A Good Problem to Have - Who Starts for the Clippers? Part 1
Other than the backcourt of Baron Davis and Eric Gordon, there are no givens in the starting lineup for the Clippers on opening day this season. Coach Mike Dunleavy Sr. went into camp viewing it as a competition, which can certainly be a good thing. Starting jobs should not be hereditary - players need to get pushed in practice, and if there is a real chance that they're going to lose that spot in the lineup, they're not going to get complacent.
CMDsr took the safe (and prudent and reasonable) approach of establishing his training camp starting lineup by default - the starters at the end of last season (recognizing that in fact one guy in the mix, Zach Randolph, was already gone) would remain the starters until further notice. Meaning that Al Thornton, Marcus Camby and Chris Kaman would join Gordon and Davis in the first unit.
But from the moment Blake Griffin was drafted and the team traded for Rasual Butler, it's been obvious that those players deserve serious consideration as starters. Griffin, after all, is the first overall pick in the draft and has more than lived up to the honor thus far. Meanwhile, Butler was a full time starter in New Orleans last season for a playoff team. So even while declaring Thornton, Camby and Kaman the starters, everyone knew that MDsr had two decisions to make:
- Do you start Thornton or Butler at small forward?
- Of Griffin, Camby and Kaman, which one comes off the bench?
Bear in mind that MDsr has more of a penchant to play the matchup game than most NBA coaches. He relished his versatile 2006 playoff team (and into 2007), and frequently tweaked the starting lineup even when his players were healthy. Kaman would come off the bench against the Suns and Warriors. Livingston would get the start against some teams, Cassell against others. (We'll leave the Ross/Maggette issue for a little later.) And when he was discussing the current situation with reporters a couple weeks ago, he raised the possibility of having situational starters, citing his versatilve 98-99 Blazers team as another example when he has done that in the past. But let's hope he keeps the situational stuff to a minimum, and specific matchups aside the question remains - who are the starters against the bulk of the opponents?
Thornton or Butler?
The answer is Butler. I'm not saying anything I haven't said before. Al Thornton's best asset on the basketball court is his ability to get a shot. He has a terrific first step, crazy athleticism, good quickness, good size, a variety of shots and decent range. But he is primarily a slasher, doesn't do a great job of spacing the floor, and most relevant of all, he needs the ball in his hands to be effective. In a starting unit featuring Baron Davis and Eric Gordon on the perimeter, you absolutely prefer the ball in their hands. More importantly, the Clippers, no matter who starts up front, will certainly want to work inside out with strong post play from either Kaman or Griffin. Floor spacing is crucial to success in the post. The net effect is that in the starting unit, Al would likely be the fourth or even fifth option on offense. When you're a scorer, but you're the fourth option, it's just not a good fit.
Butler is a better long range shooter, a better catch-and-shoot shooter, better at spacing the floor, and better at moving the ball. He is able to get his points without stopping the ball on offense. He's also a better defender than Thornton, particularly on help defense. Butler is far from perfect. Thornton is bigger, and against big threes (think LeBron James or Carmelo Anthony or Ron Artest) Butler would be at a major physical disadvantage. (Remember, Butler started at guard for the Hornets.) Along those same lines, Butler is a poor rebounder - even worse than Thornton, and Al's not good for a forward. And Butler certainly doesn't have the scoring repertoire that Thornton does.
But of course we're not talking about an all or nothing situation here. Both of these guys are going to play big minutes for the Clippers this season. It's worth noting that Thornton led the Clippers in minutes per game last season - by a pretty wide margin. He won't lead them in minutes this year, but he'll play plenty, whether he starts or comes off the bench.
In many ways, Thornton is the prototypical "scorer off the bench". Think Vinnie Johnson on Detroit's Bad Boy teams in the 80s. They called him the "Microwave" because he heated up in a hurry, and his job was to come in the game and shoot. Playing with a more offensively challenged second unit (for instance Telfair, Butler, Smith and Camby or something similar) suddenly Al is your go to scorer on the perimeter. Bassy pushes the tempo, if the break's not there you look for Smith in the post, if that's not working, what do you do? Give the ball to Al and let him go to work. Suddenly Al Thornton makes sense.
And it's pretty clear that MDsr is predisposed to this type of paradigm. The situation in 2006 with Corey Maggette and Quinton Ross was a horribly failed experiment in "start with defense, bring scoring off the bench." If he chose to start Ross over Maggette then, it's pretty obvious what he's going to do now. Because Ross, for all his defensive chops, was a horribly limited offensive player who essentially doomed the Clippers to trying to score against an extra defender when he was on the floor. And Maggette, for all his ball stopping, was an extremely efficient scorer. If Butler/Thornton is Ross/Maggette in broad strokes (offense versus defense, scoring off the bench), the specifics all point to a much easier decision in 2009. To wit, Butler is a vastly superior player to Ross, and Thornton has the same usage rate as Maggette, without the efficiency. Ergo, if Ross started over Maggette, it follows that Butler will start over Thornton.
There's another reason that the Butler/Thornton situation is more clear cut than Ross/Maggette, at least to me. In 2006, when Ross replaced Maggette in the starting lineup (while Corey was injured), Ross was a 24 year old in his second season in the league, and Maggette was a six year veteran, who'd been a full time starter for over four seasons, and was coming off a season where he averaged 22 points per game. I'm saying, there are egos involved, and regardless of whose fault it was, clearly Maggette's bruised psyche was at least partially responsible for the Clippers underperforming in 06-07. If indeed Al Thornton loses his starting job to a new guy (and let's face it, to Al it will almost certainly be a loss), I hope that it is handled well. Butler has more NBA experience, was a full time starter last season just like Thornton - I'm saying, it's easier to make the case this time around. Imagine Maggette's response back in 2006. "Let me get this straight. I've been injured, and now I'm healthy, and you're telling me I lost my starting job to that guy? He can't even shoot." Al Thornton is by all accounts a great guy, a hard worker, and a great teammate. He's likely already feeling a bit like a forgotten man with all of the hype surrounding Blake Superior, and Griffin, Gordon and Jordan being actively discussed as the building blocks of the future. Let's hope, if indeed this conversation happens, that it is handled well.
By the way, I don't have any inside information on this. There is no official decision as of yet, as far as I know. It's just what I think is going to happen. It may or may not happen on opening night. Against Artest and the Lakers, that's actually one of those situational games where you may want Thornton as the stronger three man. But over the course of the season, I expect Butler to start more games than Thornton. By the way, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Thornton ended up averaging more minutes. But I think Butler will be the ostensible starter.
Tomorrow - Griffin, Camby, Kaman - who comes off the bench?
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Preseason Performance
Great post. Big man rotation tomorrow? Not in a couple of hours?
At any rate, it seems at this point that it just wasn’t meant to be, for Al Thornton. My own view going into training camp and the pre-season was to give Thornton a slight edge. But he had to show that he had made progress going into his third season, that he was doing a better job of moving the ball, rebounding and playing D, and shot selection. The other factor was not knowing Butler and his game very well.
Thornton seemed solid and ready to make progress, and we heard about his hiring the nutritionist, but it seemed apparent pretty quickly that he hadn’t put in a lot of offseason work and didn’t make the modest leap forward that was necessary. It’s not that it was the “same old Al,” but more like it wasn’t the “remarkably improved and focused Al.” He was on his way to improving and figuring out his role during camp and preseason. He would have been ready for opening day, and he can’t really be blamed for that approach, but it put his hold onto the starting spot into a certain amount of jeopardy.
And then he got hurt. It wasn’t much, but again, it created a lost opportunity for him to help himself and show that he should be the starter. Thornton had to prove something to make it obvious that he should hold onto his starting job, that he was smart and effective enough that it should be a no-brainer, and he just didn’t do it. And his opportunity to show it was limited by his injury.
Then there’s Butler. The other side of the equation shows a lot more positive factors. He didn’t shoot the ball in the Clips opening loss when they had players out, but he followed that up by putting together a bunch of good games, even a couple of outstanding ones. He has limitations, as SP points out, and Thornton is still going to be a substantial asset, but Butler was impressive, and pretty much all we could have asked for, especially as a complement to Thornton.
The fact that Kareem Rush has made the team and also played well in preseason is also an important factor in the rotation of the wings.
It's more than just who's playing better
It’s who plays a better role in the offense for the first team. There’s little question that it’s Butler.
Yup
Just trying to say, in a nice way, that Thornton had a narrow chance and seemed to squander it and get dinged up at the same time. He had to show that he could be a role player, rebound and keep the ball moving, etc. It was actually a tall order. And in the end it’s probably better for him to be himself, retain his confidence that he can get his shot and score.
Butler seems the obvious choice, and a fine addition to the lineup and rotation.
by citizen zhiv on Oct 22, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Dis-agree, Thronton is established on the team and did not need the minutes that the new faces did.
sure he is banged up and all the more reason to sit out in preseason. If regular season AT would of played with that injury and would of done good. It is obvious by his appearance that he put the work in on the off season and come the 27th. he will show it.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
You say AT is bigger and can handle larger SF then why Sool on the 27th. against Artest?
I think Sool is a Great addition to our team but he is a 2 and was a 2 for NOH and started last season only because of Peja’s injury. Sool is much better off the bench and besides his performance against GSW he has not shown a consistent shot.
AT has much improved his D in the off season and has put in extra conditioning and muscle too.
Friday we will see the starting rotation gearing up for the opener and I think it will be,
BD
EJ
AT
BG
Kaman
With DJ off the bench for Kaman or Camby/Smith in for BG and BG moving to the 5 depending on the Foul Situation.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
Situational starting to match up against the Artests of the world is an MDSr trap
Artest has to guard Butler on the perimeter which takes him away from the middle. The team can help on D. Not an issue
Artest will shut Sool down, he is much stronger then Sool and more aggesive,
AT will have to match against Artest. Artest gave BG a hard time, so you think that Butler will be able to handle him?
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
Hornets fan here...
“started last season only because of Peja’s injury.”
That’s not true. Butler got the starting gig early in the season when Mo Pete went down, it had nothing to do with Peja. He kept the starting job for the rest of the season because he played relatively well overall, shot the three ball very well in the first half of the year, and overall offered a just a bit more as a starting 2 then Mo Pete did.
"Sool is much better off the bench and besides his performance against GSW he has not shown a consistent shot.
He will. I mean, he’s a pure shooter… and guys like that are going to have ups and downs, its the nature of long-range shooting. It may depend on how many minutes he’s given. He’s shown in the past that he needs to be on the floor a good bit to shoot as well as he’s capable of.
Anyway… just wanted to throw my two cents in and correct you on the Peja thing. Though he’s a very limited player, Butler became one of my favorite Hornets last season, so I may be paying more attention to the Clips this season than I normally would… just to see how the Phoenix is doing.
Thanks for the update
I think most of us were with you on that already. Still a few Thornton fans (as well there should be) who may be feeling a bit threatened. Phoenix? Is that a Butler nickname?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Oct 23, 2009 1:32 AM PDT up reply actions
AT is just more of a threat to the other team be it Offensively or on Defense,
he is still a 3pt. threat so to guard him you cannot give him space or he will knock it down from long range, get to close and he will catch you with that quick first step take you baseline and throw it down and on D he is much improved over last season. Had much higher averages then Sool last season and Sool doesn’t seam to offer much more on Offense other then face up shooting, no drives, no fakes, just corner threes or a face up shot, not much D or Rebounding either.
Don’t get me wrong, I am glad to have Sool on our team but I just feel he is a come off the pine kind of guy.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
While he might be a better offensive player in some ways (debatable)
That doesn’t mean that he would fit in better than Butler for the first team offense.
The fact that he is more of a scorer than Butler suggests only that he might do better off the bench where there are less folks competing for the rock.
Trust me, Butler will start.
OK, now that you say so it must be true?
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
Everyone here is all hyped on Sool only because he is a new face to our team,
the fact is that his averages from last season are lower and he is just not as well rounded as AT is, also he is more of a true SG and not a SF especially the kind on SF that will have to match up against Ron-Ron on the 27th.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
Complementary
Let’s remember that both of them are going to play at the spot, and they’ll also be on the floor together, with the Phoenix (still looking for confirmation that P. is indeed a Sool sobriquet, you know, since we’re all about nicknames at ClipsNation, especially intriguing ones) playing minutes at SG as well, as Gordon’s back up.
Thornton’s going to get his minutes. And he should have every opportunity to play his best.
I do like Thornton occupying Artest, which would force Kobe to stay at home on Eric Gordon.
But I like the Blake Griffin-Artest matchup even better. Artest seems like a guy that Griffin could stay with at SF, and the matchup would be fun to watch.
Phil and the Lakers are already duping us, talking about how the Lakers best player (Gasol) might not be available against the Clips for the opener.
by citizen zhiv on Oct 23, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Just my opinion
Your point about having higher averages doesn’t really work because Butler played in an offense where he was not looked upon to score as much as Thornton.
We have scoring from many other places and we need him to space the floor.
Space the floor with what? 31-72 from the floor and 11-32 from 3pt. land,
those are Sools numbers in preseason, hardly enough to justifiy a double team if this is how you think he will space the floor.
And I know it is just preseason, thought I would save some stating the obvious time.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
"Though he's a very limited player..."
I’d like to hear more about that. Limited how? Doesn’t go to the rim? Okay. Don’t need him for that. Not a rebounder. Seen that. But long, a good defender, good shooter. Doesn’t qualify him as “very” limited to me.
No D? Wrong there. We don’t need hime to drive, or post up. We need a Trevor Ariza, a guy whot FITS into the offense, takes the shot left to him when’s open. Steve and others are completely right. AT is an offensive player first and foremost, he will be wasted as the fourth or fifth option as the starter. I always liked Q-Ross as the starter, we get that now, but Butler’s offsensive game is light years ahead of what Ross brought. AT is perfect off the bench for the second, I wish we could stop arguing about this. Hopefully CMDSr. can put the issue to rest.
by Gordon for President on Oct 23, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
What makes Sool a Defensive threat?
he is not a shot blocker, he is not a lock down type, not a re-bounder, slow on defensive rotations. Just wondering? that’s all.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
Perimeter defense, something we sorely need. I anticipate he’ll have the same problems Ariza did against Artest, Pierce-types. But because he won’t stop ball movement like Al will, he’s just an all-around better fit for the First Unit. Not too mention the corner three we will be able to count on.
by Gordon for President on Oct 23, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Sool defense--and let's not forget Mardy Collins
He moves well and seems to have good defensive focus, and he has good length and athleticism. He’s a lot closer to being a lock down defender against certain guys than Thornton. I suppose you could call Gordon a lock down defender against smaller SGs, perhaps even the majority of SGs. Thornton matches up well against guys like Ray Allen, Richard Hamilton, Ben Gordon, and others, and he is probably better than Baron Davis at guarding small quick PGs like Tony Parker, Aaron Brooks, and maybe even Chris Paul and Steve Nash, so there’s some mix and match there. But elite teams with big elite SGs, guys like Kobe and Brandon Roy, are a tough matchup for Gordon, and he can only do his best. Sool might be the best defensive option against those guys, and against all of the wings in the league who are like himself, long and athletic, can hit the outside shot.
Artest is a good matchup for Griffin, but what about a guy like Paul Pierce? Sool is a better option than Thornton, presumably, but it reminds me that the Clips best lock down defender may be Mardy Collins. MC plays tough defense and matches up well against a lot of wings, and he’s a good ball handler and distributor. He can’t shoot, however, but it’s worth remembering that he’s a strong defender. And ultimately, the Clips are going to go as far as their defense and rebounding takes them. They’re going to shoot much better than last year, they’ll score more points and be more efficient. They need to hold the turnovers down too. But only if they play tough defense and hold a consistent rebounding edge will they win the number of games that some of us are hoping they can.
by citizen zhiv on Oct 23, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Ooops--big mistake in there
4th sentence should read that “Gordon matches up well against guys like Ray Allen, etc…” Not Thornton
by citizen zhiv on Oct 23, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Hm, well....
I’m not sure how you define “limited,” but I’ll try to describe what I mean. Like you said, he doesn’t really go to the rim nor does he rebound very well (he’ll have a few good nights on the boards but overall he’s definitely subpar).
If you don’t think he’s needed for those things, well okay, but they are still parts of his game that are missing. Additionally, he’s not much of a passer or playmaker. 1.0 assist per 36 minutes last season – the third lowest on the team. You can’t count on him to really be a part of the offense other than shooting.
As for defense… well he tries hard, and he does get some nice highlight blocks every other game or so. He definitely plays D.
Is he a good defender though? That’s debatable. Byron Scott usually matched him up against great perimeter players last season, so he certainly had confidence in him in that regard, but from what I saw all last year I wouldn’t call Butler a great defender. The effort is there, but he is limited defensively as well as offensively. Generally he’s above average against certain types of perimeter players… players who use their body and strength to get to the rim or get their shot off… Butler can guard those guys fairly well, but against perimeter players who use speed and quickness he struggles.
Oh and for the guys asking if Phoenix is really a nickname for him, yes, it is. We started caling Butler that midway through last year when it became apparent that he was really having a resurgence. The previous season Butler played very badly, lost his shot and his confidence, had some legal troubles and was relegated to garbage time or no time at all. So for him to grab the starting 2 spot and start reigning down clutch threes… he was a phoenix rising from the ashes.
He’s a shooter, with a limited all-around game. I mean, if you don’t think Rasual Butler is a limited player, then I’m not sure who you would consider to be limited. His strengths are very specific.
yea I saw the Pheonix name on wiki before
But it’s has a really nice back story to it.
I think Butler is one of those “stereotypical” limited players. He was stereotypically labeled a Shooter by the league/fans, but the Hornets nation, now Clippers Nation, and maybe the Heat nation…all know very well that Butler can do it all.
Take MCollins for example. ask anyone what he is….A defender that can’t do anything else to save his life
…ask a Clipper fan…A solid defender, Versatile (can play the SF, SG, and PG), scored all over finals MVP Paul Peirce
either way, is a very good player and a nice guy too. With all that said, he is a player that deserves to start, but on the clipper team should be the 6th man.
I see Butler’s ability to play the 2 or the 3 a greater asset off the bench than Thornton’s ability to play the 3 or the 4. Butler can rest either Thornton or Gordon, which is a better alternative than….Ricky? Rush? Collins?
….while on the other side, Thornton can rest Butler, but he can’t rest Gordon (direclty….theoretically Thornton can come in a slide Butler), and with all of out bigs, Thornton shouldn’t rest ANY of the 4’s
Um...
No, Hornets fans… such as myself, know very well that Butler IS a limited player.
Seriously, I’ll say it again… if Butler can’t be called a limited player, then jeez… I can’t think of a player who can be.
All that said… I really, really like Butler. As I said in another post, he became my favorite Hornet (aside from CP3) last season.
I’m just giving you a realistic portrayal of his abilities. He does one or two things pretty well, but I’m not sure where your illusion that he can “do it all” comes from. That’s pretty far from the truth… no offense intended.
Validates my point exactly, Sool is a 2 not a 3.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
Thornton
Am I the only one who thinks he looks much bigger than last year? He looks big and strong and probably did put in a bit of work this offseason. I hope that extra effort is realized in better rebounding numbers.
As for who starts, I used to lean towards AT, but I’m not so sure anymore. I can’t help but agree with Zhiv in that Thornton needed to compete to stay a starter and he got hurt. That sucks and I know its not his fault, but that’s just how it is. I also agree with Steve, even if AT doesn’t start, he’ll get plenty of minutes.
Having the best players on the floor is old-style thinking...
I would adapt my starting five based on who i’m playing. This way there’s never locker room tension. So Dunleavy saying I don’t have a starting 5 I have a starting 7 thats dependent to the team we play against, I think, is a wise move.
Actually
I’d argue that there’s more tension when players don’t know if they’re starting or not on any given night.
I don't agree...
If you were Al Thornton, would you rather be 6th man the whole season, or start 40 games and 6th man the other 40?
Is Al's feelings the be all?
What about how Butler feels? Or anyone else for that matter. You’re suggesting constantly changing starters, not just Al and Butler. It puts everyone on edge. Have you ever even been in that kind of situation? Teams work best when everyone knows their role and embraces it.
If Thornton understands that he’s the 6th man, he may grow to accept it and realize that it allows him to be the focal point of the offense for stretches. He can turn into a 6th man of the year candidate like Manu.
But if he’s always going back and forth, then he’ll never accept his role as the 6th man and constantly hope that he’ll start that night. And when he doesn’t, he’ll feel disappointed. Same with every single other player on the roster who is a part-time starter.
The 6th man role has a part mental aspect to it
don’t you think? For some ego driven players, it’s important to be considered a “starter” and some view that as the best 5 players on the team (in the relative positions).
But you can’t tell me that Roger Mason is a better player than Manu.
The 6th man role to me is MORE important than the starting SF role on this team. The momentum can swing in a game by the way the 6th man can bring energy off the bench.
As been discussed here and on previous posts, Al seems to fit that role nicely due to his ability to beat players off the dribble and basically, score on his own against the bench players from the opposition.
Rasual however, seems to fit into the mould of what our team needs at the 3. We have scoring in abundance from PG, SG, PF and C with Baron, EJ, BG and Kaman so we need someone who spaces the floor and can hit the open 3 when Baron or EJ drive and kick or BG kicks it out. Rasual seems to be that man. The fact his perimeter D has a better reputation than Al’s (even if it’s not been obvious so far) also fits into a previous weakness of this team.
So it’s a matter of what the team needs and it really needs Rasual starting and Al to come off the bench. It takes a good coach to instill into that 6th man though how important his role will be but at the same time showing him he’ll have that extra freedom allowed to him as he’ll be the No.1 scoring option off the bench rather than the number 4/5 option on the starters.
Can coach Dunny get through to him?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
I agree with MG here
as a high school athlete (different sport but same idea) there is definitley a lot more tension when the starting lineup is up in the air then when it is usually the same. Guys like to know what there role is on the team and stick to that role they don’t want that role changed every other game. I don’t think Al is the type of player who would get upset over losing minutes to a veteran so I think he will be ok. And plus coming off the bench where he is the primary option will probably help his stats which he will like.
In Gordon we trust
I see you've bought into reactive coaching
John Wooden would never have even considered coaching that way. Ever.
That was 40 Years ago. Basketball has progressed.
John Wooden didn’t allow dunking.
How about
Phil Jackson, Larry Brown, Greg Popavich…all use set rotations.
And last I checked, they allow dunking too.
Or has the game “progressed” beyond them as well?
Pop?
Isn’t Pop out of place on that list? He started 12 different players last season, and that was not all due to injuries. And didn’t he ‘go small’ in the playoffs a couple years ago against the Mavs? I’m pretty sure he changed his starting lineup in the playoffs that year.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Oct 22, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Is that for the same reasons though?
I admit that I don’t follow the Spurs religiously but from what I do know, he used to start Parker, Finley, Bowen and Duncan every single game with Manu off the bench. But when Finley or whomever they were playing at the 2, would get hurt, then Manu would have to start.
Last season Bowen’s effectiveness had decreased dramatically and they had virtually nobody to play center. So it was mixing and matching to try to do the best with what they had.
Aren’t we talking about situational starting lineups? Dunleavy’s track record of changing his lineups to match his opponent? Pop doesn’t do that on a regular basis. I can’t say for sure what he did vs. the Mavs that year you speak of, but how many lineup changes did he have during their championship years?
So now you like reactive coaching, Steve?
Or are you just arguing to argue
Really?
How is my comment a defense of reactive coaching? I’m simply pointing out that Pop doesn’t, to my mind, belong on the list ‘lineup carved in stone coaching.’
I swear, every time I ask for some justification for some statement, or point out how the statement doesn’t fit reality, you guys accuse me of being argumentative.
All NBA coaches have a starting lineup, more or less. Guys get hurt, guys get in the doghouse, other guys start. But the situational starting lineup is clearly the exception to the rule. I don’t like it, because I think it keeps the team from developing an identity. For bad teams or middle of the pack teams, it may be a necessary evil. But clearly, if you’re the best team, you make the other team match up to you.
But Gregg Popovich doesn’t happen to be a guy who, in my experience, has a set lineup and sticks with it. Not as compared to other NBA coaches.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Oct 22, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions
The point is that there are alot of points that could be made
And you chose that one. Nothing wrong with arguing.
Do you whole heartedly believe
When I say’ that all should start 40 and be 6th man for forty, that was an example. He could be 6th man 75 games and start 7. If you are a San Antonio fan, which i am, you will notice Ginobili usually enters the game 3-5 mins in almost every game. Phil Jackson did not use a set rotation all year. Walton and Ariza went back and forth.
All I'm saying is you have crazy coaching styles like Don Nelson
out there that will play 4 sg and a center at any given time to cause mismatches. You can’t be controlled by the confines of a singular style of coaching…. You have a point with knowing your role. To a certain extent, that’s how teams win.
Well I agree that you have to be flexible
I understand your point that you shouldn’t just stick to conventional wisdom just for the sake of doing so. D’Antoni does a good job of bucking that trend with pretty good success.
But I do think teams and players need consistency. They need to know what their roles are and what’s expected of them.
As for Don Nelson, it’s a tough one. Remember how Avery Johnson got blasted by the media because he changed his starting line up to adjust to the Warriors? I can’t say he was wrong though. I can see why he did it. But I’m of the school of thought that you need to force the other team to adjust to you. If it’s not working, then yea, make a change early in the game. But I’d like to see them at least try to stick with their system.
Well I agree that you have to be flexible
I understand your point that you shouldn’t just stick to conventional wisdom just for the sake of doing so. D’Antoni does a good job of bucking that trend with pretty good success.
But I do think teams and players need consistency. They need to know what their roles are and what’s expected of them.
As for Don Nelson, it’s a tough one. Remember how Avery Johnson got blasted by the media because he changed his starting line up to adjust to the Warriors? I can’t say he was wrong though. I can see why he did it. But I’m of the school of thought that you need to force the other team to adjust to you. If it’s not working, then yea, make a change early in the game. But I’d like to see them at least try to stick with their system.
Agreed.... question...
Who do you believe should be the starting 5 and the respective bench order for the majority of the season.
Start Butler
I’m in the camp that goes with Butler. So Baron, EJ, Butler, Griffin and Kaman. You deal with Camby’s ego by blaming it on injuries. Then if Griffin blows up, nobody will argue. If he struggles, you start Camby and say he’s healthy now and that was always the plan.
The bench order should be Thornton, Camby and Telfair with DJ and Craig Smith getting some minutes. Kareem Rush gets some spot minutes too if he proves he can shoot about as well as Novak. Ricky Davis isn’t allowed to dress…ever.
I like you already
http://www.clipperscurse.com/
by ClippersCurse on Oct 22, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
vs. the Lakers
You make an interesting point about whether it would be preferable to have Thornton vs. the biggers 3s like Lebron and Artest. But I would pose this question – if one of the reasons to start Butler is his defense, does that advantage swing so far the other way against bigger 3s that suddenly Thornton becomes the better defender?
Basically, does Thornton do a better job of defending the Lebrons and the Artests than Butler does? I really don’t know and I’m really curious.
I agree that Thornton is bigger, and maybe that in and of itself causes probs for the bigger 3s. But I kind of doubt it. Butler seems like a more capable and intelligent defender, and I would imagine that would be more effective.
In the end, you can’t throw one guy at a Lebron James so really you’re just hoping to slow him down til the help gets there. The question is who can slow him down better.
As for Artest, I’d much rather see Butler forcing him to come out to the 3 pt line to guard him. That way he can’t help on D. I also think Artest is a lot more motivated guarding guys like Thornton who try to take him off the dribble and put all kinds of moves on him, as opposed to a guy who camps out at 3 and launches.
However, if they decide to put Artest on Gordon and Kobe on Baron, then bring in Thornton to punish Fisher/Brown/Farmar. He’s much better suited to take advantage of that mismatch.
Thornton's D
I’ve had a theory about Al for awhile (one that is basically impossible to prove or disprove since defense is so subjective) that he’s a better on ball defender than overall defender. In particular, the thinking goes that if Al’s BBIQ is relatively low, and he gets confused in some situations (when to help, where to rotate, etc), you get the most out of him by giving him a very specific and focused task. Like defend LeBron. Like you said, LeBron presents all kinds of problems any way, and it’s really the other four guys who have to be in perfect sync in that case – the primary defender knows more or less what he’s doing – there are some details like which way am I forcing him, am I going under or over screens, that sort of thing, but the permutations are fewer. And indeed Al did a commendable job on him last season. So I think there’s a profile (big, and primary option for the opponent on offense, which means LeBron and Carmelo and probably not too many others) where Al makes sense on defense.
It all raises the other question of whether you adjust to the other team, or try to make them adjust to you. I won’t go into that now.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Oct 22, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I can see that
It makes sense that with Al’s motor and athleticism, he’d be better on the ball.
Having said that, is he so much better that he becomes a better defender than Butler? We can’t say for sure that Butler is ineffective against bigger 3s. That’s just an assumption, albeit a reasonable one, based on his physique. Maybe he does a better job against the bigger 3s than we think.
Pre-season vs. lakers
It was a very small sample size, just a couple of possessions, but Sool looked physically overmatched by Artest on Sunday. But defensive savvy goes a long way. Cat Mobley defended Carmelo and Dirk better than anyone on the team, giving away many pounds and many inches. So you are correct, Butler might be the best choice on the bigger guys as well. But I’m dubious.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Oct 22, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Yea honestly I have no idea.
Like you said, it’s a small sample size and I haven’t seen enough of Butler specifically on bigger 3s in NOLA.
I guess we’ll find out soon enough. I have to say though, it doesn’t make me feel good if we’re getting killed by a bigger 3 to have Thornton be the only available option to bring in as the “stopper.”
I really wish GSW hadn’t matched on Buike.
i mentioned that to someone the other day...
Who did we end up signing right after? Was it Ricky Davis?
Good discussion, guys
Has Thornton’s D improved? Can Butler handle larger SFs? Should Thornton start against more dominant SFs, as the assignment is more “on-ball” and straight forward? It’s all stuff to watch for. It does concede, though (does it not?), that the starting line-up may need to be maliable…
I just want to throw in, I’m looking forward to seeing Griffin (at SF), Camby and Kaman out on the floor together. Those three together against the Lakers bigs (or others, like the Cavs) will be something to watch.
Defending Larger SFs
We’ll see Butler give it a shot, I’m sure. But this is where the effort and skill of Griffin could really shine. The other team has a 6’9" 240 guy who can run the floor and shoot, defend, rebound and do pretty much everything? Seems like that would be a good assignment for Blake Griffin.
by citizen zhiv on Oct 22, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions
vs LAL
I would want Artest to shoot as much as possible. He’s highly inefficient and also the fourth option. Start Rasual and give Artest some space. Dare him to shoot.
Also Kobe will guard our SF. PJax likes to hide him on defense to conserve energy for the other end. I think Artest will be assigned to chase EJ around.
Do you have a specific question for supac?
by Michael White on Oct 22, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
So why do you belive that Artest will cover EJ? Kobe will cover EJ and Kobe will get burned.
Artest will cover AT.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
Because
The 3 is the weak spot in the Clipper lineup, and it’s where Kobe can get the most rest on defense. So Kobe on Butler/Thornton, Artest on the ball (Biddy), Fisher to chase EJ around. At least that’s what I think PJax will/should do.
Now Dflop is gonna cover EJ? Which one is it man?
sure there is always a switch and most offensive plays try to exploit the weaker defender against the better scorer but we all know that when the game starts the players know who they will cover as the main match up.
We have seen the Shootout match up already in preseason and DFlop never covered EJ and Artest covered BG most of the time so I do not know what game you guys watched or plan on watching the 27th.?
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
Dude
It’s not that hard of a concept to understand. Artest could very well cover EJ for portions of the game. It’s a SF covering a SG. Happens all the time.
It’s not even remotely like Gasol on Baron or Farmar on Kaman.
What are you even talking about?
I like Kaman starting
I think Camby’s experience off the bench will fit in better with the low post banging of Smith. It doesn’t fit so nicely when DJ might be on the floor though.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
My starting 5
Eric Gordon – (obvious reasons)
Baron Davis-(obvious reasons)
Rasual Butler – (An inch shorter than AT, smaller, but could spread the floor and shoot 3’s)
Kaman – (Rebounds + Force in the post)
Blake Griffen – (Same as Kaman, but more advanced)
So you have Kaman at the 4 and Griffin at the 5?
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
I completley agree
I think having Camby with the second unit gives a veteran presence and could help (not saying make up, but help) with the shortcomings Al Thorton and Ricky Davis (god help us) have on defense. It’s not about giving more minutes to Blake, it’s about not having a huge drop off in the second team.
It’s funny, Butler may be in reality an inch sorter than Thornton, but he has such a presence on the floor he seems taller. At least in my view.
Second Five (which will probably really only be four knowing Dunleavy which is honestly fine)
Camby*
Telfair*
Thorton*
Rush (yep, preferable over Davis)*
Strong (sure, he’s a rhino, but he’s too small defensively, there is a reason Minn was willing to let him go)
Jordon (I just think it’s gonna be hard for him to crack time when the other three are healthy)
Davis
Yup
Camby – Sub in for Griffin or Kaman, for defensive purposes
Thornton – Sub in for Raz for scoring (since he shot better in the inside than Raz and can get rebounds).
Telfair – Quick PG, could run the floor
And so on…
I feel bad for Jordan, there are a surplus in PF and C that it may affect his development.
+1
This lineup makes the most sense, and is the most cohesive and efficient first unit. Then substitute offense/defense duos (i.e. Thornton + Camby, or Rhino + DJ). But I really doubt this is the starting lineup MDSr chooses to start the season. Instead it’ll be:
Biddy, EJ, Thornton, Camby, Kaman.
I think the Lamar / Laker situation makes this conversation easier...
Because it creates recent precindent. All MDsr has to say is…“you know..like Lamar on the Lakers.” A player can relate to that and see that it isn’t seen in as bad of a light anymore to come off the bench.
Odom-Butler-Artest-Thornton
The interesting thing about the comparison between the Lakers and the Clippers is not just Odom coming off the bench and stepping in for Bynum, but also taking a lot at how Artest is nailed in as a starter, but he might have some of the same issues on offense that Thornton has, call it a discomfort at being the 4th or 5th option. And at the same time we’re not hearing any discussion about the possibility that Odom should start and Artest should come off the bench. It’s all a testament to Odom’s temperment and versatility, and Phil’s often-obnoxioius but effective holistic coaching style.
To simplify the point, when SP was pointing out the trouble that Thornton might encounter as a fifth option on offense behind Gordon-Davis-Griffin-Kaman (or as a 4th option with Camby as a starter), I was thinking about how Artest fits into the Laker’s pecking order. Kobe-Gasol-Bynum/Odom are a steady 1-2-3. One of the ways that the Lakers beat a surprising Houston team in the playoffs was that Artest was a ballstopper, stepping up as a primary option and failing, while Ariza was moving the ball and happy to hand the 4th option spot over to the guard, Fisher, Farmar, or Brown.
Artest of course makes up for it with his defense and size and rebounding, which are very different from the Thornton side of the equation.
by citizen zhiv on Oct 22, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
It’s what I want to say except far more verbose and expansive (zhiv’s MO).
I think the Lakers beat Houston
because they were the much better team.
If not for Artest stepping up then who?
But yes I agree with everything else.

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