Thornton being used ineffectively

by mikey p on Oct 31, 2009 9:59 AM PDT Comment 15 comments

The forward is struggling in his role as a role player.

In his senior year at Florida State, Al Thornton led the ACC in scoring. In his rookie year with the Clippers, he demonstrated that he could score at the NBA level, oftentimes being the team's go-to-guy down the stretch.

Last year, with the additions of Baron Davis and Eric Gordon, Thornton functioned more as a role player, and though his scoring average increased (17 ppg, respectable for a second year player), he seemed to struggle. Not having the ball in his hands took him out of rhythm. We are seeing a little bit of that this year thru three games.

I'm not at practice everyday, and I don't have any coaching experience, but my Blink is telling me that Al would be much more effective as the sixth man and in a scorer's role. This is not an original idea. It has been discussed at length on this site. The irony is that it seems to fit with Dunleavy's modus operandi, based on our experience with the Ross/Maggette controversy: start the more defensive minded role player, sub in the more dynamic player for some scoring punch. Yet Thornton is the starter, and Rasul Butler is coming in off the bench. (I'm beginning to believe that the coach's MO is sheer stubbornness).

Of the two, Butler more closely resembles the small forward's from other championship teams. He plays well off the ball, can shoot it from the outside, and is committed to defense. Of the five positions, small forwards are the least often to be go-to-guys on championship teams. They are usually role players.

Thornton, on the other hand, fits the sixth man mold quite well. As a reserve, he would not have to share the ball as often with Gordon, Baron, Kaman, and, coming soon, Griffin. Were he to log most of his minutes on the floor with Telfair, Craig Smith and Camby, he would be the primary wing scorer against the opponent's second team defense. Towards the end of 2007, the Clippers were running their 4th quarter offense thru Thornton, usually on clear outs and isolation plays. And his problems on defense would be less glaring were he guarding other reserves.

I think Al is a good player with a bright future, but he needs to be used more effectively.

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HmMmMmMm......

i thought about that too. I dont think dunleavy system is working out for al. When i hear people say he shuld b the “go-2-guy”, i cringe at that thought cuz he’s not a powerhouse player but he’s young and he’s very good. He can shoot 3’s but not with the best of em. He’s a great slasher, love his air game, he’s one of many “great” players in the nba that can alter their shoot many different ways in the air while not throwing up a prayer but can actually control his movement….. and he’s still young. So, i guess my point here is i agree with you when you said he was a rookie, he was def. the go to guy but now, we have gordon, griffin (yet to play a single game), kaman 2.0 is back, butler, jordan, davis, so at times, i feel like big AL is sometimes forgotten. I think the starting line-up should be baron, gordon, butler, griffin, kaman. That 5 is legit. and al should b the scoring machine off the bench with rhino, telfair, jordan and novak or jordan and camby. ricky davis and rush should get playing time too somewhere with the bench. they earned their minutes….at least rush has so far…..as i type this, im punching the keys as i type cuz this is a playoff team in my eyes….why are we 0-3…. GRRRRRRRR…….

sorry, i think i drifted to la-la land for a bit guys but yes, i love big al but for the teams sake… (example. lakers and odom, he’s good enough to b a starter on “that” lakers team but knows his role and plays it well) he can get his points coming off the bench but he needs to realize that and not think dunleavy is picking him out of the equation cuz he thinks rasual is a better overall player. :)

by In GrIfFin We TrUsT on Oct 31, 2009 10:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Whoops.....

rasual is a better player “for that starting line-up”

o yea, i forgot to add my main point to my post… AL THORNTON SHOULD B THE GO TO GUY OFF THE BENCH. he can really spark those players. if he can prove that role, he might win back his starting job (that he hasnt lost….yet….) and become the go-to-guy. I like EJ for the go to guy but he’s 6’3. Im not trying to be mean to EJ but wat player on a playoff team/go-to-guy to close things out night in & night out. wait….nvm, i dont wanna ruin this post…. i have so much crap to say about the clips….. im going crazy over here just thinkin about it……..I LOVE THIS PLACE!!!!!!!

by In GrIfFin We TrUsT on Oct 31, 2009 10:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

AT all the way as the starting SF.

AT is not why we are 0-3 and Sool off the bench is not why either. We are playing only 3 Quarters and the game is 4. We need to clamp down in the 4th. and CMDsr. has to stop experimenting with line-ups so late in the game and just go with what works and got us the edge in the first 3 quarters. I know you need to rest players but if you see that Sool is struggling against Milsap then you got to change it up while we have a 6 point lead not after we are down by 6.

Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.

by HVYDRT007 on Oct 31, 2009 10:57 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Could an argument be made

that if Thornton didn’t play so erraticly in the first 3 quarters, we could have possibly blown up one or two of the three teams we faced and not wind up 0-3? Al was horrible against the Lakers, often causing turnovers and ill advised shooting, horrible against Sun’s because he was horrible in shooting, .. and I didn’t watch the Jazz game, but he didn’t have any better stats.

by JackduhSun on Oct 31, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

(Copy of my reply to your comment in SP's post, also applicable here)

Your steadfast support of AT is mostly on the mark, but I don’t agree with all of it. You’re right that AT has a lot of strengths and is playing hard. I haven’t checked his boards yet, but it looks like he’s rebounding better. And clearly, he’s not to blame for our losses. I also agree with the gist of your comment above, that Butler has looked out of sync— He’s had some trouble defending bigger players, and I don’t like it when he tries to create his own shot. He looks better when he plays off our starters, catching and shooting as a second or third option— I think it’s apparent, he is not the guy to keep the 2nd unit afloat.

I think this last point is what your argument has been overlooking. That is, the 2nd unit often HURTS when AT is not in there. In part, it’s Butler’s deficiencies that make him the better choice for starter. Likewise, I’d much rather have AT out there when the 2nd unit plays early in the 4th.

That doesn’t mean that Butler should be in there at game’s end. In many cases I’d rather see AT. Do you suppose that might be what you’re really arguing for?

by SilverClip on Oct 31, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

BIG AL'S not that bad......

but his problem is inconsistency….. which is funny cuz the last person who comes to mind who has the ability to b so great but will never show it off is… (drumroll please) Lamar…..Ooooooo……dom…. :) the same guy i compared thornton too. Al has the potential to b great, not just good. He’s 6’8, he’s 25 y/o, can slash, great mid-range jumper and he’s still working on his game….will he ever perform like that night in and night out…..who knows…. thats up to al and how hard he pushes himself…… sure he’s had some bad shooting nights but the clippers problem is (happens every game) take many stupid shots…. if its not baron jackin up a fade-away 3 pointers, its camby shooting a jumper from the side (not his game, his game is straight away from the rim), al takes dumb turnaround shots and kaman also has great footwork but travels at least twice a game and takes garbage percentage shots at times. but he makes it up cuz they way he’s playing now, he’s proving he’s quickly forming into kaman 2.0 again and he’s playing really good. So, i dont think thornton caused his ill-playing games so far to kill our chances, i think the “clippers” themselves have caused this. All i can do is cross my fingers and hope we find that formula to win, and when griffin comes back, we start destroying teams left n right and straight out embarrass them….(or just get out of griffin’s way and you wont b sold on a poster at the swap meet. :)

by In GrIfFin We TrUsT on Oct 31, 2009 12:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

the problem is...

Identity. I think identity is very important to a team. MDSr needs to decide who will be the future at SF.

If the answer is AT, then he needs to play him as starter and give him starter’minutes and deal with the growing pains of a young player.

If the answer is not AT, then he needs to start Butler, who I think is the better player as of now, and bring AT off the bench.

What we cannot have is indecisiveness. If we start AT but play Butler at all crucial moments, we are doing no one any favors. AT will lose his confidence and it won’t help his inconsistency. And Butler may be unhappy with his role as a bench player.

If I was MDSr, I would make it clear that AT is the starting SF (now and in future) and Butler is the backup. Therefore, I will start AT, give him starter’s minutes so that he can improve throughout the season. Now we have an identity.

Angels 2009 WS Champs

by dan73962 on Oct 31, 2009 12:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd say

The problem is our wing players are not getting the ball enough. In these last three games how much ball movement did you see around the perimeter? close to none. We have some of the best perimeter shooters on the floor yet we are not giving them open looks. Thorton, Sool, and Gordon are not getting the ball. EJ is just so god damn good that he can find a way to put up 20 every night despite the fact that our offense is horrendous. 75% of our plays now dump into the post to Kaman, who never passes out to the real shooters are on the perimeter.

IMO Thorton should start because his potential is greater than Sool’s and Rasual has been around long enough to where he won’t have a problem coming off the bench. Dan73962 is right, Al needs the confidence. When Al is confident he looks like an all-star player. Al’s best game is taking mid-range jumpshots over his defender, I’ve seen him do it time and time again. But he’s not going to give us that element unless he’s confident within the system.

by ChrisPaulFTW on Oct 31, 2009 2:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

It's hard to get him the ball....

With Baron, Gordon, and Kaman on the floor at the same time. He’d be better coming off the bench with more freedom to maneuver.

by Hough on Oct 31, 2009 3:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

True

So the essential question is whether or not we should be focusing on the present or the future. If the Clippers seriously want to make the playoffs this year, and that’s the main goal, then start Rasual Butler at SF and bring Al off the bench. But if the team is primarily in the rebuilding mode, then lets create an identity as dan73962 mentioned previously and let the playoff chips land where they may.

"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle

by Cliptomaniac on Nov 1, 2009 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

forget the playoffs...

I just want the Clippers to win.

Whatever makes them win.

I’m tired of “rebuilding”…actually it’s less “REbuilding” then it is “building”…for 20 years.

by Newtybar on Nov 1, 2009 8:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Theres never “rebuidling,” Clippers were never “built.” More like doing enough to be a functional team(both the team and the management) just to make money.

http://www.clipperscurse.com/

by ClippersCurse on Nov 2, 2009 7:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Al off the bench makes perfect sense for this team

Its a roll he will thrive in. He will be the number one option on the floor.

by big0lbad on Nov 1, 2009 9:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

5 game rule

Good to see you getting after it Mikey P, and I agree with everything you say here. I don’t mind Dunleavy starting Al T., it was a worthy experiment, especially with Griffin injured, but it’s not working. One more game, tonight at Minnesota, at most, and then Butler has to go into the starting lineup.

One big problem with CMDSr is that he doesn’t subscribe to the 5 game rule. Instead he’s stubborn, and he keeps working at things that often don’t work, and he doesn’t try new stuff or innovative stuff. He has already made 5 or 6 very questionable, critical rotation moves in just 4 games. I would break them down, but it’s too depressing. Let’s just leave it at his own admission: he’s not a good coach when his players are injured. Blake Griffin was injured, and he has been a poor coach through 4 tough games. He does have a chance to turn things around and gain some momentum. The Thornton-Butler situation will be a good one to watch to see if he makes adjustments.

Thornton is a good player, but he needs to be used correctly, and right now he looks horrible and often out of sorts.

by citizen zhiv on Nov 2, 2009 11:46 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'm not trying to defend CMDsr, but

it might be a good thing that Thornton is getting the start over Butler (for the majority of the season…Butler should get the start on some circumstances or at times to threaten Thornton’s job ).

If you look at it at an age and contract way, Thornton will be a Clipper for a long time while Butler may only be this year (or a few more if resigned). So in a sense Thornton is our starting SF of the future.

Similar to how another FanPost said that although EJ may not have grown enough yet to take the big shots, putting him in those positions now may lead to benefits in the near future. So having Thornton “get it” with the unit that will for sure be here for a long time (Kaman, Griffin, Gordon, Baron) might be what is best for later rather than giving him the main role with the bench (of expiring contracts + 1 year Bassy).

I think Clippers are expected to do better this year….but it shouldnt be too hard to improve on 19 wins. Griffin winning ROY and barely missing the playoffs and we have a good/great/better season. If we barely missing the playoffs is because of Thornton still learning or EJ missing clutch game winners, then so be it. Next year they should know better and the team will be at their best.

If next year (or late late in this season) Thornton is still the same or worse…then we should revisit the bench Thornton idea. For now give him a chance to fall and pick himself back up.

by KidJustin on Nov 2, 2009 1:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs