Clippers 101 - Oklahoma City 93 - That Was Different
by Steve Perrin on Nov 15, 2009 8:54 PM PST
in Game Recaps
Email
PrintWhen the Clippers watched a 15-2 third quarter Thunder run turn a twelve point lead into a one point deficit, I was certain that the Clippers would lose this game and lose badly. If you're a Clipper fan and you've watched the last three games, you felt the same way. If you say you didn't, either you haven't been paying attention, or you're a liar.
Instead, the Clippers kept it close, and then actually won the fourth quarter, a very rare occurrence for this team. After three, the Thunder had a one point lead 76-75. But a 25-16 final frame gave the Clippers their second road win of the season and snapped their ugly three game losing streak, 101-93.
The heroes of the game were Chris Kaman and Baron Davis, as they almost have to be until Eric Gordon gets back in the lineup. In the final seven minutes of the game, Kaman and Baron combined to score 13 of the Clippers final 18 points. Baron also came up with a key steal, a key rebound, and assisted on one of Kaman's buckets. Kaman finished the game with 25, and Baron finished with 24.
The Clippers fourth quarter defense was excellent. They held the Thunder to 16 points, and none of them were easy. In fact, several of their scores seemed unlikely in the extreme, contested jump shots late in the shot clock. For awhile it made me think that it was going to be their game, as they seemed to come up with crucial points on broken plays. But in the end, the Clippers got the crucial stops they needed. And unlike in other recent fourth quarters, the Clippers were able to go to their horses without becoming two predictable. Whereas "Iso Kaman on the block" is the play that everyone expects, a Baron-Kaman high pick and roll produced perhaps the most important basket of the game, a layup for Kaman. It's a bonus to get an easy hoop down the stretch of a close game. Moments later, the same pick and roll yielded an open three for Baron that gave the Clippers a four point lead with under a minute left and essentially won the game.
For a change, it was nice to see a team other than the Clippers seemingly forget what had been good to them. Kevin Durant scored 33 points through the first three quarters, and had 38 with well over 8 minutes left to play. But he scored only two more points down the stretch, and took only three more shots, one of those a meaningless three point attempt after the game was decided. Should we credit the defense of the much-maligned Al Thornton? Should we blame the Thunder for simply forgetting about their go to scorer (that seems unlikely)? Or did Durant, who played over 44 minutes in the game and never came out in the second half, this after playing 42 minutes in San Antonio the night before, simply wear down?
Speaking of Thornton, he scored a season high 20 in addition to his fourth quarter defense on Durant. (He did not draw the assignment all game, as the Clippers tag-teamed Durant with Rasual Butler and Kareem Rush taking turns as well.) During one stretch early in the second quarter, with a unit of Telfair, Rush, Thornton, Smith and Jordan on the floor, Al scored seven consecutive points, showing a glimpse of what we thought could be with him as the top scoring threat on the second unit. Of course the injury to Gordon has forced him back into the starting lineup where he may be regaining his mojo. And the play of Rasual Butler may keep him there.
Butler has been disappointing to say the least, although it's possible that our expectations were too high. To his credit, MDsr sees what we see and is actively looking for alternatives. Tonight he went to Kareem Rush, who responded in a big way. He played good defense, taking a charge from Durant shortly after checking into the game, and he also scored his first points as a Clipper, finishing with 9 for the game. His efforts were rewarded with 29 minutes of court time, more than Butler, including all of the crucial fourth quarter minutes.
It's obvious that when you follow one particular team, your impression of the rest of the league is skewed by the way teams perform against your team. And in the case of the Thunder, it's obvious from their performances against the Clippers that Kevin Durant is a great player, but I just don't get it when people rave about their other young 'stars'. Although Russell Westbrook bounced back some in the second half, and had a seemingly impressive statistical line by the end (17 points, 9 rebounds, 7 assists), I don't see how he's helping them win games. Once again he had a miserable shooting night at 5 for 17, and it's pretty clear that he has frequent miserable shooting nights simply because he's a miserable shooter. I'm actually shocked when his jump shot goes in. Westbrook must play better against the rest of the league, because he has never been good against the Clippers. Similarly Jeff Green is an enigma to me. When analysts talk about the young, talented OKC core, Green is always prominently featured. But seriously, what does he do? The dude is a power forward shooting 44% for his career, 44% on the season. Can you afford to have a power forward shooting 44%? He averages 6 rebounds in 36 minutes. Can you afford to have a power forward averaging 6 rebounds? I look at his numbers and I am underwhelmed. I watch him play against the Clippers, and it only reinforces the underwhelminessitude. Isn't Nick Collison actually better - I mean, a lot better - than this guy?
Back to the Clippers. It's great to get a win. With Chris Paul likely to miss Tuesday's game and the hapless Grizzlies after that, it could turn into a little streak. As disappointing as the season has been so far, the super soft schedule may allow the Clippers to climb back into relevance pretty quickly. I mean, at 4-7 they're ahead of New Orleans and only a half game behind Utah, and it's hard to imagine that Houston and Sacramento can overachieve all season. Defense and continued strong play from Kaman and Baron Davis may be able to hold down the fort until Gordon and Griffin get back. If Thornton can find his mojo and guys like Rush continue to contribute, it will be a big plus.
A couple of random final thoughts:
- Coming into the season, Chris Kaman had six career games scoring 25 or more points. This season, he has done so in five of the Clippers first eleven games.
- With the Clippers holding a four point lead and 43 seconds on the clock, the Thunder brought the ball in bounds. Clearly the Clippers did not want to give up a three pointer in this situation. When Thabo Sefolosha drove to the basket, Marcus Camby left Jeff Green standing in the corner. Green happens to be one of the better three point shooters on the OKC roster, and MDsr is clearly seen on the telecast freaking out as Camby leaves him. It was a bonehead play. Kaman was already at the rim to challenge the shot, and the two doesn't hurt nearly as much as the three in that situation. This is one of the challenges of playing Camby at power forward in a league of 'stretch fours'. His instinct, his forte, his raison d'etre is weak side help and shot blocking. He doesn't want to stay home on a shooter behind the three point line. Even coming out of a time out where I'm certain the coach told him to stay home, he couldn't do it. The Clippers dodged a bullet when Green's wide open three didn't fall.
- Durant is a great scorer for many, many reasons, but two of them were clearly evident in this game. One, he's got about the softest touch around. Many of his shots bounced around the rim before falling tonight - he just gets the ball up there on the rim so softly that it seems to have no choice but to go in the basket. The second is that he's tenacious. On three separate occasions the Clippers blocked his shot at the rim... and each time, he got the ball back and scored. "Nose for the ball", "not to be denied"... pick your cliche. The guy is a scorer.
156 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
hey CS, checking in for the first time in forever. Watched the game, pretty unimpressed by OKC.
Loved this:
But seriously, what does he do? The dude is a power forward shooting 44% for his career, 44% on the season. Can you afford to have a power forward shooting 44%? He averges 6 rebounds in 36 minutes. Can you afford to have a power forward averaging 6 rebounds? I look at his numbers and I am underwhelmed. I watch him play against the Clippers, and it only reinforces the underwhelminessitude.
I really don’t understand it. He doesn’t defend the position well, rebound well, shoot well… what is it that makes him good? He even has a below-average PER at 14.7. While PER has flaws, you’d hope that he’d be over league average.
Nice recap.
i cry for nic
yeah, exactly...
And his PER over 10 games this season is better than his PER last year. Seems like he’s just their starting power forward because they don’t have a better option (though I’d call Collison a better option). The idea that he’s a building block for a great team seems ludicrous. He’s no LaMarcus Aldridge, right?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 15, 2009 9:44 PM PST up reply actions
Exactly
Everyone seems infatuated with okc, but the only person I like on the team is durant. Green is an average pf, he’s a huge liability on blocking bigger pfs.
Sadly, okc could had a true pg during the draft, but hey didn’t want to hurt westbrooks’ feelings
by Qlippers on Nov 15, 2009 10:10 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Westbrook overrated, too?
The guy’s athletic, no doubt, and I loved having him at UCLA… but he never was a great scorer, certainly not from the outside, and Collison was always the better point guard. Was anyone else surprised when he went so high in the draft? (3rd or 4th, as I recall). I’m not saying the guy is bad, but in the Clipper games he’s been a liability for his team, and I don’t expect him to ever be all-star caliber.
I disagree
He will be a long time all star in the league in my opinion. He is incredibly quick and an unbelievable athlete (since his days at Leuzinger in the South Bay of LA). You don’t need to be an incredible shooter to be a good pg, and he will learn to shoot better.
I would have drafted him in the low to mid teens
He’ll grow into a more consistent and valued starter, as many first rounders do. He looks like a good fit for the Thunder, too. I’ll be surprised if he becomes a star.
Green is actually a natural SF
which is part of the reason Carlesimo put Durant at the 2, because he didn’t think Green could play the 4. So now Green’s trying to learn how to be a “stretch 4”, hence the uptick in 3s every year. Anyway he’s supposed to be a “do-everything” kind of guy, which is what OKC wanted to compliment superstar-in-making Durant.
As for Westbrook, he’s one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. He’s kind of like Livingston was except with different talents/skill set – you get the feeling that once he “gets it” it’ll be scary.
Green's a tweener...
But yes, I think he’s a better three than a four. Which is why I thought it was strange that they picked them both in the same draft, 2 and 5. In fairness, I don’t think they had a significantly better option. Joakim Noah? That draft had a bunch of young guys who looked good early, but haven’t taken the next step – Brandan Wright, Julian Wright, Thaddeus Young.
I’m actually not that impressed with Westbrook’s defense when I watch him play. He’s got the tools and the reputation, but Baron Davis got a layup in the fourth quarter. In fact, Baron has had probably his two best offensive games of the year against Westbrook.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 16, 2009 8:50 AM PST up reply actions
Both Green & Westbrook have flaws but versatility is key
While Green might be a natural 3 being force-fed the PF position, OKC’s vision with its current personnel, if successful, can be quite scary – complement the developing 1 to 4 superstar with a combo forward who can spread the floor and an explosive combo guard. Just imagine how much of a nightmare it can be for opponent coachs with the various different looks and plays they can throw w/o even making a substitution. Even if Green can’t ever play out of his tweener mold, it doesn’t hurt to have another long player who does a reasonable job of keeping the other team’s defense honest and giving Durant more room to operate.
That said calling those three as if they’re a fixed “core” is a bit of a stretch and sounded more like a marketing gimmick: it’s a quick and easy way to get fans excited about their new team and get themselves noticed by the rest of the league. The core definitely still has holes but it’s evolving; they still need an enforcer/rebounder and another scorer, with Harden as a hopeful to fill the latter role.
Their core to me is; Harden, Green and Durant. With Durant as the star, Harden as the facilitator and Green as the utility man. They just need a big rebounder who can put back points in the paint with high effeciancy and who can be a threat to block shots. They already have their perimeter defender in westbrook but he may be too expensive to keep for that as they should look to hold on too Harden at all cost.
by Takebb909 on Nov 17, 2009 3:30 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
If they
could pick up a true PF this offseason in the free agent market, not even a marquee one, and I think they could move Green to SG, now that would be a solid team. Someone like Millsap or CV31
Still Finding Themselves
I think that Green is going through a similar process as Westbrook and finding himself in his position. However, he still is an effective presence on the floor. His per 36 scoring average last year was 16.2, and he’s keeping that pace this year. Also, his eFG% (adjusted for 3-pointers) is .492.
I think he doesn’t yet realize how effective he can be close to the basket. He’s very quick and a strong finisher, yet he seems to prefer the 3-point shot or jumper. Since our starting C Krstic is really more of a shooting threat from 15-20 ft. I would love for Green to become a chronic low post presence in the Thunder’s offense, rather than continuing to shoot 3-pointers.
As for Westbrook, please keep in mind that in the Los Angeles game in spite of the Thunder’s victory he had by far his worst game of the year. The box score line from the previous game (19 pts – 11 ast – 5 reb – 0 TO) is a much better demonstration of the kind of point guard we truly hope he will develop into.
Thanks for the insight. You guys have a great community and offer a lot of good thoughts. /Brent
www.okcthundercast.com
Entertaining insight into Thunder basketball.
by okcthundercast on Nov 17, 2009 4:21 AM PST up reply actions
…Durant is a much better sg than Green. No?
by Takebb909 on Nov 17, 2009 3:37 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah I definitley had the here we go again feeling with this game
but thankfully this game turned out well. It seems Baron is starting to play better and is seeming more explosive each game, although I don’t think he could do the Kirelinko dunk today. Hopefully the clips don’t underestimate the Hornets too much which is hard seeing as they just fired their coach and their star player is out, but still we need to win Tuesday and Wednesday to make up for the 3 game skid.
In Gordon we trust
wow
Sac is 5-4 and pheonix is number 1 in the division. what is going on.
It was good to get a win
The fan base, the team, the coach, the season are in turmoil at the moment. Its about time we had some luck go our way. Hopefully we put together a few more wins and salvage the season. I dont want to see MDSR fired. I really believe he has been a bright spot for this franchise.
i've been asking myself ONE question seemingly every 4th quarter this season: where is the baron-kaman high S&R?!
it may not seem like big deal, but there are so many more options off a well executed S&R as compared to a low block kaman iso. tonight, to i would hope MDsr’s credit, the clippers executed it and executed it well. with barons dribble penetration, and kamans new found popping abilities it seems like it should be the go-to play in crunch time situations, at the very least to put the defenders on their heels. kaman with a low-block iso is just WAY too predictable, not to mention easily guarded(wait till he puts the ball on the floor and quickly double). its a good play, dont get me wrong, but when the pressure of the game is on the line i’d like baron, or when he comes back gordon, to be the one in charge of running the play and have kaman more as a role playing 2nd option. personally i believe THAT was the difference in the game, a simple well executed S&R. at least the difference between a 26 and 10 pt 4th quarter, but maybe thats just me…
Scares me with Kaman
Hopefully, they’ll run it with Griffin when he’s back. I think Kaman has too much trouble catch the ball on the run and we’ve all seen how he finishes layups.
OKC
Good points on their level of talent. There’s Durant, and then there’s everyone else. Westbrook & Green have their attributes but they are nothing close to complete or dynamic players. It’s also unfortunate for OKC that Westbrook lobbied hard against them taking a point guard in the draft, they could have drafted Tyreke Evans or Brandon Jennings for that matter, to give the team a huge boost at the position and make their prospect much rosier.
Great point
Okc would be very happy with Jennings running the point
by Qlippers on Nov 15, 2009 10:05 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Not to mention that Westbrook could play the 2
by AtotheZ on Nov 15, 2009 10:25 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
But Westbrook was very clear
he does not want to SG, only PG during the draft.
That's genius
listen to a 21 year old instead of making the decision based on team needs. That’s why Presti’s a genius right?
Who needs a point guard, let’s get another wing!
by Michael White on Nov 16, 2009 7:43 AM PST up reply actions
Milph did say that Durant wasn't getting any touches down the stretch.
The team (Thunder) needed to realize that. And the PG needs to realize that to get the ball to the right players.
PG at the time. Westbrook.
Not too mention.
Last Wednesday night, it was a 37 year old Kevin Ollie that killed us. He’s arguably a more “true” point than Wussel Restbrook (thanks, Ralph!).
by Gordon for President on Nov 16, 2009 9:50 AM PST up reply actions
Wussell Restbwook...
That needs to stick.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 16, 2009 10:37 AM PST up reply actions
Ralph did a pretty good job making it stick.
It’s all kinds of awesome.
by Gordon for President on Nov 16, 2009 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
Finally, a Decent 4th Quarter
It’s pretty crucial for us that Baron be able to hit that open 3 pointer that’s in the flow of the game, as he did tonight to extend a 1 point lead into 4, basically leading us to victory late. Al Thornton’s play has also been a huge lift. Hopefully he’s finally starting to realize that he needs to attack the rim as his first option, and shoot the occasional open shot. For all the frustration I’ve layed out on the guy, one thing I do like is that he doesn’t seem to get rattled in crunch time. He had some great offensive boards, and it seems like w/out EJ, we’ve developed somewhat of an offensive pecking order w/ Kaman, BD, Thornton, and then Craig Smith off the bench providing a spark.
Kareem Rush was also somewhat of a revelation tonight, we’ve definitely needed someone to step up and hopefully he can continue to shore up that postion for us.
That 3 was so crucial in the game to take it to that 4 point lead.
I was willing it in as the shot fell. There were plenty of moments during the fourth that I thought we were going ot blow it but credit to the team, they pulled out a good win.
The biggest highlight of the season so far for me personally is how Baron and Kaman are playing in tandem. It may not be textbook stuff but they are getting the job done and the chemistry between the two players is better than any I’ve seen on this team since Cassell was running it during the playoff year.
Craig Smith is also a really nice pickup for us. He’s as tough as, dare I say it, a rhino and brings us something we haven’t had in some physical and mental toughness. He’s definately a guy who brings some energy on the floor also.
Rush fully deserves a mention and nice to see he’s leapfrogged Ricky as someone coming off the bench.
The SF still worries me though. I’ll admit I didn’t see Butler much before this year so was going on his reputation mostly when forming an opinion. Whilst his profile fits the starters better than Al, he’s going to need to step his game up a lot if he wants to keep starting on this team, preferably with some work on his shot.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Competition at SF
At least we now have competition at our weakest position, and everyone is accountable for their play since it’s an open battle for playing time right now. Last year, we handed Thornton the job without any hint of competition, which was a big mistake. Even though Butler has been slumping, his presence has no doubt pushed Al to get better, he has no choice.
Actually
it seems like Al has played much worse now that he’s had to compete for the job.
In fact, while he’s played well these past few games, it is during the time that EJ is out and Al fell back into his starting SF role since Butler moved to starting SG.
Not saying I disagree with your point (competition at SF is probably a good thing) but since Butler and Thornton have both been rather poor thus far, its hard to say that Al has gotten better.
by Michael White on Nov 16, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions
well in AL's defense
(as heard/read)
Al is working hard in practice and other such things to get better and be “explosive” again. That is mainly because he wants that starting spot back.
So while he hasn’t shown it on the court (yet)….he is working on it because of the competition.
And I think it only seems he played worse because he played less. Fact is Thornton is a volume player…more opportunity to score = more scoring….or less and less. As opposed to someone like Gordon, who can do a lot but doesn’t necessarily have to play a lot.
In an ideal world, Thornton should be more like Gordon. But Thornton is who is his, does what he does, and its good at what he does. He just has to remember that….oh and try to be a little bit smarter.
Al's offensive rebs
Given the anemic rebounding efforts by the team so far this season, it is nice to see Thornton display some consistency on the offensive boards. I share your frustration on him as I find myself criticizing him for the same reasons in each of the games I’ve watched. But he deserves significant court time if he can keep up with the offensive boards AND develop a better sense of what to do with the extra possession (i.e. instead of going for his trademark off balance shot that makes us cringe). This is an important attribute especially when paired with Kaman 3.0, whose confidence in taking the mid-range is great but also reduces the team’s odds in getting second chances.
Thornton aside: although the team still lost the rebounding battle yesterday against a relatively thin OKC team, we saw how well the clips can rebound on both ends of the floor in the 4th when they played like the game matters. If Baron’s preseason comments was true and indeed something’s brewin’ with the team, I don’t see why they can’t keep up with the intensity, with or without our 20-yr-old crown jewels.
We won?
I keep rewinding my dvr trying to see if the score was correct.
Good job on just putting AT in position where he can catch the ball closer to the rim and use the kaman “one dribble” rule. I know dunleavy has run alot of plays near the hoop for al, but whatever reason he can’t hit shot. Maybe, it was his conditioning?
by Qlippers on Nov 15, 2009 10:14 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Good start to the road trip
Great way to start the week! We got to keep it up Clips.
My boy Al Thornton is finally getting his “touch” back.
"Success only comes before work inside of a dictionary!"
Come on
Seriously the guy has had so many chances/seasons to produce a winning year. He has failed over and over again.
the best way to explain the scenario would be this quote by Albert Einstein
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
He just isn’t cut out for the job hes gone beyond stale I have no idea why hes still around.
Still gotta fire dunleavy
See if another coach can do anything with these players.
YES & YES
The Clippers should be on a 4 game win streak and not 1 because of 4th quarter collapses. Finally winning one game isn’t great when even the fans assumed the Clippers would blow this game again when it shouldn’t have even been close considering OKC shot terribly. He saved himself for a bit, but he should be fired everyday for everything.
Clippers need a new coach, yes
Will the Clippers get a new coach? probably not.
so we should stop complaining cause there is nothing we can do about. If anything we are making it worse.
I was at the Toronto game. and was VERY disappointed, as well as everyone else. And we know the players/coaches can hear it.
Milph noted that this win is a good win because they don’t have the pressure of playing at home. Isn’t it suppose to be less pressure at home? Well the way the crowd is treating the team when they loose, it feels almost like they can’t wait to leave home. it’s not like they don’t deserve it (the boos/fire dunleavy chants), but maybe we should try being more supportive/positive than hostile/negative?
yeah I've been saying the Clips have no HC advantage....
but nah, it’s a fans duty to give grief when teams are performing horribly.
by Newton Pham on Nov 16, 2009 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
I agree
and the Clippers still haven’t shown much that we should stop from last season….
but there should be a point when we need to be supportive. We are Clippers Fans after all….and we’re gunna be here for a while. Why not make the most of it?
Lakers got booed last night
Losing at home to Houston the Lakers got booed by their fans. I don’t think it’s just an LA thing, but often an effort ability to see miscues that the players apparently don’t. Personally I clap when the Lakers ’eff up.
I clap too
I wonder when was the last time we won a game the same day the Lakers lost a game?
In Gordon we trust
Nice win but
Anytime you need a Baron Davis 3 to win the game, it’s not like you weren’t very close to losing.
On the plus side, Al looked liked a real player again and that’s hopful,
on the negative, It’s necessary if you play Novack to run plays to ger him open looks, he can’t do it on his own.
Based on his subs tonight, MDSR at least tried something a little different but he’s I hope this win didn’t save his job.
I thought had open looks
but the guys on the floor never passed Novak the ball. Maybe he had poor spacing in making himself available or not playing w/ the guy on the floor has something to do with it
I agree on many occasions I saw Novak open behind the line and he was totally ignored..
I thought that was weird.
Maybe that was the play
Maybe MDsr wanted to use Novak as a decoy instead of the play’s primary target for some strange reason.
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Nov 16, 2009 5:24 PM PST up reply actions
The Guy is Money
Novak is money when he shoots. If he’s open, pass him the flippin’ ball. It will certainly keep the defense honest. I don’t know if the rest of the league has a clue as to how well he can shoot. It doesn’t seem that his coach even knows. No playing time untill the last two games, except for last second desparation time???
Decoy? The guy can shoot the lights out…………..Let him!!
After that third quarter, I thought for certain this was going to be another game going into the 'L' column...
Very nice and surprising fourth-quarter finish.
Hopefully they can take this momentum into New Orleans, win a game there, and then finish off the road trip with another one in Memphis.
Being a longtime Clippers fan, I realize that’s probably asking a lot, but I’m feeling greedy after this victory.
I've got nothing.
Better composure tonight
The Clips couldn’t have had more than a couple turnovers in the 4th, and except for BD’s errant pass to Kaman with about a minute and a half left, none of them were of that ridiculous Clipper variety. I was surprised by our cool-headed grit. Let’s see it again.
i love the road blues
there’s already an entry on the clips win on NBA.com including an interview with Kaman titled: Clipper’s Kaman is ready to be a star
I can't see the vid unfortunately
I’d love to check out what Kaman said.
NBA video hates overseas viewers, last time they took me to the China website, this time the videos won’t load at all.
The road jersey looks pretty cool
I didn’t see the game, but it seems like the players finally “got it” to some degree. I think this is a good win. And the defense is getting better, which is good.
Hopefully we can carry this momentum to Nawlins’.
I have always like are alternative road jersey
but we usually don’t where them because there is a bit of a curse to them in past seasons. But that certainly was showing tonight.
In Gordon we trust
Thanks Calderon
Maybe Dunleavy heard or read his post-game interview when he said they knew the Clips were gonna go to Kaman every play at the end of the game so they were ready for it. It’s good to see him mixing it up to be a little less predictable. But I agree that if we are relying on Baron to make a crucial 3-pointer at the end of the game, that’s a little too close for comfort.
A win! A real win to feel good about! Seriously, being a Clippers fan is such a roller coaster ride, the kind where every 30 seconds you feel like you need to get off to go hurl. Hopefully the Clippers can take advantage of the schedule the next few days, but I don’t think we should ever count our chickens when it comes to the Clips.
DeAndre for MFP - Most Funniest Player
The Baron Three
In fairness, the Baron three was a good shot if it’s for a good shooter. The high screen/roll forces the defense to make choices so that even if they defend it well, something should be open. One of those options is the three, if the defender goes under the screen. He did, Baron had the shot, he made it. And truthfully, given the number of fourth quarter possessions lately where they’ve gotten much worse shots, I had no problem with it. It won’t always go in, but I didn’t think it was a bad shot in that situation.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 16, 2009 8:57 AM PST up reply actions
Difference in three point shots
The Baron 3-point shots that make me cringe are the ones when he gets the ball across midcourt and pulls up for a 3 when there’s still 20 seconds left on the shot clock. Cassell used to do that too and I didn’t like it when he did it either. When they’re a result of a good screen or good ball movement and he’s open, like on this play, then I agree that it makes sense for him to take the shot.
DeAndre for MFP - Most Funniest Player
It's a swagger's mentalital though
It’s one of those “high risk = high reward or high loss”. sometimes its a risk you have to take.
This time it paid off….and maybe the team will build off this win (that was caused by the BD 3) on to the next couple of games. High reward.
BD can actually shoot the 3
better than he did last season – and thus far this season. His pre-Clipper shooting percentages attest to that. So hopefully this “high risk = high reward” result will boost his confidence from deep and he can become a more reliable shooter in crunch time.
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Nov 16, 2009 5:38 PM PST up reply actions
Or did Durant, who played over 44 minutes in the game and never came out in the second half, this after playing 42 minutes in San Antonio the night before, simply wear down?
Bingo. Mike Smith was all over it too. He called it since the end of the third noting that Durant hadn’t been given a breather the entire second half. And then they brought him back in to start the 4th.
I thought that was strange of Brooks...
Maybe Durant told him he was still feeling good?
Finally home and home games
I wanted to analyze the numbers between the two games now to see what changed. I can’t really find anything here so see if you can help me. The first line is from the first game and the second from last night.
FG 3P FT R A S B TO FP
Dunleavy 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Dunleavy 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Funny, John
I haven’t been one of those guys calling for D’s dismissal. I even agree that players, not coaches, are what’s most important. But I don’t take it to the same extreme that you seem to. Curious: Do you think that mixing up the play calling, playing KRush more minutes, and perhaps even giving an inspirational speech or two are not potentially significant? Or more generally: If a factor in a game is not something that can be easily wrapped into a statistic, is it therefore not a factor?
I like your questions
Let me answer out of order in what I think matters:
As to the Rush minutes, I think the most significant thing a coach can do is playing his best players the most minutes. (Before anyone harrumphs about Ross/Maggette, Maggette did get the lion’s share of minutes when available.) In fact, its probably the only thing they can do to influence the game that matters. This is of course a corollary of only the players matter. This is a good place to repeat an aside about Nelson. He appears to actually successfully sabotage his team by NOT playing his best players the most minutes or playing them far out of position because he seems to tragically undervalue rebounding. So does playing Rush matter? Yes, if he is better than the next option. Right now with Gordon out CMDSr is trying to find that next option and Rush came through. Until Gordon comes back there will probably continue to be SG/floor spreader by committee with the very real possibility that there are games where noone emerges resulting in losses. Maybe this means CMDSr failed to find the hot hand that day, maybe it means there wasn’t one to be found.
I could come up with countless examples why play calling doesn’t appear to be significant. The Lakers and Jordan’s Bulls quickly devolve from the Triangle offense to the Dot offense down the stretch but Jackson has a great record so he must be doing it right. Even within this thread folks are calling for more S/R, but that might end up with Baron needing to make a wide open shot. Of course, other folks in the thread didn’t have confidence that he would make it. So it is a high percentage shot or a low percentage shot? Playcalling probably matters in a keeping players happy sense, but I don’t think that is what is being discussed here. Noone is saying the wrong Clippers are taking the wrong percentage of shots. I think we are talking about game theory and keeping the defense guessing, but the fact is down the stretch of most games, most teams go with give it to your best player and get out of the way. Top-tier teams and bottom-tier teams alike.
I personally find it doubtful that any sort of speech, inspirational or not, matters. Either the players are motivated or they aren’t. These aren’t little kids we are talking about.
Finally: If a factor in a game is not something that can be easily wrapped into a statistic, is it therefore not a factor?
Not necessarily no. BUT there is significant evidence that almost every little thing about a winner or loser in a given NBA game IS explained by the available and easy to understand statistics. So this is where my operation begins from, though I remain open to be convinced.
It will take more than simple correlation to do it though. This, as the cliche goes, does not prove causation. Because MDSr has a bad regular season record, does not, in fact prove it is his fault.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 16, 2009 11:09 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
A quick question - have you ever played any sport competitively?
by Newton Pham on Nov 16, 2009 11:11 AM PST up reply actions
THAT is a silly question
Who hasn’t?
Well I don’t think Daryl Morey has, but that would be more to my point given how they smashed the Lakers yesterday, wouldn’t it?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
How is it silly?
Plenty of people haven’t.
I’m just recalling several occasions where a coaches words or another players passion has rubbed off on me and sort of gave a “second wind.”
I’m of the camp that sometimes players sometimes mentally break down and sometimes a reminder or words of encouragement do help.
by Newton Pham on Nov 16, 2009 11:21 AM PST up reply actions
how many times can someone use sometimes in a sentence?
sorry trying to build out this model and be active on Clipsnation at the same time. better go check the numbers….lol
by Newton Pham on Nov 16, 2009 11:22 AM PST up reply actions
It may not be silly
but it is condescending
by Michael White on Nov 16, 2009 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
kinda pompous? haha
hmmm not the intended tone, but I do think people can be motivated by words or body language of others.
Up to the collegiate level at least through personal experience and discussion with others.
Not sure about the pros.
by Newton Pham on Nov 16, 2009 11:31 AM PST up reply actions
Actually
I was part of the olympic program in one sport and played a different one in college.
Is there anything you aren’t wrong about?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Daryl Morey doesn't care and you shouldn't either
You are a dinosaur. Try not to lash out at me as you go extinct.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
So, what is the sport?
I’ll assume from your non-answer that it isn’t basketball.
LOL
I thought this was a tongue-in-cheek impression of Jax.
You were serious?
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Mikey
Some people, like myself, believe the question is highly relevant. John R goes on and on and on and on with arguments that coaches don’t matter, and why MDSr is great, but we never see anything from him analyzing particular offensive or defensive sets. And there is the value of WIN scores trumpeted in every post. Sorry but I believe it’s a relevant question of someone who tells us all that we should look at things like WIN scores as the primary determinant of the value of players. Go ahead and rip me for it.
You may think its relevant
but I see it as a means to separate commenters into “haves” and “have nots” which is counter-productive to the format of this blog. We went through this last year too, with the “I pay for season tickets, therefore my opinion means more than you people who don’t” arguments. (note: I don’t recall that being your position)
If you feel that the only opinions you shoudl listen to are those who competed at a designated level (be it professional, college, high school) then I fail to see what you stand to gain from this blog. To me, its the different perspectives (the give and take) that keep me learning. I wouldn’t come here if the purpose was just to try to convice others of my way of thinking.
by Michael White on Nov 16, 2009 1:07 PM PST up reply actions
In general
I agree with you, but the problem is that John R’s opinions are so vociferously and strenuously uttered that he essentially says that anyone who disagrees with him is an idiot.
I am not saying that his opinions would be more valid if he played organized basketball, but given the substance and tenor of the posts I would bet that he did not, which would support my basic thesis that when it comes to the evaluation of talent and to MDSr’s coaching ability he really doesn’t have much in the way of actual experience to support his strong opinions.
"the problem"
This is only a problem for you it would seem.
I think it is therefore fair to characterize it as “your problem”.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
It's obvious to me at least
that if you are going to make strenous arguments and call everyone who disagrees with you along the way an idiot, your backgroudn becomes directly relevant to the discussion.
I disagree ...
…although I hope not too vociferously and strenuously.
All that means is that his convictions are strongly held, and you’d best bring your ‘A’ game.
Face it, Jax — none of us here is a professional basketball player, so all opinions are, um, what’s the word, ohyeah, opinions.
Although I too think much of the Dunleavy blaming is overdone, I think he can have an impact if his PG is working to sabotage him. I don’t see why Baron needs the Coach’s urging to play a two-man game with Kaman. It’s his friggin’ team, after all. Just do it.
in hindsight - I suppose it could
I’m discovering the value of carefully evaluating how things are written from this blog…
the intent was to reach out and see if there could be any value to relating the situation…to see if there was a way to personally relate. Like “hey you and I both played sports…don’t you recall when..”
Outside of numbers…
I recall times when the coach would tell me certain thing I was missing in the game, what the opp player was doing that I didn’t pick up on …etc.
At the very least, I think there’s value in having an observer’s input. Sometimes we can’t see with our own eyes because we are so involved. A coach on the sidelines could potentially pick these things up.
I also recall times when teams I have been a part of were motivated, not nec by grand speeches per se, but by little reminders here and there.
I personally find it doubtful that any sort of speech, inspirational or not, matters. Either the players are motivated or they aren’t. These aren’t little kids we are talking about.
I absolutely could not agree more.
by Michael White on Nov 16, 2009 11:31 AM PST up reply actions
Depends on what you define as "little kids"
Is a 19-20 yr old like DJ, a “little kid”?
What about a couple of the youth core on the Warriors stating that SJax’s locker room rants were affecting their mentality?
by Newton Pham on Nov 16, 2009 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
If 19-20 year olds are little kids
Our society has bigger problems than basketball.
Can MDSr be a personal influence on a young player? Of course, in some larger senses. But among the guys playing 30+ mpg, is he a major motivational influence? Doubtful.
BUT, I think your Jackson note is more true. PEER pressure >>>>> all.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
If that's true
then who cares whether we fire the guy? He adds no value.
Except elsewhere you argue he does matter “with his so-called plan” that we’d be ditching if we sh(* can him. Putting aside the veracity of that argument (the guy’s been here over six years now sub .400), why do you care so much if coaches don’t matter?
Because he isn't only the coach
Can you see your nose in front of your face anymore?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
So you have no issues with firing him as coach - you just want him as GM
If you don’t respond I’ll assume that’s correct.
And stop the personal attacks – it only makes you look worse.
Followers/ Role Players
Will step up their game if they respect the coaches/players around them.
Top players like Kobe, LeBron, Garnett, these guys hold their teammates accountable and they play better. Coaches who can get their players to buy in, and who have their respect have the same effect.
Good answers
Which is not to say that I’m convinced. Granted, A LOT can be measured with stats, but there are some measurements that are thoroughly impractical, and other “qualitative” factors that may not be at all reducible at all.
One very difficult stat to derive is some comparison between how the team would do with or without Dunleavy. That’s rather like asking how Washington DC might succeed with violent crime with or without gun control. I’m told that the gun laws there have coincided with a drop in violence, but of course, we might have seen the same drop without the laws. Should we suspend legislative judgement indefinately until some brilliant sociologist figures out a way to prove causation? I say: The real world goes on, and sometimes, as a practical matter, decisions have to be based on a rich spread of anecdotal testimony (whether or not your for gun control). Likewise with Dunleavy: if the players are not listening to him, or whatever else, that may be all we need to “make the call” and bring someone else in. It’s a matter for human judgement, hopefully by someone who’s very familiar with the team and has had a chance to talk to the parties involved.
Some things may be impossible to quantify. How do we measure “leadership charisma”? I’m told Magic Johnson had it… Hell, I could see it in his eyes, which reflected in his teammates around him. I didn’t need a measurement, despite never having spoken to him! Tommy Lasorda had a real presence, too. Most of us have had coaches at one time or another who brought a confidence and a swagger that made a substantial difference to team chemistry. How do you measure Swagger? Beauty? Or lack thereof? Frankly, I’m not interested in even trying.
You’ve been asking to be convinced, on several occasions. Are you looking for STATISTICAL evidence? That’s putting the cart before the horse. You’re asking for a statistical argument to convince you that there’s something of value beyond statistics. It seems to me, you’re imposing your own criteria ad hoc. I might also ask, “What statistical evidence can you give me to prove that stats is all there is?” Or, “What qualitative argument can you give me favor of eliminating qualitative arguments?”
Stastics is a great path towards uncovering what’s real. To insist that it’s the ONLY path, though, would put you in the same company as any number of ordinary zealots.
The real world goes on, and sometimes, as a practical matter, decisions have to be based on a rich spread of anecdotal testimony (whether or not your for gun control). Likewise with Dunleavy: if the players are not listening to him, or whatever else, that may be all we need to "make the call" and bring someone else in.
Do you have anectodal evidence that the players are not listening to Dunleavy? That would be evidence, which is not statistical, that could be used in making this evaluation. Assuming you don’t, that means you lack both the statistical and anectodal evidence that a change should be made; which Im guessing is John R’s point.
Your point is well taking though, regarding gathering anectodal evidence.
by Michael White on Nov 16, 2009 1:00 PM PST up reply actions
I’m told Magic Johnson had it…
And his coaching career was likewise long and illustrious.
The evidence doesn’t need to be mathematical in nature, though I can’t help that I value the objective over the subjective. It has carried me far in this life.
I will listen to all evidence, if it makes sense. For example, if the players are not listening to him, that would probably show up in statistics somewhat at least. Wouldn’t it?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
mwhite06 and John R
The short answer is no, I don’t have any first hand testimony against Dun to report. I’m actually not arguing that he should be fired. I just think the reasons to be weighed may go beyond statistical analysis (or at least may not REQUIRE statistics).
And to answer your point, John R, yea, a lot of things would eventually “show up” in the stats. But not necessarily. You’ve been making the point that Dunleavy may well be a very capable coach doing a good job with limited talent. Likewise, he could start doing a lousy job (not showing up for work, etc), yet the team might keep playing reasonably well despite him. There are cases were it might not be necessary to wait for the residue stats to show up.
There are other, non-basketball reasons to dislike “single path” approaches. Debating this as a basketball issue is a little wacky, but it’s innocuous enough. The debate is interesting, in any case.
"If a factor in a game is not something that can be easily wrapped into a statistic, is it therefore not a factor?"
Hahah, I thought about the same thing…
…but it is probably more likely that we have not discovered the appropriate statistic.
Perhaps so, but...
… there will come a point when pounding out the sought after stat becomes a contrivance and a waste of time. A waste of time, that is, because what we’re talking about may very well be something we already see clearly, such as deflated morale or lack of composure.
No more Butler in the Starting 5, let's see KRush.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
Does anyone know where you can get
scoring splits (shooting %) by quarter for individual players. I’ve tried basketball-reference but no luck. Just curious because while Kaman seems to having some great games for 3 quarters, I’ve very curious what his 4th qtr % is when the defense puts the hammer down on him.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
I don't
popcornmachine.net makes it relatively easy to get on a game-by-game basis, but I don’t know anyplace to get the cumulative split for the season. That would be a good thing to know. Better than many of the splits they do provide.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 16, 2009 1:12 PM PST up reply actions
82games has it for last year
Maybe they will get it up for this year at some point.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Thoughts
A bit surprised at the opportunity to come up from below deck before Gordon gets back. Last week was tough, but all’s well that ends well. There are a lot of good things going on with the Clippers, despite their phenomenal capacity to lose in new and horrendous ways. Let’s note a few of them.
Kaman 3.0. I mean, even the Club didn’t expect 3.0 to show up this season. It’s hard to get too excited when he is missing layups and actively losing games for the Clips, but in the light of a victory those are just incidentals. 10-15 from the field in a win and all of the 20 point games are just the beginning of an unreal stat sheet that Kaman has compiled here at the beginning of the year, truly beyond our wildest dreams. One interesting thing is that Milph keeps talking about a breakout season in CK’s 7th year, but people seem to be ignoring the 2.0 era. And last week was looking very 2.0 and 0607, with Kaman putting up numbers but getting very little help. It would probably be worthwhile to do a comparison between the 2.0 season and what Kaman has been doing now. 2.0 was a “breakout season,” but the Clips weren’t able to win games and it was truncated by a mid-late season injury. But this is different. Kaman is better. This is 3.0, and it’s fun to watch. It’s still Kaman, of course. That makes it fun too, except when it’s horrible, like the way you know something funky is going to happen as the big fella starts flying up into the air from behind the glass…
Baron Davis. Can’t complain about BD either, right? Doing a nice job, getting some dunks. To consider the Restbwook issue, I think he’s a talented PG and great athlete who will shoot better over time, but we got to see the beauty of BDavis in the matchup: against certain PGs, BD is just bigger and stronger and he can do what he wants—that’s what happened against Wussell. Interesting, staying on the tangent, that OKC could have taken Evans or Jennings, because btw, Harden hasn’t looked very good against the Clips and he’s a bit slow getting started, no? OKC is a bit of mess and Green is best suited to be a backup to Durant, who plays 40+ minutes a game. Green is an okay player, maybe a better Bobby Simmons in the long run, but they can’t build around him. He’s no Aldridge or David West, let alone an elite PF. He seems to be barely okay. End of OKC tangent. I like the way that Baron Davis is playing. He needs to keep building his confidence and play with much greater poise, like last night, in the 4th quarter. We remember that the Clips were horrendous at closing out games before Cassell arrived. We went through something like 2 or 3 seasons of it or more, back when the Clips had no reliable PG. This season has been like the old days in that way. Cassell was a monster and uncanny, but BD has to settle in and help guys get good shots, hold on to the ball, with no tolerance for mistakes. They can’t happen. That’s the next step for this team, as they eventually get their guys back. BD has shown that he can produce and play well, and now the Clips have to settle down in the 4th and close things out. Playing well in the palindrome series on the road would be a big step forward.
Making adjustments. I kind of like the way that CMDSr isn’t hanging on to things too long, and he’s trying new stuff. Part of it is the result of just how horrendous things have been, as he would seem to have no choice, but that hasn’t stopped him in the past. He took Thornton out of the starting lineup after 4 unproductive games. It might have cost the team a couple of wins in the tough first 4, but at least he didn’t hang onto it. Circumstances returned Thornton to the starting lineup, and last night seems to have been a big step forward for him (KA has a nice breakdown of “the new Al Thornton” which provides a good blueprint for how we should watch Thornton play). With Butler struggling, and a notable lack of shooters spreading the floor for 3.0 and BDavis, patient Novakians were rewarded with ample minutes in the Raptor horror show and then KRush got into the swing of things last night. A new coach might be able to get more out of the talent on the bench, although it’s a tough and not obvious equation with DJordan, CSmith, Camby, Novak, Collins, Rush, etc., but the coach we’ve got is moving things around a little bit, and it’s good to see.
Thornton, in his new role, is probably the guy, along with 3.0 and BD, who has to carry them forward until Gordon comes back. But Novak hasn’t started making shots yet, and there are other guys who can step up—you never know when CSmith will lower the horn and plow through. Telfair can also get things going a little bit better, finding guys like Rush. And Butler should be contributing more, now that he knows that alternative guys can take away his blanket-like minutes.
Still some stormy seas ahead. Can’t wait until Griffin starts playing, let alone getting Gordon back. Baby steps.
I hope Al can be the third guy
To me a target might just be A third guy ala 05-06 after Maggette went down. Someone between Mobley, Kaman, or later Radmanovich needed to have a nice game.
The candidate list appears longer after Kaman and Baron now between Thornton, Butler, Rush, Novak, Smith or even Camby or Telfair.
You can’t pull Thornton or Butler too soon, but its a very fine line before its too late. The margin for error is very small right now.
Of course, all of this assumes Baron continues his improved play. A bad night for Baron, or as we already saw Kaman, and we can see just how thin the ice is until Gordon returns.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Small sample
Thornton’s the obvious place to start. You’re right, there’s a nice list of other candidates. BDavis doesn’t have to have a big scoring night either, he just has to play well and be productive in some fashion, kind of along the same lines as Cassell, as you point to the 0506 lineup. Kaman 3.0 is doing a pretty good FElton imitation, with the dramatic increase in shots going down and scoring. It’d be nice to see 3.0 go to the next level (while still in the 3.0 category) and torture some team and go for 30+. That’s what was so sad about his 9-26 outing, how he could have made a few layups and he gets a career high and the Clips win. With this team I guess you have to know the pain and suffering first before you get to the good stuff.
But now you’ve got me worrying about the transition back to “normal” when Gordon returns. How will the Clippers mess that up? What will be going on with Thornton and Butler in the middle of next week? Will Novak or Rush disappear again when Gordon comes back? Just because Thornton plays a key role and starts bringing his 15-20 ppg doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t come off the bench when Gordon comes back. It kind of depends on how things go over the next few games.
by citizen zhiv on Nov 16, 2009 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
When EJ returns
I’ve wondered a bit about the “transition back to normal” too. A difficult scenario may well come to pass, where Thornton has a string of strong games, but the team still plays best with Kaman, BD, and two outside threats on the court together. Would it help his case significantly, I wonder, if AT showed strong improvement in his passing game?
BTW, I’d say his rebounding has improved, but he’s still only averaging 3.9 in 29 minutes.
Maybe I wasn't paying attention,
but was Al injured at the start of the season? Or waaay out of shape? Milph was (were?) talking about how Al’s game had changed back to how it was — he started the season playing below the rim, and was now above it, which helped with his offensive boards, as well.
Milph did not explain what had caused this change, or what had hampered Al before. Anybody know?
At any rate, it’s certainly welcome.
Out of shape
The impression I got was that Al came into camp out of shape.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 16, 2009 6:20 PM PST up reply actions
Out of shape...
Milph said he was out of shape coming into camp. It might have been a little related to the injured shoulder, which he was still rehabbing well into the summer.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 16, 2009 9:03 PM PST up reply actions
Today's LAT
Thornton has been getting a fair amount of attention this week, which makes sense. Today’s LAT (I think it was LD, who is on the trip with the Clips, but I didn’t check) talked about how Thornton lost 25 pounds very quickly and, somewhat mysteriously, lost strength and explosiveness at the same time. But the bottom line is that he’s come around and is doing better now.
This weight loss note seems to be a follow up to an earlier story about how Thornton hired a nutritionist to help him with his diet. It seems that last year, and previously, his eating habits were fairly primitive, with a lot of fast food and other issues. But we still don’t know the exact timetable.
Did Thornton show up in mid-August fat and slow, and then he worked with the nutritionist and lost 25 pounds by mid-October, but he didn’t have his strength back? Something like that, it seems.
by citizen zhiv on Nov 17, 2009 9:50 AM PST up reply actions
Gordon injury prognosis? You guys are talking like we have to worry about not having Gordon for a while, did I miss something?
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
Good question
I’m assuming that it’s the same as it’s been, ten days from last weekend, six games. Now the Clips are 1-3, if I have it right.
But there’s this question: what’s the difference between Gordon’s groin injury and the one that Kobe Bryant has, which caused him to leave the game before it ended last night. I’m, well, torn between thinking that Kobe should keep playing and maybe he’ll injure it more seriously, and wondering… okay, I’m not torn. I’d rather have him keep playing and injure it more seriously. I’d like him to miss at least 6 games, like Gordon will.
The fact is that Kobe suffered some sort of groin injury, but he’s saying it’s not serious and he’ll play through it and be fine, while Gordon suffered a similar injury, and he’s shutting down activity for 10 days because those kind of minor muscle injuries have a way of lingering and hampering performance, and they can be aggravated if they don’t have a chance to heal. Let’s wait for Gordon to be truly on the mend, and let Kobe keep playing. Lakers are building up a few relatively insignificant injury DNPs, and they should go on taking their good health for granted because, well, they’re the Lakers.
by citizen zhiv on Nov 16, 2009 2:12 PM PST up reply actions
I believe the diffierece is the severity of the injury
the groin is a very hard injury to deal with. You can’t move it when injured without risking making it worse and you can’t really treat it much with training since movement makes it worse. Also the severity does differ, Gordon’s injury seems to be mild or moderate while Kobe’s injury which caused him to leave the game could possibly be a more severe strain and maybe closer to a tear. In which case he could be out for a long time (crossing my fingers that that is the case) while Gordon should be back soon but may need a bit to get back in shape after he has not been able to train for a bit.
In Gordon we trust
Seems to me
Kobe is not a good comparison to any other player’s injury situation. Dude’s pain threshold is straight ridiculous. Didn’t he play an entire season with a broken pinkie on his shooting hand? I hate to admit it, but the same personality traits that make me hate him so much (i.e. that fact he’s a complete jerk) are the ones that make him tough as nails. I would be shocked if he missed more than a game.
A better comparison to Gordon might be Devin Harris, who should return at some point this week (for the sake of my fantasy team, please!) after missing 2+ weeks with a pulled groin. Hopefully we can say the same about EJ next week.
by Z-Bo's Revenge on Nov 16, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions
yes he does have a very high pain thresh hold
I have never questioned Kobe’s commitment or skill I just hate his diva attitude. But I think the pinkie injury was on the off hand and it probably wasn’t as bad as it looked (Lebron played through a similar injury)
In Gordon we trust
One clarification...
The 10 day, 6 game estimate came after he’d already missed one game. So on the whole, if they stick to the original plan, he’s supposed to miss 3 more games – @NOH, @MEM and DEN. He’ll be back for MIN – if things go as originally planned.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 16, 2009 9:07 PM PST up reply actions
Do stats really matter?
To me at the end of the day what really matters is victories. We have had 7 years of coach
Dunleavy and more losses than wins. No more excuses as a coach to me he’s a failure.
I can say the one good thing about him is that by some weird reason he has Donald
Sterling paying big bucks for players. If he were to stay as a gm and let someone else
coach i would be fine with it. We have a one game winning streak going lets see if we
can make it a three game streak. Stay positive but we still need a coaching change!!!!!!
Kobe Is Actually Your Friend, Boys
If you think about it logically, as much as you hate the Lakers (and Kobe in particular), they aren’t one of the teams that the Clips will probably be battling for one of the last couple of play-off spots. Wouldn’t it have been better last night if Kobe’s groin wasn’t throbbing and the Lakers hung an L on Houston? Much more likely they’ll be one of the teams we’re fighting against for a play-off spot. At least in the Western Conference you might as well hope the Lakers kick the crap out of everyone but us.
by Clipster Hipster on Nov 16, 2009 2:59 PM PST reply actions
Are we still clinging to the idea of a playoff spot?
We need 46-50 wins. After 11 games we have four. Does anyone realistically expect us to go 46 – 25 over the next 71 games considering we are still without our best player and our best hope? One of the teams we hoped to beat out is 9 -2.
Maybe we can be the Colorado Rockies of the NBA when they replace Dunleavy with Lucas playing the role of Jim Tracy.
Just seems one thing after another. While we are waiting for BG to heal, Gordon goes down. Does anyone really thing that by the time BG and Gordon come back that we won’t have already lost another important part like BD or 3.0?
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
I'll put on my optimism hat
Sure why not. The Clippers have only really looked terrible in 1 game, and that was without BG for the whole year and EJ for the last 4. With Dun starting to limit Butler’s minutes and BD and Kaman playing at the top of their game, I still think a playoff birth is possible.
by Michael White on Nov 16, 2009 3:33 PM PST up reply actions
Obviously, it's a long shot.
We need to beat out 7 teams in the West…
Memphis
Golden State
Minnesota
These teams appear easy to beat.
Sacramento
Oklahoma City
Teams we need to beat, and can but are not easy.
Houston
New Orleans
Utah
San Antonio
Phoenix
If we pass the above tests, then 2 of these 5 need to be conquered. Houston seemed like they would be easy, but that’s no longer the case it seems. Maybe Utah & New Orleans will be our best bet. Lot of work to be done, but there’s a glimmer of hope.
Dallas
Lakers
Portland
Denver
These look like the untouchables.
Funny thing is
the same teams you have listed in the 1st two groups are probably putting us in the same group.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
No Question
We’re in the same pack w/ Sacramento & OKC right now. However, we’ve been able to beat 4/5 teams already, and haven’t matched up yet w/ Sacramento. We had a tough time w/ SAC last year, we’ll see how we do this time around.
Maybe we can change the expectation
on how many wins it will take to get in to the playoffs this year. I can see us being number eight based on the competition I just can’t see us winning 45-50 games right now.
The first column is final season wins, the 2nd column is number of wins we’d need starting now to get there and the 3rd column is the winning % required to get there.
40 36 0.507
41 37 0.521
42 38 0.535
43 39 0.549
44 40 0.563
45 41 0.577
46 42 0.592
47 43 0.606
48 44 0.620
49 45 0.634
However winning 36 -39 games is probably something we can do. Well that be enough in 2010?
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
40 would be solid
considering where we are now. Something would really have to click for us to challenge for a playoff spot, but it could happen if our guys come back healthy and we play like we did in the pre-season.
It's an interesting topic
In a weird way, I may have a higher expectation of playoffs now than I did in pre-season. Think about it. New Orleans and Utah have not been good, and both have ample reason to pull the plug. The Hornets are way over the cap, just fired their coach, and Paul is out for awhile. I read today that they were looking at trading Okafor to Sacto for Kenny Thomas’ expiring deal. So even if Phoenix is for real and Utah rights the ship, I still don’t think Houston can keep winning, and I would be shocked if either Sacramento or OKC have a winning record at the end of the season. So suddenly, 41-41 is looking like a playoff spot, if NOH, HOU, OKC and SAC are below .500.
On the other side of the ledger, you have to think about the things that have gone RIGHT for the Clippers since the season started. Did any of us think Chris Kaman would be the highest scoring center in the league? Baron is miles ahead of where he was last year. Aside from the small forwards, the individual talent has been arguably better than expected. They remain the anti-synergy team – the whole is always less than the sum of the parts – but Griffin could well be the glue guy to bring it all together.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 16, 2009 9:18 PM PST up reply actions
Houston
I agree with everything above except for the outlook on the Rockets. They have played tough in every game, they have TMac coming back soon. Have to remember this gritty bunch won 20+ games in a row a couple of years ago, they might not have the talent to beat the elite teams in the playoffs but they will outwork other teams in the regular season.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Nov 17, 2009 1:13 AM PST up reply actions
+1
Whatever Houston is doing, it’s working, and I don’t see any reason why they won’t be in the hunt for one of the lower playoff spots. It would be very surprising if Sacramento keeps on winning, but Houston’s strong start with this lineup, combined with last year’s strong finish, shows that they’re going to compete.
Hard to count out Utah too. It’s going to be tough, but let’s see if the Clips can get a few wins, get Gordon back and then Griffin, and gain an advantage over some of these teams. The Clips needed a fast start to establish themselves and gain momentum and for this group to learn how to close out games and win together. It didn’t happen, but they can still make some big strides and compete.
by citizen zhiv on Nov 17, 2009 9:57 AM PST up reply actions
+1
But it’s still nice to see an occasional dent in the armor.
first win ever without eric gordon.
i hope we continue the trend with the Paul-less Hornets…
…which really isn’t much of a team
The Clippers having exactly proven
that the Gordonless Clippers are much of a team either.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
So I went to popcornmachine
to see if I could figure out Kaman’s 4th qtr shooting % and I have to be honest, he hasn’t been as awful as my subjective brain was telling. Unofficially he’s been 15/32 or 46%. A far cry from his 55% but I was expecting something less then 40%.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
Maybe he's making buckets after the game's gotten out of hand
and we don’t give them as much attention as we do the misses when the game is close.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 16, 2009 4:11 PM PST up reply actions
Hate clouds the mind
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Nice signature
A bit hypocritical and a poor example, no?
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 16, 2009 6:21 PM PST up reply actions
That's true
Hatred of players such as Carmelo
Explains alot
LOL
Is that even directed at me?
When was the last time I even commented on Carmelo?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
A quote from Chauncy regardingg Ty Lawson brought a thought to my head:
"He’s in a great situation because he’s in a fastbreak offense, just run up and down and play. He’s not in a structured offense," Billups said. "So, it’s easy for him and he’s done a great job of coming in and using what he does best and that’s his speed. And that’s something that we need."
Wouldn’t it be the same for many players on the Clippers? Would someone like Al Thornton play better in what Chauncy describes?
Perhaps
But should you break what is working for your best player to make it easier on another player? How much will you lose and how much will you gain? Not an easy answer there.
For the record, the Clippers are still recording an above average pace this season.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
i think that you’d end up getting better play out of everyone but kaman. but it’s not like kaman would suddenly get horrible, i think he would just drop a bit. but i think the other players would more than make up for kaman’s drop. (especially when BG gets back)
also, novak wouldn’t be such a defensive risk, cause we’d be focusing on our offense.
i feel like when we throw the ball to kaman, everything just stops and it takes him a day and a half to decide what he wants to do. if we ran a lot more, all he’d have to do is catch and dunk. but if we needed to, we could run a half court set set with him.
by baron davis' beard on Nov 16, 2009 6:28 PM PST up reply actions
To write the Clippers D was excellent in the fourth is misleading.
1)OKC missed some open shots the Green one stands out the most. 2) for some reason the didn’t look for Durant at all.
Hmmm...
Other than the Green three (which I did highlight after all) I don’t remember any open looks. I remember contested jumpers from guys like Green and Restbwook – guys I want taking contested jumpers. Krstic got an open jumper and a put back. But I stand by my statement that the defense was excellent (and yes, it might be explained by poor offense).
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 16, 2009 9:22 PM PST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Brandon Jennings states the obvious regarding his 2014 free agency, everyone goes nuts
- The Facebook campaign to hire Will Ferrell for All-Star Game player intros is underway
- Video: Meet the infamous bearded guy that goes nuts by the 76ers’ bench
- Video: Russell Westbrook makes the TNT crew go nuts
- Video: Boston works in a half-court football snap after winning the tip
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
