How fast or how slow?

by citizen zhiv on Aug 22, 2008 2:30 PM PDT

Another lively topic seems to be the pace that the Clippers will play at next year, and how can they be most successful. Lots of ways to go on this one.

Baron Davis is going to lead the team and set the pace. He just finished a successful run playing for Don Nelson. GSW played in a frenzy at times and jacked up 3s with reckless abandon. Unless I'm wrong, they were similar in a lot of ways to the breakneck pace of D'Antoni's Phoenix teams, which are now a thing of the past apparently. One big difference in the teams is that Phoenix had rebounders and shot-blockers in Stoudamire and Marion, while GSW had Ellis and SJackson (and JRichardson before that), with very little inside presence. Davis thrived in this style, and GSW had some exciting wins over the last couple of years, but they were still a borderline playoff team both times, even with the unforgettable series against Dallas.

Some may say that one version of the Clips roster can play in this style. Thornton, RDavis, and Gordon can all get out and run. Tim Thomas and Steve Novak can get up and down and hit shots as big men, and Kaman or Camby are both relatively athletic for their size and can be excellent high volume rebounding anchors that GSW was lacking.

Clipper coach Mike Dunleavy, of course, seems to be very much the anti-D'Antoni or Nelson. He likes to focus on defense, running through the offense, and cutting down on turnovers and ill-advised quick shots. Davis has never really had the chance to play with a pair of quality big men like Kaman and Camby. With Kaman's very solid low-post game, and the ability of BDavis, Thornton, RDavis, and Mobley to score within the offense, along with greatly improved 3 pt shooting to play inside-out, the Clips could be successful playing at a slower pace.

The result is probably going to be a hybrid. When the opportunity is there to run and get up a good quick shot, coming off a block, steal, or rebound--and there should be a lot more of those--it's hard to imagine a player with BD's creativity and strength not taking advantage of it. It seems like a major stretch to think that Dunleavy is suddenly going to pull out all the stops and try to beat teams with a barrage of offense.

But what do you think? And if it does turn out to be a hybrid, what's the best way to set that up?

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I seriously doubt

that running a slow down offense with Kaman and Camby together, and with EB, Ricky Davis and Thornton, would be very successful. MDSr has to let BD create for this team to be successful. Pass the popcorn, folks!!

by Jax on Aug 22, 2008 4:51 PM PDT reply actions

Typo?

EB?

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Aug 22, 2008 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions

Freudian

by Jax on Aug 22, 2008 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions

Talk is cheap

MDsr said he was going to play up tempo last season, but that lasted about a game.

However, this season he has seemingly gone beyond the talk to actually acquiring talent who will be best in an up tempo style. Baron was a no brainer, but RDavis and JWill are also best in the open court. Add in Thornton and hopefully Gordon as the year moves along, and hopefully you got some athletes on the floor to run with Baron at all times. Camby and Kaman both play the role of getting the board to start the break (or blocking the shot, or playing back stop while the perimeter defenders go after steals) which facilitates more up tempo. The bottom line is, I think a VERY fast tempo suits the make up of the team, but it remains to be seen if MDsr allows it to happen.

Kaman is a good post up player, and commands a double team. BUT if your offense is forced to go through him time and again, you’re in trouble. I think we saw that last season, even at the height of Kaman 2.0. He’s good and getting better, but he’s not the guy you want to go to over and over. Much better to look for early offense opportunities.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Aug 22, 2008 6:27 PM PDT reply actions

Different tempos

Part of what I was trying to say is that there are a lot of variations of “uptempo.” Well below that, of course, is a team with Sam Cassell at PG and Kaman and FElton down low.

My question is whether there’s a difference between a “VERY fast tempo” and Phoenix/GSW or D’Antoni/Nelson tempo. Call Phoenix/GSW a “super fast tempo.” “VERY fast” would be appropriate for any team with Baron Davis, especially with AT, RDavis, and EGordon. I think that Dunleavy can live with “fast,” “very fast,” and maybe “VERY fast,” with JWill coming off the bench and mobile defenders/rebounders/shot blockers in Camby and Kaman. But I don’t think he’ll ever get to “super fast” and 7 seconds or less.

My hope is that they’ll take advantage of a lot of opportunities and get a lot of early offense going. I don’t mind setting things up for Kaman and getting him going, or having Thornton get points in the offense, or just giving the ball to Baron Davis midway through the shot clock and seeing what he comes up with. No, it won’t work at all to go to Kaman and run through the offense time after time after time. The Clips have some pretty good shooters and open court players now, but they also don’t need to be a team that jacks up bad shots and just tries to outscore you. They need to play defense and not try to beat teams with just offensive firepower, but it’s a fine line. And we know that when there’s a question, Dunleavy is going to slow things down and try to play defense and cut down on turnovers and bad shots, and err on the side of caution.

by citizen zhiv on Aug 23, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions

I am hoping that Dunleavy tries to defend aggressively

to create turnovers and fast break points. i think that would be the best use of this roster.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Aug 24, 2008 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions

Somewhere else on the board...

…someone commented on how the Clips were a pretty decent up and down team before Cassell’s arrival. And, it’s all a foggy blur now, but I do remember Livingston breaking out and running with that Maggette guy on a pretty quick second unit in that same year. MD let Cassell play his game, I think he’ll give BD a lot of rope. Can’t wait, really.

by John Raffo on Aug 22, 2008 7:42 PM PDT reply actions

Always just a theory

Livingston was rarely healthy and we only saw him in a very limited way. Yes, you’re right, Livingston and Maggette were both part of the 2nd unit for the first half of the 06-07 season. It was a deeply funky time, however, and the times when Liv was out running with a good unit seem to have been very fleeting and rare.

by citizen zhiv on Aug 23, 2008 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions

Yeah I think your right

I remember Ralph bringing it up last season. I think he said that before they got FElton they were averaging like 25 dunks a game. Don’t know what season but it was recently because we had Maggette.

by bestclipfan on Aug 23, 2008 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions

You must mean Cassell

Not FElton. Probably the Odom-FElton-QRich-Maggette-Miles team, or the year after with Miles traded for Andre Miller.

by citizen zhiv on Aug 23, 2008 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions

04-05 Clips

This was Livingston’s rookie year and Marko was at helm. Livingston was out a significant part of the year, but still had a few 10 assist games. Also, Marko averaged 6.1 assists, had his highest career output..so MDSr is capable with some running. I know that was the plan last year as well, but after Kaman 2.0 came around, MDSr predictably overused him in the offense. It didn’t help that Thornton is such a good isolation player.

Who knows what this year will hold? Certainly Kaman is the only PF/C with legit post moves at this point, so this team is best served as a full-court team. We’ll see.

I love LAC.

by oasisman on Aug 23, 2008 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions

You are probably right

so it proves swami’s point this would not be Dunleavy’s first running team.

by bestclipfan on Aug 23, 2008 7:45 PM PDT reply actions

History tells us

MDSr will continue to make the Clips a defensive oriented team, especially with his comments after the Camby acquisition. This is fine with me. We have the talent to shut down and frustrate a lot of opponents, especially if BDiddy and Buckets are inclined to play defense and Thornton improves in that capacity.

It’s going to be a hybrid offense like Zhiv suggests. Gone are the days where MDSr whistles and calls the play whenever the Clips get the ball, then take the full 8 secs to get up court and dump the ball into the post when the shot clock turns red. “Individual matchups” is still going to be MDSr’s preferred offensive philosophy. But with BDiddy running the show, that’s often going to mean quickly getting the ball up court and scoring some quick baskets. Remember that with Cassell this was never an option, and even with Livingston the squad didn’t really have the speed for this.

Baron Davis changes EVERYTHING. He’ll be able to decide what the best matchup on the court is, whether it’s himself, Thornton, or Kaman. If he makes good decisions then we have a lot of weapons on the offensive end. Last year we continually got shut down by the zone (why we didn’t face the zone every single game is beyond me, don’t NBA teams have scounts?) That won’t happen this year, thankfully. If the opposing defense is tight, we still have a few guys that can make plays with the shot clock winding down – BDiddy, Buckets, and Thornton. It’s going to be very difficult for even MDSr to mess this up.

by supac on Aug 24, 2008 6:35 AM PDT reply actions