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"Team Turmoil" article

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-34-63/Turmoil-to-Follow.html

Not surprisingly, a number of pundits are expecting that the Clips will descend quickly into chaos and that things will get quite ugly.  As in, truly ugly, uglier than they ever were as long as Saint FElton was there to keep a steady hand on the tiller.  Leaving out, of course, the fact that FElton didn't play last year and his performance took a notable dip in the 06-07 season, but those are minor quibbles.   

I actually kind of like these pronouncements and the way that they lower expectations to the very bottom.  And it's fun to pick out the inconsistencies.  But with that said, there's still apparently no way to escape the "It's the Clippers" refrain.  Is it just me, or are there other teams that have performed worse over the last three years, once you factor in losing a franchise player for the season due to injury?

But let's get to those inconsistencies.

The Nuggets did beat out the Cllps.  Maybe that's because they're looking like an absolute train wreck, with a pair of stars who haven't gelled together and all sorts of other problems.  A bad defensive team got rid of their two best defensive players.  The stars, Melo and AI, are more than a little bitter about the team shedding Camby, who made huge contributions with rebounding and shot-blocking, for nothing, while the less-than-formidable Martin and Nene are still around and still making big money.

But while Camby's veteran presence and productivity is sorely missed on the Nuggets, it apparently doesn't count for much on the Clippers.  Despite the fact that Camby is a more productive rebounder and shot-blocker than FElton, and that Denver's star players will sorely miss his professionalism and locker-room influence, he can't replace Brand and the team could be headed for real trouble.  Camby can be a strong, helpful presence with AI and Melo, but it appears he won't have the same effect on Baron Davis and Kaman, Thornton, and others.  Curious.

The big argument favoring Clipper turmoil is the fact that Baron Davis is a maverick, while MDunleavy is a buttoned-up control freak.  It is kind of interesting that GSW didn't get any "turmoil" votes, but I guess a team that loses its best player and then loses his replacement, which still has no center or viable interior presence, might be bad but will still be relatively happy because Don Nelson's the coach and they're going to be jacking up shots.  There were no votes for GSW, so I guess losing Baron Davis won't really affect them, and we don't get the chance to discuss how the good qualities that will be missed on GSW won't have the same effect on the Clippers.  Too bad.  Maybe there weren't any, like the way he scored tons of points and took over games and hit big shots and became unstoppable in the playoffs.  GSW still has the Camby and Brand-like mature, steadying influence of Stephen Jackson, so they definitely should be fine and easygoing when things get tough.

About that Baron Davis/Dunleavy thing:  yes, there's a chance that Dunleavy could put on his stubborn face and decide that his new franchise player doesn't know how to play basketball and lead him to the doghouse, and things could get very bad.  But I happen to think that chance is exceedingly small, for a number of reasons.  First, Davis signed with the Clippers as a choice.  Dunleavy wooed him and supervised the deal.  Davis has been in the league long enough to know Dunleavy very well.  Davis is from LA and he knows the town and the Clippers.  So if he thought that the team and the coach were poison and that there were bound to be conflicts, he wouldn't have made the deal.  Of course, there's a major FElton complication in all of this, because it seems that Davis' primary intent may have been to play with FElton.  But it turns out that it wasn't--his most basic intent was to make a good 5-year deal and come home and play for the Clippers.  The given in playing for the Clippers is playing for Dunleavy, and in the end FElton was less than reliable.  Dunleavy and the Clippers have backed up their commitment to Davis by working hard to put the best team possible together during the offseason, using their capspace on Camby, making an offer to Buike, signing RDavis, JWill, Skinner and others.  It's been a strong show of support.  And with all of the moves and the veterans the Clips are still major capspace players for 2010, with substantial expiring contracts for next season.  Dunleavy, who is the primary architect for all this, is doing everything possible to build a highly competitive team around Baron Davis.

So, naturally, Dunleavy is going to treat him badly and try to mold him into his kind of player.  The naysayers aren't factoring in how generous Dunleavy has been with the veterans that he has signed or brought in.  Maybe you have to be a close Clipper watcher like we are to have this kind of understanding, but the pundits are, after all, professionals.  Dunleavy treats his veterans extremely well.  Dunleavy gave Maggette and Wilcox a very hard time, but he inherited those guys.  Cassell and Mobley were both malcontents and gunners, with much more problematic reputations and skillsets than Davis.  Dunleavy made Cassell his on-court partner and gave him the widest latitude imaginable, and Mobley has been transformed into an upstanding, model veteran citizen.  While Wilcox was dismissed, Tim Thomas has been able to play his game with a free will and log a couple thousand smiling minutes of little defense, no rebounding, and hundreds of missed 3-pt shots, with Dunleavy as his strong defender throughout.  Dunleavy may be stubborn, but he's stubbornly loyal in supporting "his" guys.  And Baron Davis is going to be his guy--if you think that Dunleavy was effusive in his praise and faith in FElton and Cassell, just wait to see how he treats BD.

But hey, it's the Clippers.  So of course there's going to be turmoil.  What am I thinking? 

   

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Query

Would BD have found such a deal elsewhere? Perhaps he came home in spite of MDSr.

by Jax on Sep 12, 2008 9:36 PM PDT   0 recs

Well...

BD could have finished out his contract w/ GS, and signed a deal next summer which would have brought his 5-year cumulative total higher than his contract with the Clips. Perhaps he came home BECAUSE of MDSr. Who knows, but I’m inclined to think neither nor. He simply came home.

by supac on Sep 13, 2008 7:19 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I wonder

if the Clippers would have signed if they had known EB wasn’t coming back.

by Jax on Sep 13, 2008 8:42 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

My dark horse

for Massive Failure this season is the Spurs!…Clip and save…

by Lawler's Law on Sep 12, 2008 10:39 PM PDT   0 recs

I could see the massive failure part...

…but not the “team turmoil” part… the Spurs? They’ll just get old and fade away.

by swamigusto on Sep 13, 2008 7:14 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Excellent post...

MD always let Cassell play his game… even when Cassell jacked up shots early in the clock. But… someone has to go in Mike’s doghouse. And it won’t certainly won’t be BD. It will be someone like Novak, who will come in and go like 17 for 20 over three or four games and then get five DNP-coach’s decisions in a row.

by swamigusto on Sep 13, 2008 7:08 AM PDT   0 recs

Doghouse Candidates

In writing the post, I realized that the key figure to look at in trying to guess how Dunleavy will approach isn’t Cassell—although he’s significant and rather obvious—, but is instead Tim Thomas. Dunleavy brought in Thomas, paid him, and has been completely supportive of him. And Thomas’ game is frustrating, if not infuriating, to the average fan. Now, we can still cut him some slack and say that he’s best as a backup big man who comes in and spreads the floor. But don’t we think that Dunleavy would like him to be a
“Dunleavy player,” to rebound and defend, to get inside and take good shots and not settle for too many 3s—especially when he’s his starting PF for an entire season (and while he’s getting good production out of Kaman and Maggette)? But no. Dunleavy has let Thomas play, with no apparent discouraging word or limitation of minutes.

And with all that being said as an important element of how Dunleavy will treat Baron Davis, I have to say that Tim Thomas is a pretty good candidate for Dunleavy’s doghouse at this point. I think that the Dunleavy support is tied to how badly he needs a certain player. He thought that with Kaman and Mikki Moore, he didn’t really “need” Wilcox. He thought that with QRoss, he didn’t really need Maggette and he could bring him off the bench. He needs Baron Davis very badly. But the utility of Tim Thomas is more doubtful now. Thomas is going to have to produce and contribute, and if he shoots like he did last year, then Novak is going to get some of his minutes, and we’re going to see larger helpings of Brian Skinner.

I don’t think Novak is going to be significant enough to attain doghouse status. He’s too far outside the rotation.

Eric Gordon could be in a semi-doghouse of very limited minutes, and he’ll have a short leash because he’s a rookie. He’ll have to be very good and very effective in order to really break into the rotation. My guess is that Dunleavy wants to have extremely limited expectations for him this year.

Jason Williams is a very good doghouse candidate. He has a Dunleavy favorite in Jason Hart as the 3rd stringer playing behind him.

And Ricky Davis is going to require some careful Dunleavy handling. He could easily end up in the doghouse. My fear is that Ricky Davis is going to be reminiscent of Rueben Patterson, although they’re very different players. He has a lot of responsibility coming off the bench, but if somebody else steps up (Gordon? there aren’t a lot of candidates) and there’s too much pressure on him, he could lose his focus and crack, and wear out his Dunleavy welcome.

But these are specific players and their doghouse potential, which is very different from the general chaos of team turmoil and a total meltdown. I don’t really see that happening on the Clips, unless they’re hit with a bad injury or two and face a different type of adversity besides their internal dynamics.

by citizen zhiv on Sep 13, 2008 4:15 PM PDT   0 recs

Depressing post

Thinking about how MDSr could screw this team up like he screwed up his past teams.

by Jax on Sep 13, 2008 9:36 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

MDSr is the reason

that the Clips are not in complete devestation right now. Sad to see so much doubt as to whether the man is capable of coaching this team to a winning season. Can anyone tell me when the last time was that coach had a roster this talented?

by oneight on Sep 13, 2008 9:43 PM PDT   0 recs

There are so many issues with MDSr I wouldn't know where to start

Yes he and the brass did the best they could, I guess, to salvage things after they bungled the EB affair.

As to MDSr having a roster “this talented.” Not sure what you mean. He had a great team in Portland, for example. Now they have some good players, but time will tell.

When has MDSr EVER overachieved in coaching?

Frankly, coaching the team to a winning season won’t guarantee the playoffs this year. Some of us would like to see playoff success, not merely a winning season.

by Jax on Sep 13, 2008 11:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

winning season and playoff success

would both be overachieving considering all events starting with the SL injury. This team has an excellent chance for both. A new team. A new style of play. From the coaches own mouth. Why dwell on the past?

by oneight on Sep 14, 2008 3:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Had Doc Rivers ever overachieved in coaching?

Guess the Celtics should have heeded the history of the 06-07 season and canned the guy. I mean, Phil Jackson was going to so badly outcoach Doc Rivers in the Finals that no one questioned that matchup, right? Did you believe that Rivers was a better coach than Dunleavey two years ago? If so, how about now?

by oneight on Sep 14, 2008 8:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I would concede that even MDSr would succeed

if he were handed three hall of famers. I would have to watch Doc Rivers coach to give you a more informed opinion his coaching style. However, I don’t recall him getting into the extraneous off the court stuff MDSr has been involved in recently.

by Jax on Sep 14, 2008 8:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Read the Sports Guy's articles from the seasons before Garnett

But again, I don’t suppose you are interested in anything more than your ever more boring and pointless agenda.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Sep 15, 2008 9:23 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Seriously

You really can’t judge a coach simply by the roster. I suspect that what oneight means here that he must be a good coach if he had a hand in assembling the talent on the team. That, however, is not the job of the coach, but rather of the GM, as Lawler’s Law indicated.

There are significant doubts about his ability to manufacture a winning season, among many of us, because we have followed him for years and have seen what he has done, how he has coached, his style of coaching, and the other things he’s been involved in.

by Jax on Sep 14, 2008 8:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

What does "manufacture a winning season" mean?

Its easy to criticize when, time after time, you refuse to quantify your claims, often in the guise of anti-intellectual hatred of statistical measures.

Its time for you to accept the fact that you have a completely irrational hatred of Mike Dunleavy. Call it DDS. Dunleavy Derangement Syndrome. It colors every post and comment your read (see a recent completely unrelated comment on USA Basketball) and you can’t read a thread without posting a comment on Dunleavy. You are completely unhinged.

He took the Clippers farther than anyone before. He has had great success everywhere he has gone. He has won Coach of the Year.

Again, your boring and pointless agenda.

By all objective accounts, Dunleavy is a qualified NBA head coach. Move on.

Get me BD and 75 and I'm in

by John R on Sep 15, 2008 9:28 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

LOL

Statistics = intellectual – only to someone who can’t see the forest for the trees

I like MDSr personally. What I don’t like is his plodding reactive coaching style and his inability to get along with others and garner their respect (leadership).

He took the Clippers to the playoffs once. So did Larry Brown (in his second season).

There are others besides me who are not enamored with MDSr and his coaching style. For example, if you would read above someone else started this thread. Whether you like it or not, people’s opnions differ on the coach of the Clippers (see TJ Simers). This is a blog about the Clippers. People will have disagreements. I certainly respect the opinions of others. I get the fact you like him. I don’t understand why.

No one forces you to respond to this series of posts or to comment on MDSr generally. I think that you’re obsessed with me, and I’m concerned about it. Perhaps I should hire an armed guard.

by Jax on Sep 15, 2008 9:35 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

OK

I LOVE this article. Lower expectations, True Hoop. Lower them into the ground. Bury them.

Citizen Zhiv is a master debater (be sure and emphasize the ‘de’ in that phrase if you say it out loud). The inconsistency of Camby’s absence hurting the Nuggets while at the same time his presence hurts the Clippers is a great point. Until you realize that these are 25 separate contributors to the discussion, with presumably 25 different opinions. The guys who picked the Nuggets for ‘Team Turmoil’ by definition did not pick the Clippers.

And let’s face facts – the Clippers have 10 new players, including, by my count, at least five with poor citizenship marks somewhere in their basketball histories (Ricky and Baron, rookies Jordan and Taylor, and Williams). Maybe these reputations are deserved, maybe not. Maybe they’ll come out with something to prove, maybe it just won’t work. At any rate, the Clippers are a perfectly valid pick for a team that could be headed for a meltdown, with or without the ’it’s the Clippers’ rationale.

Interestingly, I think the Baron versus MDsr conflict is not the one to look for. Baron, while he’s certainly had some issues, given his unceremonious departures from both the Hornets and the Dubs, has been a profoundly positive influence when he first arrives in a town. So if we’re really banking on past history here, let’s not forget that. And yes, MDsr’s fortune is tied to Baron pretty inextricably at this point. He’ll have plenty of freedom – more than Cassell I would venture to guess. My question is more whether the Clippers will really play fast enough to take advantage of their personnel under MDsr – but I don’t really anticipate problems between the coach and the star… not this season at any rate.

But for now, let them say this team is headed for trouble. It’s a reasonable prediction in many ways. And even in explaining the pick, Matt Wong said this: “I like their talent and the chips on their respective shoulders.” I’ll take that and we’ll see what happens. But isn’t it also possible that the megawatt charisma of Baron Davis takes the 5 holdovers and the 9 newcomers and shows them how to have fun playing great basketball?

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by ClipperSteve on Sep 14, 2008 10:47 AM PDT   0 recs

Nuggets facn here

Great points: over at pickaxeandroll the general feeling is that the loss of Camby will not in fact destroy us defensively. It is indeed curious that ESPN has killed the Nuggets for losing him but don’t credit the Clippers much for obtaining him.

by joshhopp on Sep 14, 2008 5:00 PM PDT   0 recs

Isn't that the same as Baron?

Golden State has been bashed for losing Baron, but the Clips seem to get little credit for acquiring him at a $4M discount. Isn’t Baron supposed to be a game changer? Did I just dream up the Golden State vs Dallas debacle just two years ago? Didn’t we resolve the most pressing positional problem and demonstrate our willingness to invest in change? That should be worth something – shouldn’t it? We are the Clippers – if we are going to get respect we are going to have to get it the hard way.

by citizen bob on Sep 15, 2008 8:47 PM PDT   0 recs

he's a players' coach

MT (Michael Thompson) said that Dunleavy is a great coach and a player’s coach, most specifically, a point guard coach. He said this when he interviewed Eric Gordon. He told Eric that he’ll have a fun time playing for him. In case you didn’t know, MT’s opinion is relevant considering that he played for Mike Dunleavy. He played for Mike during the 1991-1992 years (I believe), when the Lakers lost to the Bulls in the NBA Finals. If my info is correct, Dunleavy did coach some guy named Magic Johnson right?

by cliptakular on Sep 17, 2008 10:21 AM PDT   0 recs

MT doesn't consider

him a great coach though because MDsr made him ride the pine since the minute he arrived to take over for Riley…

by Lawler's Law on Sep 17, 2008 12:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah

Steve Hartman always makes fun of Thompson’s relationship with Dunleavy whenever Dunleavy’s name comes up, because Dunleavy parked MT on the bench (not sure who he had playing in front of him). But it was at the end of Thompson’s career.

Sometimes (when it suits our own Clipurposes?) Thompson’s inside basketball knowledge comes through and he makes sense. It might well be true that his informed impression is that MD is a very good coach, a player’s coach (of sorts—let’s say, for some veterans, like Cassell, Mobley, Tim Thomas—and Baron Davis), and a good PG coach.

But I’d be inclined to throw out all his statements, because Thompson’s general Clipper knowledge is extremely limited. I remember him as being impressed by the Baron Davis deal, which caused him to pause for a moment, and pretty fair-minded about the FElton betrayal—Dunleavy did a good job of forming opinion on that one, and it was the kind of situation that sends VtB into a tailspin. But when the Clips got Camby Thompson was completely dense, saying over and over, why do they want two centers, they already have Chris Kaman? It was a pretty surprising, superficial, and stubborn point of view, especially coming from a shill for a team that was handed Pau Gasol to replace Andrew Bynum, which is also pinning their championship hopes on playing Bynum and Gasol together (along with that Kobe guy). Maybe the Lakers should trade Gasol now that Bynum will be back. More seriously, Thompson really didn’t know much about Kaman’s game and his emergence—he knew he was putting up big numbers last year, and he must have some knowledge of Camby’s game, but he refused to see how they might mesh and complement each other. It’s the kind of thing he gets stuck on.

My guess is that he invented the Dunleavy argument on the fly, in a moment when he took his Laker hat off, to tell Gordon something that he would like to hear. Dunleavy may be some kind of player’s coach, but he’s not much of a rookies coach. And by the way, Gordon isn’t going to be playing PG either.

by citizen zhiv on Sep 17, 2008 1:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Great point about MT's views

However, Gasol isn’t a true center despite his height. His point about the Clippers already having a center is legit, but perhaps he didn’t realize that Camby was the best big reasonably available, and that the Clips will work with what they have. John R pointed out Camby’s shooting woes from the outside and I’m not bullish on Kaman developing the kind of outside game that would truly compliment Camby’s and that could be sustained over the course of a season. Having said that (and I know we’ve gone over this ad nauseum), assuming that the Clippers use three legit outside threats with the two of them, they should be able to come up with an interesting offense.

I would try to keep one of the two of them in the game at all times, assuming that Mobley, R. Davis and Gordon are playing consistently, to show some different looks (not bad when the second unit plays with a legit NBA starting center).

by Jax on Sep 17, 2008 1:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Not to mention...

a second unit with a legit starting center, going against most other teams BACKUP center. The Clips second unit has the potential to be as potent as their first. Assuming of course that either Camby or Kaveman are on the court at all times. It will interesting to see how this plays out.

by Clip Show on Sep 17, 2008 2:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Perhaps

But the first unit has some big unanswered questions: Can Cat play like a starting SG, can Thornton step up (he’s got to for them to be successful) and can Camby and Kaman play well together.

by Jax on Sep 17, 2008 2:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah...I know..

I was getting a little ahead of myself. MANY unanswered questions. Look at the bright side…at least the Clips didn’t go after Agent Zero..who apparently just had his knee scoped again, and will be out for at least the first month of the season.

by Clip Show on Sep 17, 2008 2:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

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