Clips Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Around SBN: Headlines: BC Beats BU 4-3 in 58th Beanpot Championship

So, What IS Going on with Shaun Livingston?

What's going on with Livingston?  The short answer is, I don't have any idea.  No inside sources.  No scoop.  I have no idea how he is.  Hell, I don't even know where he is.  According to Art Thompson III, apparently promoted to Lakers 'blogger' at the OCR, he's been at Tim Grover's gym in Chicago for months, working out and now playing 5 on 5.  But that would seem to contradict Citizen clipschamps report that he was playing at Pauley a couple weeks ago. (Marty Burns of SI is another one who says that Livingston has been in Chicago 'for the past month'.)

Here's what we think we know. 

  • According to the LA Times, the Clippers offered Shaun a one year minimum contract, which he turned down. 
  • He hasn't signed with anyone yet.
  • The Nuggets and the Suns are two teams who have purportedly shown interest in the past, but there has been precious little about him in about a month.
  • Which doesn't necessarily mean much.  If you were Shaun Livingston or his agent, you'd definitely be betting and hoping on a better offer later in the summer.  After all, it was only last month that he started playing one-on-one, and only recently that he's been playing five-on-five.  The more proof he can offer that he's recovered (or at least on the road, with a decent map, maybe even a GPS), the better contract offer he's likely to command.  The downside of course is that teams will make other moves in the meantime, but Shaun has the advantage of playing point guard, and there just aren't enough of those to go around.  Given where Shaun appears to be in his rehab, every week counts, barring a major setback.

Now, let's try to get into Shaun's head a little.  Why didn't he sign with the Clippers?  After all, this is the team that drafted him, and he's been through 18 months of rehab with the training staff.  Where is the loyalty?

The loyalty question is probably overstated.  Livingston was under contract to the Clippers when his knee imploded.  To say that the Clippers 'stood by him' through his rehab is really to misrepresent the situation.  The Clippers did nothing extraordinary - any team would have done as much or more.  What are they going to do?  Waive him?  They'd still have had to pay his guaranteed contract, so they'd be saving Jasen Powell and Richard Williams' time and one roster spot.  Big deal.  No team in the NBA would waive an injured lottery pick while there was any hope for a recovery.

Then there's the flip side.  Was Livingston insulted that the Clippers didn't make a qualifying offer and renounced his rights?  Give me a break.  It's a business, and Livingston and his agent know full well that the Clippers couldn't tie up $6M on damaged goods for next season.  So assume that, beyond simple inertia and familiarity, Livingston felt neither compelled to remain with the Clippers, nor anxious to get away.

He most likely is looking for three things:  money, security, and opportunity.  If the Clippers offered one year, that really only covers one of the three, and that at the minimum.  It remains to be seen if he'll get a better offer, but he can hope, and I for one would not be surprised if he does.  But the money and security issues are pretty straightforward - the more money, and the more years (a player option would be the best for him if he expects to make a full recovery) the better.

Opportunity is another question.  The Clippers just signed a free agent, all-star point guard to a five year contract.  (They also signed two veteran backups, but I think you have to assume that Livingston is not intimated by competing for a job with the likes of Jason Williams and/or Jason Hart and their one year contracts.)  Furthermore, if you're Livingston and you are realizing that your NBA future may be on the wing, the fact that the Clippers spent consecutive lottery picks on a two (Eric Gordon) and a three (Al Thornton) does not bode well for future opportunity.  Bottom line - a job with the Clippers figures to be as a versatile back up in the best case scenario.  That may turn out to be his ceiling, given the seriousness of the injury, but you can't blame him for looking for a better situation. 

I think you have to look at the unique NBA talent that is Shaun Livingston.  Obviously, he's hurt and may never be the same, but the fully healthy package offered a combination of size, quickness, length, handle and vision not often seen.  On the minus side, he can't shoot much, and he's yet to show a penchant for taking over games. 

Still, there is a profile of an NBA team that might be very interested in Livingston.  One characteristic might be a team with a decent solution at point guard this season, looking at a problem in the near future.  Maybe their starter is aging, or maybe he's coming up on free agency.  Such a team might be willing to take a flyer on an injured former top 5 pick (who's still only 22, I might add) as a possible future starter.  Livingston must be realistic enough to realize that he has basically no hope of starting anywhere this season - the next best thing would be a team that needs to identify a near future starter. 

Phoenix might fit this description.  Steve Nash is 34, and the Suns have a team option for next season.  His shelf life in Phoenix is 2 years at the most, and there is absolutely no one waiting in the wings.

Or Dallas.  Jason Kidd is 107 (or thereabouts), and his knees are even older.  The fact that Kidd can't shoot also means that Carlisle's Mavs could develop a particularly style of play, and in a perfect world plug a recovered Livingston in for the aging Kidd and not miss a beat.

The Lakers are another team that kind of fits the profile.  Current starter Derek Fisher is 34 like Nash.  The difference is that the Lakers do have Jordan Farmar, so at best Livingston would be going into a situation where he was starting out behind a 21 year old on the depth chart.  That hardly sounds like a great opportunity.  Furthermore, as many people pointed out in the comments attached to the recent Livingston FanPost, Shaun's lack of outside shooting is not a good match for the triangle or for anyone sharing the court with Kobe Bryant.

The other type of team that might be interested in Livingston (and in fact, the one that makes the most sense to my mind) is any team making do with a combo guard at the point.  There are more of these than you might think.  There is a dearth of true point guards in the NBA.  Furthermore, there are a number of sublimely talented basketball players, who just happen to be under 6'3".  These guys, sometimes called scoring points, sometimes called tweeners, have great scoring ability, but tend to be too small to defend NBA wings.  If they end up playing the point, it's not their natural position on offense, and if they end up playing the wing, they struggle on defense.  Ideally, they could play on the wing on offense and the point on defense. 

Voila, in Shaun Livingston you have the yin to that yang.  He's a true point guard, fully capable of running the offense, but also a big and very effective wing defender. 

Monta Ellis.  Gilbert Arenas.  Allen Iverson.  These are all shooting guards, scorers, who have played (or will play) much of their careers essentially out of position at the point.  Golden State in particularly should take a long look at Livingston.  It's a long shot to be sure, but imagine the backcourt of Ellis and Livingston in a few years if Shaun is able to recover.  (Washington makes less sense, and Denver almost none.  The Nuggets desperately need a point guard, but by trading Marcus Camby for nothing they seemed to indicate that Iverson will not be back next season.  Livingston is too far away from contributing, and Iverson is too close to the door, for this to make much sense for the Nuggets.)  Then there's free agent Ben Gordon.  Any team interested in taking a chance on Gordon should consider bringing in Livingston and starting them together in the future.

Today is August 21.  It's a little over five weeks until the opening of NBA training camps on September 30th.  I would expect Livingston to sign somewhere before then - teams will want to take him through a full camp, I would think.  I still hold out some hope that he could be a Clipper, but it depends almost entirely on what other teams are willing to offer him.  If he gets what he thinks is a better offer, good for him.  If not, the Clippers can make room on the roster by waiving second round pick Mike Taylor, whose contract is not guaranteed until the season starts.  The Clippers are the one and only team who can have Shaun's Bird rights for next season, so all else being equal (i.e. if he only gets one year minimum offers, and his opportunities are not significantly better) one would think he'd choose to sign with the Clippers in that scenario. 

But if he signs with the Lakers and eventually becomes an All Star, then just put a bullet in my temple.

0 recs  |  Comment 36 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

More from Clips Nation

The End Game for Livingston

Sep 2008 by Steve Perrin - 15 comments

Comments

Display:

As I recall

Livi said in an interview some weeks ago that he didn’t the Clippers were a good fit. He didn’t elaborate.

by Jax on Aug 21, 2008 2:24 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

He did

And I tend to agree. But he may have to adjust his expectations.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Aug 21, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As for the question of why he decided to leave

perhaps he feels that his development was slowed by the tight reins kept on him by a micro-managing head coach. Shaun’s creativity was never unleashed because limits were kept on the offense that could be run when he was on the floor.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Aug 21, 2008 2:43 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Don't know if you're being snarkey, but

that’s what I read into his comments (no surprise there, I suppose). I don’t know what to make of the guy at this point. He no longer (apparently) can play PG, he ins’t really a shooter. He’s obviously injury-prone. Seems like another D. Miles at this point. Why waste a roster spot on him.

by Jax on Aug 21, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was being dead serious

Livingston and MDSr. are a bad fit. And were I Shaun, I would look at my slow progress compared to that of other young PG’s around the league and feel that I had wasted four years.

So change is good in this case for Shaun.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Aug 21, 2008 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not to defend MDsr..

but SL didn’t help matters much by getting hurt all the time…a hurt back one season, dislocated knee cap the next…and then the catastrophic knee injury….dude has NEVER been healthy for a full season is all I am saying.

by Clip Show on Aug 21, 2008 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm no scout, but

it never seemed to me that Livi was anywhere near strong enough for the NBA

by Jax on Aug 21, 2008 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Too frail

I think that he will always have knee problems just because of his long legs and leaping ability.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Aug 21, 2008 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

not to change the subject...

but i kinda feel that way about al thronton too… I remember watching him drive down the lane last year and after watvhing shauns injury it made me think he’s one damp spot on the floor away from sitting next to shaun… I really REALLY hope that never ever happens…

by cantthinkofagoodname on Aug 22, 2008 1:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The only reason I don't worry about Al

is that he has a mans body, whereas Shaun had a boys body.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Aug 22, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah but he does need to get stronger, particularly his legs

Reggie Miller (of all people) pointed that out during a telecast last year, talking about how he’s got to develop a post up game and become a good rebounder and he can’t do that without much stronger legs.

by Jax on Aug 22, 2008 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How would Reggie know?

Al’s legs look pretty strong to me. He had the highest vertical of his draft class.

I think his rebounding issue had something to do with playing a lot of PF last year.

But hey, who couldn’t use stronger legs?

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Aug 22, 2008 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Strength not in terms of jumping abiity

But in terms of being able to post up and work inside against bigger guys. Reggie played professional basketball for 16 years. Granted, he was an SG.

by Jax on Aug 22, 2008 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Totally agree

that is what really slowed him down. But when he was healthy, he was boxed in by a walk it up/post it up offense that didn’t showcase his skills

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Aug 21, 2008 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought...

the Clippers no longer hold his Bird right’s once they renounced his rights? Is this true?

by Clip Show on Aug 21, 2008 3:18 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

As I understand it...

If they were to sign him, he’d still be in their employ five consecutive seasons, which is enough in and of itself to ensure the Bird rights. The renouncing meant they didn’t have those rights THIS season – but they would be re-instated if he were to play next season for the Clippers. This is not true of any other team, since part of the clause is ‘3 consecutive years of service with the same team.’

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Aug 21, 2008 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks...

I thought once they no longer held his Bird rights, they were gone forever. Good to know.

by Clip Show on Aug 21, 2008 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think he's done

Shaun maximizes his value by resigning with the Clips & proving he can play, making him eligible for Bird right or a higher payday through a sign&trade. I believe the fact that he’s trying get more money up front means that both he & his agent know he’s done (like DM) and need to get the money before anyone sees him play.

by Zer0 on Aug 22, 2008 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Intresting

If you look at wikipedia link it shows Livingston signing with the Lakers Today

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaun_Livingston

by clipperjim on Aug 21, 2008 4:04 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It's already been corrected...

The problem with Wikipedia. But I still love it.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Aug 21, 2008 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Future Laker All-Star

We should probably just assume that this is going to happen, and sooner rather than later. In trying to follow the Clippers and predict (and survive) the peculiarly nasty twists of fate, a good rule of thumb is that the worst case scenario can be bleaker in some strange way that we haven’t thought of yet. Does Shaun Livingston possess the cosmic strength to turn into the truly amazing player that we were waiting to blossom a couple of years ago? Then the best way for it to happen is obviously that he stumbles quietly over to the Lakers for little money and no expectations, and emerges as a perfect fit in their evolving championship dynasty. It wasn’t enough for Kobe to lie about signing with the Clips, for Bynum to emerge ahead of schedule and better than expected, for Fisher to return for compelling personal reasons, for Bynum’s injury to turn into the gift of Gasol. The voracious Laker soul remains unsatisfied. It wasn’t clear until now how signing Baron Davis was all part of cosmic plan to create a Laker dynasty. It wasn’t about losing FElton Brand, which was just collateral Clipper damage. It was about moving Livingston over to the Lakers for the minimum. AT3 figured it out, with his highly refined sense of Laker/Clipper irony. Now it’s just a matter of time.

by citizen zhiv on Aug 21, 2008 4:34 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

lol

But if he signs with the Lakers and eventually becomes an All Star, then just put a bullet in my temple.

by wily6 on Aug 21, 2008 6:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The signs were clear to Livingston

From the looks of things, the acquisition of Davis, Taylor, and Hart all within a month’s time, probably sent a strong mssg to Shaun his time was over in LA. It would be incredibly ironic if he is successful with the Lakers, but then again, his faulty shooting should send red flags to the Laker organisation, as long as Phil Jackson (the triangle offense) is around.

MDSr wasn’t always micromanaging Shaun…in his rookie year backing up Marko, he had several 10 assist games, when the Clips had a more open style. Then Cassell came to town, and that open style ended.

We’ll see what the future holds for Shaun. Hope it won’t be in LA.

I love LAC.

by oasisman on Aug 21, 2008 7:35 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Message

Well, let’s be clear. Jason Williams wasn’t signed until Shaun declined an offer. As for Hart, I can’t really explain that one, but it was a swap after all, and Hart only came to the Clippers the first time after Shaun was hurt. Taylor’s a second round pick – a dime a dozen. Davis is the one that matters. If Shaun wants to be a backup point when he’s healthy, the job is his. But if he plans to start, he needs another team.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Aug 21, 2008 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

Shaun made his feelings known about the Clippers right around the time Baron signed. It could have been before that.

by Jax on Aug 22, 2008 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How much is he actually worth?

Lets face it – if Shaun is completely healthy he is worth $10M+ per year. If he wants security, why can’t we offer him more than the minimum? Can’t we still sign SL for more using his bird rights that we already own? He is a fan favorite and a long term project I personally want to see through till the end. If we offered him a 3 year $6M contract, he would probably sign. Add in two team options for a song and he is ours for the long haul. If he craps out, we waive him and eat a few million. He is only 22 and likely to peak at 25. I love the fact that although he could be a complete washout, but he just may be the next Jason Kidd. Isn’t that worth a $6M gamble?

by citizen bob on Aug 22, 2008 12:56 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Not an option...

The Clippers renounced his Bird rights this season in order to sign Baron Davis. The qualifying offer of $5.8M would have precluded any Davis contract, and the cap hold was even higher. So they can’t go over the cap to sign him. Since they’re at the cap now, they only have the NBA minimum to offer. The only sweetener they can offer is length of the deal, but that doesn’t help much since Shaun would probably be hoping to prove himself worth more after the first season and re-sign for more. So a one year min deal, with a player option for another year, is basically as much as the Clippers can offer.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Aug 22, 2008 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

From Today's Hoopsworld

“Livingston Update: Shaun Livingston is still looking for a deal. Informed sources say that Livingston may not get a guaranteed deal this year, and that’s why he is still unsigned. Several teams have expressed interest in Shaun, and it appears he has some offers, just nothing that insures he’ll get a fair chance to play. Livingston has been playing full contact, full court basketball in Chicago under the guidance of NBA trainer Tim Grover, and is said to be getting his explosiveness and swagger back. Supposedly Shaun is dunking the ball and attacking the basket against NBA guys in Chicago. In all fairness, those who have seen him say he’s not back to a 100, but is closer to 75 to 80%. A league source explained that in their opinion, Livingston needs to land with a team that will give him a chance to prove he’s able to play again, and not bury him on the bench. With NBA training camp set to open in less than 38 days it’s not out of the question Shaun gets a deal – the question is will that deal be guaranteed and will Shaun get a chance to play himself back into the NBA elite. Someone could get themselves a very nice player if they take the risk.”

IMHO, this squares with the portion of CS’ article which focuses on opportunity. Liv wants to play – in fact. he wants to start. It may not be realistic, but who can blame him? I’m guessing he has envisioned starting in the NBA his entire life, and that’s highly unlikely to happen on the Clips anymore.

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Aug 22, 2008 12:19 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Guaranteed

It’s worth noting that the minimum deal the Clips offered him was at least guaranteed.

Also, the careful observations of Clipschamps at UCLA keep paying dividends. If we just read Hoopsworld and saw that he’s playing “full contact, full court” and “getting his explosiveness and swagger back,” we’d be scratching our heads about why people are saying that he’s “closer to 75 to 80%.” The key is in the word “supposedly” that appears at the beginning of the sentence that he’s “dunking the ball and attacking the basket against NBA guys.” We know that he can get up and dunk—which is great news for his recovery—but the idea that he’s doing it in games with NBA guys and attacking the basket seems like a stretch. It’s good enough at this point for him to be getting up and down the floor and floating around and filling space. It’s also worth noting that we’re not hearing anything about his shot—no one is saying “Livingston was really able to work on his upper body strength, mechanics, and range during his rehab, and he’s burying 3 point shots with his feet set and his 15 ft jumper looks really good—he’s not exploding on it, but he may not need to against smaller PGs, and the big thing is that it’s going in the basket—a lot.” Haven’t heard that yet.

I’d be very happy at this point to hear about Liv signing with some other team—as long as it’s not the Lakers—so that we can focus on how exciting and great Baron Davis is going to be.

by citizen zhiv on Aug 22, 2008 12:39 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Looks like this post got on Yahoo's

Ball Don’t Lie daily 10-man rotation!…

by Lawler's Law on Aug 22, 2008 5:53 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

That makes the clean sweep...

Fanhouse, Ball Don’t Lie and True Hoop… That’s a first.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Aug 22, 2008 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No news for so long, and now he's everywhere...

Suddenly we’re hearing about Liv all the time. However, the info seems more than a little contradictory. And when AT3 says “A possible destination could be the Miami Heat, which had shakey point guard play last season and have not solidified that position yet this summer” it seems like pure speculation, not unlike my saying that Phoenix or Dallas (to apprentice for Nash or Kidd) makes sense. There’s no indication that Miami is interested. But if Shaun is looking for a big role this season, yes, the Heat are a complete train wreck at the point.

For Grover to say he’ll be ready “by the first day of training camp” is a huge statement. But what does ready mean? Ready to play 30 minutes a game? No one’s even hinted at that before. But Grover’s the best. You wonder if Shaun is asking himself why he wasn’t at Attack Athletics for the last 18 months, rather than putzing around with Jasen Powell.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Aug 22, 2008 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

hey hey, don’t forget about us Timberwolves.
Over at canishoopus.com we’ve been talking about how much we’d like Livingston. McHale has expressed interest in another combo 1-2-3, exactly what Livingston offers.
We can also afford bringing him along slowly since we’ve got enough players we can play 1-2 and 3.

It would involve buying out someone or Richard nog signing + we’d probably have to rid ourselves of Mccants or Foye. Maybe some kind of sign and trade: Livingston for Mccants? Would love a backcourt rotation with Livingston, Foye and Telfair. Throw in some Miller and Brewer/Carney at the 2 and you’re set.

Not sure about the mecanics on that kind of sign and trade.

Anyway, good read.

by Wim (Belgium) on Aug 23, 2008 12:21 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Clips Nation!
Start posting about the Clippers »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Warriors_game4_0268_kr_small
Clippers VS Utah Jazz
Small
kaman is an all-star! yay!
Camby2_small
Kaman chosen to replace Brand Roy in All-Star Game.
Small
You need a Superstar in the NBA
Small
and this is why I'm against a midseason coaching change...
Small
The Price of Freedom
Buzzerbeater_small
Yikes!-LAC vs SAS
Small
Isaih Thomas on a short list of coaches?
Small
Isiah Thomas GM/COACH?????
Small
Anyone but van Gundy..let's go Sammy!

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS


Managers

Clipsnation_small Steve Perrin