Clips Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: Jays Stun Rays With Walkoff Granny Bar-right-arrows



Iverson for Brand for Camby

It doesn't always work this way, but it's interesting to note that the Clippers, Sixers and Nuggets just (kind of) participated in a blockbuster, three-team, three-player trade that took about 19 months to complete.

When Philadelphia sent Iverson to the Nuggets in December 2006, they did so with the specific intention of freeing up some cap space to sign a free agent.  Unfortunately, since the rotting carcass of Chris Webber was still on their books, they wouldn't actually have the cap space until 2008.  But Joe Smith's expired contract is a big chunk of the money that ended up going to Elton Brand.

So the transaction moved pretty slowly those first 19 months, waiting for Philly to clear the rest of the cap space.  And then it shifted into high gear.  The Sixers used their new found cap space, created in part by the Iverson trade, to lure Elton Brand back east. 

The Clippers wasted no time in trading their Brand-vacated cap space and little else to Denver for Marcus Camby.  And why did Denver make that trade?  Because they were so far over the salary cap due in large part to Iverson's $20M contract. 

Obviously there are a few other factors here.  Philly got two draft picks, and they still have Andre Miller.  Denver has a $10M trade exception they may yet use.  But the principals of this slow-motion trade are Iverson and Brand and Camby.

It would seem in the early analysis that Philadelphia was the winner.  Don't forget that they made the playoffs in the East in their first full season without Iverson, which they had not done for their last several seasons with Iverson.  So it was already addition-by-subtraction.  Andre Miller has played well for them and they got the draft pick that became Jason Smith (they squandered the other pick).  And now they add Brand. 

Obviously, the Clippers would never have chosen to trade Elton Brand straight up for Marcus Camby.  Even so, it's too early to call them losers in this trade.  Most importantly, Camby makes less money than Elton Brand, and for significantly fewer seasons (two as opposed to five).  So just as Philly's success story has taken 19 months to come together, don't judge the Clippers quite yet.

Denver is the obvious loser so far.  Not only did they fare no better with Iverson on board than they did before, that was WITH Camby.  And in a very real sense, they gave up not just two 2007 first round picks, but also a 2008 first round pick, since they sold that pick to avoid having to pay luxury tax on a guaranteed rookie salary.  Andre Miller, Marcus Camby, and three first round picks is a lot to give up for the privilege to pay Allen Iverson $20M per season while losing eight straight playoff games.

1 recs | Comment 44 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Clippers are like Club Med....

Everybody’s just visiting… No jersey numbers retiring…. No continuity…. We can blame Brand for leaving but we also have to blame our selves for giving him a reason to leave.

by Akram47 on Jul 19, 2008 11:12 PM PDT   0 recs

Great point

It’s not up to the players to create a culture of winning.

by Jax on Jul 20, 2008 9:39 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So it's our fault?

Not sure I get that. Ownership/management’s fault? Yeah, that I can see. If we vote with our wallets and refuse to come to the games because management or players are a bunch of tools, it usually gets blamed instead on a disinterested fan base. But when the Clips win, there’s plenty of people in the seats. That, and the very existence of this very active blog proves that there’s no disinterest on the part of the fans. So how can we blame ourselves for Brand leaving?

by swamigusto on Jul 20, 2008 8:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It is not the fault of the fans

Ownership must commit resources to winning. Competent management must be hired.

by Jax on Jul 20, 2008 8:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree, but...

...the Dunleavy era is sooo much better than where we were before. He actually seems to have changed Sterling’s thinking… perhaps combined with blossoming revenues generated by the move to Stapes Center. You can hate MD for his stodgy offense but the dude seems to have changed a culture. I’ve a feeling it’s why most of us are still around at all. That’s certainly the case for me.
Certainly doesn’t mean it couldn’t be better. Andy Roeser doesn’t seem to be much more than an accountant.

by swamigusto on Jul 21, 2008 7:26 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I have a question

If good players are unwilling to come to the Clippers, why would “competent management” join the organization?

It sounds like this team is doomed. Is competent ownership needed, too? And if that is the case, wouldn’t it be much easier to just root for the Lakers than to hope for Sterling to sell or for Jerry West or Kevin Presti to sign on as GM?

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Jul 21, 2008 8:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Mikey - you have identified a crucial problem

It all falls back to the owner. We know the historical problems with this owner. he’s changed somewhat, as we know, paying MDSr, paying free agents, etc., but the legacy of the poor management he’s hired continues. And there are other continuing “cheapness” issues. For example, I heard somewhere that some team personnel were forced to drive to Vegas for the summer league. Come on.

The MDSr era is much better. They’ve tasted success now. It’s time for the next step.

Yes, it would be much easier to root for the Lakers. Is that something you’re considering?

by Jax on Jul 21, 2008 9:10 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No way

I am not going to root for the Lakers. There is no need, because I have not placed impossible expectations on the Clippers. Nor have I made it so difficult to be happy with them.

I feel like you have kind of painted yourself into a corner of discontent. You seem unhappy with the Clippers because of their incompetent management (which is vague – is management Elgin?), and you say the problem starts with the owner, who is unlikely to sell the team.

It is self-assured misery for you to be a Clippers fan.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Jul 21, 2008 9:49 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Come on

Only in California would one equate fanhood with cheerleading. I trust that this is not where you’re coming from.

by Jax on Jul 21, 2008 9:53 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Then what are you a fan of?

Incompetent management?

I am not saying to be a cheerleader. Just be reasonable.

And give yourself a break, unless you like hating your team (very common on the east coast).

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Jul 21, 2008 9:57 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Why do you care?

I’m simply interested in analyzing the viability of the management and coaching of the team I root for because I believe strong management and coaching are essential, in my view, to winning an NBA championship. Those are areas of interest for me. Just like John R, for example, enjoys analyzing the NBA collective bargaining agreement and its impact on the team.

by Jax on Jul 21, 2008 10:03 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's cool - I don't care really

I’m just wondering. It just seems to me that sports should be fun, and I don’t think it would be fun to root for such an incompetent team.

Just my opinion. I also happen to disagree that management is such a huge problem for the Clippers. Frugality was a problem, but is no longer. I don’t really see how Clipper managment is any more incompetent than the majority of NBA teams out there. And it is far from the worst (see Hawks, Timberwolves, Knicks, Grizzlies, Bucks, Bulls, and a few others).

And please recognize that ever since the wallet opened, the Clippers have done pretty well in free agency and trades. They suck at drafting, with the exceptions of Kaman and Thornton, who fell in their laps. There is a culture of losing here, but it is being eroded year by year. Anyway…

We are into some wierd psychology here. I assume you you live in CA, yet you equate CA fanhood to cheerleading (I always thought the knock was that we were fickle).

It seems like this is another example of “self-hate”. Nothing personal. We just differ.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Jul 21, 2008 10:46 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I didn't

equate Cal fanhood with cheerleading. I said that only in Cali would one do so, meaning that if cheerleaders could be found, they would be found in California.

I’m not comparing Clipper management to other poorly-managed teams. I want the Clippers to excel.

“Self-hatred”? I have no idea what you’re talking about.

by Jax on Jul 21, 2008 10:50 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Just the closest analogy I could come up with

I guess I just feel like you are beating a dead-horse about Clipper managment, which isn’t likely to change anytime soon. It must be very frusturating for you to root for a team while despising it’s leaders.

I can understand a little. One can love America and hate it’s leaders. But it is easier to just root for the Spurs or something. It is harder to change countries.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Jul 21, 2008 11:10 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's not frustrating and I don't despise anyone

I would respectfully suggest that you move on because I think that “pop” psychology can be dangerous. And I don’t want to start analyzing you.

by Jax on Jul 21, 2008 11:19 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ok

going to lunch.

You are free to analyze me if you wish. I see no danger in it.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Jul 21, 2008 11:22 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think

that we’ve been posting here for too long, as Clipper fans, to start analyzing each other like that. It’s not necessary and could result in unintended consequences.

by Jax on Jul 21, 2008 11:28 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow

Mikey’s feeling so good these days he’s ready to get into it with Jax. I thought that was part of John R’s triumvirate job description, but I’m sure he’s more than happy to share.

My own take here: Dunleavy has definitely changed the culture for the better. The bounceback from the FElton debacle was impressive, but it was still a bounceback from a most unfortunate set of circumstances, and that’s a generous characterization of the circumbstances.

Sterling is still, more or less, Sterling. Dunleavy has had a good effect on him too—when they’re actually talking to each other.

It’s an evolution, fairly slow, but there’s progress. And I think that Baron Davis is going to pay huge dividends, amongst other very positive signs. Clips seem to be acting like grown ups on a pretty consistent basis.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 21, 2008 12:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nothing personal

I mean Jax no ill will. He seems to be a smart, decent fellow. We agree a good deal of the time.

I am no crack psychologist. I just keep getting the impression that he doesn’t like the Clippers and I’m starting to get a little annoyed by it.

But alas, it is none of my business how anyone chooses to root for the team.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Jul 21, 2008 2:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm annoyed by the lemming-like attitude

of many Clippers fans, but I deal with it. I can only lead them to water . . .

by Jax on Jul 21, 2008 2:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ok, then we're even

Blogging is fun

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Jul 21, 2008 2:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

since this is sports themed...

You may want to change that to :

I can only lead them to Vitaminwater…

You might an endorsement deal out of it. Good luck!

"Lets get one thing straight, the only reason you are conscious right now is because I don't feel like carrying you." - Jack Bauer

"Consequences, Schmonsequences, as long as I'm rich." - Daffy Duck

by Badd on Jul 21, 2008 5:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Interesting way to look at it

The NBA salary cap does create a domino effect of sorts. The Webber trade with SAC and Philly got this rolling. The Kings took on the bad Kenny Thomas deal, and are trying to unload that with Artest. Etc.

The Clippers made one very lopsided “trade” in Baron Davis (& Az?) for Corey Maggette, and one so-so “trade”, Camby for Brand.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Jul 20, 2008 8:13 AM PDT   0 recs

There were alot of ramifications on the Chris Webber deal

I liked it then, and I think the deal did some good things for the team in the long run. But there are people who took a wait & see on that trade who now consider it terrible given that Webber’s contract expired this past season, and Thomas is still on the books for 2 more seasons.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 22, 2008 11:42 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

if you turn that into

Iverson for Brand for Camby for Amare in 2010. Then it sounds like a great deal for the Clips.

by DocD on Jul 20, 2008 10:37 AM PDT   0 recs

I like the thought

The Clips should have a good team in 10 (Baron, Kaman, Thornton, Gordon, Buikie, Jordan) and lots of money to spend. They should be able to get somebody good.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 20, 2008 2:14 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Interesting Analysis But One Small Quibble

This wasn’t such a terrible detour for Denver either. Prior to the Iverson trade, the Nugs were a decent but not especially interesting team led by Melo, Camby and Miller. They turned that group into a more exciting, entertaining trio of AI, Melo and Camby for a year and a half. The results were a bit disappointing, but at least they tried. And they put a team on the floor that fans wanted to see (although I admit I don’t know how much their attendance actually changed).

Overpaying K-Mart and Nene is what really hurt the Nuggets. Giving up Miller and a couple draft picks who didn’t turn into much was no great loss. Losing Camby obviously hurts, but he wasn’t in their long term plans. The 2008 draft pick (Ajinca) was traded, not sold, to the Bobcats for a 2009 1st. If the Nugs bomb this season, they could end up with a couple high draft picks next year and then the trade exception or cap space (later) to rebuild around Melo. No need to feel too bad for them.

by ClipCat on Jul 20, 2008 9:52 PM PDT   0 recs

Seems like several quibbles!

All well taken. My bad on the 2008 pick – I told myself I should look that up to make sure, but then forgot all about it. Pesky facts!

There’s no doubt that KMart is the worst contract, followed by Nene’s. The irony of that of course is that Camby was actually incredibly productive for his salary – especially when you consider the performance bonuses which protect them (and now the Clippers) if he gets hurt. But no one would touch KMart or Nene, so Camby is the one they had to move in order to get under the tax. No single contract can put a team over the luxury tax threshold, which is after all $72M or whatever. It’s invariably a series of decisions. BUT, I stand by the assertion that the acquisition of Iverson (who is after all making $12M more than Miller this season) sealed their fate, and forced them to move Camby.

I’d also submit that Stan Kroenke must be bitterly disappointed that the many millions of dollars he spent to add Iverson to that team and then lose 8 straight first round playoff games. His timing was awful – he built a 50 win team in the Western Conference when 50 wins got you the 8th seed. But still.

Should anyone feel sorry for them? Don’t know how to answer that. But the very idea of building around a Carmelo max salary, with Melo, KMart and Nene scheduled to make a combined $45M in 2010-2011, is a horrible situation. Look at it this way – Carmelo can be a free agent the same time Martin’s deal comes off the books, and before Nene’s. If they’re planning on giving JR Smith a decent contract, there’s no cap space to add someone next to Carmelo even after Iverson’s contract is gone. It’s not a good situation.

The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!

by ClipperSteve on Jul 21, 2008 10:35 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I've read Jeremy's take from Pickaxe and Roll Steve

He likes the deal all things considering, and feels Camby’s defense is overrated particularly on the perimeter. Interesting read’s for those trying to gain a feel on where Camby’s actual value to the Clippers will be this year. (It’s on the front page all of the takes he’s posted.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 22, 2008 11:46 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't quite buy it

Hard for the leader in blocks and DRebs to be overrated. Especially considering that his teammates played zero d.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Jul 22, 2008 11:57 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I've read it too

Jeremy knows his stuff, and I think he’s spot on about the Camby deal…

BUT – that’s all in the context of where the Nuggets were going into summer 2008. They had to do something, and this is what they did. It’s the best thing they could do, but it ain’t good. Don’t forget that a big part of Jeremy’s equation is the trade exception, which they have a year to use. There’s basically no way they’re using it this season because of the luxury tax. So even Jeremy has more or less written off 08-09 – at least that’s my take.

So while I agree that Jeremy likes the Camby deal, if you’re implying that Jeremy likes where the Nuggets are right now, I’d beg to differ. He’s trying to make the most of a bad situation, and things Frankenstein or Walkenberg or whatever the GMs name is made the right move with Camby. But it remains to be seen what, if anything, they get with the trade exception. Jeremy will be one unhappy blogger if they let that expire, which frankly is what I expect to happen.

The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!

by ClipperSteve on Jul 22, 2008 1:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

But what about the discounting of Camby's D?

I find myself guilty of doing the same think to FElton. It is like all of a sudden the rose colored glasses are off and I can see his flaws. Perhaps this is what is going on here with his article.

But it would be a stretch to now start calling Camby “overrated”.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Jul 22, 2008 2:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sour grapes

As Aesop’s fox said, those grapes were probably sour anyway.

BUT, as I’ve gone to great lengths to elucidate in the past, defense is a very hard thing to measure. And I’m far from convinced that Camby is a great all around defensive player. He is what he is – the best shot blocker in the league. And that’s a very good thing for a team’s overall defense. But Jeremy has to spin things for his community, just as I have to for mine.

By the way, go back and look at how Jeremy answered my questions during a Q&A in late February. He knew then that Camby was the one that was likely to be moved. He’s a realist.

The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!

by ClipperSteve on Jul 22, 2008 2:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

If you can't see the flaws of your own players

You won’t be very good towards lending a unbiased analysis. (You’re quite adept at that. I’ve read several previews you’ve done with other blogs. You synopize, as many SBN guys do actually, very very well.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 22, 2008 2:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You are correct

Which is why you’re more or less a blogger genius. (My opinion though.) I more or less pointed out Jeremy’s musing’s for your Clipper fan faithful who weren’t aware of what someone on the other side thought. (First thing I did was read your take and Jeremy’s. Interesting on both ends. I still find Camby to the Clippers fascinating.)

I posted this on Jeremy’s blog, but I”ll post it here to your, and hopefully everyone elses benefit. One thing about luxury tax is that it’s calculated for the salaries at the END of the season. So if Denver wanted to use that trade exception around, say, draft time it won’t count toward’s their luxury tax bill for 08-09. That’s something to keep in mind when saying the Nuggets won’t use the exception because of luxury tax concerns.. Also, I think it’s a matter of what day the trade exception expires. (Golden State let their Jason Richardson trade exception expire, but that was the point too. They were trying to get away from luxury tax and did that. They couldn’t use the exception no matter how much they may have wanted.)

Either way your synopsis of the Nuggets predicament is spot on, and I think it’s also a bit about the Nuggets had to re-think their total circumstances anyway. But, I still think Camby was an interesting move that the Clippers did considering.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 22, 2008 2:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Trade exception

They won’t use it during the 08-09 season, for the tax reasons you point out. June of 09, prior to the draft, is the likely time, I agree. I’m just not sure that Kronke has the stomach for getting back into the salary stratosphere in small market Denver. And who knows what they’ll do with Iverson?

The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!

by ClipperSteve on Jul 22, 2008 3:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess everything is small market when you're in LA

But Denver is a small market? They got 4 teams in the 4 “major” sports. I’m sorry, I just don’t quite agree with that. I live in Seattle. Is it a small market too? Your point about Kroenke is well heeded, and those who aren’t familiar with him should remember that this guy is like Donald Sterling in a sense. Kroenke is one of the worst owners in the NBA who spends money and gets mad when it doesn’t go his way immediately.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 22, 2008 3:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh...

And thanks for that whole ‘genius’ thing.

The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!

by ClipperSteve on Jul 22, 2008 3:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

They made the mistake

I think you might be able to say that the made the error with Nene, then compounded it with Martin, and then compounded it with Iverson. Iverson might have worked out better if they had just had Camby and Melo, but that’s not what they had, so when they made the Iverson deal they were just digging their hole deeper, bad decision on top of bad decision. It’s an interesting example and lesson—it turns out that they haven’t done a very good job of surrounding a big young talent like Melo with very good players. He hasn’t been able to carry the load all by himself and even with vets like Camby and then Iverson, they couldn’t get it done. But I think it goes back to gambling on big men who weren’t worth it. Could have happened to the Clips with Kaman, but it seems like it turned around at the last minute.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 20, 2008 10:44 PM PDT   0 recs

The Martin Contract

I should look through my email for what I said at the time. He signed that deal before I had a blog, but I have friend’s in Denver and I wrote a LOT about it. The amazing thing, as the story goes, is that he was all set to sign a 6 year deal with the Nugs (it was the prior CBA, and the max for switching teams was 6, 7 for staying with the current club). At the last minute, they changed it to a S&T, 7 years, and the Nuggets gave up three first round picks. As far as I know, the Nuggets only motivation for doing this as a S&T was to get that 7th year, which of course is a disaster now. There must have been something else, but certainly NJ had no intention of signing the guy for a 6 year max deal. It is one of the worst contracts of all time.

Nene’s deal was ill-advised primarily because of the injuries. You could say, ‘tough break, who knew?’ except for the fact that he had been frequently injured during his rookie deal. So maybe they didn’t know, but they had an inkling. Add in the fact that they were pretty much bidding against themselves when they gave him $60M, and well, it wasn’t smart. Especially since they already had Martin signed at the max, and well, they play the same position.

It does make you appreciate MDsr’s “We don’t have any bad contracts” mantra. Nobody loves the Mobley and Thomas contracts at this point, but they are garden-variety NBA contracts compared to these Titanics.

The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!

by ClipperSteve on Jul 21, 2008 9:38 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

A 7 Year Contract

Wow, that is an all-time awful contract! I hadn’t realized Martin’s contract ran that long. He’s been overpaid and injured for so long, I thought he’d be off the books sooner. That does darken the picture assuming they don’t use the trade exception. They better hope for a Nene 2.0, but that’s asking a lot. At least AI running with Melo was fun to watch even if it wasn’t enough to win in the playoffs.

by ClipCat on Jul 21, 2008 10:32 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nugs are a mess...

Nene has cancer… I don’t think that qualifies as an injury… yeah, he gets injured a lot as well, but we can’t assume it follows that if a guy is injury prone, he’s also prone to cancer. Not in my world, anyway.
And Kenyon Martin was a huge mistake, huge, huge, huge, as was, I guess, Iverson… but that one was a little easier to understand… they took a risk, won fifty, but nothing but goose eggs in the playoffs. It didn’t work, that’s all.
But the Nuggets biggest mistake, in my opinion, is banking absolutely everything on Carmelo Anthony. A good player who plays lousy a lot. When has he ever played well against the Clips? The Brand/Cassel team destroyed him in the playoffs. A crappy defender who vanishes in critical situations, then whines. His rep is better than his reality. All that stuff about- who’s gonna be better LeBron or Carmelo went to his head.
I don’t envy Denver. I hate the way they’ve structured that team, top to bottom. Actually, I don’t hate them. I love them. In the scary scary west, they’re not scary. They’re the least scary “good” team the Clips have to play.
And the best move they can make is to give away Marcus Camby?

by swamigusto on Jul 21, 2008 6:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Clips Nation!

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Kaman 3.0?
Small
New Dunleavy Interview
Small
Which free agent should we aim for on the summer of 2009?
Small
ESPN Western Conf. Predictions
Small
Practice Facility
Small
Art Thompson and Shaun
Small
Monta Ellis out 3-4 months w/ ankle injury
Small
Latest on Clippers' Chances
101_0904_small
RIP Duckworth
Small
USA Defeats Spain, Wins Gold

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini


Site Meter