
Jul 19, 2008 5:01 PM PDT
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Ok
If Brand had not opted out, but the Clippers still dumped Maggette et al, they may have been come up with enough money to still sign Baron. Assuming that, then after this season, they could have signed Brand to any amount up to the max, even though they would start out over the cap and end up even farther over the cap.
It is ownership of Bird rights that would enable them to do that.
The Clippers WILL have Camby’s Bird rights. He changed teams, but not as a free agent. So the Clippers could exceed the cap to resign them for themselves or to use him as a sign and trade.
That is correct about Livingston. It really is in his best interest to get back with the Clippers. If he came back and averages 20-10-10, the Clippers could pay him anything up to the max. If he plays for someone else next year he will just be another free agent vying for the same dollars as everyone else with such names as Marion and Boozer out there. So really his best case is likely the MLE, and then that would most likely again reset his Bird rights counter, except in the 1 in 30 chance he takes the MLE from the team he plays for next year. No team would likely have his Bird rights until, what…summer of 2013? Something like that?
I mean, even if he is talking about taking a 3M contract instead of the minimum, that’s a nice short term gain at possibly huge long term cost. If I’m NOT the Clippers, I’m definitely having TEAM options in Livingston’s contract. If he blows up, I’m not letting him out until after the second year. So now that’s probably 2014 until he could get his payday, when the Clippers could just give it to him next year.
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
by John R on
Jul 19, 2008 6:28 PM PDT
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Shaun needs to sign a long term deal as soon as possible
He is destined to have more knee injuries.
F-Elton!
by mikey p on
Jul 20, 2008 7:58 AM PDT
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A couple other things...
When a player is traded, their Bird rights are traded with him. So the Clippers have Bird rights to Camby. John implied this, but I thought I’d make it explicit. Bird rights follow a player in a trade.
Looking at the math, the Clippers could not have made a good enough offer to Baron had Felton not opted out. That’s just a technicality. The rest of your hypothetical is accurate.
Last clarification: when you say “the best deal might be with the Clips. Because they can go anywhere with his salary” that is correct if you’re talking about 2009 (I think – see below). They can’t offer him any more than the minimum (pending the Buike offer) because they had to renounce him.
Here’s the thing I’m not quite sure of – John – now that they’ve renounced him and given up his Bird rights, are we sure they get those rights back next summer? Is it strictly consecutive years with the same team, or does the clock start over when the rights are renounced? It’s pretty unusual that a player whose rights were renounced re-signs with that team, so I can’t come up with a precedent.
The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!
by Steve Perrin on
Jul 19, 2008 7:57 PM PDT
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They get them back
He just can’t change teams as a free agent or be waived.
MDSr. also confirmed this in one of his many dazzling radio segments.
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
by John R on
Jul 19, 2008 9:06 PM PDT
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Thanks
The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!
by Steve Perrin on
Jul 19, 2008 9:09 PM PDT
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I get it! Finally!
Thanks for your patience.
by swamigusto on
Jul 20, 2008 7:48 AM PDT
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Wait a minute
If it is true that the Clippers could have paid EB far more next year had he not opted out, why the heck would he have opted out this year if he really wanted to stay with the Clippers? With Bird rights they would have had more than any other team to pay him – or at least one extra year, no?
by Jax on
Jul 19, 2008 9:39 PM PDT
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Wasn't it Steve's hypothesis
that his opting out would be a sign he wanted to stay with the Clippers because he would be able to get more money?
by Jax on
Jul 19, 2008 9:46 PM PDT
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Two ways to look at it...
If you believe MDsr’s story (and the text messages that back it up, I guess), FElton opted out this summer specifically to allow the Clippers the flexibility to sign another good player now so that the team could improve. EB said as much in his press conference, and there’s little question that it cost him money. His starting salary in Philly is less than the final year of his Clippers’ contract, and barring a significant drop off in production or another injury, he would have signed for more in summer 2009, when more teams had money to spend. As is, the Dubs offered 5/$90M, and the Sixers and Clippers jumped thru hoops to get to 5/$80M. In this version of the story, the Clippers disrespected him in negotiations and that’s why he’s in Philly.
Or, he wanted out of LA from the minute DTS matched Miami’s offer in 2003, and he opted out and signed elsewhere the first chance he got. Oh, and he lied about his intentions the whole time.
The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!
by Steve Perrin on
Jul 19, 2008 9:54 PM PDT
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Or his agent convinced him he was disrespected...
and caused him to change his mind.
by swamigusto on
Jul 20, 2008 7:45 AM PDT
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I suspect that this
wasn’t the case. EB is a smart, thoughtful guy. I’ve met him on several occasions. My impression of him is that he is a good guy, does not volunteer his opinions, and that he can think for himself. I suspect that he himself didn’t like how the Clippers handled this, that Stefanski (the excellent new Philly GM) presented a good case, and that he rethought things such as location, where he thought the Clippers were going, etc., and decided to make the change. BD wasn’t hurt by this – he now has the long term deal he coveted.
by Jax on
Jul 20, 2008 9:33 AM PDT
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But even good, smart people...
...who are very capable of thinking for themselves are often influenced by other personalities (some good, some bad). It’s why great leaders seek opinions from multiple and diverse advisors before they act. Your position seems to be that Brand is good and Clippers management is bad. I think the water is muddier than that. Harry Truman and the bomb. JFK and the Bay of Pigs. History is full of bad decisions by decent people. (And there I go… my argument overflows the glass….)
by swamigusto on
Jul 20, 2008 11:23 AM PDT
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Actually I don't really know what happened
I’m just speculating like we all are. I don’t know whether management bears any share of fault here or not. And I don’t know whether he relied on Falk’s counsel or not, or to what degree he relied on it, or really what precisely Falk’s counsel was. I also don’t know whether in the NBA directly negotiating with players who have agents is beyond the pale.
Even if EB didn’t rely on Falk’s counsel, and decided to do what he did for himself, that wouldn’t necessarily make him blameless in the eyes of most Clipper fans because, based on his prior statements, it appears he lied or changed his mind. (If the latter, Clipper faithful would say that he should have honored what they perceive as a promise.)
You are right, history is full of such decisions.
by Jax on
Jul 20, 2008 11:37 AM PDT
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Right, but wasn't your premise prior to the deadline
that his opting out signified a desire to stay? Was the basis for your argument that he’d be safer to take the extension now, rather than wait a year and possibly get more money, because he could get hurt or not perform up to expectations following surgery in the interim?
by Jax on
Jul 20, 2008 9:29 AM PDT
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That was my premise, yes...
I was looking primarily at two potential motivations – greed and loyalty. (At that time I was of course completely unaware of any Baron Davis scenario.)
Opting out in 2008 meant the best non-Clipper deal he could expect to get was starting at about $11M from the Sixers. So opting out made no sense from a greed standpoint, if he wanted to leave. The most logical thing, to may pea brain, as of the morning of June 30, was that an opt out indicated a long term deal with the Clippers. Surely they would offer him more than $11M (they did). So the really greed-driven thing to do would have been to play out the option, become a FA in 2009 when more teams had money, and look for the big pay day.
But obviously I was wrong. Initially, the Baron Davis thing made it look even more likely that EB would stay – the Clippers could still pay him more than anyone else save the Warriors, and the Davis signing seemed to satisfy his final request of building a serious contender.
But the Sixers jumped through the hoops to find more money. In the end, the two motivations of greed and loyalty weren’t the only things. Family seems to have played a role. And maybe there was some anger and bitterness too. Who knows?
The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!
by Steve Perrin on
Jul 20, 2008 2:20 PM PDT
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Falk's role cannot be overstated
H did not like the fact that Dunleavy was negotiating with his own player, so he orchestrated a deal with Philly.
Sixers GM Stefanski acknowledges as much; that Falk was instrumental in working out the math and basically deciding what moves needed to be made (and who was to be traded) in order to get EB to Philly.
Getting EB more money than the Clippers, but less that GSW, was the ploy. It allows their camp to claim that EB is not about the money, but he was being lowballed by the Clippers. See…even Philly was able to outbid LA.
F-Elton!
by mikey p on
Jul 20, 2008 2:59 PM PDT
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Not sure that this was their beef
First, it may well be true that hte custom and practice in the NBA is that negotiations must go through the agents. I don’t konw, but there are good reasons for this. Such is typically the case in business, where parties typically negotiate through their lawyers.
Second, I thought that the complaint was that the Clippers didn’t lay out their cards on the table in the beginning, not that they were being lowballed. Contrast how the Wiz negotiated with Arenas. Again, this is a custom and practice issue.
by Jax on
Jul 20, 2008 3:12 PM PDT
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Player approached Coach about the upcoming season
They discuss how to improve the team. Player tells coach he is willing to take less money to get some talent in here.
I’m not seeing the problem.
F-Elton!
by mikey p on
Jul 22, 2008 7:39 AM PDT
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That's a great question
If it is true that the Clippers could have paid EB far more next year had he not opted out, why the heck would he have opted out this year if he really wanted to stay with the Clippers?
Who knows? But it definitely means he told a lie.
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
by John R on
Jul 20, 2008 7:57 AM PDT
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That's totally wrong...
I think it is his 2007 salary. No way it’s his 2008, or there would have been no money for Buike. Starting salary of $11M, approx. 5/$65M seems about right. At least the math works for Buike’s deal.
The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!
by Steve Perrin on
Jul 19, 2008 7:50 PM PDT
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It is probaly his salary from last year
I can’t see the team setting him up with a regressing salary.
F-Elton!
by mikey p on
Jul 20, 2008 8:00 AM PDT
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Just reading through this now
There seems to be an interesting wrinkle here on the FElton debacle.
So we know he could have played this year for the Clips, and then made more money next year. That offer was on the table from the Clips, responding to a proposal from Falk. That’s the 120mil deal, that Dunleavy says DTS wasn’t willing to do with FElton coming off an injury and a down year in 06-07.
In the same context, CS was stating that an opt-out would be a good sign because the Clips could pay him more than anybody else, and he would be making a longterm deal.
My own theory is that somewhere in here, just as Dunleavy started talking to FElton to try to figure out what might be done, FElton wasn’t doing a very good job of communicating with his agent Falk. As I’ve said before, when FElton saw the Celtics win the title, he must have asked, how do you put a team like that together? Did he ask Dunleavy or Falk or both?
At some point he told Dunleavy that the important thing would be to sign a good free agent. Dunleavy must have explained to him that this might require him to take less money, and he probably gave him the 15mil/yr ballpark figure.
These talks were probably based on signing Udrih—and the Clips made the 12:01am offer to Udrih. But leading up to that, Dunleavy might have mentioned to FElton that Davis could also opt out of his deal. We don’t know FElton’s level of sophistication about Davis’ deal, and his discussions with Dunleavy about Davis. The Udrih offer suggests that they were minimal, and the plan was ostensibly based on getting Udrih, and perhaps resigning Maggette.
Signs point to the likelihood that FElton contacted Baron Davis, perhaps just to ask him if he was planning to opt out. The Clippers responded awfully quickly to the news that Davis had opted out. And by the way, Udrih responded quickly too—he signed with the Kings and never responded to the Clippers offer.
So now things were moving fast. The Clippers signed Davis and submitted their offer to FElton, the deal that was marked up by Falk. At which point Falk was definitely in the picture. And as soon as Falk was involved, he started trying to maximize the value of his client. He sequestered FElton and started talking to Philly and put the newfound Warriors capspace to good use. He told Philly to move players to find more money. He and Stefanski were heading towards making a deal, while the Clips were being shut out.
But this all looks a little different if we back up to FElton’s original decision to opt out, thereby giving up his chance to make the most money.
In the end, FElton changed his mind, under Falk’s influence of course. There was a time period where FElton and Falk were definitely not on the same page. It seems that Falk was never okay with FElton making anything less than the highest amount he could possibly make. Falk was probably okay with trying to negotiate with the Clippers as long as they were making the deal with Udrih—that left lots of money for FElton. But how much did Falk know about the whole unfolding Baron Davis scenario? It was based on winning and the “Boston epiphany,” but it was always going to compromise FElton’s compensation. It seems as if Falk never even began to sign off on this scenario, and as soon as he became involved he started making aggressive moves to blow it up.
Dunleavy was well within his rights to get a verbal agreement from FElton to try to build a winning team, based on FElton’s assurance that he would take less money to win. But it turns out that he was naive to believe that FElton controlled his agent, and that the basic agreement would withstand the detailed, lawyerly dealmaking process. Dunleavy was duped to a degree by his belief in FElton’s character, and the idea that he was doing the right thing for the team with FElton’s full support, trying to grab a star and win. Dunleavy must have been ecstatic as he was putting this together, and he must have been absolutely blindsided by the betrayal. It was probably a slow bleed, however, as things just slowed down while Falk was putting together the deal with Stefanski and FElton stopped communicating.
Of course it’s impossible to construct the exact sequence, but it does seem to clarify things to go back to the opt out and read forward everybody’s character and actions from what we know today.
by citizen zhiv on
Jul 21, 2008 1:17 PM PDT
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Some interesting points
I have a few quibbles
First, Davis and EB are friends (they were seen hanging out together last week at Spectrum MB, for example). As I understand it, they spoke about this before BD opted out. They could have cooked this whole thing up together. I don’t know if EB would have been satisfied with Udrih. I do know, however, that the move benefitted BD regardless, so perhaps the real plan was EB telling BD that he’d do what he could to get him over to the Clippers in a long term deal, and EB might or might not come back. Seems to me BD’s reaction upon learning that EB was not coming back (who cares) would support that notion.
Second, as I understand it EB and Falk actually went to Philly early on after the opt out to generate some interest on Philly’s part.
Third, you say that MDSr was well within his rights to contact EB directly. If what you mean is that a party is well within his rights to contact the opposing party, I suppose that’s true in the abstract, but you have to be very careful when you do so, particularly where your opposing party (here EB) has all the leverage and the move could easily backfire because of the influence of the representative / lawyer. Therefore, at least in business, such moves would typically be associated with desperation – last – ditch efforts because of the risks involved. Stated another way, MDSr’s attempt to contact EB directly was a sign that MDSr knew that the deal was far from certain.
Fourth, I think that you are leaping to unfounded conclusions by assaulting EB’s character here. You dno’t have all the facts, or what was said between the parties, and EB’s historically had a pretty good image.
by Jax on
Jul 21, 2008 1:46 PM PDT
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Why assume Dunleavy contacted FElton?
I believe it was the other way around. Brand was texting Dunleavy, telling him what he needed to make a deal. Either way, it is coach talking to player. Not illegal.
And it is not just what EB told Dunleavy. EB and Falk said to the media that they wanted to give the Clippers the flexibility to get other players around EB. The Clippers obliged, signing a top 5 PG.
So what did Falk and EB do? They gutted the Sixers to get EB an extra $7M.
I blame Falk. He didn’t like that fact that EB and Dunleavy had worked out a plan to get Elton $75M and Baron Davis without him. So he railroaded it.
I don’t blame Elton. He pays David Falk to give him advice. He is wise to take it.
But this is soooooo obvious. If EB didn’t want to be here, as you suggest, since “nobody wants to play for the Clippers”, then why did he say he did? Was he lying? Perhaps.
I don’t hold the Clippers blameless. I don’t think they quite gave EB the franchise player treatment that I would have. I would have rolled out the red carpet. Flown Brand and his wife by private plane to Sterling’s vacation house in Jackson Hole, or to a hotel suite in Hawaii. Told him that I will retire his number, build him a bronze statue, and give him 1% ownership when he retires.
I would not have told him that “Mr. Sterling is unavailable”. But that’s just me. The Clippers didn’t do that.
Still, it does not mean that EB didn’t commit to Dunleavy, and it definitely doesn’t mean the obvious…that David Falk killed the deal. And if he killed it because he was resentful that they matched Miami’s offer in 2003, then that means that Falk was lying when he said EB intends to re-sign with the Clips.
F-Elton!
by mikey p on
Jul 21, 2008 2:45 PM PDT
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We don't even have to assume
Brand contacted Dunleavy. How do I know? Was I in the room? Of course not. But MDsr’s story holds water, and Falk/Brand’s story does not. Falk has admitted that everything MDsr said was true, and maintains he still should have known better. By contrast, when Brand said the Clippers did not offer an ETO, MDsr says, “not true, we did, here’s the text messages where he asked for it, here’s the text message where I said it was done.” Again, he hasn’t shown these texts to me, but he has shown them to the beat writers, the radio guys, etc. No one has called MDsr on his facts. No one.
The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!
by Steve Perrin on
Jul 21, 2008 3:14 PM PDT
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Steve
It might be helpful to actually see those text messages as well as the timing. Did he actually show them to those folks or did he just refer to them.
Sooner or later we’ll get to the bottom of this interesting and tragic story.
by Jax on
Jul 21, 2008 4:10 PM PDT
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timestamps...
apparently, Dunleavy was showing off the timestamps on his text messages to the beat writers. I haven’t tried to figure out where the texts fit in to the timeline, but there you go.
by gfngfgf on
Jul 21, 2008 8:00 PM PDT
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You assume alot, Zhiv, about NBA player negotiations
And I seem to recall that MDSr contacted EB directly to negotiate and that this is what upset Falk, at least according to Falk.
EB and Falk contacted the sixers before MDSr contacted them, I believe.
Who says that nobody wants to play for the Clippers? I didn’t. I think he changed his mind, but I also think that part of the thought process that led to that decision was the management / coaching issue.
by Jax on
Jul 21, 2008 4:09 PM PDT
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Quibbling
Try to break this down a little bit now.
1. FElton and Davis are friends. Were friends. A little hard to see them hanging out at the gym after all this, but maybe. Yes, they could have come up with the plan together—but isn’t it just more logical to think that the plan was for them to play together? This version follows the original Et tu, EB scenario, where the only way for Baron to come to the Clips was for best man Maggette to opt out.
On “perhaps the real plan was…”: it seems like a little stretch. But maybe it works. Come to Clips. They’ll make your deal. If they make my deal, fine, if not, you’ll still be in LA. I still choose to believe that they intended to play together. It was too tight a fit.
On BD’s reaction: it sounded like it was diplomatic, a little player/free agent solidarity. BD was saying “it’s just business,” but we should remember he had just made a sudden move and turned his back on GSW fans. I don’t think we know his private reaction, but he couldn’t have been happy to lose a player like FElton, especially if they were friends. I don’t buy “who cares” as genuine. Palatable, and a sound bite. Dunleavy said that Baron was disappointed and pissed. Lemming-like, I choose to believe Dunleavy.
On Udrih: I think Udrih makes sense if you go back to the opt out and look at FElton’s logic. Dunleavy always wanted Udrih. He was trying to make it happen. With Udrih signed and Maggette opting out, the Clips could have made a more substantial offer to FElton, and they still would have had money for an Azubuike or they could have made a good offer to Maggette. I think Falk might have thought that was how it would go, and he thought he would be able to negotiate for more money.
2. I believe that Falk and FElton already had the “marked up” offer from the Clips when they went to Philly “early on” after the opt out. Falk was already very much in the mix at that point, obviously. It was right before FElton went off the grid.
3, I don’t really agree with your characterization of the pre-opt out period, and the relationship between a longtime coach and longtime player. It’s natural for it to go into the gray area. There’s a knowledge that you have to negotiate the details and it can always break down and fall apart. Dunleavy is not really “the opposing party” to FElton. He’s trying to figure out a way to make things work, a way for the team to win, a way for his best player to make a good deal and be happy. There’s a way to do these things going into a negotiation. It’s not necessarily desperation.
Gotta go. Finish later.
by citizen zhiv on
Jul 21, 2008 9:14 PM PDT
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Ok Zhiv, my man, sometimes you have a tendency to speculate so much that you tend to believe your own prose
First, you’re actually disputing that EB and BD were hanging together last week? You must really have alot of time on your hands. if you must know, one of my sons attended a basketball camp at Spectrum last week. BD helped out in the camp on one of the days. He was also hanging out with EB, who also greeted a number of the campers, including my son. Camp is run by a former Hornets assistant coach. I wasn’t there, however. Perhaps my kid (and wife) were lying, or mistaken. However, I doubt it since we belong to Spectrum and my son’s met EB at least 10 times before.
Second, with all due respect it is laughable that you think these professoinal athletes are actually upset at each other or that these friends didn’t know what was going to go down way before you did.
By the way, no one is calling you a lemming. Just consider the possibility that your theory on this may just be wrong.
Udrih is not a real starting PG in the NBA. Unlikely EB would have thought that Udrih was enough, especially compared to Andre Miller.
Third, it doesn’t appear that you knew EB went to Philly until I just told you.
Fourth, please tell me one negotiation situation other than this one of which you are aware where the coach / GM contacted the player directly. You can’t, I know. Of course they are opposing parties – MDSr is management, EB is employee. You have absolutely no idea how management played this, what they said, how they approached this, whether MDSr called EB, whether the way this went down is typical, or anything else about it.
Let’s wait until more information comes out before we start speculating about such things. That’s my advice, at least. In the meantime, I’ll ask an NBA agent what’s typical and for his thoughts on this, and get back to you.
by Jax on
Jul 21, 2008 9:46 PM PDT
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Jax
You continually tell others not to speculate, as you yourself do nothing but speculate.
I repeat, no one – not Elton Brand, not David Falk – no one – has disputed MDsr’s version of events. Falk says simply there should not have been direct contact with a free agent without his representation. I cannot speak to custom, CBA or anything else as regards this position. Of course, if it actually violated the CBA, I think MDsr would have known that, and I’m pretty sure Falk would have been showing everyone the specific bylaw. So I think we can assume it is not expressly forbidden.
MDsr says Brand contacted him. Furthermore, MDsr says that Brand said “Forget all that stuff that David is saying – here’s what I want.” So let me re-establish a point – no one has disputed anything that MDsr has said. If the point of the discussion was ‘ignore what my agent is saying’ then it stands to reason that (a) Brand initiated the conversation and (b) Falk was not included.
You want more information, but you ignore the information that is available.
The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!
by Steve Perrin on
Jul 21, 2008 10:30 PM PDT
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Ok Ok, but
On another note, someone posted an unsubstantiated rumor on Clipperblog that the Clippers are trying to get Vince Carter for Mobley and change.
Wow – would be fun and fascinating.
by Jax on
Jul 21, 2008 4:22 PM PDT
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Saw that too...
but how does that even come close to working $$wise? The clips would have to give up Mobley AND Thomas just to get in the same ballpark…how old is VC now anyway?
by Clip Show on
Jul 21, 2008 4:41 PM PDT
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Not sure how the numbers work
Can you trade draft picks and the like to equalize the money? Even if you do, I suspect that the additional salary would count against the cap. Frankly, I don’t know how much VC makes.
My question would be whether the luxury tax kicks in if by a trade like that we go $3M or so over the cap.
VC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cat
by Jax on
Jul 21, 2008 4:45 PM PDT
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Questionable
Means that one way or another the Clips would end up spending most of that 2010 capspace on the last two years of Vince Carter—17 million in 2010 and 18 million the next year. Clips could presumably get a younger, more productive player with all of that cash. Seems like it could come dangerously close to the “no bad contracts” line very quickly. But yeah, it could be pretty fun right now if it worked.
by citizen zhiv on
Jul 21, 2008 8:49 PM PDT
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Hate the Carter to the Clips idea
Hate it.
This is a nice team now. In 2010 there will be boatloads of money, and a ton of free agents who will be compelled to play alongside a solid PG and Center.
F-Elton!
by mikey p on
Jul 22, 2008 7:28 AM PDT
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