Let's Talk About the Clippers' Coach - Again
When an ordinary game recap in which I said that a fourth quarter collapse wasn't the coach's fault spawned over 300 comments, it was pretty obvious that this was a collectively raw nerve for the Citizens of Clips Nation. Some citizens are even questioning whether my beautiful, wonderful, precious media credential has blinded me to the reality of the situation and turned me into the mouthpiece of the organization, for fear that I might become persona non grata in Playa Del Rey. All in all, it seems a situation screaming out for a front page post, maybe even one of my extra-special thousand worders.
But for some reason, I feel like I've covered this territory before. I wonder why? Oh that's right. Because I have. Here and here and here. That's over six thousand words on Mike Dunleavy Sr. as coach of the Clippers written from December 2008 to April 2009 (I know, I counted them). And that's just three posts. There were others, if you care to look.
In re-reading these posts, I am bemused by the notion seemingly held by some citizens that I am an apologist for MDsr, that I have somehow been on the fence regarding his employment status or perhaps even a supporter of retaining him. I try to be even-handed, I try not to be shrill and I have plenty more to say about the Clippers such that I don't have to dwell on the coaching situation. But neutral? Here's what I wrote in February before the All Star break:
All I can say is what I would do. I would do something. This has been going on long enough.... I think you have to make a clean break. That means Dunleavy is gone.
Is that clear enough for everyone as to what my opinion is?
But it's just my opinion, and the simple fact is, he's not gone. Moreover, it's not black and white, because nothing ever really is. When I look through the greys, I draw a conclusion. But it doesn't mean I'm right. It's also true that you have to take the current information into account. I certainly would have made the change last February. I certainly would have made the change in April. Would I have done it after the OKC loss? How about after the Golden State win, five days earlier? They've been through another training camp, they're nine games into the season. He's still the coach, and it doesn't make sense to overreact to individual game performances.
In April I made the historical argument, looking at the team's performance over two seasons and other analagous teams in NBA history. The bottom line is that MDsr is in some pretty dubious company at this point, still with the same team after coaching them to a .256 winning percentage over two full seasons. Almost any other organization in the NBA would have already fired the guy. But who knows? Maybe they would all have been wrong.
There's the very real question of how much the coach controls - if the players are bad, no coach is going to change that. Not to mention the question of finding a replacement. There were a record number of firings last season - organizations getting rid of their coaches because the team was playing poorly, ostensibly in the hopes of playing better. How'd that work out for those teams?
CalvinKenny Natt, Kings, 11-47 last season, gone;- Ed Tapscott, Wizards, 18-53 last season, gone;
- Kevin McHale, Wolves, 20-43 last season, gone;
RonTony DiLeo, Sixers, 32-27 last season, gone;- Lionel Hollins, Grizzlies, 13-26 last season, 1-8 this season;
- Scott Brooks, Thunder, 22-47 last season, 4-4 this season;
- Jay Triano, 25-40 last season, 4-4 this season;
- Alvin Gentry, 18-13 last season, 8-2 this season.
Half the replacements last season were truly interim - in place until the end of the season, when a real coach could be hired. Which, if you subscribe to the 'coaches matter a lot' school of thought, is a terrible solution - let's knowlingly waste three-fourths of the season with a head coach who clearly is not in our future plans. Only two of the eight interim coaches had winning records after taking over the team - not surprisingly, the two who were taking over 07-08 playoff teams. One of them is now gone. The other took over a team that had a winning record when he took the job. Oh, and doesn't that name seem familiar? He's 8-2 this season. This Gentry guy must be a pretty good coach. Too bad the Clippers can't hire him.
At any rate, the closest thing to a success story on that list is Scott Brooks. Jay Triano had a worse winning percentage than Sam Mitchell whom he replaced, and the roster has been completely revamped this year, so it's disingenuous to credit an early 4-4 record to his coaching. As for Brooks, the team played better under him, that much is clear. But for the 'coaches don't matter, players matter' argument, he does have some great young talent, and it would make sense that team would improve as they develop and mature. It's certainly way too early to say that Scott Brooks is a great coach, or even a significant upgrade over P.J. Carlesimo for that matter.
The Hornets fired Byron Scott yesterday. If you want fuel for the fire in the 'coaches matter/coaches don't matter' debate, you don't need to look much further than the list of Coach of the Year winners. Gregg Popovich is the only guy on that list still with the team where he won the award - and most of those guys were fired within a couple seasons of winning, leading some to talk of a COY Curse. (Oh, hey look at that. Mike Dunleavy Sr. is a former COY.) Will the Hornets be better off under Jeff Bower with help from Tim Floyd? And should they maybe have checked with their franchise player before making a hasty move? (Of course the irony here is that Scott's 3-6 Hornets waxed MDsr's 3-6 Clippers on Monday, but that's another story.)
So that's the reality of making a mid-season coaching change - it's not a great solution. This is one of those grey bits. If you fire the coach, who is the coach? Of course, it's extra-complex with the Clippers, since MDsr is the coach and the GM.
A big reason I didn't want to get into this at this time is because nothing has really changed. If the Clippers didn't fire MDsr last season, why would we expect them to fire him this season? And it's tedious making the same old arguments if nothing has changed.
Why didn't the Clippers fire him last season? It's impossible to know for certain, but we know several potential reasons, and we know the official story. The official story revolves around words like 'stability' and 'loyality' and especially 'injuries'. So if the Clippers didn't fire MDsr last season because they valued stability and loyality and because they did not hold him responsible for the team's poor performance because of injuries to key players, then how is this season any different? Blake Griffin has yet to play a game - I'd call him pretty key. And Eric Gordon has now missed two with at least five more coming up. So the injury excuse is in full effect. Do they value stability less? Are they less loyal? If the Clippers were to make a change now, they'd look like hypocrites.
Of course, that doesn't mean they won't. And they may or may not care if they look like hypocrites. Of course, those likely weren't the real reasons in the first place. It remains highly unlikely that the notoriously parsimonious Donald T. Sterling is going ask MDsr to walk away from the most lucrative coaching contract in franchise history. Not with attendance way down. Not with $2.7M settlements to pay. The injuries to Griffin and Gordon give the coach and the organization very convenient cover to stay the course.
So something else has to change. It's not enough for the team to play poorly as they did against the Hornets and Thunder. We've been there, we've done that and the coach remained. It's also not enough for the players to appear to quit on the coach. Not that it has appeared that way so far this season, but it certainly did for most of the second half of last season, and no change was made, so that would not seem to be enough. (David West's comments about Byron Scott are interesting in this case.) So until something else happens - perhaps an open conflict between the coach and one or more players - there's no reason to expect a change.
Actually, there is one thing that's different this season. Unlike last year, where the default interim coach was Kim Hughes or Jim Eyen, with no head coaching experience, we now have John Lucas on the bench, who recently confessed to wanting to be a head coach again. But given that Lucas took the job partly as a favor to his friend Dunleavy, it might be awkward for the Clippers or Lucas to make that change without the current coach's buy in. I've wondered before if perhaps MDsr was self-aware enough to have hired his own replacement when he brought in Lucas - in his role as GM, to have given the team a fall back in case they continued to underperform with the current coach. Is it possible that GMMDsr would kick himself upstairs and hand the reigns to Lucas?
So there, I wrote about it all again. And I mostly said a bunch of stuff I've said before. And I don't expect anything to change. And maybe the team will play great when Gordon and Griffin come back and we'll all be happy that they kept MDsr. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.
I hope they still let hang around in Playa Del Rey.
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126 comments
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Comments
Very well-said. Can’t argue with anything. At all. Except that I believe it was “Tony DiLeo” and “Kenny Natt”, not Ron and Calvin.
by Vic De Zen on Nov 13, 2009 11:53 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
See, there you go
That’s how meaningless and insignificant these interim guys are. I can’t even be bothered to get their names right. I know where I got Calvin – no idea where Ron came from. thanks
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 13, 2009 11:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ron DiLeo
amityville horror murderer who killed his whole family
by old666 on Nov 13, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Even so
That might be where the name came from. Negative transference. Not that I’m an Amityville horror buff, but I did reference it in a recent post.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 13, 2009 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
it possible that GMMDsr would kick himself upstairs and hand the reigns to Lucas?
I’m not sure if there is any precedent in basketball, but I can think of a recent example in college football. Mike Belloti had been the head coach of the University of Oregon football team for a while, then stepped aside last offseason to become athletic director and allow his succesor Chip Kelly to become coach. Belotti got to keep doing what he was good at (recruiting) while pushing the day to day management to Kelly.
Not sure if Dunleavy would consider it, but just pointing out there is a recent precedent for that sort of thing.
by Michael White on Nov 13, 2009 12:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Pat Riley
Pat Riley has actually done it twice in Miami, but it hasn’t always been handled well. He handed the reigns to Stan Van Gundy, then took them back, then to win another ring, then handed off to Eric Spoelstra.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 13, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course.
Whoops, I can’t believe I forgot about that. Thanks.
by Michael White on Nov 13, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe something temporary, mixing things up
I was going to take a break for a few games and let Gordon heal, but I just can’t quit the f***ing Clippers. Very quiet in the Club right now, just trying to keep the place tidy. Nothing worthy of dispute, nothing exceptional to be done, have to stay the course. I don’t even have the consolation of a funky Memphis team tearing it up—they’re even worse than the Clippers. But they’re the funk.
But wacky Don Nelson always intrigues me, and I was remembering how he had one of his relatively anonymous assistant coaches, a guy he likes who works within his system, who he wanted to highlight and give experience to, coached GSW in the preseason game against the Clippers. It wasn’t a big deal, and it has probably happened a fair amount in the past—it’s the preseason. And coaches miss games at different times for different reasons.
It makes me think: what if CMDSr were to take a break, just a game or two off, and let Lucas coach the team and see what happens? It’s MDSr’s team, he’s the GM, he runs the organization and coaches the team, but there’s no reason why he couldn’t plug a valuable asset like Lucas (or Kim Hughes, for that matter) into the mix just to change things up.
Won’t happen. Dunleavy has the look of an old salt, a Captain Bligh, a man who is steering directly into the storm once again but he’s determined to go down with the ship and all hands. He’s still going to enforce his discipline, run his schemes, do it his way, for good or ill. By Thanksgiving he might have Gordon back, he might not. In early December Griffin will return.
It’s just another stormy passage. We’ve been through them before.
by citizen zhiv on Nov 13, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice to have you back, Zhiv...
It was getting all dark and murky in here.
by swamigusto on Nov 13, 2009 1:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
On the Nelson example
Yeah, he probably just didn’t want to the leave the great dive he found.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dun did this very thing in Milwaukee
He was VP of Basketball Ops and head coach in 95-96, then gave up the position of head coach for a bit. Then he left to take the head coaching job in Portland in 97.
by madglove on Nov 13, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Huh.
I did not know that. Interesting.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 13, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And then?
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We won't know until we try it
That’s why it’s so scary, huh
by Jax on Nov 13, 2009 10:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dunleavy is dumb...as many people profess
The guy is actually pretty intelligent.
Is there any doubt that he didn’t realize what could potentially happen if he hired Lucas?
Like you stated, if anything the guy was hedging.
by Newtybar on Nov 13, 2009 12:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
At the very least
He did it to beef up his staff, and help in areas where he couldn’t, reaching the younger players, or just the players in general, getting them to buy in, motivating them.
It’s crazy, we have two really solid assistants in Hughes & Lucas. Will be interesting to see how this all develops.
by ghost_ride on Nov 13, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Intelligence
I have no reason to believe that Dunleavy is not book intelligent. Where I believe his intelligence is lacking is in “street smarts”, and I feel this deficiency is the cause of some highly perplexing and untimely in-game decisions. Non-game coaching requires book intelligence in order to be able to break down film, compile scouting reports, etc. I have no idea how well Dunleavy does these things but since I am assuming he is book intelligent I’ll concede that he does the non-game coaching well. However, in-game coaching is a different animal. It requires flexibility and being able to think one one’s feet (street smarts.) Too often I have seen Dunleavy react too late (timeouts, substitutions, play calls) to an opponent’s adjustments and a 5-point halftime lead has quickly become an 8-point third quarter deficit. Last season we were the worst second-half (of games) team in the league. I could be wrong, but my theory is that other coaches are able to successfully implement halftime and 3Q changes whereas Dunleavy seemingly cannot.
As shocking as this may sound to some, I want to see Dunleavy succeed. I really do. At the end of the day, however, I just don’t believe that Dunleavy is the right man for the bench due to his perpetual in-game floundering.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 13, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So
You concede your name is, in fact, false?
Classic.
It doesn’t shock me that you would claim you want to see Dunleavy succeed. You will have to forgive those those that may not believe you after you declared that your raison d’etre was that people didn’t hate Dunleavy enough.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 1:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He won't answer
But I will. He’s basi8cally a scared little kid, afraid of what the big bad world might bring if things change. No matter how bad things might be now.
Either that or MDSr’s his dad.
by Jax on Nov 13, 2009 10:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
you think
john r plays for the pacers?
interesting… that must be why he knows so much about everything.
and he’s oh so eloquent.
by baron davis' beard on Nov 13, 2009 10:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dumbo has another kid...
who goes to USC…comes to games and sits on the edge of the bench…really ugly kid but hey, at least his dad’s a genius…
by Dow Jones on Nov 13, 2009 11:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A good post...
Nicely done. The estimable Steve Perrin proves there’s little value in throwing in the towel and hiring just anybody in the middle of the season. But it isn’t the middle of the season… it’s the beginning of the season. What changed for the Hornets in the first eight games? That they lost five of them? Would it have been different if they won one more or one less? Firing a coach in November is a symptom, not a solution.
by swamigusto on Nov 13, 2009 12:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
GM Mike Dunleavy Sr. should grant himself a "Leave of Absence" as Head Coach ASAP.
For 10 games or so depending of how we do with whoever takes the Clippers Rutter.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
by HVYDRT007 on Nov 13, 2009 1:04 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The trap being
If the team does worse (I realize you don’t believe this to be likely, but humor me), didn’t you just do a bad job as GM?
Case 1: Team does well, CMDSr sucks.
Case 2: Team doesn’t do well, GMDSr sucks.
I realize some with find this trap to be a feature and not a bug.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 1:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well we are 3-6 to start 2009-10 we won 19 2008-09 and 23 2007-08 how much worse can it get?
Look at the numbers we are on a downward spiral and this injury’s excuse is REAL OLD now.
How about the Coaching/Training Staff Excuse?
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
by HVYDRT007 on Nov 13, 2009 1:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Neat, that doesn't address what I said
You suggested that he give himself a leave of absence to see how the team does. I demonstrated why that is no win for him.
Though going with youth and cap space for the future is no win for him. It hasn’t stopped him from doing that, so we’ll see. Maybe he is just the most righteous guy on the planet.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I could give a Rats Ass about him, I only care about the Clippers Team and getting W's
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
by HVYDRT007 on Nov 13, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Am I speaking latin here?
So much hate is damaging reading comprehension.
You could substitute any name for Dunleavy in the comments I made and the result would be the same.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
John is suggesting to do nothing and rearrange the deck chairs as the team sinks into the depths of Blake Superior.
by sqrebck on Nov 13, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He's not (at least here) suggesting any course of action
he is responding to the poster who said what Dunleavy should do.
His point is that he won’t do that because it’s not in his best interest.
by Michael White on Nov 13, 2009 1:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
People are pissed.
Everybody knows Dunleavy isn’t stepping down or will be fired.
Let us vent and have the Dunleavy is gone fantasy.
BTW John has suggested no course of action but rather plays the devil advocate for a guy everybody is mad at.
and to SP’s point “…maybe the team will play great when Gordon and Griffin come back and we’ll all be happy that they kept MDsr” but today MDsr he is the villian and people want him gone.
by sqrebck on Nov 13, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Who is playing devil's advocate?
That would imply that this isn’t my real position.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
MDSr. should do what helps the team and if he won't then he should get the Boot.
Hate has no power in this but Common Sense, now that’s something is it not?
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
by HVYDRT007 on Nov 13, 2009 2:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it broken?
Its 3-6. They had one nasty loss and then an unfortunate one. Just because the world is in a tizzy doesn’t mean I am. A normal free throw shooting night and the Clippers are 4-5 having beaten one of the best teams in the league so far. They have a blow out under the belt for the first time in a long time. Its funny how people will council ignoring small samples when its not the Clippers, but for the Clippers one loss is THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT.
Steps to fix the team:
Get the kids playing time – Check except for injuries
Stay the course for using the trade assets and cap space – DON’T FREAK OUT
2008-2009 IS NOT THE GOAL
When did this get forgotten?
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude we had 3 blow out road wins last season and we sucked too.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
by HVYDRT007 on Nov 13, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought the goal is to be a good team to attract LeBron in 2010.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.-1984 George Orwell.
by tomkanti on Nov 13, 2009 7:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OKay....
now you really are starting to freak me out….John R is probably some lackey assistant in the Clippers front office who is trying to calm down a growing storm and legitamize a disastrous start of the seaon (which, lest we forget ACTUALLY WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A COMPETITIVE YEAR FOR ONCE)
by Dow Jones on Nov 13, 2009 11:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Calm down?
You think this is how you calm people down? If that’s John R’s mission, I don’t think he’s doing it very well.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 16, 2009 12:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you care? I thought your thesis was that coaches don't matter
Seriously – under your own thesis, nothing different would happen whether he stays or goes.
Given your thesis, why are you so scared of jumping off the abyss?
Come on. Tell us. I dare you.
by Jax on Nov 13, 2009 10:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well at least this could prove out that
GMDsr should be fired….
solves one problem.
by Newtybar on Nov 13, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The only reason we're still talking about MDSR is because he wasn't let go last year
like he should have been. There’s no time like the present.
by eastie Rich on Nov 13, 2009 1:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
exactly….. but you can’t fire the coach for not meeting expectations because your expectations are probably to high anyways.
Anyways, I am going to start blaming Don MacLean for not sharing his steroids with the players.
by sqrebck on Nov 13, 2009 1:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Prior to last year I was hoping for 33 - 35 wins. Why am I hoping for the same this
year? Hmm.
by eastie Rich on Nov 13, 2009 1:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think this is acheivable and your expectations will be met...
maybe mine were too high.
by Newtybar on Nov 13, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dunleavy just step down
The longer dunleavy stays on this team the longer he is just embarrassing himself. At
staplesthe chants of fire Dunleavy are getting louder and now after the game they are chanting it outside when Michael Eves is broadcasting after the game. He must go to
sleep everynight thinking that he’s a failure. Do it for the team or do it for the fans or even
do it so you can get a good night sleep. Step down and go quietly into the night.
by ENCUEROMAN on Nov 13, 2009 2:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Marc Stein on Dun's situation
He addresses Dunleavy’s status in the latest Weekend Dime.
One source plugged into Clipperland insists that owner Donald Sterling has already flirted seriously with the idea of dismissing Mike Dunleavy immediately, even though prized rookie Blake Griffin’s debut has been put on hold because of his recent knee injury and despite the fact that Dunleavy is still owed $5 million next season on top of this season’s $5 million.
by madglove on Nov 13, 2009 2:24 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
+1
good read…
One trusted source we consulted this week suggests that Dunleavy could leave the bench and still retain his front-office gig, given that several of his recent roster moves — drafting Eric Gordon, foisting Zach Randolph on Memphis for a nice chunk of cap space next summer and stealing Rasual Butler from the salary-dumping Hornets — have been excellent. Instead of paying Dunleavy to leave, Sterling would appear to have the option of keeping him as personnel chief, since Dunleavy and Lucas are long-time pals and could presumably co-exist in a GM/coach relationship.
Yet another trusted source, however, says Dunleavy wouldn’t accept serving as GM only, which only muddles the picture further.
by sqrebck on Nov 13, 2009 2:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well that sucks
“Yet another trusted source, however, says Dunleavy wouldn’t accept serving as GM only, which only muddles the picture further.”
by Newtybar on Nov 13, 2009 2:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
do you think Marc Stein trused source is Clipsnation?
by sqrebck on Nov 13, 2009 2:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Could Be? Who knows at this point but it looks like DTS has a itchy trigger finger.
I think the fact that BG has not played is the only reason MDSr. has not got the Boot.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
by HVYDRT007 on Nov 13, 2009 3:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Under pressure
Hmmm. A bit hard to read what’s happening here. When in doubt, go with core philosophy: do nothing.
Some notes: Bill Simmons singles out Dunleavy, and his failure to use Steve Novak against OKC, as the only person who is keeping his sports hate alive. Quick and handy how that worked out. Simmons loves the Clippers, loves Blake Griffin and Eric Gordon, has all the same issues with Dunleavy as many others around here, and when everything else goes wrong (Kobe, ARod, and Peyton Manning all successful), Dunleavy happens to be in the tank. Just a note.
Byron Scott gets fired. It seems like a very different situation than what’s going on with the Clippers. This was probably discussed in the other thread. SP notes the David West comments, talking about pride and predictability, and it’s interesting to read those comments next to the Chris Paul version. I happen to think that Chris Paul is being less than truthful, and trying to help his image by saying he was one of the last to know, how Scott was a mentor, etc. This wouldn’t have happened if Chris Paul didn’t want it to. End of story.
So it’s worth comparing that version to the Clippers situation. Baron Davis thought he might be playing a Chris Paul role last year, taking over the team, but then he forgot that he had to back up the authority he craved with performance on the court. Et voila, Baron reconciles with Dunleavy, wants to work hard and stay in LA, takes some responsibility. So the primary figure on the team who might be against the coach was co-opted, to a certain degree. BDavis has enough to worry about with his own play and productivity before he can start blaming things on the coach.
Nobody else on the team has the authority to challenge Dunleavy in any way. The fact is that, as SP pointed out in his initial post, the players have plenty to criticize and address in their own play. They had plenty of opportunities to make plays.
It’s actually pretty amazing, and a legitimate mind bender. You would think that the injury excuse would run out, or the injuries would end, that it wouldn’t be possible to sustain this kind of pain, misery, and disillusionment. Something’s got to give, right?
Well, this is where the Club Optimism magic ring starts up with a faint glow once again, remembering that the “something” was winning the lottery, that Blake Griffin will return in December, that the Clipper roster is strong and problem areas have been addressed. It’s about the longterm, about the last 60 games and not the first twenty, especially under the circumstances. It’s not going to be what it might have, in the best case scenario, but it’s going to get better. The problem is that it’s not going to get better this weekend or next weekend. It may get worse, although that’s hard to imagine. Will the Clippers, against a tougher schedule and not having figured out how to win yet, be able to play .500 ball over the last 60 games? That’s 30 wins plus the 3 they have plus whatever they can muster over the next 10-12. Whatever.
So, back to the core philosophy. Do nothing. Sometimes it’s just hard.
by citizen zhiv on Nov 13, 2009 3:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Is that Club Optimism's core philosophy?
by madglove on Nov 13, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not speaking for Zhiv, but I would say the long view is always a part of CO
This year is not the goal. When did that get forgotten? This is a team in transition.
I feel like just yesterday you were advising building the team through the draft and going with youth and targetting the prime of Rubio/Gordon/Griffin.
May I be so bold as to blockquote?
My contention is that the team needs to focus on putting the right pieces around Eric Gordon and Blake Griffin. Those two are our core and because they’re so young, we have the time and resources to build a contender around them to ensure that 1) we make the most of the talent that we have, and 2) to make sure that neither want to leave as free agents when the time comes. The idea is similar to what the Thunder are doing around Durant.
What changed?
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing at all. So?
Do you think my position on Dun contradicts that quote in any way? I absolutely agree that all the personnel moves should be made with an eye towards the future.
How does keeping or firing Dun have any bearing on that whatsoever? You make all sorts of excuses for him, claim he’s not doing a poor job, claim the team is executing well, etc. But I couldn’t disagree more. And at best all you can say is that you don’t feel like you can can say he is failing or he isn’t.
But beyond where you stand and where I stand, I think we can both agree that he’s not doing a “great” job right? Particularly given your position that players matter much more than coaches, how does firing Dun hurt putting pieces around EJ and Griffin?
by madglove on Nov 13, 2009 3:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think my position on Dun contradicts that quote in any way?
I do. It fundamentally goes against it, bordering on impossible to reconcile both positions. The plan isn’t win now, its build around the kids. The coach and GM is building around the kids, but he didn’t win last night so fire him. When building around the kids the most likely outcome is losses in the short term. This contradiction is amplified when the freakout is during a time the two players you want to build around are not available to suit up.
Particularly given your position that players matter much more than coaches, how does firing Dun hurt putting pieces around EJ and Griffin?
I think any new coach and GM is almost certain to be strongly incentivized against that plan. We know GMDSr is on board since its his plan. It should be obvious that the message sent when firing the coach and GM is WIN NOW, otherwise why fire them? Building from the ground up around the kids goes against WIN NOW in any and every situation.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 3:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
When the team looks lost on the court during the 4th quarter, I lose all faith in the guy. If they lost with a purpose, executing a clear plan I would give Dunleavy the benefit of the doubt.
by sqrebck on Nov 13, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You are making my point well
Throwing out the plan based on your perception of a 4th quarter. Very, very, very short-sighted.
On a side note, most people would critique his planning as overplanning and not lacking a purpose. That flavor of detractor would say he holds a singular, repetitive purpose. Its these wild contradictions on the anti-Dunleavy side that add to my questioning of their collective wisdom and instead I see scapegoating rather than sharp analysis of what really went down.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Again
you mention execution. The players didn’t execute the plan. The executing of a plan is done by the basketball players, the drawing of the plan is done by the coach. If your complaint is lack of execution then you are barking up the wrong tree.
Personally, I wasn’t pleased with the lineup to start the 4th quarter (coach’s fault) but I have not really had a problem with the game plans. The Clippers are a horrible free throw shooting team (player’s fault) and against OKC didn’t close out the game by missing wide open looks and layups (player’s fault.) I have to agree with Steve on this one, absent my complaint about the lineup to start the 4th, I don’t see how anyone can watch the first 8 games and say that the coach is the problem.
by Michael White on Nov 13, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Could Dunleavy's Playbook
be too complex for this group? Part of a coach’s responsibility is figuring out what works and what doesn’t. If Dunleavy is consistently drawing up plays that the team can’t execute, shouldn’t Dunleavy receive at least a little bit of blame for not simplifying / trying something new? I think we can all agree that basketball IQ is not this group’s specialty, so perhaps the plays need to be reworked. And yes, players absolutely share responsibility for failed execution. They’re professionals, after all.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 13, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it could be
I don’t really know. I don’t mean to be snarky, but I don’t immediately jump to the conclusion that it is automatically the coaches fault. We’ve seen them miss free throws and layups. We’ve seen Eric Gordon get a 1 on 1 matchup against Amare at the end of regulation and not execute. Again, this is where a few of us are getting confused and it was in Steve’s original point—- why now? I haven’t need anything this year that screams bad coaching.
by Michael White on Nov 13, 2009 5:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not jumping to conclusions
I’m just watching the team play. Watching how they interact with each other. What plays they run.
by Jax on Nov 13, 2009 10:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The team looks lost and as if Dunleavy is speaking Korean.
Many have said that Dunleavy has a great basketball mind, Maybe his knowledge is greater than the team can handle.
by sqrebck on Nov 13, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I am not trying to be sarcastic, I have really heard that Dunleavy has an above average basketball IQ.
by sqrebck on Nov 13, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't blame the players without knowing what the plays are
And if you watch the offensive and defensive sets – they just aren’t very good IMO.
by Jax on Nov 13, 2009 10:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're confusing different arguments
Clearly since you feel free to block quote me from certain past posts of mine, but misattribute other points to me which I never made. I’ve maintained the position that Dun should be fired since last season. So don’t sit there and claim I want him gone because of last night. Or did you forget our debate after the Suns game about lack of execution? If you want to argue with the kids, stick with their arguments. Don’t attribute theirs to me.
It’s laughable for you to claim that my wanting to fire Dun at any point is “bordering on the impossible to reconcile.” That’s just silly. The team out there is not executing and not playing well. The team Dun rolled out last year had the same problems and won 19 games. Because it lucked out and won the lottery doesn’t change the problem that I’ve been seeing with Dun’s teams the last several seasons.
As to your second point, you’re again confusing two theories into one (which is ironic given your statements yesterday about me trying to tie the two hats together). It’s a reasonable assumption that if Dun is fired, there would be a new GM and a new coach…two new individuals. Given this team had the longest tenured GM in recent NBA history, it’s simply unsupportable to claim that firing Dun, after virtually 7 years as de facto GM (a title you gave him and I don’t disagree with) is any mandate to win now at all costs as you’re implying. Further, it’s even more ludicrous to even have any inkling of a thought that any GM with half a brain wouldn’t realize that his best chance of success is to do anything else BUT build around EJ and Griffin.
As for the coach, the mandate is simple…do the best with what you have. Its obviously your position that Dun is doing that. After 5 out of 6 seasons of ineptitude, I beg to differ. Especially after last season.
This topic is hot now because of how poorly the team has played the last 2 games. But your implication that certain people, including myself, simply concocted this idea in the last 48 hours is not only unsupportable, it’s disingenuous. You’ve been around here long enough to know that’s not even the case. For some, sure. But not for everyone. Go lay your blanket statements elsewhere.
Bottom line, your premise is completely wrong. They’re not firing Dun for last night’s game or the game before that. They’d be firing Dun for several seasons worth of ineptitude AND no noticeable change thus far this season.
Your organizational structure may be straight out of the Donald Sterling school of management and you want to “do nothing” in the face of years of futility, but mine, and that of the best teams in the NBA, isn’t. And again, firing an incompetent executive certainly does not hurt the future of EJ or Griffin. Just because you can’t fathom that doesn’t make it irreconcilable.
by madglove on Nov 13, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
I feel like I hit a nerve then.
After 5 out of 6 seasons of ineptitude, I beg to differ.
The Clippers have been inept for 5 out of Dunleavy’s 6 seasons? I find this position to be so unfathomable that we are much farther apart that I thought. I guess if you hold its his fault EB’s and Livingston’s legs exploded, well there is no reasoning with that.
That Suns game though, huh? The Clippers out played the Suns, who turned out to be one of the better teams here in the early going, and lost the game at the free throw line. I’m not sure that stands as evidence the team isn’t executing. Its probably the opposite.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not a nerve
You just made an absurd assertion based on nothing. It’s silly to claim my positions are “impossible to reconcile.”
Way to skirt around the main subjects in your response btw.
- So you think 5 out of 6 lottery seasons have been a success? Keep making excuses for him. It’s notable that the best you can do to respond to my comment is point out two injuries. Did I say he should be fired for those specific seasons? No. It’s called totality of circumstances. 6 seasons. 5 lotteries. More of the same thus far this year. More excuses. You should be his PR guy. Not that you can convince anyone.
- Again missing the point about the Suns game. I brought it up as an example of how I’ve been critical of his coaching BEFORE this last game. You then respond with an irrelevant point. Try to stay on target please.
by madglove on Nov 13, 2009 4:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Again missing the point about the Suns game.
No, no. I didn’t miss it. You just did.
The point there is obviously you have been critical of him at completely inappropriate times. Thus calling into the very fundamentals if you know what you are looking for.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh no
The point of THAT debate was whether they’re executing or not.
The point of the Suns reference RIGHT NOW is not that. Let me try to make it more clear since you can’t keep the arguments straight:
YOU – “The coach and GM is building around the kids, but he didn’t win last night so fire him.”
ME – “So don’t sit there and claim I want him gone because of last night. Or did you forget our debate after the Suns game about lack of execution?”
YOU – “I’m not sure that stands as evidence the team isn’t executing. Its probably the opposite.”
Clearly you’re confused. If you want to believe the Suns game shows how well they execute, that’s up to you. We’re not having that debate. The point is that you claim I want Dun fired based on “LAST NIGHT”. Clearly that’s not true. Whether you think my criticisms in the past are invalid is irrelevant. All that matters right now is that you’re completely wrong that I want him fired for LAST NIGHT’S GAME.
Not surprising that you want to dance around that…since it’s unsupportable. Keep claiming I’m basing my comments on one game…you sound like the kids.
by madglove on Nov 13, 2009 4:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well the underlying point is
You are basing your belief, whenever it started, on a series of incorrect assumptions.
The Suns game was one example of that. Further examples is how criticism, and comment wholly really, of Dunleavy turns on and off like a light switch based on Clippers wins and losses.
Your beliefs about the proper way to build the future of the team leave your expectations for the current season out of whack and firing the coach who is also the GM does put the future of the team in peril if you want to admit it or not. If you want Dunleavy fired based on his performance last year, thats fine. I think its silly but its fine. However, there is nothing about his performance this year that indicates Dunleavy is the problem.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
More blanket statements with no support. There’s “NOTHING” about this year? Ok. If that’s really your position, there’s no point in further debate.
I’m glad at least you’re finally able to understand why your previous response was irrelevant.
Your tired point about on/off criticism is much like those who tried to criticize Steve yesterday. It’s simply not necessary to constantly be talking about it every single time I post, nor is it necessary to legitimize my position to do so. I’ve said he should be fired long ago. Just because I don’t say it every single moment of every single day doesn’t mean my position has changed. It’s really not that difficult to understand.
And if you want to maintain your ridiculous assertion that firing Dun puts the “future of the team in peril” then that’s up to you. I don’t know if I’ve read a more unsupportable comment around here from someone who should know better.
Puts the future of the team in peril… can’t believe you actually wrote that.
by madglove on Nov 13, 2009 4:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course if you know anything about basketball
The Suns game is a perfect example of MDSr’s ineptitude. Once again, he did not tell Ewing to guard the baseline. It’s obvious from watching the play. If he had denied the entry pass to the baseline, the CLippers would have won the game.
Elementary. Yet our coach let us down. That was the beginning of the end.
Why you think a sub .400 coach for six years running can build a winning team is beyond me.
by Jax on Nov 13, 2009 10:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Records
03-04: 28-54
04-05: 37-45
05-06: 47-35
06-07: 40-42
07-08: 23-59
08-09: 19-63
One winning season. .394 winning percentage. You can blame injuries for all of that or none of that, the fact remains: the team has been completely INEPT
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 13, 2009 4:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Your chart doesn’t prove anything.
L2context.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You said the team was not inept
One of the worst winning percentages in the league over the last six seasons says otherwise.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 13, 2009 4:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
Not without context. I mean, to a someone simple enough maybe, but that’s not me.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
John R.
I’m sorry, but you’re about as simple as they come.
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
by Clipper T on Nov 13, 2009 4:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You really have no ability to defend your position.
With you, facts don’t matter, stats don’t matter, you just exist in a black hole of opinion based on your own emotions
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
by Clipper T on Nov 13, 2009 4:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
context as in injuries ? yeah... that makes up for it.
by andrewexd on Nov 13, 2009 4:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Injuries are of course a part
But there is the coach spin up I mentioned elsewhere. Who expected the Clippers to do better than 28-54 in 03-04. Though lets note he did take that team farther than our hero, the Brilliant Alvin Gentry did the years prior.
Better than 37-45 in 04-05? Wasn’t that the year Bobby Simmons won Most Improved? Hey, imagine if only Dunleavy could get the most out of his players! Wait you say Simmons then signed a giant contract and has largely sucked? Oh well.
Noone (except me maybe) predicted their 05-06 record of course, when he, wait, he did work through injury and the loss of Maggette for most of the season.
06-07 was a disappointment to be sure, but 40-42 is pretty fricking far from inept.
07-08 yes injuries. When you lose your best player and 4th best player for the season and you don’t have a 100M payroll that hurts. I know some of you like to pretend that isn’t true, but it is.
08-09 well the less said than that the better.
I count 2 bad seasons and 4 good ones. The two bad seasons were going that way no matter who the coach was.
Context and depth my friends.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why is this so difficult for you?
Here’s the context: there are 30 teams in the NBA, all of whom suffer through a variety of issues. At the end of the regular season, they’re all judged on one thing: record. Ours has been terrible compared to those of the other teams.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 13, 2009 4:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Precisely
While MDsr has been at the helm, we’ve been awful. Does this mean it’s all his fault? No. But if Baron Davis shot 39% from the field over 6 years I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t want to see him on the team… but I digress.
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
by Clipper T on Nov 13, 2009 4:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
A shame that the lost Cassell before that 23-59 season.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Who's "the" ?
Players leave, players get hurt. That’s not a reasonable excuse for such a pathetic record
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
by Clipper T on Nov 13, 2009 4:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That was a direct dig at Idiot
His premise was that because the Clippers turned awful when Cassell departed before 07-08 that proves Cassell was secretly the coach in his fantasy land.
Of course Cassell was a big part of that tragedy and was still on the team for most of that season.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course MDSr was also the GM
Where was the GM’s replacement?
Oh yeah, there wasn’t one.
by Jax on Nov 13, 2009 10:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just answer the guy's questions, my man
And answer these:
1. Do you think MDSr is doing a good job?
2. Since your core thesis is that coaches don’t matter, why are you so passionate about keeping him around?
by Jax on Nov 13, 2009 10:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The message is not WIN NOW
It’s rather a rejection of the view that MDSr can EVER get this team to win.
There is absolutely no confidence in MDSr’s abiltiy to EVER win here. He’s already had six years. HOw much would you give him? 50?
by Jax on Nov 13, 2009 10:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is where we differ
My problem with MDSr is not just that he’s sub .400 (in fact, I’m going to start referring to him as sub .400), but rather WHY he’s sub .400. He’s a terrible game day coach. He’s reactive. His offensive and defensive sets don’t inspire confidence in the players, and he runs an offense that doens’t run well with the players that he has. This is why I’ve always been so skeptical about his ability to ever put a winning team on the floor.
by Jax on Nov 13, 2009 10:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It may be time to relieve mdsr of coaching duties
and have him concentrate on General Manager. Does anyone know if our lottery pick from Minnesota goes unprotected in 2011 or 2012?
by big0lbad on Nov 13, 2009 3:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Great rehash SP...
nothing earth shattering here. Same stuff we have been talking about for what seems like years now.
I just don’t see why people get their panties in a bunch over losing one game….and then blame it on the coach.
As a staunch member of Club Optimism, I am more than willing to hold the fort until Gordon and Griffin get back.
Do or do not. There is no try.
by Clip Show on Nov 13, 2009 3:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your premise...
… (“Dunleavy isn’t likely to be fired so why spend time bitching about it?”) but still believe it should be mentioned in passing.
by DariusN on Nov 13, 2009 4:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
"The overnight Freakout"
Some of us here aren’t simply freaking out due to our loss to the Thunder. A lot of us have been advocating firing MDsr for a LONG TIME. Just feel like that needed to be said.
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
by Clipper T on Nov 13, 2009 4:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Huh
I mean I’m looking over the GSW post game thread and nary a word of criticism and plenty of praise. You will forgive me if I fail to miss the night-to-night status of this advocating.
All credit to the players in victory; all blame to the coach in defeat.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So the GSW game is as far back as you're able to remember?
by madglove on Nov 13, 2009 4:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Its just funny is all
I’ll say it again:
All credit to the players in victory; all blame to the coach in defeat.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, another trend I've noticed is
praise for victories goes to Lucas
blame for losses goes to Dunleavy.
by Michael White on Nov 13, 2009 5:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So...
You don’t recall the countless “coaches matter/coaches don’t matter” discussions from the past? Just because I don’t type the same words every single night doesn’t mean the opinion is new.
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
by Clipper T on Nov 13, 2009 4:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying its new per se
Its just always funny to me.
All credit to the players in victory; all blame to the coach in defeat.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually you are saying it's new
That’s what you’ve been harping on for the last two days. That it’s somehow a new position that Dun should be fired. And your bringing up the GSW game shows that that’s your point.
by madglove on Nov 13, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not that its new
Just that its all over the map.
Look, keep harping on any coach to be fired and eventually its going to happen short of Sloan (or they will bravely run away before trouble happens).
Bringing up the GSW game was fun because, wait, not only did the haters not negatively comment, most of them didn’t even show up that day.
Like its their reason for existing when the Clippers lose.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
John R: "coaches don't matter"
Yet apparently MDSr does.
Wonder why.
by Jax on Nov 13, 2009 10:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're always funny to me
Please give me an instance when I’ve been guilty of your new slogan.
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
by Clipper T on Nov 13, 2009 4:31 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Show me praise of Dunleavy in victory
Equal to that which he received in defeat.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why is it my job to prove your argument?
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
by Clipper T on Nov 13, 2009 4:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
shouldn't that be your responsibility? Or do you not really have an argument?
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
by Clipper T on Nov 13, 2009 4:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You dont have to do anything
You can choose to refute my point if you want. But its not required.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My point is that you don't have a point.
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
by Clipper T on Nov 13, 2009 4:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
You just don't see it
Which is fine.
I’d take a 40 point loss tonight if I knew it meant that Dunleavy would get fired.
by John R on Nov 13, 2009 4:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
okay dude.
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
by Clipper T on Nov 13, 2009 4:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

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