A Good Problem to Have - Who Starts for the Clippers? Part 2
As I mentioned last Thursday in Part 1 of this effort, other than the backcourt of Baron Davis and Eric Gordon, there are no givens in the starting lineup for the Clippers this season. The de facto starters going into training camp were Davis and Gordon, with Al Thornton, Marcus Camby and Chris Kaman up front. But two new-comers to the team, first overall pick Blake Griffin and former Hornet starter Rasual Butler, deserve serious consideration in the first unit.
Thursday we focused on the issue of Thornton versus Butler at the starting small forward, with Butler winning my endorsement (for what that's worth). Today let's tackle the big issue (the bigs issue).
From the moment the Clippers won the lottery in May, knowing who the number one pick would be and what position he played, it was obvious that the Clippers had a glut of bigs, players best suited to play power forward and/or center. When the team was able to trade away Zach Randolph, it alleviated some of that pressure - instead of having four starting-caliber players at two positions, now they had three. But it turns out, three is still greater than two, so there's still a question here.
Let's take a step back and look at whether it's actually a problem - is it, as the title of the post suggests, a good problem to have, or is it really no problem at all? Clips Nation has some experience with the issue in general, as it existed in the same form (three starters for the two big spots on the floor) from the time of the November trade for Zach Randolph last season.
On the surface, it's simple enough to say, hey, it's no problem. After all, why wouldn't you want as many quality players as possible, at every position? If you're bringing a starter-quality player off the bench, clearly that's an indication of strength, at least at that position. But the reality in most cases is a little different.
For one thing, the NBA salary cap encourages teams to get value out of their players across the board in order to be successful. In that sense, perhaps it's not the the label 'starter' or 'starting quality' but rather 'paid like a starter' that matters most here. Camby is making about $9M (depending on incentives), Kaman is above $10M, and Randolph's contract dwarfed either of theirs. So while it's great to have a high quality big coming off the bench, it's untenable to have that much salary tied up in the same positions when salary is finite.
There are also chemistry issues. Most NBA players have egos, some bigger than others. If you take three players, all of who have spent their entire careers starting, and tell one of them that he's now coming off the bench, there's a risk of hurt feelings. You can try to manage that risk, and it's certainly possible to make it work, but there's a real chance of damaging team chemistry in that situation. Just ask Rip Hamilton or Allen Iverson if you don't believe me.
On the other hand, it's certainly nice to have that quality depth around if injuries crop up. And in fact, if enough injuries occur as they did for last season's Clippers, then the problem ceases to exist altogether. Of course, it's not much of a solution - the problem of having two many players at the same spot is simply replaced by the problem of having significant players injured. And injuries are decidedly NOT a good problem to have. So while I understand the quality depth argument, and it's obvious that any team benefits from depth to help cope with injuries, the simple fact is that if enough injuries happen, it doesn't matter how good your depth is.
So overall, yes, I think having a glut of established players and one or two positions, particularly if they are highly paid and potentially attached to the idea of starting, is indeed a problem, if a relatively good problem in the overall scheme of things.
And this is where the Clippers find themselves. Chris Kaman is beginning his seventh season in the NBA, and he has started 334 out of 385 games in his NBA career, close to 87%. Marcus Camby is in his 14th season, and he has started 604 out of 757 games as an NBA player, 80%. So it's safe to say that both of those guys think of themselves as starters. That is not to say that one of them might not happily come off the bench. Camby in particular seems like the kind of guy who is a real team player, and might be perfectly happy to come off the bench, particularly at the age of 36.
Blake Griffin is obviously just a rookie, but he also happens to be the first overall draft pick, and as 'ready' a 20 year old as you're likely to see. He demonstrated that he is fully capable of starting during the pre-season. So this is the Clippers find themselves in: of Kaman, Camby and Griffin, which one comes off the bench? For the sake of argument, let's look at the pros and cons of each possibility.
Start Kaman and Camby, bring Griffin off the bench
Last month after Media Day, I wrote this:
No one said that a starting job was waiting for Blake Griffin, but no one has to say that. We know it's going to happen, and hopefully sooner rather than later.
I've actually re-thought that a little since then. To wit, it's quite intriguing to consider the possiblity of bringing Blake Griffin off the bench. Talk about a boost of energy when he enters the game. To be clear, I believe that Griffin should and will get more minutes per game than either Kaman or Camby this season - his versatility makes life much easier for MDsr, so I expect him to be on the floor a lot. But what if he gets more minutes, but doesn't happen to start?
One big advantage is that it's easy to handle with the personalities. Kaman and Camby get to start, Griffin, by all accounts a humble guy, gets to pay his dues and come off the bench his rookie season, even while playing major minutes. Heck, maybe there's even a 6th Man award in this idea. And I do like the idea of inserting him into the lineup 4 or 5 minutes in and watching the whole game change due to his presence. It would be pretty cool.
Everyone always references Manu Ginobilii when discussing superstar sixth men these days, but the simple fact is that Manu is a special case, and always will be. No other NBA player has remained a sixth man after an All Star selection while still in his prime. The 'old school' method was that the rookie would come into the league and come off the bench, and would keep doing so even long after it was clear that he should be starting. Does anyone seriously think that Cornbread Maxwell was better than McHale in 83-84? No, but McHale was still paying dues, and he came off the bench, and he won the sixth man award because of it. But eventually he became of big star, and guess what? He also became a starter. Likewise Detlef Schrempf came off the bench for years, and won a couple sixth man trophies for his efforts, but as his productivity increased, he became a starter. That's how it used to work. And we're talking about four year college players who didn't become full time NBA starters until they were 28 (McHale) and 30 (Schrempf). Griffin's 20.
So option one is to bring Griffin off the bench, and it has merit. Kaman and Camby played well together, however briefly, last season. And Griffin becomes the game-changer off the bench. Griffin also plays big minutes - he just doesn't get the first few.
Start Kaman and Griffin, bring Camby off the bench
Most of the summer, I've assumed that eventually this would be the decision. Camby is the oldest of the three, the most injury-prone, and the one not signed long term. He could be gone as early as the February trade deadline (or of course even earlier than that, I suppose. Wouldn't the team prefer to invest into a front court of the future or Kaman and Griffin the the starting lineup? Besides, Camby would benefit from the rest, both in terms of straight rest given his age, but also potentially in terms of avoiding injuries by keeping the wear and tear low.
This alignment has other perceived advantages as well. For one thing, Camby is a tweener. Starting Kaman and Griffin gives the Clippers a real center and a real powerforward, as opposed to a guy making the best of a position not necessarily suited for him. Also, Kaman is the best low post threat of the three of them, and it's hard to imagine MDst not having him on the floor to start the game so that he can play inside out from the opening tip.
Start Camby and Griffin, bring Kaman off the bench
I actually convinced myself that Kaman would come off the bench when we were going through this same debate last year with Kaman, Camby and Randolph. The logic for Kaman off the bench goes something like this: Coaches tend to like defense to start the game and offense off the bench if they have to choose just one, and MDsr is no exception (see Ross, Q). So assuming Griffin is just a given at power forward, Camby the shot blocker, Camby the former DPOY, is a logical choice to start over Kaman, who is a better scorer but arguably a worse defender. It also may be a factor that Camby's 36 year old body might be better suited to starting. When you're in your twenties, it's relatively easy to get warmed up, shoot some, stretch... and then sit down for a half hour before you actually get into the game. Camby's 36 year old body might not react well to that regimen. So there might be a practical reason for starting Camby over Kaman.
The problem with this approach is that it pre-supposes that Camby is a better defender than Kaman. In fact, he's not necessarily a better defender - he's a different defender. Kaman is solid, arguably better on the ball, and without question better against the biggest opponents (who can push the skinny Camby around). The other question is whether Griffin can provide enough post scoring. It's hard to imagine that MDsr is going to hamstring himself at the very start of the season if Griffin is not really able to get his own shot quite yet. So at this point I think this is the least likely scenario. In other words, I think Kaman's the likely to be a starter for his post scoring.
So what's going to happen?
As we discussed on Thursday, and as MDsr repeated to me on Friday, the starting lineup may in fact be a situational decision throughout the season. The bigs who start against the Suns may not be the bigs who start against the Lakers. And by the way, speaking of the Lakers, we could well see Kaman and Craig Smith on opening night, given that both Camby and Griffin are a little banged up right now,so injuries are already a factor. But the question isn't so much "Who will start Tuesday?" as it is "Who will start the bulk of the games, against the bulk of the opponents, injuries notwithstanding?"
We're going to have to wait and see on that one. But the more I think about it, the more I think it might be Griffin coming off the bench. Just a hunch.
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The Kaman Question
Nice thorough post.
I think we need to be realistic about Kaman. Despite the 7 seasons, we still don’t know from day to day if K2.0 or Mr. Flippy will show up.
Depending on matchups, Kaman starts but at the first sign of Mr. Flippy, out comes the hook and in comes Griffin or Camby.
Trading Camby
Seems like a blasphemous idea, but there are some good reasons to consider it. DJ seems to be well ahead of schedule, and then there’s playing time for Rhino. With Skinner and Novak also around, and Griffin’s flexibility at the 5, I can see the idea taking on greater currency as the trade deadline approaches.
Besides clearing away some of the glut at the 4 and 5 spots, there’s also the notion of who we might get in return. I’m sure we’d all be looking a strong wingman. If a trade came up involving Camby and RDavis for a high quality 3 and an insurance pg, then I’d want to consider it.
Since Camby is a recognized value and in the last year of his contract, he is obviously very tradable. In return, we might end up taking on significant salary commitments for the following season and beyond. I know that this might be a deal breaker for many Clip fans here, but the fact that we would be giving up cap space could help us demand even more trade value. We could end up with an outstanding player or two. My main thought here, then, is that the Clippers may want to acquire talent via a trade this year, rather than through free agency next off season.
Yes, I have mixed feeling about this. You?
It will be an ongoing situation
There are many considerations, and many things will change between now and the trade deadline. The one trade you seriously consider, regardless of the salary implications, is the one that is more or less like a free agent acquisition anyway. Will a very high profile small forward be on the block this season? You never know. I don’t think a lot of people suspected that Pau Gasol was going to be shopped at the beginning of the 07-08 season. So it depends on how the Clippers are playing, how other teams are playing, and who’s available. But remember that the Clippers have expiring deals that can add up to match basically any salary in the league. So they can be an option in almost any trade.
Having said that, there are really two more likely Camby trade scenarios. One is where a contender wants a veteran big for a playoff run. In that scenario, you’re not getting a star back – you are looking for picks and prospects on that one, and hopefully low salary commitments. The second is where a non-contender is wanting to dump a big name (with a big contract). In that case, Camby is irrelevant – he’s just an expiring contract to the team.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Oct 26, 2009 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Yea, I see what you're saying
Suppose, then, that I’m not thinking about a star. Rather, how about an established glue guy on a playoff contender that needs another center and has a glut of wing players.
On the other hand, a big name (with a big contract) would be good too, as long as it made sense chemistry- and talent-wise for us. Maybe the other team decides it wants to rebuild w/ free agency next off season. Camby could serve as a stepping stone for them, no?
You’re right, though, that anything could unfold. Maybe I’m getting ahead of things. I like to think about using Camby’s expiring contract as an extra chip. I’m also uneasy about things working out well for us in next year’s free agency. Finally, we may find that we have enough ‘stars’ as it is, and so we’d be better off finding one or two excellent ‘fits’.
In any case, I like Griffin off the bench for now.
Last year they were trying to peddle Kaman
for a number of reasons. I still think they should go that route (assuming that Griffin isn’t seriously injured).
I think that Griffin needs to tone down the athletic throw downs a bit if he wants to stay in games. He’s a power forward, not Michael Cooper. He should work on developing his shot and playing smart. High flying dunks are fun but the game is about winning, and the Clippers cannot win consistently without him on the court 30 mins a game. Just my opinion.
Reminds me of Crash in a way.
Don't trade Kaman
I was thinking along these lines earlier, but now I think it’s too risky. If we then lose Camby to free agency, or if he starts to show his age, then suddenly we’re short on centers. Wouldn’t want a good problem to turn into a bad problem. Besides, I bet Kaman will come out strong this year.
Griffin does need to tone it down some. Who’s Crash?
Gerald "Crash" Wallace
And he definitely earned the nickname! The interesting thing about Wallace is that he has tried to tone down his game at times, most notably after a very scary injury on a dunk a couple years ago in which his legs were taken out from under him. But Wallace without “Crash” was a much lesser player. He seemed to lose his jumping ability for awhile, and he admitted it took him months to lose his fear of going up in traffic.
Griffin will figure out the balance between all out recklessness and spirited hustle, but he may get knicked up once in awhile. I’ll take that as long as he can avoid serious injuries, but that’s not really in his control anyway.
Jordan and Kaman as starters
There’s a lineup that we haven’t seen very much.
But isn’t it something of a logical one for the opener? Camby hasn’t played in 10 days. He’s probably going to shoot around again and maybe practice a little today (don’t know if the Clips are practicing, or taking the day off before a 4 out of 5 stretch). He’s an iffy candidate for the starting lineup. Griffin is tweaked, and even if he can play an nice argument is made up above for all of the good things that happen off the bench.
Kaman is healthy and ready to go, and he’s a definite starter. He needs to do a better job against Bynum. Gasol is probably going to be out and Odom will start. The Clippers will see Josh Powell and Mbenga—the Lakers don’t have any extra big men, and Pau can’t miss too many games. Artest will play some PF, against Griffin or Craig Smith. Kaman on Odom is an interesting matchup.
Jordan has been starting and playing well. He holds down the middle and he can play for a few minutes and take his shot at Bynum. The same thing can happen of course if he comes off the bench, say if Kaman runs into trouble.
But if you’re going with the obvious choice, based on health and matchups and preseason effort, don’t you start Jordan and Kaman in the opener?
The thing that’s interesting about this is that it’s not on the list of possibilities for the starting lineups above. There are no DJordan options. That’s as it should be, but aren’t there some ways in which DJordan might get starts, and in fact we might be looking at one now? And what if Jordan somehow establishes himself as more explosive and productive as a starter than Kaman or Camby? I don’t think it’s going to happen, certainly not right away, but the Clippers could be headed in that direction. It won’t hurt, I don’t think, to see what happens.
The Kaman-Jordan lineup (a weird one, I know) does some odd things. It pushes Kaman outside and off the block at times. But he’s shooting the ball well and he could still score in bunches, hitting his shot. If the Clips are getting penetration from BDavis (sore foot) or Telfair, you can’t leave DJordan to slide to Kaman—he’ll be at the rim. Kaman and DJordan are athletic and they can both rebound and run the floor. With DJordan you just want him to get a few shots at the rim and some rebounds, see if the other team can match up against him, and then you move into the rotation. Camby brings good energy and rebounding and he’s a good matchup for Odom. Griffin matches up well with Lamar too, as well as with Artest. Should be fun, and I hope that both Camby and Griffin can play, but I’m not sure that either of them will start. Craig Smith is another potential starter.
I can see doing that depending on the matchup...
Is Pau cleared to play?
Jordan – Kaman could work against a Gasol – Bynum tandem, but will not work against a Bynum – Odom tandem.
by Newton Pham on Oct 26, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Not that weird
The question if Kaman is secretly a Power Forward is as old as Clipperblog. Well at least as old at post #25 there. Wow its been a long time. Quel rappel!
Subsequently, Kaman has improved his interior D but hasn’t appeard to lose his above average quickness on the perimeter for a center. But yeah, in that lineup Kaman is the 4 since you don’t want Jordan touching the ball much farther than arms length from the rim.
I’m actually looking forward to seeing if Craig Smith can do a decent job for us. I think he’s been largely overlooked ( other than kneegate) but can become our solid PF backup instead of playing a centre out of position who would get killed by any athletic PF’s
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Oct 26, 2009 5:11 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions

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