If we get Azibuke...
by citizen bob on Jul 20, 2008 10:14 PM PDT
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PrintHi all – I have been watching for a while and decided to make my first post.
Should the Warrior decline to match on Azebuki (which is likely considering the just signed Louis Williams to an offer sheet and still are yet to sign Ellis or Beidrins) I think the Clippers should seriously consider a trade with the Knicks for David Lee and Jerred Jefferies in exchange for Tim Thomas and Josh Powell (if needed). The Knicks are so desperate to get rid of Jefferies, they may even throw in a protected pick. I know many of the readers here hate Jefferies bloated contract, but we need to keep in mind that this guy is 6-11 and can play SF – just not as a starter (not yet at least). I see only pro’s for this deal that I will list below:
1. Tim Thomas is lazy on defense and immediately becomes the weakest link in the defensive chain. He cannot match up with any SF in the league and hurts the team 99% of the time he is on the court. Jefferies will be very versatile if allowed to play reasonable minutes in a team offense as opposed to the Knicks everybody for themselves offense. He will be a vast improvement over Thomas and will be a solid backup for Thornton. Plus did I mention he is 6-11 and can dribble as a point forward?
2. Powell is solid but no comparison for David Lee (who is the real reason for this trade). Along with Fazekas and Jordan as PF/C backups, Lee will be able to log reasonable minutes and cover for either Kaman or Camby when injured. I don’t need to really discuss the reasons we need Lee, as this has been covered plenty in past posts in this forum.
3. Jefferies contract is bloated but so is the contract we gave Tim Thomas. We do lose $7M off our cap in 2010 but we still have $20M from Mobley and Camby to shop with. Let’s go for Nowitski or Bosh with this cash.
Azibuke is the catalyst for this deal. I would only do it if he joins. The truth is that GSW fans love this kid – probably because he is really good. He has a quick and solid three point shot and I believe he should play starting SG with Mobley off the bench. I would play Gordon as the backup PG because he is quick and strong. If we can teach him to be a PG (and he believes he can do it) then this would allow him to become elite instead of just another undersized SG. Let Baron teach him and watch him grow. He is a real talent and we need to nurture this. If he sucks this year, we still have Brevan.
That leaves the team as follows:
PG = Davis, Gordon, Knight
SG = Azibuke, Mobely, Taylor
SF = Thornton, Jefferies, Williams
PF = Kaman, Fazekas, Powell (maybe)
C = Camby, Jordan
This is a pretty good team – especially on the defensive end. Baron will be the team leader and primary scorer with Camby his deputy. We will have new veteran leadership and established go-to guys. Defense is the key to a running game and Davis is the master of this style. He likes Azibuke and that is why I would promote him to starter. Mobley off the bench will also help us be productive and controlled when starters rest. Along with Gordon, Jordan, Jefferies and Fazekas, we now have a pretty deep bench. Either way, I see more optimism this year than any year since the Clips moved to LA. Let’s hope GSW plays along, then let’s make this trade and look to a bright future (do I dare to hope…?).
More Jerred Jefferies here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAf6GtUTCzc
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link?
I haven’t heard that the Warriors offered a deal to Williams. Do you have a link?
Also, Kelenna’s last name is spelled Azubuike.
Anyhow, if Kelenna is not re-signed by the Warriors it looks like the Clippers will have a pretty solid team.
talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish
I'd take the 2010 cap space.
Look, we don’t want to lose out on some of the big 2010 FAs because we don’t have enough cap space. Though this deal might make us a slightly better team in the short term, it gives us no chance at becoming much better just a mere two years down the road. We already have a pretty good team to go along with the prospect of signing a Stoudamire or a Bosh in 2010. We don’t want to lose out on getting one of those guys because of a lack of cap space. So I say we take this team as it is. Which is a pretty damn good team.
by WestsideBrandon on Jul 21, 2008 12:05 AM PDT reply actions
Welcome and thanks for posting
Before the Camby trade, I thought a trade for Lee and Jeffries was the best case scenario for filling the PF spot. I agree Jeffries could become a useful rotation player and has more skill than he has shown on the Knicks. This trade is a no-brainer in terms of getting a lot more talent back than we’d be giving up.
But with Camby and Kaman filling the paint, Lee and Jeffries represent much less of an upgrade since they would be role players off the bench. And this trade only makes sense if the Clips commit to signing Lee next off-season. The combination of Jeffries and Lee’s new contract would really eat into our 2010 cap space as WB said.
Before we make a move with so much impact on the future, I think the Clips need to see how the players they have fit together. TT should be better this year coming off the bench and a bit more motivated to play for a good team. And I’m looking forward to seeing how Fazekas, Jordan and hopefully Davis and Powell fare as backups. Hopefully at least one of them can make the jump this year to become a solid rotation player so that we don’t need to bring in Lee to fill that role.
I agree with...
The others that prefer to hold out more cap space for 2010. Lee is nice, but I believe his contract expires before 2010 and it would hit the cap harder to resign him and have Jeffries salary on the books. I really like the idea of us going into 2010 with 25m in cap space, because even if the studs don’t want to sign with us, the teams that they WILL sign with us will have to do something to compete with the other teams and that could be huge for us in terms of talent or draft picks. So as much as I like Lee, I don’t like him more then what will be around in 2010. As I said in a previous post, this is the beginning of a new direction for the Clips….RESPECTABILITY!!!!
"Lets get one thing straight, the only reason you are conscious right now is because I don't feel like carrying you." - Jack Bauer
"Consequences, Schmonsequences, as long as I'm rich." - Daffy Duck
My take
First of all, I haven’t seen anything beyond rumors about a Warriors offer sheet to Lou Williams. If you’ve got a link, please share it because this is very significant for the Buike situation.
I love David Lee and I hate Jared Jeffries. But that’s how it is – no one’s going to get Lee for nothing. Jeffries $7M in 2010 is only part of the cap space issue, as others have pointed out. If you want to keep Lee (the real reason to make this trade) that money comes out of you’re 2010 space as well. (Which of course is why the Knicks might consider moving the guy, since they can ill-afford to keep him.)
There’s also a question of fit with the Kaman/Camby Clippers. Tim Thomas doesn’t help a lot, but he can make threes, whereas Jeffries is a horrible shooter, and David Lee is probably worse. Trading for two non-shooters is not what I want to do right now.
I think the Clippers can afford to be patient with their 2010 trade pieces, Mobley and Thomas. With three new starters at least, let’s go slow, see how the team looks, and be opportunistic. Trade deadline, maybe something great happens. Or summer 2009. Or trade deadline 2009. Bottom line is, the Clippers don’t have to move those contracts to the NY’s and NJ’s of the world until and unless they’re blown away by an offer. And the worst thing that happens if they don’t make a move is that they themselves have oodles of cap space in 2010.
Thanks for the post and welcome to Clips Nation. I like the way you’re thinking – it definitely improves the team in the short term.
The Clippers! The (second) Best NBA Team in LA!
This is the only thing I could find so far
regarding Lou and the Dubs.
Lou Williams article
It basically says the Warriors are “intrigued” with Lou…so nothing definitive here, but it is interesting to note that if the W’s do have interest in Lou, then they will most likely NOT match the Kaz offer sheet, since he would take up the $$ they would need to go after Lou.
Warriors were trying to sign Nachbar
along with Atlanta as he stated in an interview for slovenian website.Finally he signed for Dinamo Moscow(6 mil./year).
Jeffries still kills the books for 2010
and Lee is only signed for one year anyway. So there is more money that has to be thrown at a player.
I think the Clippers are in a perfect situation right now. I would leave it be, and especially not deal with the Knicks.
F-Elton!
Agreed, no deals that affect 2010 cap space
If we have a nucleus of Baron, Gordon, Kaman, Thornton we’re going to look pretty attractive to the free agents in 2010. Some guys will be looking for a change of scenery, whether its Amare, Bosh, Wade, James, Melo etc. etc.
I personally hope we get Bosh in 2010 and its possible if JON doesn’t pan out.
Oh no! We suck again - Idiot from The Waterboy
http://ohnowesuckagain.ytmnd.com/
Gordon as PG
The original post is another good argument for trying to grab David Lee. It would be nice to get him, but I agree with all of the qualifiers in the comments. And the linchpin seems to have been the Camby trade, which has made the Clips even bigger players in 2010 than we thought they might be. As helpful as Lee might be, signing him would take money away, and we saw that Josh Powell can do a competent job and get some similar things done out on the court. Lee would be a backup anyway, so we’ll have to settle for a lesser backup and hope that it works out. And the combination of Thomas and Powell as backup PFs, one a shooter and the other a strong guy, should work well, and at least 1000% better than either or both of them as the starter.
The post never mentions Kaman and leaves him off the roster, which is probably just a minor oversight.
But toward the end of it is a somewhat new idea—that if the Clips sign Bukie he should be the starter, with Mobley coming off the bench, and Gordon should get some if not all of his minutes in the rotation as the backup PG to BD.
CS mentions that Dunleavy said somewhere that Bukie will be backing up Thornton. After such a solid 10 day run by Dunleavy after the FElton disaster, it wouldn’t be surprising for him to be digging in his heels prematurely about playing time for his wings. The possibilities could be analyzed quite thoroughly, although it’s premature to go all out until Bukie is on the roster.
One gets the sense, however, that Dunleavy is going to go with his guy Mobley more rather than less. He has to be considering Bukie as an SG, but it would be nice if he thought he might be capable of being the starter, if he can earn it, of course.
From the first summer league game it seemed clear that Gordon could play some minutes at PG, but it seems a mistake to restrict him to that role, which isn’t even a natural fit for him. It’s fairly obvious that the Clippers need his shooting badly. There will be some hesitation for a 19 year old rookie to play a larger role, but he’s obviously an impact player. Getting minutes at PG would help his overall game, I would think, making him more conscious of passing the ball and getting others involved, but it seems clear that the bulk of his minutes should come at SG. CS has pointed out that either Thornton or Mobley probably needs to be on the floor at all times, but the question becomes how much time they should both be on the floor together. My answer, right now, would be less than we might think, with Thornton getting the lion’s share of those minutes. It’s going to be an interesting equation, and the idea that Gordon might carve out some minutes at PG is an interesting one, but it will have limited utility, especially when the Clippers have Brevin Knight around.
Huh
You can tell from watching 2 SL games that Gordon can play PG? He’s never played the position, probably because his dribbling sucks to the utmost. Maybe he can bring the ball up once in a while but I would not want to count on him being a playmaker for the whole team. I find it curious that you lobby for EG as PG and Kaman as PF, but then say that Monta Ellis should stay as SG. In general, I don’t like taking a player away from his natural position unless he has the skill set and experience to make the adjustment (a la LBJ as point-forward).
Would anyone trade EG for Bayless right now?
Different things
“Play PG” and “play some minutes at backup PG” are two different things, apparently.
My impression from watching Gordon was that he is clearly capable of playing “some” PG. He was better in the first game, but he was penetrating, getting pretty much where he wanted to go on the floor, making some nice dishes. He pulled up for jumpers more in the second game, looking a little more Thornton-like. He wasn’t a natural PG-level dribbler and he might have some trouble withstanding pressure, but he wasn’t bad, and his strength makes up for a lot. I thought he compared favorably to Westbrook (who I’ve seen extensively), with the hugely important exception that Westbrook is a much more willing passer and seems to understand the game better. In making that comparison, there’s some truth to Thorpe’s oversimplified comment that Gordon needs to learn to play—he needs to develop a much better sense of other players on the floor and how they can coexist and thrive, especially if he’s going to play any PG at all.
I’m not lobbying for EG as a PG by any means. His main attraction at this point is his ability as a natural shooter, which the Clips need badly. I’m just trying to figure out the potential SG rotation, and Citizen Bob was suggesting, more or less, that EG play solely as the backup PG. I don’t agree with that. But I am curious about developing some of the flexibility of players.
On Monta Ellis, I’ve been responding to a similar all-or-nothing idea, that Ellis should go from being a 20 ppg SG to being the GSW starting PG and solely playing that position. The GSW interest in Louis Williams (which could negatively impact FElton’s future) suggests that they’re thinking the same thing. My concern was that GSW seemed awfully thin at PG, even with Ellis. But I was also thinking as a Clipper fan, trying to figure out reasons why they wouldn’t match the Clips offer to Bukie.
Bayless. I’ll wait on that one. I think you want to say it the other way around: would anyone trade Bayless for EG now? It’s a bummer that EG got hurt, giving us a small sample. It will be interesting to see how Bayless fits with Brandon Roy and the other Blazers, but he was certainly effective in summer league. In the end I’m not going to worry about these guys too much right now, because the Clips have got a guy I like infinitely better than anybody else in this conversation, Baron Davis. It was funny that, in the Portland game I watched, the announcers were wondering if Bayless should be getting other players involved. Then Nate McMillan came on and said no, Bayless needs to get shots and score and just keep on shooting, he’s doing everything exactly right at this point. It was a great little bit of coaching, sheer confidence building.
Kaman at PF. That was in hopes that the Clips would look at some centers, and hoping that they didn’t end up with a smaller PF. Now it’s all different with the reality of Marcus Camby. I’m not sure which player is more of a C and which is more of a PF—they’re kind of a complementary tossup. I’m really happy with the way it worked out.
by citizen zhiv on Jul 21, 2008 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I think I would lean towards keeping CK at center
and having Camby at PF. Camby faces up better. But it probably makes no difference who plays where.
Call them big 1 and big 2
F-Elton!
Fair response
Guys like Bayless and Westbrook went into the draft as combo guards with the potential to learn the PG role, to “play some minutes at backup PG”. Gordon, despite what he proclaims, just doesn’t have the handles and understanding of the position to play PG, even as a backup. That’s why he’s always been a SG, and now he is an undersized one.
I asked if anyone would trade EG for Bayless because this is a Clips blog. No one would trade Bayless for EG at this point. I don’t want to keep drinking the EG koolaid just because we drafted him.
BTW SL usually doesn’t mean much, so I’m not putting all that much weight into Bayless’ performances. I was one of the few touting him before the draft, and dating wayyyy back as well. I suspect he’s to me what Stuckey is to Jax. Except Thornton is a star as well but I just don’t expect Gordon to become one.
I REALLY hope I’m completely wrong.
Not clearly phrased--my bad
The new idea is molding Gordon all-out as a backup PG (which I don’t agree with). My bad—putting the idea that Bukie should start ahead of Mobley up front in the sentence/sequence makes it seem like that’s the new idea. It isn’t. You were right on top of that one, Jax.
by citizen zhiv on Jul 21, 2008 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Got it
I suspect that MDSr will bring Kaz of the bench b/c they will need an experienced energy guy who can handle the ball, at least somewhat ,to relieve Thornton and Cat. Having said that, he’s young and I would play him 30 mins plus per game.
What about Gordon
If Azu comes off the bench and still gets 30 mpg, how does Gordon fit in? Do you agree with CS that the Azu-Gordon combination at the wings doesn’t really work? I think I do. So that makes it a little bit tricky.
by citizen zhiv on Jul 21, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I do not agree with that - we will have to wait and see what happens with Gordon
He’s a 19 year old rookie. Don’t expect too much from him.
I wonder why they chose Gordon ahead of Bayless when Bayless seemed to be more of a PG, but in fairness I didn’t work out either player. Of course, I wouldn’t be wondering that if Bayless hadn’t blown up in summer league.
Bayless is the new Stuckey!
That didn’t take long.
I’m up for anything that will help us have some fun around here. And good discussions. The plot thickens. Baron Davis has a role in our drama as it’s about to unfold, as does Monta Ellis, since CBob brought him up and it all started with Bukie’s role in the rotation. Whole lotta combo guards in the mix all of a sudden.
So I’m guessing the theory on Gordon is that Dunleavy picked his guy again, to fill the hole he thought he had for a pure shooter. But he really should have picked Bayless, who could be the better player. Bayless does have some similarities to Ellis, actually, and I’m already getting confused…
I’m very happy with Gordon. I liked what I saw in summer league a lot, there just wasn’t very much of it. Bayless did great, but he had the ball in his hands all of the time, and he might not have such an easy time of it when the season starts. It also remains to be seen if he can make other players better.
And the thing is, the Clippers don’t need a PG. They have a guy who’s one of the best in the league. So that changes the equation. Is EG better at catch-and-shoot? I think he is. Is EG stronger and more athletic? Who would play the best defense against, say, Brandon Roy: Gordon, Ellis, or Bayless? Who would play the best defense against Baron Davis?
Now my head is spinning and I don’t even know what I’m talking about.
by citizen zhiv on Jul 21, 2008 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Laugh out loud
They worked them both out. Between the two, they obviously liked Gordon better. A lot of people weren’t sold on Bayless. I’m still not.
Summer league is tricky. If a guy plays great, it doesn’t necessarily mean much. But if a guy plays poorly, you can bet he is going to suck.
I think Gordon and Bayless both played well. So we’ll see. I guess management was planning to sign Udrih or trade for a PG rather than turn things over to Bayless. PG is probably the hardest position for a rookie, whereas a 2 guard can come right in and contribute.
F-Elton!
I don't think we should worry too much about EG....
THIS year, I personally think we should start Buike at SG with Mobley coming off the bench. Potential starting line-up of:
Baron
Buike
Al
Camby
Kaman
This line-up makes me VERY excited for this year, and hopefully MDsr doesn’t try and rush Gordon and give him back up minutes at both PG and SG to SEE where he is at. We can speculate all we want whether or not EG can play back-up minutes at PG, but until we see more I am not assuming he can or can’t do anything.
"Lets get one thing straight, the only reason you are conscious right now is because I don't feel like carrying you." - Jack Bauer
"Consequences, Schmonsequences, as long as I'm rich." - Daffy Duck
An argument for Mobley as the opening day starter
If the Clips get Bukie-which hasn’t happened yet-and even if he’s great, it still might make some sense to bring him off the bench in the beginning of the season.
Bukie started the first 12 games for GSW and played great at times but had some fall-off, they lost a whole bunch of games with him as the starter (that kept them out of the playoffs), and he was probably in over his head at times. There’s not much difference if Mobley is the original starter, and it might allow Bukie to build confidence over time. Mobley plays good defense, knows Dunleavy, and should be solid enough, as long as Dunleavy doesn’t overplay him and Dunleavy finds minutes for both Bukie and Gordon-which will cut down on Mobley’s playing time. So let him start, and then we’ll see. The problem is if Dunleavy gets stuck in a rut and overplays Mobley, and uses Bukie too much as Thornton’s backup-which could cause a Tim Thomas overload at PF, dominoes falling.
Dunleavy is definitely capable of messing up this rotation. It’s a challenging prospect. But I think his struggles as an opening day starter last year might be a good reason for Bukie to be the 6th man. And Mobley did come out of the gate really fast last year, so he knows how to prepare for opening day. Having Bukie and Gordon as backups to Mobley seems like a huge step forward from going to QRoss, which is one of the reasons why Mobley played hurt and stayed hurt last year. I really hope this Bukie deal goes through.
by citizen zhiv on Jul 21, 2008 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Who needs an argument?
Bukie might very well be better off the bench. He’ll still see 30 mins IMO.
Zhiv – focus in on MDSr’s offensive schemes for a while.
Ah.. but what you don't realize.....
Azubuike opened last season as a starter and had a 33pt/ 8rb game against the clipps and followed a few games later with a 27pt 11rb game against dallas which is good… but he was playing injured the whole season and it just kept getting worse and worse because he never took 2 weeks off the let it heal.
Kelenna got a bone bruise in his ankle in summer league that had not healed by the start of the season. He was playing(and well) but was putting all his weight on his right leg because of his left ankle. He developed tendonitis in his right knee. The big dallas game was really the last time anyone saw a healthy Azubuike. He would have been fine if he sat out 2 weeks and let the right knee heal but he couldn’t for fear of falling out of crazy nellie’s rotation and Nellie wouldn’t sit him out because even though they were having to pump him full of liquid tylenol just to play, he was still better than both Barnes and Pietrus which were the alternatives. He averaged 8.5 pts / 4rbs in 20 minutes/game for 81 games while playing really injured… Imagine what he will do while healthy in 35 mins/game as a starter alongside Baron(who is probably the one who filled the clips in that Kelenna’s numbers were achived while playing injured all season).
by AzubuikeFan on Jul 22, 2008 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
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