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Kaman and Gordon and the Ballot - Some Reactions

He's the best center in the conference, but he's not on the All Star ballot

More photos » Danny Moloshok - AP

He's the best center in the conference, but he's not on the All Star ballot

Of course we're not the only ones who dissected the All Star Game ballot yesterday.  It's interesting to see what other people had to say about it after it came out.

J.E. Skeets on Ball Don't Lie singled out the most obvious snub, the center who was inexplicably left off despite a stellar early season performance, while his own teammate made the ballot at the same position.  That's right, Skeets is most upset about Joakim Noah of the Bulls, averaging 11 points and 11 rebounds at the time.  Nary a mention of Chris Kaman, averaging 22 points and 10 rebounds.  The commenters at BDL stepped up and let him know that he missed the boat on that one.

Chris Tomasson of Fanhouse was most surprised to see power forward Amare Stoudemire listed at Center, and assumes that Stat will be the runaway starter at the position.  I myself was curious where Amare would end up on the ballot, and he certainly has the name recognition and reputation to win the popular vote.  However, I'm not convinced that the Lakers association won't still carry Andrew Bynum to the top spot.  Tomasson rightly highlights the snubs of Kaman and Eric Gordon, and like me is more surprised at Gordon's absence, given the nature of the way the ballot is constructed.

Star-divide

Most interesting of all is the analysis from Marc Stein, one of the six journalists on the panel that created the ballot along with "Mike Breen (ABC/ESPN play-by-play man), Eddie Sefko (Dallas Morning News), Doug Smith (Toronto Star and president of the Professional Basketball Writers Association), Marc Spears (Yahoo! Sports) and Ian Thomsen (Sports Illustrated)".  As someone who was there, Stein is able to provide valuable insight into the process.  He starts with a couple of facts that we had already surmised - each team must have at least three players on the ballot, and the ballot was finalized in early October, long before the season started, for printing purposes.  While the lead time constraint remains an anachronism in a process dominated by electronic voting, it's constraint nonetheless.

Stein recognizes that Kaman and Gordon are major omissions, dedicating two of his first three bullets to the two Clippers.  Of Kaman:

The biggest omission in the West has to be Clippers center Chris Kaman, whose spot essentially went to teammate Marcus Camby. The consensus here was that the Clips, coming off a 19-win season, didn't merit two centers in a 12-man category. Camby's veteran status nudged him ahead of Kaman, who has since reeled off a streak of six 20-point games that ended Monday.

Of course, it's not Marcus Camby that is taking Kaman's spot.  In fact, if you consider them both centers, Kaman and Camby are clearly in the top five of Western Conference C's statistically so far.  So the problem isn't Camby - it's really McDyess.  Spencer Hawes is there because of the three minimum for Sacramento.  McDyess is a 35 year old who hasn't averaged in double figures since he was 26.  The idea that McDyess would deserve starting center votes is ludicrous.

Stein points out, as I did yesterday, that none of these omissions amount to much, since none of these players would win the vote even if they were on the ballot.  He worries more about the exiled Allen Iverson being on the ballot, since his name recognition conceivably could move the needle.  Taking a step back however, it's truly sad that we're being so cavalier about Kaman's absence.  While it's obviously early, the simple fact is that Chris Kaman has the skills and the production to deserve to start in the All Star Game in the west - as of this moment in time, he clearly should be the starter.  Dismissing his absence as a non-issue because everyone knows he wouldn't win the vote, regardless of the basketball reality, is a sad commentary on this entire farce of a process.

Of Gordon Stein says:

Regular Clips-watchers are also undoubtedly wondering why Al Thornton is on the ballot and Eric Gordon is not. It was a positional issue. Forward slots were harder to fill in the West, creating an opening for Thornton.

This I get.  There are a lot of great guards in the West.  And Ramon Sessions is taking up a spot as one of Minny's three.  But if it's me, I leave off the injured Tracy McGrady, and I would certainly have Gordon on the ballot before Leandro Barbosa.  To suggest that Eric Gordon is not among the top 24 guards, even in the stacked Western Conference, is insulting.  (Interestingly, this bullet provides an easy solution to the Kaman problem, not the Gordon one.  List Camby as a forward, Kaman as a center, omit Thornton.)

This all raises a different issue.  Teams like the Timberwolves and Kings and Nets and Knicks and Bucks have marginal players on the ballot (Sessions, Spencer Hawes, Courtney Lee, Chris Duhon, Hakim Warrick) because there is so little talent on the roster that someone has to be listed to meet the minimum requirements.  But the Clippers won fewer games last season than most of those teams, with a roster chock full of seemingly deserving names.  Stein admits that the Clippers' 19 win season kept Kaman off the ballot - but the shame of the situation is that the team has been (and may continue to be) so bad.  Looking at the rosters, we all know why Minnesota and New Jersey and New York are bad.  We can see that Sacramento should be terrible, and yet they are now at .500.  These Clippers have plenty of talent, as evidenced by the All Star ballot controversy.  So why aren't they any good?

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FIRE DUNLEAVY !

lol ! nah im kidding, but not really.

by andrewexd on Nov 11, 2009 10:42 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

After the Loss to NOH.

the Mob at Star Plaza was Crazy with the “Fire Dumleavy” Chant. If MDSr. would of walked by he would of probably got Beat Down and torn Limb from Limb.

If any evidence arises to point at him as being responsible for EJ and Kaman being snubbed on the All-Star Ballot, that Mob will hunt him down. I would be Terrified for him and recommend Exile or Federal Protection.

Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.

by HVYDRT007 on Nov 11, 2009 11:13 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Just to nip the misinformation in the bud...

The coach has nothing to do with the All Star Ballot. It wouldn’t make sense at any rate, for a coach not to promote his own guys. But he has no say in the matter. None.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 11, 2009 11:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

then how do you explain...

Spencer Hawes—- really!

by ChrisS.Oaks on Nov 11, 2009 12:04 PM PST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, Spencer Hawes. Come on Really, Really?

Is it April First?

Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.

by HVYDRT007 on Nov 11, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hawes

Haven’t we explained Hawes? Sacto had to have 3 players on the roster. It’s a rule. Those three were Kevin Martin, Jason Thompson and Spencer Hawes. No rookies other than Griffin were on there, so that explains Evans. Would you prefer Udrih or Nocioni?

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 11, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My comments are in Jest and I am a Dunleavy Fan but patience is wearing very thin.......Very Thin.

But that Mob was pretty fierce on Monday though.

Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.

by HVYDRT007 on Nov 11, 2009 11:44 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I remember you being pretty optimistic before the season started

If HVYDR is wearing down, then nearly every Clip fan may be be about ready to form a lynch mob.

by Newtybar on Nov 11, 2009 12:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I saw the mob on Prime Ticket

it looked like a bunch of parolees looking to get some aire time.

by big0lbad on Nov 11, 2009 2:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

its not that

its the way we lost. it seems our team was uninspired, almost exactly like last year just because one guy albeit one important guy was missing(gordon). we were supposed to have “depth” able to sustain an injury to an impact player. If anything after gordon’s injury we believed that we could either win or at least stay close, instead we got blown out.

by Final692 on Nov 11, 2009 12:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Careful

if you say it was management your fanhood might be questioned.

by Jax on Nov 11, 2009 1:06 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

MAN

these ppl just are finding excuses to put crappy clippers on the ballot and good ones off of it. WTF

by ClipperMyth on Nov 11, 2009 1:09 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Leaving Eric Gordon and Chris Kaman off the ballot just shows us

how the NBA All-Star game is a popularity contest between “NBA veterans”. There is no doubt in my mind that if a player has a fan base, like Gordon and Kaman, that they should be on the ballot. My guess is Kaman would end up being voted the third center behind Amare and Bynum. Gordon would have been in the middle of the pack of the guards but not at the bottom. He would have got more votes then Sessions, Barbosa, Martin, Miller, Mayo, Westbrook, and even Baron Davis.

by NBAFAN8 on Nov 11, 2009 1:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Oh come on

It’s a bit disingenuous to talk about Kaman and EJ having a “fan base.” What kind o fan base is that? Before this season, Clippers fans couldn’t stand Kaman and routinely called for him to be traded. Hardcore Clips fans like Jax want to trade him for cap space. He’s hardly been one of the more popular players on this team.

And EJ is great, and Clips fans love him, but nobody else does. No way in hell he would have gotten more votes than Mayo and Westbook. You’re clearly out of touch. Those two guys get way more hype and attention than EJ.

The bottom line is that yes, Clippers were disrespected. But what else is new? It’s a 19 win team. Tell you what, win some freaking games on a consistent basis and the disrespect will change.

The national disrespect and ridicule annoys me too, but it’s kinda silly for fans of a team that won 19 games and is currently 3-5 to cry out. The freaking Kings are .500 for cryin out loud.

by madglove on Nov 11, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree

While all three of the Kings on the roster are not exactly high flyers, it doesn’t matter what whether Kaman is on the ballot or not, he’s not going to get voted in. Yes, most hardcore Clips fans wanted him gone this offseason. His popularity before the last 8 games was equal to that of Ricky Davis. For all obvious purposes, if he continues at a 20pt10rb pace and the CLips have a .450 record or better, then he will be an All-star via Coaches vote or injury substitute. If the Clips continue their losing ways, we can all forget it.

EJ is not an All-star yet at this point, especially now with the groin injury. The guard position out west is very, very deep, there’s no way he can an allstar even if he was healthy the whole time.

This is going to be my team, and we're going to rise together.
-Clipper Darrell

by oasisman on Nov 11, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Its true

Its a direct hit at the current crop of insider “experts’” talents for prediction. Now if they had asked a stats guy…

by John R on Nov 11, 2009 5:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

EJ has more love then you think

I am part numerous websites on the web and all of them deal with sports, mainly basketball. Eric Gordon is regarded as the next big star in the NBA. I can equate it to the value of their basketball cards. Eric Gordon and O.J. Mayo sell for more than Westbrook. Eric Gordon in many sets sells higher than OJ. If you look at their games they play the same position, but are very much different players. Gordon is much more effecient. Westbrook plays in a very small market. He has a very small fan base. Now, if the Thunder continue to get better the fan base will build, but not many Super Sonics fans made that crossover to Thunder fans. And Oklahoma has very little of a media market beyond the Sooniers. Gordon would get more votes than both of these players, but we will never know. Not until next year that is.

by NBAFAN8 on Nov 11, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry you're in denial

Hey we’re all Clips fans, I get it. But you’re in denial. Thanks for the lesson on basketball cards, but the value of basketball cards has far more to do with availability than popularity. If there’s one card in the world of a fairly popular player and 50 cards of the most popular player in the world, that one card will be worth more.

And you really don’t need to be talking about how efficient EJ is. I’m not arguing who the better player is. I’m a big fan of EJ’s since he was in Indiana.

All we need to do is look back at the All-Rookie team. Westbrook and Mayo were both first team selections and EJ wasn’t. And it certainly wasn’t because they were better players. Nor were their teams very good.

The reality is that both of those players have more media hype, more coverage and are easily more popular.

by madglove on Nov 11, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is a continuing trend...

In which EJ is overtly overlooked in favor of Mayo and Westbrook. I find this infuriating and ludicrous. Mayo is mentioned only because of his time at USC (he’s a freaking chucker!) and Westbrook because of his proximity to Durant.

I continue to agree %100 with Steve. The only way to get these idiots and media whores (I’m looking squarely at Jon Barry) to pay attention is to win games!

by Gordon for President on Nov 11, 2009 2:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Just wait until Blake returns and starts throwing down monster dunks.

The Clippers will be a sports center highlight regular and then I think we will get the fan base and repsect we deserve. Not to mention competiting for a playoff position.

by big0lbad on Nov 11, 2009 2:51 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

probably

because of all the losing seasons weve had to put up with as Clipper fans…and we are still able to keep our optimism haha

by JJClipperfan on Nov 11, 2009 4:13 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Another sad thought

Kaman would probably be on the ballot if he still had long hair.

by Zer0 on Nov 11, 2009 4:57 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Hollinger on Kaman

Nobody saw this one coming. Kaman won Western Conference Player of the Week honors while confidently stroking in mid-range jumpers to complement his already solid post presence. Healthy for the first time in eons and showcased in a Los Angeles Clipper offense that’s unexpectedly without Blake Griffin, Kaman is shooting 57.3 percent from the floor and averaging 22.3 points per 40 minutes.

His emergence caught All-Star ballot creators off balance too, as he was left off the league’s list of 12 Western Conference centers.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-091111

by Michael White on Nov 11, 2009 5:31 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

"Nobody saw this one coming"

Untrue, he is merely projecting that. The metic he created has always undervalued Kaman because it over punished turnovers versus missed shots.

It was a completely boneheaded move to leave him off no matter when the ballot was created. Now that he is not injured a smart observer would have expected him to return to 06-07 form, which is more than enough to deserve at least placement on the ballot.

It shouldn’t require his current production merely to consider him worthy. His past performance, when healthy, is more than enough to qualify him.

by John R on Nov 11, 2009 5:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

All true

His 06-07 performance was worthy of all star consideration itself. As for the injuries, he’s still young and none of the injuries have been the type one would expect to diminish his effectiveness. So the logical assumption should have been that if healthy, he clearly belonged on the ballot.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 11, 2009 6:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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