Oklahoma City 83 - Clippers 79 - This is How Seasons Are Lost
by Steve Perrin on Nov 11, 2009 11:41 PM PST
in Game Recaps
339 comments
I'm pretty much speechless. Despite not playing particularly well, the Clippers built a nine point lead midway through the third period against a Thunder team that frankly didn't look very good. But from that 65-56 lead with a little more than 4 minutes to go in the third, the Clippers only scored 14 more points and lost 83-79.
I know some of you are indignant about the coach, and you know, I want to be too. After all, there are only so many options an organization has in mid-season. It's pretty hard to swap out the entire team. So people yell and scream for the coach to be fired.
But I'm hard-pressed to know what the guy did wrong in this game. Was he the one missing 16 fourth quarter shots while making only 3? Was he the one throwing passes directly out of bounds or directly to the opponent on key fourth quarter possessions? Was he the one missing layups? Maybe there were plays where the offense wasn't as sharp as it should have been, and maybe you can hang that on the coach for not preparing them. But when the team comes down the court, and runs a play, and gets a layup for their best player - and he misses the layup, I don't know how that's the coach's fault.
Nonetheless, there is something very wrong with this team. They seem congenitally incapable of succeeding. Oklahoma City was pretty much terrible in this game. Aside from Kevin Durant, who scored 30 points on 12 for 20 shooting, none of the main guns for the Thunder had a good game, and Russell Westbrook had a full on nightmare, going 1 for 11 before taking a seat for the final 16 minutes. (Come to think of it, the Clippers took their nine point lead minutes after Westbrook left the game and then the wheels came off. So apparently Kevin Ollie was the key for the Thunder.)
But the Clippers were unable of taking advantage of the fact that the Thunder were mostly ineffective. As I watched Chris Kaman, in vintage Mr. Flippy form, miss several easy third quarter chances, I thought to myself that those missed points were going to come back to haunt the team. When they built the nine point lead anyway, I thought that just maybe they'd dodged the bullet. In the end, the blown opportunities in the third quarter didn't matter much - because Kaman blew even more chances in the fourth. He had every opportunity to make up for his earlier miscues. I have him at five misses in the fourth quarter alone, all of them right at the cup.
In the end he finished with 20 points and 11 rebounds, so lucky for him, his personal numbers didn't suffer much. But don't be fouled. This was a game to go for 30 and 15. With Eric Gordon out, his team needed him to put up big numbers. He took 26 shots - a career high - in order to get those 20 points, making only 9 of them, which is less than 40%. As good as he's been this season, he was terrible tonight.
The Clippers held the Thunder to only 17 fourth quarter points, a terrific defensive performance when it counted. So how exactly does a team take a three point lead into the fourth quarter, and hold the opponent to 17 points, and still lose? By only scoring 10. Amazingly, half of the 10 points the Clippers managed to score in the period were gifts from the Thunder. Serge Ibaka was called for a goal tend on a Kaman layup that probably wasn't going in based on the rest of the results in the quarter, and Al Thornton was fouled shooting a three that wasn't going in. So the Clippers were lucky to make it to double digits.
When Thornton made his three free throws to tie the game at 79 in the final 90 seconds, it felt like it should be the Clippers game. Let me rephrase that. In a normal NBA universe, if a team struggles that badly, but manages to get back into a tie, they usually have a great chance - particularly a veteran team playing at home against a young team. If we were talking about any team other than the Clippers, you would fully expect them to close out the win. But the Clippers can't close an automatic door at this point. They got the stop they needed with the score tied, and came down with a chance to regain the lead. What shot did the end up with? A Rasual Butler three. Yes, Butler has hit a couple of big ones in his brief Clippers career, but after going 2 for 8 tonight, he's now at 12 for 41 on the season, which is under 30%. On the next possession, now down two with 35 seconds left, the stellar defense of Nenad Krstic (that was sarcasm) forced Kaman to dribble behind the basket, jump in the air, and throw the ball to Kevin Ollie.
Now down two with about a three seconds difference between the game clock and the shot clock, the Clippers still had a chance. They decided to eschew the foul and let the Thunder run down the clock, trusting that they'd get the stop. They did - but they forgot that they also needed to get the rebound. Game over.
There were so many terrible plays in the fourth quarter, it's hard to remember them all, and yet I wish I could forget them. Marcus Camby getting picked clean playing 5 on 3 after two OKC players had collided and fallen down. Camby throwing a pass to Kaman that went straight out of bounds. Kaman catching a high-low pass from Camby and missing the lay up (that one happened twice). DeAndre Jordan missing a free throw by two feet. And of course Kaman's last turnover.
This is how seasons are lost citizens. I can feel the downward spiral starting already.
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Very dissapointed
A heartbreaking loss. Great writeup Steve, losses like this are so, so tough. With EJ out, the Clips just seem very thin at guard….Butler isn’t really a guard, Baron played several minutes as SG. Butler is a great spot-up shooter, but he can’t exactly break down defenses. I don’t know if he feels pressured to score or something, but these last two EJ-less games, he has shot the ball way too much.
Kaman was very disappointing throughout…and both MDSr and Baron went to him a little too much.
This is going to be my team, and we're going to rise together.
-Clipper Darrell
Butler...
People keep ssying what a great shooter Butler is, well, so far this season I haven’t seen it. In fact, at this point I’d rather see Baron shoot the they then Butler – UGH! I felt like thorwing the remote at the TV last night! Come Clips, we are better than this. How can Kaman play so well and then miss all those gimmes, UNBELIEVABLE!
When we win the NBA Championship, it will be that much sweeter!
by danobaseball on Nov 12, 2009 9:57 AM PST up reply actions
Even Telfair has been a better shooter this year than Butler
On the team, the only players with a lower TSP (of players who actually play) was Al Thornton.
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 10:02 AM PST up reply actions
Gotta love our small forwards
At least Al has a partner in crime now…
Free Ricky Davis.
Yes I’m serious. Or you could go the other route and give Mardy Collins more minutes, though that makes less sense with no EJ on the floor (since Kaman would be the only competent scorer left on the floor.)
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 10:05 AM PST up reply actions
You're screwed anyway you slice it
Just have to hope Sool breaks out of the shooting slump, and Al can build on last night’s performance.
One would have thought
that the game vs New Orleans was worse.
This was just a bitter game. We’ll bounce back.
I am depressed
Why does my mood have to depend on whether the Clippers win or lose
I Remember...
Many, many times walking out of the old Sports Arena shaking my head, why, why, do I do this to myself? Why couldn’t I have taken the easy route like everyone else and been a Laker fan? Why? Why?
Don’t worry Clipper hopefulls, I’m only frustrated (I know, shocking), but I’m not going anywhere, I’m in this for life. See my quote.
When we win the NBA Championship, it will be that much sweeter!
by danobaseball on Nov 12, 2009 10:01 AM PST up reply actions
Turns out Kaman was sick...
Has a viral infection of some sort – not that that is a total excuse. He still needs to perform, but it might explain why Mr. Flippy reared his ugly head even in the midst of a 20 point performance.
by The Only Team That Matters on Nov 12, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
I was at the game and...
it was so nice to see how we got the whole stadium cheering for a hopeful team and watching Al hitting the three free throws until CHRIS KAMAN just GAVE THE BALL back to OKC.
I’m really questioning Kaman’s basketball IQ now. There were plenty of possessions when Kaman had NO CLUE on what to do. When he couldn’t get where he wanted the ball or his move wouldn’t work, he’d just freeze, and toss up a brick.
Should we really trade Kaman afterall? Maybe being player of the week was just a bait to get himself traded.
Clippers 09-10. Prepare for a revolution.
kaman has been the star in this early season
Sorry, you talk about trading Kaman now when this was the first game this whole season he’s shot less than 50%? Yeah, he put up a stinker tonight but at 9-26 he still shot better than Baron & Rasual did combined tonight (8-28). Baron & Butler have needed to step up with Gordon out but neither has even learned how to crawl yet. If you’re going to point fingers at players, there’s your targets.
No, he's not question if Kamn is good or not
he’s questioning his IQ on the game. IQ is very important. It defines whether a person can go down the wire and execution rather than choke. It also means if a person is capable of knowing where to go when needed, etc etc etc.
I agree with iankobe that Kaman seems to lack a bit of IQ. If a GREAT trade comes up, i’d take it. If not, I’d prefer to just hang low and see how Kaman progresses.
Thanks for backing me up
ChrisD: Hands down. Kaman’s been playing EXTREMELY well early this season. I’ve been watching him this whole season and no doubt that Chris has talents. Heck, I was chanting MVP for him earlier this game!
But what I was really pointing out is what JackduhSun was talking about. Basketball IQ. We ALL know that Kaman is NOT known for his decision making. Let me point it out again: If Kaman doesn’t get into his position or get his shot off, he’d either: Toss it over one hand to another teammate (usually a bad pass, we saw it all last season), or force the shot. The guy just isn’t that quick in thinking. (I THINK)
I’m not saying I’m any better than Chris, but If I was him, at the position where I was “forced” to dribble behind the basket and get stuck, (down by two, 35 seconds left 4th quarter) I’d either try to bounce the ball off Nenad’s foot (think of Lamar Odom) and try for another inbound pass or force the shot (what else can you do?!), instead of throwing it right into Kevin Ollie’s hands.
Again, if we can somehow trade him for another center that has a better IQ, I’d do it.
Clippers 09-10. Prepare for a revolution.
Yes, Kaman has a low IQ
but a lot of the clipper player do, too. If you’re holding that Kaman is the #1 or #2 option on a team, we have problems. He’s more of a #3 guy on the team. A very capable player at the Center position.
Mr. Flippy is back
Coach Dunleavy has stopped hounding Kaman to only dribble once, then either shoot or pass. That is where his rhythm was when he started the season. He was kickin butt when he did that. But with his great performance in career games, he forgot the mantra……. “Dribble Once, Shoot or Pass”…… say it again ….. “Dribble Once, Shoot or Pass” ……. everybody now … “Dribble Once, Shoot or Pass”.
Thornton, stop taking shots that only Kobe can make.
Starters need to rest more, I know Kaman & Baron came into camp in great shape, but they need more rest.
GM Dunleavy should know what to do with a coach who says he can’t win with an injured team and goes out and proves it.
I’m bummed!!!!!
Currently in the season
Kaman is our #1 option. Blake Griffin is out, Eric Gordon is out, and Baron isn’t excellent basketball. The only offense that seems capable of putting in the basket a good amount of the time seems to be Chris Kaman.
Btw, Eric Gordon is probably not even our #1 guy option on our team. Who is our first option anyways?
Where Dunleavy Erred, and Kaman 1.75
In my opinion, was giving Mardy Collins first playing time at a crucial point in the game where the momentum was shifting, and DeAndre Jordan was out there at the same time. Would have liked to have seen Novak out there when we clearly needed shots to go in the basket in a desperate way.
Overall you have to put this loss on Kaman. He’s been our horse, and he just made some of his worst plays at the worst possible times. Those two one on one isolation sets he had against Krstic at the end of the game were moments he should have shined, but he didn’t have the confidence to make a play in either case. Very disappointing indeed.
Why
MDsr insist on giving the ball to Kaman for him to create his shot when the game is on the line, is beyond …..We have a very good point guard who is supposed to make things happen at the last minute. But what happened instead? The ball is dished to Kaman and history repeated itself.
Everyone has to take blame
It’s obviously not just the coach’s fault. Like Steve said, he wasn’t the one out there throwing passes out of bounds and missing wide open layups. But it’s also not just the players’ faults. There were some very questionable plays and decisions in that game.
People want to blame Kaman, and yes he choked, but since when is Kaman our clutch scorer? The guy is our work horse, but has he ever hit a game winner? It’s not enough that he’s putting up huge numbers and playing better than he ever has? Now he suddenly has to develop a clutch mentality? That’s asking A LOT from Kaman. The guy has improved, he hasn’t morphed into Hakeem.
My perspective is very simple – does the coach get the most out of his players? Nobody can possibly say yes. And like Steve said above, it’s obviously much easier to change coaches than players. PLUS, we’ve already changed countless players. It’s not like this is the same team Dun has had for 7 years. He’s orchestrated quite a few personnel changes and that’s resulted in all of 1 playoff run. It’s not like we have Phil Jackson here. Dun has done nothing to deserve the benefit of the doubt like he gets from some fans around here. People talk about how he’s gotten Sterling to open up his wallet. Great! And that’s resulted in more of the same lottery performances on the court.
It’s an absolute no brainer to fire the coach. Any other team in the league not named Golden State would have made a change by now.
Is it all Dunleay’s fault? Absolutely not. But what exactly are people scared of in changing coaches? Worried we won’t get to see more of wonderful performances like the last two games? Worried you’ll miss out on future 19 win seasons? What exactly does Dun do as coach that almost anybody else can’t do?
I can roll the ball out there and sit on my bottom and coach a team to 19 wins.
by madglove on Nov 12, 2009 12:58 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Very well said.
I find myself agreeing with just about everything you comment on over here at ClipsNation. You make some great points here.
+1
i guarantee if we had a better coach, we’d be getting a lot more out of this team.
it seems like the team expects themselves to lose, cause they’re the clippers. in my opinion, a coach should break that mentality to get them to play better.
like you said though, he can’t make those baskets for them, but he can build up their confidence, and then maybe we would cut down on those mistakes.
we need that preseason swagger back
by baron davis' beard on Nov 12, 2009 5:36 AM PST up reply actions
I don't think we'd get a lot more out of this team
w/ a new coach. However, I do agree a coaching change needs to made. IF the players continue to lose then it was the players who are main factor in our losing.
It’s a joke.
He’s saying that Elton Brand and Corey Maggette had their best years as players whilst playing for Dunleavy.
It’s not an actual quote.
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 11:31 AM PST up reply actions
Maggette missed most of that season
But I guess facts won’t matter much for those who accept the twisted logic of blaming MDSr for all defeats and giving him no credit in victory.
Its all Dunleavy’s fault. Unless they win.
More like: Maggette never listened to Dunleavy anyways
by Polish Rifle on Nov 12, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions
Is anything ever MDSr's fault?
Don’t you think that another coach could produce more wins?
Corey and Elton are also confused
by John R’s point since the team is sub .400 during MDSr’s reign.
Question for Dunleavy.
As GM when do you replace a coach?
I would love Steve, Eric or Bill to get Dunleavy to answer the question. You can’t be a good GM and a bad coach at the same time. I would love to hear Dunleavy explain when he would need to start looking for a new Head Coach.
Bill?
Bill Simmons? Yeah, that ain’t happening. It’s a great question. I have to say I don’t think the time is right just yet, but maybe I’m just being chicken.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 12, 2009 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
LOL
Yeah, I would love to read the right up from BS after the question was asked.
To be honest it’s a fair question for a GM, and would be really interesting to hear the answer.
Sterling
should demand MDsr’s resgination as a coach! Let John L. do the coaching. The team is not responding to MDsr’s coaching. Now they are back to walking the ball and their half court game. Everybody is being lulled to sleep by the pacing of their game. You can see the players lining up and getting bored because there is no freedom for them to move and play the game that they are capable of playing. They have to follow patterns after patterns of play that make them move mechanically rather than freely.
Are they not NBA players whose skill are beyond the fundamentals? Guide the players to follow the pattern of plays by letting them use their skills to express their talents to the fullest. Rigidity kills the artist!
10 points is pathetic...
This team is doomed.. I swear, someone pays the Clippers to suck.. There has to be a league team bonus that the Clippers get for losing.. At least that’s what they make it look like.. 10 POINTS?!?!? Come on!!!!!!!!!!
'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!
Steve stop it
When you burn not your starters in the third quarter it deosn’t allow for you to bring them in the fourth. Dunleavy’s management was blinding he choked so hard in the third as if he forgot to coach. How in the hell do you think the Clips lost the nine point lead, the starters were wearing down and based off pure momentum they got it back to five. There is no way Dunleavy does not take majority blame for this when the bench was proactive you give them momentum while it’s at it’s peak IN THE SAME QUARTER. I was yeliing to high hell give the starters some rest even if the bench losses the lead you warrant bringing the starters back in the fourth, this is not a young squad right now with age (Baron Davis and Marcus Camby) and potential injury prone players (Al Thornton and Chris Kaman) you need to give them a suitable blow before it’s time to close out. No way I’m not going to let anyone even try to bring up the weak logic of “what did Dunleavy do wrong” it’s not even up for debate after the game I just saw. The NO loss was on players like Thornton and Camby not showing a huger this was a pure collapse of coaching management.
10 points in 4th quarter, at HOME, against Oklahoma City Thunder!!
I don’t know how that’s NOT the coach’s fault.
After all these years of losing I can´t believe there´s people still defending this mediocre coach. All you have to do is look at other teams and see how they keep winning without their top players. That will tell you something about coaching.
Dunleavy is plain indefensible. The November schedule was a laugh, so what exactly does he need to pull out a win against the likes of NOH and OKC, teams that get kicked in every NBA arena?
Oh, and 3 wins came to bottom 3 in Western conference. That´s the best we can get from the coach.
maybe we're playing down to our competition's level
I’m just kidding.
Where was the foul?
Steve, I’ll concede that Dunleavy didn’t miss wide open shots. However, his decision to not foul was one of the most idiotic decisions I’ve seen in a long time. If you foul, that gives you time to draw up plays (horrible Dunleavy plays, but plays nonetheless) and keep the game alive. Once the decision was made to not foul, here was the best case scenario: OKC shoots and misses with 5 seconds left in the game, Clips get the rebound and call timeout. Does anyone have any faith that this team could create a good look in just 3-4 seconds. ABSOLUTELY NOT! It was also idiotic because the Clips are an atrocious rebounding team, so there was a strong possibility we wouldn’t get the rebound. Hey, what do you know? We didn’t get the rebound and the game was over. Relatedly, Steve, as a long time reader of Clips Nation it seems that with your increased access you’re becoming less critical of Dunleavy, and that’s a shame. I’m not saying you have to slander the guy, but he deserves more criticism than you’ve given him so far this season.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 6:45 AM PST reply actions
Most people concurred with not fouling at the time...
In hindsight, it looks like a bad call.
I think the bad call was taking Al Thornton out, lost a potential rebounder and I think he was playing good defense. Poor player management as well because this also seemed to make him really upset.
Who agreed it was smart to not foul?
Ralph and Mike were calling for the foul and the NBATV guys were calling for the foul, one of whom was Eric Snow, a very good player in his own right. As I mention below, there were too many things that could go wrong by hoping the opponent misses with just a few seconds left in the game.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 11:50 AM PST up reply actions
Way out of line
Calling Steve’s credibility into question is ridiculous. How long have you even been around here? Steve has never been as critical of the coach as some of us. So?
John R posts all the time about how it’s the players’ fault and not the coach. That’s just his opinion. As far as I know, John R isn’t associated with the team (are you?). Obviously intelligent minds can differ.
Some of you guys need a reality check. It’d be one thing if Steve spent post after post praising the coaching staff and management in the face of obvious incompetence. But if Steve chooses to criticize the players, which is a VERY valid criticism, then he’s hardly out of line.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you guys need to get a grip before calling people’s character in question. That’s really out of line.
My only associations are to the R family
And the Nation.
Some folks in this space know what I do and can vouch, though obviously that info isn’t for everyone hence why I haven’t put it out there.
Wasn't calling you out
Just to be clear in case I wasn’t. I was just using you as an example of how people can differ in opinions and not be “on the take” like some of these guys are trying to say about Steve.
You and I obviously don’t always agree (or agree very often actually) but I can respect your perspective and not call your character in question.
I just think character attacks are WAY out of line.
Chill Out
I did not call out Steve’s credibility. Steve, if you took it that way, I apologize. I obviously enjoy and respect your work, otherwise I wouldn’t be here right now. I was just commenting that if last night’s loss had occurred this time last year, I would have expected Steve to question Dunleavy’s decisions a bit more, even if it were in a nonchalant manner.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 11:59 AM PST up reply actions
I was just commenting that if last night’s loss had occurred this time last year, I would have expected Steve to question Dunleavy’s decisions a bit more
Okay, so you are basically saying that the access Steve has been granted has corrupted his opinions (perhaps even subconsiously.) I’m not trying to blast you (because I do like discussing this issue in general and I think we should be open about it) but if you felt that way, why not bring some evidence to the table? There is a pretty easy to use archive function for this blog, so why didn’t you pull some of his work from last year and compare and contrast? Otherwise, it sort of felt like a cheap shot with no evidence to support it. The Clippers had plenty of losses last year, and Steve wrote a ton of recaps; if this recap is a deviation from his behavior in the prior season, it shouldn’t be hard to point out.
If you are going to call out the writer (and yes you did do that) you might want to come to the table with some supporting facts.
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions
If I wanted to question
Steve’s credibility explicitly, I would have written, “Steve, now that you have access to the team I no longer respect nor value your opinion because I feel you are unable to write objectively.” Did I say that? No. Again, I respect Steve very much; otherwise I wouldn’t have given him several pageviews a day for the last year and a half. I am well aware that Steve is much more neutral when it comes to Mike Dunleavy (do you want me to quote all of the times he has said that???) but it is my opinion that last year Steve would have commented on some decisions that were made down the stretch, such as inserting a cold Mardy Collins, removing Al Thornton when he had been rebounding well on the night, and not fouling with 27 seconds left (yes, I saw the brief comment.) Questioning his credibility would be saying that I can no longer trust what he writes. Again, not the case. There is a huge difference between not being able to trust or believe a writer and being slightly disappointed that they do not share as much as they used to.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
do you want me to quote all of the times he has said that???
Well, ya, sort of. You say you’ve been here for a year and a half, but your profile says you just started posting this morning, so you’re not going to get the benefit of the doubt from me. Saying that you felt things would have been different for Steve last year yet refusing to cite a specific example is sort of lame. I’ve also been around for a while and my recollection of how Steve handled these situations last year doesn’t jive with your memory. Absent any evidence (which I’ve pointed out is very easy to find) your posts just seem off base.
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
Two reasons I didn’t start commenting until today.
1. I am a frequent commenter on Clipperblog and did my commenting there.
2. In general, the commenters here are much more MDsr neutral than I am and I wasn’t sure how I’d be received.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 2:22 PM PST up reply actions
Wave to fly under the radar with that handle
I kid. But if you were worried about how you’d be received in an MDsr neutral world, you might have wanted to go a different way. I’m just saying.
I think your comments today have been valid and interesting – but don’t turn into a one trick pony.
Also, don’t be surprised that you’ll be viewed a little suspiciously, joining the blog today and suddenly being one of the most active posters. There’s nothing wrong with that per se, and I’m thrilled to have the attention – but in blogland it looks a little off.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 12, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions
Well, I decided to make my feelings obvious
Despite being born and raised in Orange County, I’ve always had the personality of an abrasive east coaster. Maybe that’s why I ended up out here? I’ll try not be a one trick pony, but until I see tangible change in Clipperdom (be it personnel, record, or atmosphere/effort) my position on the team’s management will most likely remain. If somehow MDsr rights the ship, I’ll gladly acknowledge it and give him the proper recognition. Unfortunately, he’s given me no reason to do so over the last several years.
I am sure you could verify that several daily hits are coming from two locations (my office and my apartment) in a suburb of a major northeast city. So, I am not a troll but rather a passionate and disgruntled Clippers fan. Now that I finally signed up for a commenting account I will try to be a regular, productive citizen. Keep up the great work.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions
"I’ll gladly acknowledge it and give him the proper recognition..."
And change your handle? You’ve made your words impossible to appreciate. If Dunleavy succeeds, you look like an idiot and invite invective and mockery. If he fails and gets fired, there will be no point, and you’ll have to change your screen name anyway. If all you want to do is see Dunleavy fired, great. But if you’re really a Clipper fan, want to see the team change, develop, and succeed, then you should choose another name now, today, because, at the moment, you’re mono-dimensional… you’re a walking polemic. I, for one, am not interested. You filtered me out. Is that what you want?
Who are you to tell me to change my name?
If Steve asks, no problem. His site, his rules. If Dunleavy succeeds, I’d be an idiot to not change my name nor acknowledge his feats. So what you’re telling me is that if the team doesn’t improve I get no credit for believing Dunleavy is not fit for either job, and if he succeeds I’m not allowed to give him proper recognition? Interesting. That sounds like a patented Dunleavy “Loss-Loss” scenario for me. One of the reasons I chose this handle is that I believe Clippers fans are too accepting of Dunleavy’s persistent failure, so I chose something a little different. I could not care less if I filtered you out. I have not disparaged any commenters so I see nothing wrong with my being a polemcist.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
You should care
the whole point of commenting on a blog is interacting with others. I wouldn’t imagine it would be a whole lot of fun if others just ignored my posts. The give and take is kind of the point of this format.
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 4:18 PM PST up reply actions
Let me rephrase
I do care about carrying on discourse about all things Clippers. I do not care if my anti-establishment opinions offend those who are unwilling to give me a chance. You said it yourself, “give and take.” Swamigusto seems plenty willing to give, not so willing to take just because someone has a different opinion.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 4:23 PM PST up reply actions
Not at all...
I’m more than willing to hear different opinions… and I don’t really care if you change your handle or not. I also believe Coach Dunleavy should be criticized for the team’s poor play. I was pointing out that by labeling yourself in the manner you have, it makes it hard to consider any opinion you might have OTHER than Mike Dunleavy “is an idiot”.
By the way, I might believe MD should be fired, but by labeling him the way you have you’ve gone beyond suggesting he’s bad at his job, you’re instead suggesting he’s mentally damaged… which is something else again.
Uh...how did you not call out his credibility?
You EXPLICITLY wrote that his newfound closeness to the team is directly related to his alleged reluctance to criticize the coach.
If that’s not questioning his credibility then what is?
From a northeast investment banker no less!
I keed I keed.
I don't know what Dunleavy
was thingking when he called his last time out. 1.4 seconds to go and the other team is leading by 4! Cruel!!!!!
Look beyond game management...
… the Coach assembled this team. The Coach instilled the offensive and defensive strategies of this team.
This game wasn’t lost last night. It was lost in training camp. It was lost in practice.
It was lost because Dunleavy runs this abhorrent, instinct-destroying, plodding, stultifying 80s offense with personnel not suited for it.
Sorry Steve – as much as I appreciate what you do – if you can’t be calling out the Coach after 3 years of utter futility with the same crappy offens and dispirited play then I have to question if your new closeness to the organization is affecting your postings.
I don´t think Steve is being less critical now.
He has been mostly a MDSr supporter. In fact, some time ago he ejected firedunleavy.com.
Maybe the timing to post a defense of MDsr was not the best. But, I don’t think his credibility or his opinions are into question now that he has more access.
by edu_argentina on Nov 12, 2009 8:16 AM PST up reply actions
Um, er
I suspect that Steve can’t be too critical given his new credentials.
You guys are so mean to MDSr.
Hey, I love this blog and Steve seems to be a very good guy.
I just think it’s a legitimate point to consider.
Blogging began as one guy with an opinion. Someone who had no incentive to soften his stance on things because he owed “nothing to nobody”.
It was a forum to circumvent the traditional media because bloggers could be opinionated (as opposed to “just the facts, m’am”).
Traditional Media, though still probably influenced by the powers that be, is supposed to report in an unbiased manner, at least unbiased by the threat of corporations/organizations.
But what happens when Bloggers, now becoming more mainstream, come into contact with the entities they “cover”.
A single Blogger is far more beholden to a single entity they cover as opposed to a news organization.
I think we, as the public, need to be mindful of that fact, is all.
This is nothing against Steve, who’s blog I like and respect, it’s just something I’ve been thinking about in general and wanted to put it in front of everyone.
Points well taken...
It is true that the outsider status of the blogger is threatened when he is no longer an outsider.
And I while I don’t think I’ve been co-opted at all, of course I would be the last to know if I had been. So my opinion on that matter is worth little.
I think there’s a flaw in your logic though. I cover the entire team. If your premise is that I can’t or won’t be critical of MDsr because of the access I have and want to preserve, it would hardly make sense for me to say "It’s not the coach’s fault, it’s the player’s fault’. I cover the players, have access to the players, as well.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 12, 2009 8:57 AM PST up reply actions
But Couldn't MDSr
take away your access? If you bash the players and they don’t talk to you, maybe you still get info from MDSr and other staff members. If you bash MDSr he could revoke your access and you’re left with nothing. Or does he not have authority to do that?
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 9:02 AM PST up reply actions
I think that would be a pretty douche move...
Which would get many more fans riled up. I’ll tell you this, if that happens, I just may join in the “FIIIRE DUNLEAVY” chants…
Don't know
Don’t really care. I don’t think he has that authority per se, but I suppose he could try. I figure if they still let T.J. Simers hang around, I have a long way to go.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 12, 2009 9:10 AM PST up reply actions
+1
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Nov 12, 2009 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
Interesting topic
In fairness, Steve has never really been that critical of MDSr (despite my many attempts to get him to be more critical). Having said that, I would think that if Steve was very critical of management that they would revoke his access.
Not Pulling Your Punches
I don’t think you’re pulling your punches, Steve; I think you’ve demonstrated a consistent perspective while taking into account all the variables that are happening.
I just think it’s time to reconsider that perspective; it is clear that this team is not listening to MDSr. I know that he is an intelligent man with a huge amount of basketball knowledge, and he is a calm, interesting person to listen to when he’s off the court. On the court, however, he’s a screaming maniac who steadily loses control of the team through the game, until the fourth quarter, when the traditional breakdown occurs. His overdependence upon a few shaky components and thorough unwillingness to adapt his coaching to his players’ skills, instead of vice versa, only calls for one thing at this point; a change has gotta come.
Well “co-opted” is a strong word and I don’t think it applies here.
After all, you aren’t a member of the 4th estate, you are a blogger. You’re not claiming an unbiased position and no one is asking you to (indeed, that’s why we read here instead of the LA Times).
I’d say, for the mean time, Mike Dunleavy is “the team” being both GM and Coach. He can limit your access if he wishes to and elevate another blogger to get the juicy inside info taht we love.
Likewise, right or wrong, organizations have a history of circling the wagons and protecting each other. Andy Roeser could decide: “hey, we do this guy a favor and let him have a press credential and he uses it to trash our team, what’s up?”
Players don’t make decisions on press access… though I suppose if you pissed off a high profile player bad enough he might ask to ban you.
Wow, I was looking for some Steve positivity to counterbalance my usual skepticism...
but today, I am doubly depressed because my fear is starting to become a realization.
Players are missing easy shots, so I suppose I can’t fault the coaching for it…but doesn’t it feel like somehow the coaching is involved? Call it the gut instinct.
I mean, things just don’t come easy for the Clippers. Every possession they have to work so hard to get positioning, so many plays end up taking the entire shot clock followed by a last second hurl at the hoop.
Where’s the “identity”? Are we run and gun? Defensive stalwarts? Light em up?
Right now it looks like the identity is … play it safe, be predictable. Throw it to CK on the low right block or run an iso for someone else.
guys, i'm starting to think that captain jack might not be a bad idea...
ok, hear me out….
1. he’ll bring competitiveness and toughness and intensity to this team
2. he’s a clutch shooter – some of those close games we had might have turned out differently
3. he’ll bring out the swagger in baron again – they’ll be playing like their glory days at gsw
4. he could drive dunleavy out of a coaching job
that last one is a joke…. well… kinda
i know he’s crazy, but couldn’t lucas help with that?
trade kaman for him, then go after bosh? having all five guys who demand outside coverage would be a sweet thing.
by baron davis' beard on Nov 12, 2009 9:10 AM PST reply actions
true, but...
i’d rather have him than thornton
by baron davis' beard on Nov 12, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
And then you woke up from your nightmare.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
Why do "good shooter" become horrible when they come to the Clippers?
Ricky Davis and Sual were known to be pretty decent shooters. Ricky Davis was a volume scorer and even had the nickname “Ricky Buckets” and Sual shot well in NO.
Come over to the Clippers and they are bricking it like crazy? Is it the coaching? Tinkering with their shot in hopes to make it better, but actually making it worse?
I don’t know, but I just find it odd.
Butler's Percentages Last Year
were an aberration. He’s a career 40% shooter, so his 43% last year is not only an outlier but still terrible.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 9:23 AM PST up reply actions
The key is True Shooting %
Butler takes so many 3’s that 40% isn’t necessarily bad. 40% of his shot attempts on his career are 3’s, so his true shooting percentage is actually 48%.
When more was asked of him and when playing with great players in Chris Paul and David West last year, his true shooting percentage climbed to 53.7% The fact that he plays decent D’, and doesn’t turn the ball over much adds to his value.
He’s always been a good 3 pt. shooter, hopefully he comes around.
You bet me to it...
What he said.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 12, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions
Yes and no
Butler did have his career year last season. But you can’t look at his 43% shooting last year and say it’s terrible without taking into consideration the number of threes he takes. His eFG was over 52% last season. That’s very, very good.
His career eFG is 48%. His eFG so far this season is 43.5%. So he’s been 10% worse than his career numbers, and 20% worse than last season.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 12, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions
In watching this team over the past several years
The strategy in the 4th quarter has always been to “protect” leads. Take time off the clock, hold on to the ball, etc. The problem with this is we rarely get good shots, and we allow the other team to gain momentum…they smell blood and we tighten up.
This phenomenon happens all over the league, but the Clippers have been about the worst. I swear I’ve watched them try to protect 2 point leads with 14 minutes to play. It’s absurd. Put some other pressure on the team for a change, play with some controlled aggression.
I've always been told by coaches to keep playing full-force like you are going in for the kill
even if you are up by 40 points. Never ever let up and let teams come back.
I think that’s what it is…Dunleavy always plays it safe, or at least, what he thinks is safe.
Exactly.
I’m a huge football, er, soccer, fan and whenever a team is leading by a goal and decides to just defend the lead for the last 10-15 minutes it seems that more often than not they’ll concede a goal. The same concept is true in hoops. Stop attacking and you’ll lose momentum and intensity.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 9:29 AM PST up reply actions
Last Saturday...
My son’s team went into the fourth quarter (AYSO, we have quarters for subs – final 15 minutes) with a 3-nil lead. I told my attacking mids, two of my best players, to concentrate on defense and protect the lead. We immediately gave up 2 goals and barely hung on to get the win. The other team dominated the final 15 minutes, because we stopped being who we are.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 12, 2009 9:58 AM PST up reply actions
It's Crazy
Some psychologists call it “fear of success”
Wouldn’t it be the “fear of losing” which drove Steve to stop attacking with his midfielders? He didn’t actually want to lose, he did what he thought was best to avoid losing. Even though that decision was incorrect, it doesn’t mean he didn’t want to win.
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
It's funny...
I coach little kids playing soccer. I mean, Max is 13 now, so it’s a bit more competitive than when he was 7. But it’s still little kids. And by the way, I know very little about soccer.
But I second guess myself ALL THE TIME. Like this one time four years ago when I tried a different goalie in the final quarter because I wanted Max on the field and the kid gave up two easy one. I STILL think about that. Why?
And you tend to project forward to what might happen. If we DON’T pull the mids back and play more D, and we lose the lead, then I’m a complete idiot. “Hey coach, why didn’t you protect the lead?”
Imagine what it must be like to be an NBA coach, when no matter what you do, if you don’t win then it was wrong, and it was your fault.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 12, 2009 10:12 AM PST up reply actions
No wonder you sympathize with MDsr...
…jk
But really it’s natural, you think you have the lead and go…I can’t lose it…we just have to hang on!
Unless you are LBJ or Kobe in which case you only know how to think, “DESTROY THE OPPOSITION!”
Right
Cassell was the only guy who could pull off Dunleavy’s conservative 4th quarter strategy/preference, because he could control the ball and nail jumpers.
Take a look at who's on the floor during the scoring drought
and who you’d expect the scoring to come from.
Then tell me whether it’s the coach’s fault or not.
Well, the coach put this team together
so…
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 9:31 AM PST up reply actions
I don't really have a problem with the team that has been put together
except for the lack of depth at the 4.
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 9:35 AM PST up reply actions
I know you like Z-Bo
But exactly how much depth do you want at the four? We have the first overall draft pick, Marcus Camby (PER 18.3) and Craig Smith (PER 16.1).
There is a decided lack of depth on the wings, where last night Baron Davis was forced to play 6 minutes, Ricky Davis 7 minutes and Mardy Collins 4 minutes, and where are current starters are among the least productive players on the team. The four is fine.
Z-bo’s absence leaves us without a go to scorer. But it’s not a depth issue, as far as I can tell.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 12, 2009 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
It was intended as a backhanded Z-Bo comment
It was meant to be somewhat humorous…. at least that was my intention.
No question the team needs wings.
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 10:07 AM PST up reply actions
ok
I got he Z-bo part at least.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 12, 2009 10:12 AM PST up reply actions
BTW
The Spurs won last night against Dallas with Parker and Duncan out…so Popovich can coach with injuries…
Well
if memory serves the lineup to start the 4th quarter was pretty awful. It was Baron and a bunch of second teamers (Smith, Telfair, Jordan and I think Collins.) That was a pretty bad coaching decision in my opinion. The game was tied, don’t see why its time to throw in guys like Jordan and Collins who aren’t exactly proven scorers. Luckily, OKC didn’t score during this time either, but if a more competent lineup was on the floor, perhaps the Clips could have gotten some separation.
After watching the game, this was my number 1 complaint with MDsr last night.
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
Saw the same thing
How in the world can you give Mardy Collins his first game action of the year at a critical point in a critical game? To add insult to injury DeAndre Jordan was on the floor at the same time. It smelled like disaster and it turned out that way.
Have no idea why this team stops playing after getting an 8-10 point lead.
Maybe if you're Dunleavy
You use your “fresh” guys, because OKC is on the second game of a back-to-back, with travel…so Mardy should be more explosive, right? RIGHT???
I don't mind Mardy getting minutes per se
If the rest of the lineup was somewhat solid. But Mardy and DJ to start the fourth?
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 9:57 AM PST up reply actions
Exactly...
Then there was a point where Thornton came in and had to create shots because nothing else was happening. I can recall several times where I said where are the points supposed to come from. If Baron is in and driving to the hoop, that’s one thing. When they’re passing ball around the perimeter to Telfair & Collins, that’s another.
Zer0
I literally have no idea what your point is.
Many different lineups were on the floor during the scoring drought. For most of the fourth quarter, it was the starters. So I’m not sure what you’re saying. Was there a scorer over there on the bench I don’t know about? Was Novak supposed to be in? Are you saying that there’s not enough scoring on the roster?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 12, 2009 10:14 AM PST up reply actions
My point is...
If you’re going to have Baron in with guy that are lucky to average 4 pts a game, you need to run plays for Baron. They get their points off of Baron breaking down the defense & getting easy baskets. You can’t rely on Telfair, DJ, Collins, Thornton (history, so far..as many good as bad), to create their own shots.
By the time the starters came back, the lead was lost. You have players pressing…shooting 3s, rushing, etc. IF there’s time, you can get back in with 2s & good defense (again, a coaching issue).
I don’t see where you can excuse the coaching.
P.S. Also, as history shows, if the backup happen to play well, MDSr leaves them in too long until the lead is lost again. If you can see any logic to his rotation (yes, rotation, not just substitutions), please enlighten me.
One thing I'd like to see is a plus/minus Coaching Efficiency stat
For example, take the first minute & a half of periods and after time outs to see how effective coaching adjustments & play calling is. I may have a skewed viewpoint, but it sure feels like MDSr diagrams turnovers during timeouts.
I think they’re so rigidly running the designed play that they don’t take what’s available and are not using their natural abilities.
2 instances
of playcalling out of a timeout.
1) At the end of the Phoenix game a play is called which gets EJ one on one versus Stoudamire. A very favorable matchup. EJ should have driven to the hoop, instead he tried to shoot and hope for a foul. Game over.
2) A play is designed which gets Kaman 1 on 1 on the low block. He spins the wrong way resulting in a turnover.
Both of these plays would show as inefficiencies in your model, and I would argue both were successful from a play calling standpoint, and it was the execution that failed.
by Michael White on Nov 13, 2009 11:17 AM PST up reply actions
I think over time the average would bear out
If you continue going to a play where the execution fails, that’s a part of coaching efficiency also. Execution will average out if the play selection gives you an advantage. Added factors are: Are you running a play you’ve practiced over and over for these situations, or are you drawing something up on the fly? Are your players prepared? Do you have the right players in (or are you bringing Novak with seconds left when he hasn’t played in the game yet? Are you playing a rookie Daniel Ewing knowing Phoenix needs a 3 to tie the game?)
Also,
1) Should EJ know to go to the hoop with Stoudamire on him?
2) Is anyone confident in Kaman as the go to… especially,down by 2, 10 seconds left?
We’ve seen it time after time where a player looks for a bailout foul (repeat after me…“Corey Maggette”), which is rarely called in crunch-time, and never called when you’re the Clippers. The players should know this because the coaches have been hammering it into them.
The players should know it, because they are the players.
I find it odd that every player failing can be blamed on the coach. Does EJ know it? How should I know, but him not executing is 100% his failure.
For all we know the coaches are hammering it into them, but seeing as how we’ll never know this, you decide to take the position that it must be the coaches fault, where I would say it is more likely the players fault (you know, the guy holding the basketball.)
by Michael White on Nov 13, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
OK, I see your point
but when there are so many examples of players failing to execute over the years, then you have to look for the common factor.
To make that argument
You have to know exactly what the player was told during the time out.
Not easy being a coach, I guess
On this thread, the guy has been eviscerated by some for not giving his starters enough rest, and by others for having his subs on the floor.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
To reiterate: this isn't a matter of in-game coaching...
… Dunleavy seems average at that. It’s about everything up until that point.
The players aren’t being put in a position to succeed with Dunleavy’s rigid approach and, from their listless play, I’d imagine they’re confidence in the team’s structure isn’t high either.
Again, this is nothing new. It’s only been the same way for 3 years.
Coaching is a results driven position.
Byron Scott, has been more successful and is still the subject of rumors to possibly being fired.
NJN 2000–01 82 26 56 .317 6th in Atlantic — — — Missed Playoffs
NJN 2001–02 82 52 30 .634 1st in Atlantic 20 11 9 Lost in NBA Finals
NJN 2002–03 82 49 33 .598 1st in Atlantic 20 14 6 Lost in NBA Finals
NJN 2003–04 42 22 20 .524 (fired) — — — —
NOH 2004–05 82 18 64 .220 5th in Southwest — — — Missed Playoffs
NOK 2005–06 82 38 44 .463 4th in Southwest — — — Missed Playoffs
NOK 2006–07 82 39 43 .476 4th in Southwest — — — Missed Playoffs
NOH 2007–08 82 56 26 .683 1st in Southwest 12 7 5 Lost in Conf. Semifinals
NOH 2008–09 82 49 33 .598 4th in Southwest 5 1 4 Lost in First Round
Yup
The Hornets need cover for tearing the team apart to save money. Might as well blame the person least responsible for the situation.
Now, if they were actually interested in solving the problem, they probably would have done…almost anything else.
If the team is significantly falling short of expectations
Really, if the team is currently falling short of expecations, its because your expectations were too high.
No
But he shouldn’t be fired BECAUSE your expectations were too high.
I think there are a range of reasonable expectations
But I just don’t know if we are squirrely here yet, and certainly not based on anything in last night’s game.
What’s the reasonble expectation?
I don’t know many coaches that have keep their job with losing as much as Dunleavy has.
You find this reasonable?
As a Clippers fan?
Why do you find this to be reasonable?
It is the desire of every sports fan for their team to do well...
In terms of expectations, I want the Clippers to compete, who doesn’t? If the team keeps losing am I supposed to sit there content with poor performances just because they have historically performed poorly? Am I supposed to just throw my hands up and go “oh well at least we have offseason”?
My expectations are for changes that would make the Clippers competitive. At least effort to do so.
If the changes are made and no improvement has been made, I expect the team management to continue and change variables until there is a decent formula.
Effort is enough?
Then that is where we disagree.
with this management that is all I can expect...
…anything else would be exceeding my expectations.
He's being paid $5 MILLION A YEAR
The expectations should be AT LEAST playoffs.
No - look at how the team plays the game of basketball
Look at the offensive sets and the way the team plays basketball. Look at the record. This ain’t rocket science folks.
This is a veteran team that shouldn’t lose to the Thunder at home.
Period.
This is a veteran team that shouldn’t lose to the Thunder at home.
LOL.
So every team that loses to the Thunder at home should fire their coach.
You make my point better than I ever could about the simple, myopic and ultimately destructive point of view of the fire the coach crowd.
Your boy Pop should be out then, a worse Thunder team got to the Spurs in SA last year.
Simple, simple minds.
Right it's just based on that one game
Stop with your incessant defense of MDSr against all comers. It’s just getting old.
Sub .400 is all there is. 0 WIN score to use your vernacular.
You have never once analyzed one play, offensive set, defensive play or anything else regarding the xs and os of coaching on this site. All you offer is mindless personal attacks on others for daring to suggest that the sub .400 coach is not that great.
Oh yeah – and pompousness.
It's not a matter of holding the coach responsible for the team losing
You WANT to replace the coach when you have an expectation that the person replacing him will produce better results.
Then things like money, loyalty, reputation,etc. come into play as factors.
MAKE AN F#%&ING LAYUP, KAMAN!
Just had to get that off my chest. I still can’t believe how many chances he had. I don’t blame anyone for this loss other than Chris’s shooting hand.
Byron Scott Fired
Good to see that some teams do not find a 3-6 start and a coach that has lost the locker room to be acceptable.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 10:34 AM PST reply actions
They don't tolerate mediocrity
They know that when a coach has lost the locker room, as I presume Dunleavy did 2 years ago, it’s time to move on.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 10:39 AM PST up reply actions
I was just giving you a hard time :)
My point was, why is it nice to see a different team do that? I hope that every team in the league (other than the Clippers) does everything poorly.
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
The funny thing is
Like almost all coach/player questions, its the players that are the problem. Its almost as if this is all predictable.
Hornets players get old/worse, they add players worse than those they lost, fan expectations don’t match what is achievable = coach pays with his job.
Its how DUMB organizations behave, not smart ones.
Are you seriously trying to imply
That the Clips have been “smart” by not firing Dunleavy?
I mean seriously?
I don't know if it is smart or not
But the Hornets example today is hilariously perfect to demonstrate how the fire dunleavy madness is silly.
This would be MORE on track
Except up and down the thread and the ClipperSphere I see people praise GMDSr. The GM still has to manuever within the constraints of the salary cap system, so while his hands aren’t tied, its awfully hard to just fix something overnight.
So you tell me.
The thing that makes the most sense to me: blame the players. In this one blame Chris Kaman. But not too harshly, because he has been the key in the wins.
Yea, I blame Kaman
But let’s not be oblivious to other explanations. Last night, pretty much, the whole team went cold. I could just blandly marvel at the power of team dynamics and attitudes, but then there’s the coach, who might have something to do with the low morale. I’ve been resistant to that line of reasoning, but I can feel myself starting to cave some, especially after the last two losses. It really might be time for some fresh energy.
Did the whole team go cold?
The only player to really deviate from his season long shooting percentage was Kaman.
Be careful with perception versus reality.
They made 3 shots in the 4th
Give me some time here (I’m at work) and I’ll see what other realities I can dig up. I’m not making this argument adamantly, but the team looks downright green, and I imagine there’ll be some numbers to reflect this. Even if somehow there aren’t, though, that doesn’t change the reality of what we’re all seeing. What’s more real, the game we’re watching or the numbers collected to describe it?
What’s more real, the game we’re watching or the numbers collected to describe it?
The surface of the question, but not the core.
The core is the talent (as you're saying)...
and the psychology involved. The numbers are an avenue to the deeper stuff, but they aren’t the destination
And, I should add...
the strategy and teammanship. Stuff like that.
I don't know dude.
He is no Jerry Sloan who during his tenure from 1979 – 2009 has only had 3 season sub .500
I think coaching does more than players do to win games.
You are entitled to this opinion
But I think it would be a minority opinion, even among Dunleavy haters.
The players are far more important than the coach.
Houston doesn’t have the greatest team this year, but they have looked better than the Clippers in the games I have seen.
Another expectations problem
If you like, I can present where I actually have been arguing Houston is going to far exceed expectations based on the players on the roster. I made this point multiple times.
Probably by a little bit
And I think everyone had this expectation. Anyone know what the Clippers wins line was in Vegas? Houston was at 35 but I thought they would exceed that.
You're right about exceeding expectations
They have a good coach
Not really comparable
I agree that for the Hornets, firing the Scott isn’t really a great decision.
But the Hornets situation doesn’t at all reflect what you just said. The Clips under Dun has gone to the post season once. They won 19 games last year. They’re 3-6 this year and are showing many of the same problems they had in years past (like the inability to close, lack of consistent effort, etc.). The Hornets on the other hand have been a perennial playoff team. THEIR coach deserves some slack because he’s had a history of success. THIS coach doesn’t.
It baffles me that you continue to make excuses for an ineffective coach. For a guy who loves stats, you simply have no support for the kind of loyalty towards Dunleavy. No other team in the league not named Golden State sticks with their coach after this kind of prolonged ineptitude.
So yea, some teams are dumb for firing their coach, some teams aren’t. In this case, absolutely ZERO evidence to support a claim that firing Dun would be dumb.
For a guy who loves stats, you simply have no support for the kind of loyalty towards Dunleavy.
The problem is, there is no numerical support to the side that he is failing. If you can present it, and if anyone can you can, I will gladly listen.
So, because I follow the stats, everything that has come to pass is actually perfectly clear and within expectations.
Hence why I don’t freak out. Chris Kaman has a statistically unlikely game, and if he continues to blow layups all year the team will lose frequently. Are you arguing the coach shouldn’t develop and call for schemes that result in the center getting layups?
In fact, this game was a nice parallel to the whole 06-07 season. For those of us with no heart and all brain.
On a quick note on Chris Kaman
I read somewhere that Kaman was ill during the game and will sit out in practice today. Possible excuse for Kaman’s efficient this game?
I hope he is well.
Scary that they are calling it not the flu, but still contagious and holding him out of practice.
More on Kaman
reallisa Chris Kaman not at Clippers’ practice. Suffering from a virus. NOT the flu. Team hopes he’ll be able to play on Friday vs. Raptors
Man we’re taking hits left and right. Blake down, EJ down, now maybe Kaman too?
"there is no numerical support to the side that he is failing."
The guy’s record with the Clips is 197-304. Is that supposed to be numerical support of his success?
And you can spare me your self-serving comments about “no heart and all brain.” I’m not Jax. I never made such claims (especially you being all brain). But you admittedly like advanced stats (I appreciate them as well) yet you’re strangely choosing to ignore the one stat that counts the most – wins and losses.
Over 6+ years? That’s not a statistical anomaly. He’s not a bad coach, but he’s not a good enough one to warrant this kind of job security.
by madglove on Nov 12, 2009 11:22 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
But, again
What should their record have been given the roster? That’s the missing point that noone ever seems to want to make.
Not true
“Noone ever seems to want to make?” Don’t be silly. Players face quite a bit of criticism around here. Your own good friend Jax wants to trade Kaman for cap space after all.
But your position is that the players are the only ones to deserve criticism (well today you seem to be taking the position that the fans need to be reprimanded for their expectations…which is fair to a point but not to the level you’re trying to take it).
You consistently make excuses for the coach and deflect blame to the players. Over the last 7 seasons, Dun and Kaman are the only two who have been the constants on this team. Dun put this team together and has gone through several iterations.
You want to blame the players? Guess what? For the most part they’ve been changed. Yet the losing hasn’t. The players HAVE been blamed. You can continue trying to ignore the obvious, but you’re pretty much the only one who thinks Dun the coach isn’t doing a bad job.
If you want to keep screaming into the wind because you like being a contrarian, well, that’s up to you I guess. But don’t deceive yourself into thinking that’s a logical position.
So
You didn’t want to make the point about what the record should have been then.
Convince me. I’m telling you what it would take to convince me. I’m not being a contrarian.
You will have to do better than the above though. Show me, using the record (actual vs expected) points differential (actualy vs expect) any measure of team performance whatsoever.
I’m listening and I always will be. And waiting. Still, after all these years.
Ok so lets just do this..
Fire both Dunleavy the GM and Dunleavy the coach.
Fini.
As far as I know
there’s no EWA stat for coaches so your request is difficult to determine quantitatively. However, is it a coincidence that our one good season during Dunleavy’s tenure occurred when we had a PG who acted like a coach (and is one now)? Of course not. Therefore, you can either blame Dunleavy the GM for not bringing in the right PG or you can blame Dunleavy the Coach for not being able to get through to his players.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
False dilemmas are funny
You are new here so I will be nice, but you might be out of your element Donny.
There are any number of other explanations for the current performance than the two you propose, and you fail to demonstrate either one to actually be true.
Then teach me
Or you don’t know either?
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
No
Teach me why I’m wrong about the Clippers since you’re the expert.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
LOL
Let me turn your silly “coincidence” back on you.
Is it a coincidence that the Clippers “one good season” (I assume either 47 wins or the second round of the playoffs is what constitutes a good season in your book?) in the last thirty years was under Dunleavy as coach and de facto GM?
Its just as fundamentally illogical of a question. Pursue this line of reasoning at your leisure, but it is fail.
Reading comprehension FAIL
I said one good season during Dunleavy’s tenure, not last 30 years. If we’re talking last 30 years, how about Larry Brown in 91-92 and 92-93? First round defeats, but postseason nonetheless.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
No I think I read it just right
I rest my case about how bad your logic was. I’ll let this stand as is.
John R's continual defense of all things MDSr
whenever the issue comes up
Reminds me of a fencer, constantly darting from one place to another, fending everyone off
Admit it, your livelihood is tied to MDSr in some way
Admit it, your livelihood is tied to MDSr in some way
Only one of the many fantasies that Jax has created to live under that in sum form his insane worldview. I don’t have the psychology degree or the meds to fix him, unfortunately.
Why is my worldview insane?
My worldview – the Clippers would do better with another coach.
Since you say coaches don’t matter, why do you care?
But you are getting really personal now. I must have struck a nerve.
That doesn't even make sense
Don’t ask for something you don’t want. You don’t want to be convinced.
I don’t need advanced stats when the record speaks for itself. Dun is the GM. If he wasn’t the GM, I’d say fire the GM…oh wait, we did that. He put this team together so you can’t argue that his performance is excused because the team wasn’t expected to be better.
Again, the two constants on this team in the last 6+ seasons are Dun and Kaman. Everyone else has been thrown under the bus.
You don’t want to be convinced
I do. I really really do. My mind is open. Show me.
I am telling you how to do it. I have looked at it already, and have done so all along, but maybe there is something I have missed. Point it out to me.
But that's the thing
The stats you want aren’t instructive of the point we’re discussing. The stats you want are only relevant when the coach is not the GM.
It’s illogical to say Dun isn’t failing b/c the team he put together is as bad as the stats expect them to be.
You’re looking to be convinced by stats that aren’t relevant to the discussion. Did he put this team together to be in the lottery year after year? Then he should be fired. Did he put together a team that advanced stats say should be bad? Then he should be fired. Did he claim that the team he put together is a playoff team and fail to deliver? Then he should be fired.
He orchestrated this team. He coaches it. He can’t win with it. He should be fired.
Fair enough, but I didnt say Dun isn't failing
My point has been there is no evidence that CMDSr is failing. If you want GMDSr fired, I won’t argue. Like I said, its at least a rational position.
Before this morning though, it wasn’t a position anyone anywhere was putting forth. In fact he holds a de facto executive of the year award as a Clipper. The consequence of these facts is that I don’t find it to be very honest to invoke the idea now.
So I still sit here, waiting and hoping to be convinced that it is all CMDSr’s fault.
Does it have to be "all his fault"
To warrant a firing? Don’t you agree that sometimes coaches who aren’t that bad still need to get fired just to show the players that the organization cares about making changes?
Dun has had 6 seasons to put together a winning team. He’s had his chance. It doesn’t need to be “all his fault.” Coaches shouldn’t get to keep their jobs just because they aren’t terrible. They should keep their jobs b/c they’re good at it.
by madglove on Nov 12, 2009 12:43 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
btw
It’s not accurate at all to say that nobody “anywhere” was saying Dun should be fired before this morning. I even posted yesterday about how GSW is the only team that made a worse decision keeping the coach.
I don’t think Dun will get fired b/c Sterling is that cheap. But I think it’s been quite obvious that he should have been fired long ago. That’s been my consistent position for quite a while.
You can join the two roles if you like
But I don’t find it to be the most honest position. Many people have wanted the coach fired, but their desired result includes him staying as GM. I made this clear in my comment.
How is it not honest?
I’m not even sure what you’re saying here.
Personally, I’ve maintained that I want Dun gone completely. But if the only coaching change we can make is having him bumped up to GM, I’ll take it.
Firing your coach and GM
Doesn’t signal anything to me other than scapegoating, unless you first show that it is their fault.
Well
I guess that’s your organizational model. That’s fine I guess. I will say that it’s a model that none of the good teams follow.
Teams like the Lakers, Spurs and Celtics would never let a coach sit on the pine for 6 years and have the record Dun has. Their history is proof of that.
They’re always looking for tangible success. And though you don’t want to face it, that tangible success comes in wins and losses.
Right
because our win-loss record is not evidence at all of a coach’s failings.
Your positions aren’t consistent. The team isn’t expected to win more so Dun’s coaching can’t be blamed? But he’s the GM and he shouldn’t be blamed for that either?
My positions are completely consistent
I have never, ever, ever said he shouldn’t be blamed as GM.
You are putting forth a unique position, that again I still don’t recall seeing before today but I will take you at your word, that he should be fired for his work as GM.
We can get into a discussion of the youth movement and if that changes things, but I bet it won’t, even if I can go back and find comments where you recommended a youth movement. This would obviously put such a recommender in an inconsistent position. Fire the coach when the GM performed as desired.
It's not that unique
There have been plenty asking him to be fired completely.
Apparently you remember better the ones who want to keep him as GM.
The brought in Z-Bo and Ricky Davis. I’ll take a new GM too.
Only by tying the hats together
Is that point true.
And that’s where I maintain the dishonesty in that position.
Sigh
Who else before I got here this morning was saying Dunleavy should be fired for his work as GM in this thread?
Noone.
And those that have since taken up that position at least partially only did so after I suggested it.
Completely irrelevant
What does it matter if it was said in THIS thread? You’re quick to go tell others to do research for you, do your own if you care that much.
It’s funny that you try to take credit for the position of others. The reality is that your position that he can’t be blame as coach because the team isn’t good is baseless given that he’s both the coach and the GM.
You try to split the positions but it’s illogical. He put this team together because he thought he could coach it to victories. He obviously can’t. Thus he should be fired as coach.
You’re attempting to argue that people want to keep him as GM. That’s a certain percentage sure. But those people aren’t in this thread right now. So trying to impute their arguments here is pointless.
Plus, you throw around the word "dishonest"
Who the heck am I being dishonest to? Careful with the rhetoric.
197-304
That’s your evidence. Call me crazy but 501 games is a large enough sample size to draw a conclusion on a GM or coach’s performance.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 1:14 PM PST up reply actions
So he win 39% of his games as a Clipper?
This far exceeds Los Angeles Clippers historicals.
Odds aren’t good that the Clippers get better without Dunleavy by that metric. I’m not sure that is the point you were trying to make.
You shouldn't judge Dunleavy
based on Clippers’ past coaches. You should judge him based on his current peers. When I do M&A transaction analyses I don’t look at transactions from 20 years ago; I look over the past few years. Same principle with sports management.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
Why shouldn't I?
Show your work. You did above.
A boutique investment bank
in the northeast. Since I feel my Clippers knowledge will now be questioned (general statement; not directed at you at all), I do not attend Clippers games but I do stay up until 1:00 a.m to watch on League Pass.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think a lot of people would have questioned you
there are clipper fans here from the UK, Argentina, Sweden, et al. We’ve got an eclectic bunch here.
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 1:31 PM PST up reply actions
Wonder how many ppl in M&A are on this site...
we must be gluttons for punishment.
John, how would you prove that a coach is at fault?
I have no clue if win/loss doesn’t show this, ratio of playoff to lottery doesn’t show it.
Night in night out illustrations of player mismanagement or poor closing plays getting called doesn’t prove it.
What does?
Not trying to be snarky as I am not sure he should be fired either, genuinely interested in what would illustrate it.
hmmm
1. A coach should be fired only when expectations are not met.
2. If expecations are not met, it is due to Clippers Fans expectations being to high.
3. You can’t fire the GM cause it’s the Coach’s fault.
4. You can’t fire the Coach cause it’s the GM’s fault.
5. Coach’s make little difference, it’s all on the players.
My friends, John R is no other than MDsr posing as a fan.
Well
At least 2 of those are blatantly not my position and 1 is 100% wrong about what my position is.
So once you take the incorrect parts out of the comment, its not bad.
Would it matter?
I said multiple times the right move if you think the team is going in the wrong direction is to blame the players, and thus the GM.
I then said multiple times if you want to fire Dunleavy because he is a bad GM, then make that case and do it.
I disagree with that position, but that is different from saying you CAN’T.
And thats just for starters.
I am famous for saying no, but for the purposes of the new folks I will clarify
Obviously if you had someone who didn’t know what a basketball was go out there and had to pick his starting lineup from a bunch of people he didn’t know anything about or what skills matter in basketball, it would probably matter alot.
I would say that among of the group of NBA experienced coaches, the effect of the coach is probably about the same as the effect of luck in terms of size on the result of a given outcome.
Combined is probably less than 10%?
Then why even object to changing coaches?
If they matter so little, then presumably the best thing to do is keep changing coaches until you find a Phil Jackson or a Greg Poppavich right?
A good question
For one they would be changing coaches AND GM.
For two, who knows what direction this new GM will take. There is a very high chance he is a much worse GM than GMDSr. He will feel pressure to win now, and a great way to look like you are trying to win now is to trade young assets for veteran assets. Note that this sometimes works, but not always and sometimes you end up the Knicks and screwed for a decade.
For three, Sterling WON’T keep changing coaches and GMs until he finds one that works. Along these lines, there is some non-zero chance he cuts his losses and returns to his old ways as well.
For four, there is no such thing as a Phil Jackson or a Greg Poppavich, see my comment above and what happens to a Jackson or Pop team when they don’t have one of the top 5 players in the league on their team.
For Five, while in stride coaches are largely identical, there is some spin up time. Your idea of rolling the dice until you find a right combination could actually go on perpetually, Sterling aside.
Your perpetual franchise reboots just doesn’t sound attractive to me.
Why?
It makes no sense. You don’t want to reboot because of what? Because what we have now is so desirable?
19 wins John…19 wins. 197-304. There’s absolutely no reason not to reboot. There’s very little to fear losing despite your apparent fear to do so.
Well
Thanks for ignoring my comment I guess.
19 wins was last year? Move on?
Game 7 second round madglove…47 wins.
I'm not exactly new here...
but how do you explain teams that suddenly do much better with a coaching change?
Let’s take the Suns for example. I realize you could argue that Shaq had a lot to do with it, but conversely a good coach would have not utilized him.
Also...
When making statements you have to realize, that you are in the extreme minority in thinking that coaching doesnt matter (that much)
The Suns are a perfect example
I remember when that moron was the coach of the Clippers. I for one don’t want Alvin Gentry back.
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 4:12 PM PST up reply actions
If the core of this argument is that it can't possibly be worse
I find this to be incorrect.
Its funny you mention George Karl
Firegeorgekarl.com currently redirects to the Clipsnation sister site for the Nuggets.
So their fans wanted that guy fired and even created a website about it, he wasn’t, then they went to the WCF. I will say their site was far less childish than the one set up by our local counterpart.
Either he watched a whole bunch of VHS tapes on coaching, or the trade for Billups matters a lot more than George Karl.
I doubt this was the example you intended.
On Jerry Sloan
Sloan had John Stockton and Karl Malone for his first SIXTEEN years as a head coach.
Never got over the hump though, which is one of the criticisms I heard of Dunleavy of why his successes don’t matter. Huh.
At any rate, as soon as Stockton retired the Jazz only won 26 games that next season. Funny that.
And as soon as Cassell left
we had season win totals of 23 and 19.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 4:53 PM PST up reply actions
Your point is?
If you can’t find any other variables that changed between those two seasons, you might as well change your name to Not Only Do I Hate Dunleavy So Much I Named Myself After Him, But I Struggle To See Through Complex Issues When He Is Involved.
Clearly I Don't Understand
Since I am too stupid to comprehend the real reasons why were had our best season in 15 years when Cassell was running the point, perhaps you could enlighten me? All you’ve done today is tell me why I’m wrong. I can accept that, but, as you say, I need evidence.
My point continues to be that Cassell was the reason for our playoff run, not Dunleavy, just like you were trying to say that Stockton was the reason behind the Jazz’s success.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 5:08 PM PST up reply actions
Typo
“All you’ve done today is tell me THAT I’m wrong.” Obviously, I’m looking for the why.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 5:08 PM PST up reply actions
Actually I think I agree with your first statement
With that as an agreed upon given, I don’t really have the patience to undertake an endeavor like that.
Make no mistake, Cassell was a big part of the good things that happened, but to singularly identify him as the reason is silly.
I mean, he’s actually a coach in Washington now and they have fewer wins than the Clippers. He must have forgotten what to do if he was actually the mastermind.
Right
Because we all know assistant coaches run the show. Drawing conclusions off of an 8-game sample size? I’m not sure a statistician would support that. By the way, thanks for the personal attacks. Real mature.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 5:18 PM PST up reply actions
By the way, thanks for the personal attacks
The Pot and the Kettle are both stunned right now.
Your identity on this board is a personal attack. You qualify as both immature by your own metric, and a hypocrite.
Been great having you around though.
Seriously though
you can’t put together a few sentences to refute my point that 05-06 was all Cassell? It’s not like I’m asking for a dissertation. How is it fair that you can ask others for evidence but when they ask you all of a sudden you “don’t have the patience”? Weak. You provide me with 3-4 sentences, and for your sake I promise to not respond to them.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 12, 2009 5:27 PM PST up reply actions
I didn't think I needed to because the flaw in your point was so clear.
“And as soon as Cassell left, we had season win totals of 23 and 19”
You don’t even have your facts straight.
Cassell was on the 07-08 team and won 19 games in 54 and was well off the playoff pace when he begged out. He only appeared in the game for 13 of those wins during his tenure though.
So except for the facts your thesis is based on, everything checks out.
Actually those are all
either his position or what logically flows from his position
Of course he’s MDSr or his flunkie
This is all you've got today?
You’re losing your status as #1 troll.
No offense but saying that it's madness, in the face of
a six year sub .400 record, a team of veterans that underperforms, horrible offensive and defensive sets, etc.,
is the only thing that’s silly here.
As for whether Scott should have been fired
Kevin Pelton takes the position that it’s actually an overdo move:
Disaster of a point by Pelton
The meat of his point is that Scott should have embraced a youth movement set up by the GM.
He wants the youth to play, but admits they youth probably aren’t the best players yet. Youth movements tend to generally result in short term losses = most likely outcome coach is fired.
The youth he mentions are unproductive resulting in losses = most likely outcome coach is fired.
There really isn’t a forseeable outcome where Scott isn’t fired here. Pelton doesn’t really shed any light there.
But in this case we will get to see the results won’t we?
Speaking of, do you know who else is in the midst of a youth movement
The Clippers.
And now there is a fanpost saying bring in Scott. Everyone is all over the place here.
We should have a youth movement; ok here is a youth movement; hey we arent winning every night; fire the coach; he also happens to be the gm who started the youth movement; oh noes!
The Fear of Success / hey, we're the clippers and not much is expected of me
when players come to the clippers, all of the pressure to win is off them…because everyone expects them to lose, no matter what….so, they play to their expectations which super low or non-existant….this is a veteran team, made of of decent players who had some success on other teams…they come to the clips and voila! no one expects them to succeed and hence they dont….when blake griffin was playing in the preseason, expectations were very high…blake made the other guys play hard or they’d be shown up and exposed for the weak characters they are….he went down and the team goes down…eric gordon, the other future cornerstone goes down and there is no one who has the strength of character to carry the team…not baron, who is not a leader and not kaman, who is not a leader….the guys playing now are “followers”…dunleavy cant make them be what they are not…without blake and gordon, these guys will just suck and disappoint everyone…they will continue to make inept mistakes and let inferior teams wipe the floor with them…everyone will scratch their heads and call for dunleavy to be fired…its a players league….without lebron, would mike brown still be coaching??? NO.
We actually had expectations this year.
Many of our teams in the past had zero expectations, but this year there were definitely expectations. And who’s to say we wont gain some momentum in the 2nd half? That’s still possible, but the feeling is that we’ll dig too deep a hole to get out of by the time EJ & Griffin get back.
You can't blame Kaman for this one
The guy is the only one making shots. If the rest of these clippers start making their shots
Kaman won’t get double team or triple team. Both of our small forwards are sucking a
big one. I’m going to say it again why the hell did Dunleavy sign Novak who is great shooter
if he doesn’t play him. When we go into these offensive funks bring him in and mix it up.
Last year when Novak play it seem he never missed from the three point line.
One vote for firing Dunleavy
All the evidence I need is looking at the Clippers win/loss record while being coached under MDsr. I advocated firing him last year as well though… I think he’s an awful piece of the puzzle.
John R, I would like you to explain what specific kinds of “evidence” you would like to witness before supporting the firing of a coach… I just don’t understand how you perpetually can support MDsr when he’s at the top of the food chain on a horrible team.
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
I don't support him per se
I just don’t see any evidence last night’s loss was his fault.
I have put it out there multiple times in the thread how one would go about showing fault in the coach.
About the only thing I can see regarding how you would show fault of the coach
Is when you state that if expectations are not met.
I gather your expectations are on the low side for this collection of players, hence the lack of opposition in firing the GM.
I think consensus expectations are higher though. If you go through analyst rankings before the season started, most ranged between 7-10th in the west. There’s a reason everyone says this team is good “on paper”…it would be hard to find a person down on this roster.
So if the coach doesn’t meet the consensus expectation, I believe a firing is in order.
The team being ranked before the season did have Blake Griffin
and Eric Gordon. I know everyone is sick of injuries being an excuse, but it would explain some of the disconnect between pre-season expectations and performance, no?
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 1:37 PM PST up reply actions
no argument there
….but I’m sick of injuries!
9 games in
They are tied for 10th in the conference and were as high as 7th early this week. That feels about right to me by the way. There are so many questions when you are counting on a rookie for an important contribution.
But by that standard of 7th-10th, the team is in fact meeting expectations.
I obviously would like to see them do better, but the freakout this morning is just disproportionate and not in alignment with what actually happened.
Right - if you always have low expectations (for your $5M / yr coach)
You’ll always feel good about what he’s doing.
My expectations are for the team
Your reading skills are way down today.
I do appreciate how you always crawl out from under your . .
when someone dares question the quality of your precious coach.
not really a fair arguement
Some teams have a weak schedule and some teams have a hard one. We’ve had a fairly easy schedule and 3-6 is not meeting expecatations. Have you watched the games ? The team has looked horrible so far and except in the GS game, the opposition has just been worse, we haven’t been much better.
At a loss for words
Trying to shut down the whole operation for a time, take a break while Gordon is out. Just amazing, trying to be a fan of this team.
No worries. It’s a long season. Has to get better than this.
You know when Zhiv's post are so short...
…that something’s wrong. He’s gone below-deck, vomiting in a bucket, praying for daybreak.
SP When is it time?
I know some of you are indignant about the coach, and you know, I want to be too. After all, there are only so many options an organization has in mid-season. It’s pretty hard to swap out the entire team. So people yell and scream for the coach to be fired.
But I’m hard-pressed to know what the guy did wrong in this game. Was he the one missing 16 fourth quarter shots while making only 3?
I work for an 8 Billion dollar company, due to the lack of double digit growth our CEO retired. It wasn’t his fault that the economy tanked but we are in a results driven business and even though you have made billions for your company and share holders it expected that you continue the trend.
When is it appropiate to replace a GM/Coach who is not producing? Although it’s not his fault, he is still expected to produce results which have been lacking.
When is it time?
It’s long past time. I wrote several times last year that any normal organization would have fired this coach long ago.
But it’s not interesting to write that every day. And if it didn’t happen last April, I have no reason to expect it will happen today.
The point of last night’s recap was to say, in the microcosm of one game against the Thunder on Nov. 11, I saw little to no evidence that the coaching was the problem.
But he should of course have been fired a long time ago. Only thing is, he wasn’t.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 12, 2009 2:38 PM PST up reply actions
But your point is only that he should be fired because other teams
in similar situations fire their coaches. Do you personally think he should be fired?
Not sure why that matters...
but I’ve also been over this many times. The question is far more complex than most people want to admit. Who is the replacement? In this “me, personally” world where I have the power to decide his fate, do I also get to pick the new guy? Am I paying the new salary out of my pocket?
But sure, me personally, I would have fired him long ago. Hell, there’s only so many things you can do, and firing the coach is one of them. It’s been three seasons of suckitude. Let’s try something different.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 12, 2009 9:43 PM PST up reply actions
I still don’t see why you would fire someone even when you know it’s not his fault. That just seems sort of like a move George Steinbrenner would make and a little childish.
And if you are keeping score, I work for a $52B dollar company
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions
Steinbrenner
The Yankees reference is a bit out of place after they just won yet another World Series isn’t it?
I’ll take Steinbrenner’s childishness over anything Sterling has to offer me every single day of the week and twice on Sundays.
And I think we can all save the "I work for X company" comments
It’s completely irrelevant. Sterling has more money than every single one of us put together. So?
A good business model clearly doesn’t make for a good basketball team.
If you guys want to flex your business models, it’s probably more impressive elsewhere.
On an NBA blog, it really means ZILCH.
Ya, I agree on the I work for X comment. My motivation on that one was sarcasm….
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions
Actually, in the example, I meant to say that firing the CEO who sqrebck acknowledges is not at fault seems misplaced. From the example above, the dude seems to have gotten scapegoated, which sucks.
But ya, good point about the W.S and all. And I certainly agree I’d rather have Steinbrenner than DTS.
by Michael White on Nov 12, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions
You go to war with the owner you have
I’ll never understand those that council ignoring the Clippers’ history in evaluating Dunleavy. He isn’t working in a vacuum.
Childish as it may seem
World Series titles 2009 • 2000 • 1999 • 1998 • 1996 • 1978 • 1977
AL Pennants 2009 • 2003 • 2001 • 2000 • 1999 •1998 • 1996 • 1981
1978 • 1977 • 1976
East Division titles 2009 • 2006 • 2005 • 2004 • 2003 • 2002 • 2001 • 2000 • 1999 • 1998 • 1996 • 1981 • 1980 • 1978 • 1977 • 1976
Steinbrenner has produced winners by making moves.
Oh please
he produced winners by spending 200 Million dollars in a league where the average payroll is 100 Million. And most of the time they spent the money badly, and they were lucky enough to overcome those bad decisions because of their resources. Only the Red Sox could afford to make so many bad mistakes and not have it cripple the payroll.
How will you apply this position to the Clippers?
You failed to refute his point.
The Clippers can’t just outspend to cover up the keep making random moves until it magically falls into place position you are agitating for because of the NBA salary cap, though this wouldn’t apply to coach and GM.
The Clippers can’t just outspend to cover up the keep making random moves until it magically falls into place position you are agitating for at the coach and GM level because Sterling is the owner.
Because of the constraints in place because of the cap and ownership, it becomes MORE imperative that the move you select to make is correct. Not less.
Moves for the sake of moves here is self-destruction. You will be firing a former coach of the year and executive of the year while in the middle of a planned rebuilding phase.
I just pass.
The Clippers can’t just outspend
Why can’t they?
The Lakers, Jazz, Celtics, Knicks, Spurs, Magic, Cavs, Wizards, Mavericks, and Rockets do.
DTS could spend all his money but we will never win with Dunleavy.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
You guys do know
that baseball does not have a cap and basketball does? DTS could not spend all his money.
unless....
he spends some of that money on a new coach
by baron davis' beard on Nov 12, 2009 4:05 PM PST up reply actions
Oh to be as simple and myopic a person as Jax
Unfortunately, I can’t be.
I know, you're sooooooo smart - you tell us that every day
You’ve been advocating keeping MDSr every year. You were sure right with that one. Very smart.
So to summarize your position
The Yankees have won their one world series in 9 years by moving pieces around at random with no regard for what actually matters?
Bizarre, but ok.
It matters
Because their methods cannot be replicated. So to advocate behaving like them is irrational.
This guy was telling me
That Ricky Rubio is too slow and thus his game is more suited to isolations.
So…yea…
ugh....
These are facts that he does not have NBA Speed, and his strength is seen in isolation plays. Just cause you can run ISO’s in high school/college ball doesn’t mean you can in the NBA.
Of course Madglove doesn’t think a kid that has a Contract, enters a draft to get another contract. Works out a deal to satisfied Contract 1 and Contract 2, but instead leverages Contract 2 to get traded to a new team to satisfied Contract 1 and starts a new 6 year deal with Contract 3 has a character flaw.
Teams go over the salary cap all the time, and teams that spend more have more sucess generally.
Just because DTS won’t do it, doesn’t mean they can not.
Tell you what kid.
Go do the homework that John R assigned, then come back after you’ve actually learned how THIS league works.
Then your completely self-contradicting comments about basketball can be taken more seriously (not actually taken seriously…just more seriously than they are now).
There are no contradictions that exist, it is documented by various scouting reports and articles that Rubio’s strength is found in Isolation plays and lacks NBA Speed and Strength. Is this not true?
DTS is a problem, and in most cases will not spend more; however a team can get around the salary cap a la Mark Cuban. (Which is also documented)
But I don’t expect you to address either because you would rather spout out unsubstantiated opinions then look at documented information by various new agencies and experts in the field.
"I work for a $52B dollar company"
Wal-Mart ??
I hate Butler
I also think that the team just isn’t as good as the expectations. When Chris Kaman is by far the best offensive option on the team, that team is in trouble. We didn’t have Gordon our best player, we didn’t have Griffin who should become our best player. Our best player took 26 shots and shot less then 40%. How were we not supposed to lose this game? Only because the Thunder were even worse was this a close game. At this point, the Clippers are not a good team. They still might become one, but they are not right now. Once Gordon comes back, then Griffin, it will only be a matter of time before Kaman goes down. I can’t remember the last time a Clipper team had their five best players on the floor at the time for more then a month.
This is just a rant and serves no other purpose.
Yeah we're definitely not playing up to the expectations
But those expectations were heavily weighed by having Griffin in the lineup. Then take Eric (our best player) out of the equation and this team drops below mediocrity. We’re actually very lucky to have Kaman playing as good as he’s been. If Al and Butler could play more consistent we actually might survive this month until EJ is back and then move forward when Blake returns.
Butler certainly has to take the Thornton approach and stop chucking shots. He’s clearly in a shooting slump and this team can’t afford to allow him to shoot his way out of it.
by dulciusEXasperis on Nov 12, 2009 5:31 PM PST up reply actions
Butler is a Brick, he is our replacement Tim "Brick" Thomas,
now I see why NOH traded for a 2016 2ND. Round Draft Pick for him.
We got ripped off.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
One of those Guys that lit us up when he played us but stinks when he plays for us.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
I was afraid Smith was going to be that way
but he’s been solid for us.
by dulciusEXasperis on Nov 12, 2009 5:32 PM PST up reply actions
Ugh
We can pretty much kiss the possibility of LeBron signing with the Clips goodbye. There’s no way he’d join this cursed, dysfunctional group! And the same can probably said for 90% of the other players that are going to be free agents next summer. We only get has-beens and draft picks who leave as soon as they get the chance.
Whether or not last night’s loss is Dunleavy’s fault, he should fire himself for the team’s pitiful performance and prove to the team that there’s consequences for not getting the job done.
DeAndre for MFP - Most Funniest Player
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