Turnover Rate
A few citizens have asked the question - has there ever been an NBA team with as many roster changes from one season to the next as it appears will happen with the Clippers this season? Well, the short answer is yes, and probably there have been a lot.
With the return of Paul Davis, the Clippers, barring further changes, which is of course a distinct possibility given what has transpired so far, will begin the 2008-2009 season with five returning players on a 15 man roster: Chris Kaman, Cat Mobley, Tim Thomas, Al Thornton and Davis. That's a massive changeover, to be certain.
However, armed with nothing more than my vast reserve of useless NBA knowledge (and basketball-reference.com, of course), I started looking at teams that were likely candidates for similar or greater roster turnover. (Someone smarter than me, with access to the raw data, could no doubt query a database and come up with all instance of 5 or fewer returning in consecutive seasons - if you are that person, have fun. I am not that person. But I'm pretty sure at this point that there would be a lot of examples.)
I started with the most obvious possibility, the 98-99 Chicago Bulls. After winning their sixth title in eight seasons the previous season, Bulls management famously blew up the roster, parting ways from Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Coach Phil Jackson and seemingly everybody else. Even so, with all of that turnover from the top down, the Bulls still had seven returning players on the 98-99 roster: Toni Kukoc, Ron Harper, Bill Wennington, Randy Brown, Dickey Simpkins, Rusty LaRue and Keith Booth. So the Clippers win that battle.
Then I realized, it wouldn't be the high-profile teams with the most turnover. It would be the dreadfully bad teams. The teams with absolutely no reason to keep anybody on their roster. So my next stop was the worst team of the last 20 years - probably the worst team of all time - the 97-98 Denver Nuggets. I had the 'honor' of watching this team live once, and they were bad. Really, really bad. Monumentally bad. Historically bad. They didn't manage to break the all-time record for fewest wins of 9 held by the 72-73 Sixers, but not because they weren't really, really bad. In 72-73 there were only 17 NBA teams, no other team won fewer than 22 games, and only 3 failed to win at least 30 games. In 97-98, with 29 teams in the league, fully five teams other than the Nuggets won 20 games or fewer. It was quite the suck-fest. So although the Nuggets were clearly the worst of the worst, as the season ground towards the finish, the 5-58 Nuggets managed to win 6 of their final 19 games against almost equally dismal competition to avoid their rightful place in the record books.
At any rate, I wondered how much turnover there was on such an awful team. Sure enough, from the 96-97 Nuggets team to the 97-98 team, there are only four names in common - LaPhonso Ellis, Bryant Stith, Anthony Goldwire and George Zidek (there's a name for Citizen Zhiv). Consider also that Goldwire and Zidek were each acquired in a February 97 trade - so Ellis and Stith were the only two holdovers on the team from opening day 1996 to opening day 1997. Wow. And for good measure, the 98-99 Nuggets team only had five players from the prior team - Stith, Danny Fortson, Eric Williams, Corey Alexander and Eric Washington. In two seasons, Bryant Stith was the only player who remained.
So I'm guessing that massive turnover of the 4 to 5 returning players variety is not all that uncommon, particularly in really bad teams. We just tend to forget about it because the teams themselves are forgettable.
Except that Nuggets team. They were unforgettably bad.
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I would guess the Magic the summer they got Tmac and Grant Hill
I remember that team wasn’t bad as Doc Rivers had them over performing all year (guys like Bo Outlaw etc.). But they pretty much used all their salary cap space to sign the two then-superstars.
Oh no! We suck again - Idiot from The Waterboy
http://ohnowesuckagain.ytmnd.com/
by ClipperChuck on Aug 19, 2008 12:16 PM PDT 0 recs
Love Zidek
the former UCLA Bruin center who I believe was part of the 95 championship team.
by Jax on Aug 19, 2008 12:33 PM PDT 0 recs
Yes he was....
that whole starting 5 eventually played in the NBA too….Tyus Edney, Charles and Ed O’Bannon, Zidek and J.R Henderson (who has since changed his name and plays in Japan)…with Cameron Dollar and Tobey Bailey coming off the bench….man…that was a good team.
by Clip Show on
Aug 19, 2008 1:07 PM PDT
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Tyus is a star in Italy and has been for years, as I understand it
Cameron is now an assistant at Washington under then-Bruin assistant Lorenzo Romar.
by Jax on
Aug 19, 2008 1:44 PM PDT
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I believe both JR (Sakuragi ?) and Charles are in Japan
playing and Ed is a used car salesman in Vegas, while Zidek has also retired in his home country of the Czech Republic. Toby Bailey is currently playing in Spain. It’s interesting to note that all 5 starters from that championship team eventually played in Europe sometime during their career. And that concludes our update on the 1995 UCLA bruins…:D
by Clip Show on
Aug 19, 2008 2:01 PM PDT
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Best thing about Zidek
Was the way that he improved during his four years at UCLA. He was big and slow when he got there, and big and slow when he left, but he clearly worked very hard and developed a lot of strength and extremely serviceable offensive skills. He was able to hit the baseline 15 footer, but the best thing was his old school hook shot, which was a thing of beauty.
Prompts another thought. Reflecting on Zidek reminds me of the unfortunate senior season of Lorenzo Mata-Real. Howland is the real deal and he gets to do whatever he wants to, but he had some tough decisions this year, especially after Collison was injured and Westbrook blew up. Teams were slowing down the Bruins and Kevin Love with zone defenses and BH kept playing Josh Shipp. The guy who lost out was the humble senior, LMR, who ended up with limited spot duty backing up Kevin Love. Love had the skills to get more touches and shots on the perimeter, but BH never committed to moving Love to PF and playing him at the same time as LMR. LMR never got his senior mojo going, despite the fact that he was primed for a Zidek-like season.
As much fun and solid as seniors Edney, Zidek and the others were, Ed O’Bannon was the guy who really made it all go, which was great to see after his early knee problems, and with his later struggles as a pro, but at least he had a great run and won a championship.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 19, 2008 2:27 PM PDT 0 recs
IMO the best thing about Zidek
while at UCLA was his intelligence. We had season seats during the championship season, down on the floor, and he really held that team together. Yes, Ed was great, but Zidek, believe it or not, was the glue. You could see him ordering everyone around during the games. if you were there.
by Jax on
Aug 19, 2008 9:21 PM PDT
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Completely agree
Good point. Part of what I was trying to say was that Zidek went to a much higher level as a senior, but I think you’re exactly right. He became a leader. And Edney also had a really high bball IQ and excellent college PG skills. All that being said, Ed was truly great.
And yes, I was there. Was there as a kid for Alcindor too, and then Walton. My dad has had the same seats since Pauley opened. The attrition of the old guard in our section has been relentless, and my dad is the senior statesman now I think.
by citizen zhiv on
Aug 20, 2008 11:44 AM PDT
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Funny
My dad also had seats since Pauley opened – he was part of the Welton Beckett crowd that designed and built Pauley. HR Haldeman used to sit right in front of us, right in the middle, second level. My first memories of Bruin games was Walton in ‘73. The old guard left in large part because UCLA started requiring thousands of dollars in extra payments to maintain the seats they were promised for life. C’est la vie, I suppose.
by Jax on
Aug 20, 2008 11:56 AM PDT
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The Old Guard at Pauley
My dad gave up his football tickets because they were asking him for a lot of extra money.
But I think with Pauley that mostly the old guard just started dying off, and the basketball product was also subpar for a long time too. My dad must have been 35 or 37 when he gave Haldeman a couple of thousand dollars, but most of the donors with their name on the wall outside were probably older, and they must be gone now. There’s a lot more money in the hands of UCLA alumni now, and with Howland around it should be interesting to see how they manage upgrading Pauley. It was in quite a time warp for awhile there, but having great teams has made everything a lot better.
Baron Davis!
by citizen zhiv on
Aug 20, 2008 2:50 PM PDT
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That came out wrong - never meant to imply that you weren't there or
that you didn’t understand that. There was an inadvertent addition of a period included in the last sentence.
by Jax on
Aug 20, 2008 11:57 AM PDT
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Steve
what I think is remarkable is the roster turnover from 2 or 3 years ago. I think it is just Kaman and Mobley from the playoff run, and Thomas and Paul Davis from the year before that.
Either way, it is a dramatic makeover, and a whole new team.
F-Elton!
by mikey p on Aug 20, 2008 8:29 AM PDT 0 recs
Finally
A comment about something in my post other than George Zidek and Bruins hoops. Bruins Nation might interest some of you. This is Clips Nation.
Yes, this is not the team that outplayed the Suns in the WC semis. It’s sad that we never got to see that team again, really.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by ClipperSteve on
Aug 20, 2008 12:43 PM PDT
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No we didn't
they were not really that same team the next year, especially without a healthy Cassell.
F-Elton!
by mikey p on
Aug 20, 2008 2:01 PM PDT
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You're the one who brought up Zidek
And you even called me out when doing it, so what did you expect?
BruinsNation is a fine site, but it’s all football right now (for good reason), and it’s more like a freeway of blogs, while ClipsNation is more of a quaint Main Street through a quiet unspoiled town in its low season.
Not to mention the fact that Jax and I were having a civil conversation, which is rare enough.
by citizen zhiv on
Aug 20, 2008 2:42 PM PDT
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Clearly CS is a Trojan
Still bitter about the OJ Mayo fiasco
Come on Zhiv, we’re generally civil.
by Jax on
Aug 20, 2008 3:00 PM PDT
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You're right
Yes, we are civil. I was just trying to score a couple of extra points with CS and distinguish the discussion from a standard Jax/John R. shouting match.
Unless I’m mistaken, CS is a Wave, not a Trojan.
by citizen zhiv on
Aug 20, 2008 3:04 PM PDT
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Wave indeed...
I have the standard small conference dislike for all things Pac-10 – though Big-10, Big East, etc are even more vile.
Unfortunately, the Waves are such a train wreck the last couple of seasons there’s just no point in bringing them up.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by ClipperSteve on
Aug 21, 2008 1:58 PM PDT
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yes, that bruin talk was starting to be too much...
now, let talk Titan baseball!
by Lawler's Law on
Aug 20, 2008 3:01 PM PDT
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Lets Talk Gaucho Basketball
Brian Shaw was the reason the Lakers won 3 championships in a row. They haven’t won one since he hung up the sneaks. OLE OLE OLE OLE GAUCHO GAUCHOOooooo
Oh no! We suck again - Idiot from The Waterboy
http://ohnowesuckagain.ytmnd.com/
by ClipperChuck on Aug 20, 2008 7:53 PM PDT 0 recs
Zhiv can do Gaucho
1976-78. I’m a full-service University of California kind of guy. Grew up as a Woodenmaniac, stumbled through two years at SB, then did the heavy academic lifting at Berkeley from 78-86. Played a little ball at UCSB, but spent a lot more time on recreational activities. Jeff Perry, who was class of 78—he went to Hamilton at the same time as Warren Moon—was the reigning PG, very good, and for some reason I didn’t see him up in the front row when Garcia was playing at Campbell Hall. With all of that UC sustenance, you wouldn’t think that I would be flying back east on Sunday to take my daughter to a little NESSAC school, but that’s the way it goes.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 20, 2008 8:28 PM PDT 0 recs
We have something else in common
I too stumbled through SB for my first year in college 82-83, before transferring to UCLA.
by Jax on
Aug 20, 2008 10:06 PM PDT
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