Memphis 106 - Clippers 91 - So Bad, I Didn't Watch
by Steve Perrin on Nov 18, 2009 10:42 PM PST
in Game Recaps
100 comments
Here's the deal. I was in class when this game tipped off and I had to run an errand afterwards. I turned on the radio, which I debated at the time, but which in retrospect saved me a couple hours of misery. When I started listening to the game, the Clippers were behind by 17 late in the third quarter. Shortly thereafter, the lead stretched to 22.
So I haven't watched the game. I haven't read the comments on the thread. I have no first hand knowledge of what happened. Maybe I'll break down and watch tomorrow; maybe I won't. Right now, it's just not something I want to put myself through. And frankly, I'm a little pissed off that this team has reduced me to this. I should look forward to watching them play. I shouldn't be miserable about it.
Looking at the box score, you will rarely find games where the possession stats are so evenly split. Each team turned the ball over 13 times. Each team had 38 rebounds. The Clippers had 3 more offensive rebounds, 12 to 9. The Clippers took one more shot. The Grizzlies took one more free throw. Even the three point stats were identical - both teams were 2 for 10.
(If you're wondering why the Clippers didn't have three more shots, given that they had three more offensive rebounds, bear in mind that there are a few factors that are impossible to account for in the standard box score. End of quarter shots can have a minor impact here and there and free throws are the biggest wild card. Are 18 free throws 9 possessions, or are they fewer? Specifically, how many and ones are included in the total?)
At any rate, with everything else being equal, the final margin in this game came down to one thing - shooting percentages. So while the Clippers managed to shoot an acceptable 47%, their defense allowed the Grizzlies to shoot an unacceptable 54%. Of course it didn't help that LA missed 7 free throws.
As I was listening on the radio, I did a quick calculation. Brian Sieman told me that Baron had 22, Kaman had 18 and Al Thornton had 10 - but at the time, the Clippers were behind 82-60 with a little over a minute to go in the third and the game was completely out of reach. Which means that beyond those three players, the rest of the team had scored 10 points through almost 35 minutes of basketball. It's really hard to win if only three guys on your team can score. The final stats for the rest of the team look a little better, owing to a 27 point fourth quarter after the game was already decided. But while this game was in question, all but Baron, Kaman and Thornton were MIA.
Marcus Camby left near the end of the first quarter with a lower back injury. I have no idea how serious it is - I know he didn't return to the game. Rasual Butler was just ineffective - no injury excuse for him.
The real story here is that on back to back nights, the Clippers NEVER LED against (1) a 3-8 team playing without by far their best player and (2) a 2-10 team with a minus 9 point differential coming into the game. With more than half of that cozy November schedule gone, LA has lost 5 of 6, with all 5 losses coming against teams below .500.
If there was any truth to Marc Stein's story last week that Donald Sterling "flirted seriously with the idea of dismissing Mike Dunleavy immediately" after the first New Orleans loss, then it would seem that four more embarrassing losses in five games against decidedly mediocre competition should surely melt / shatter the ice under the coach's feet, assuming it is in fact thin. I have my doubts. As I wrote on Friday, the injury excuse is in play, and if Roeser and Sterling used it as cover to keep MDsr around last year, I don't see why they won't do the same thing now. Still, if Stein's "source plugged in to Clipperland" has any credibility at all and Sterling was mad before, you have to figure that a change will be made - now.
Something needs to change. I'd like to be able to enjoy watching Clipper games again.
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Season ticket holder meeting
I believe it was reported , on this site that Andy Roesertold e high roller season ticket holder were told that if the team started poorly the coaching change would be made. Well the team has started poorly , Andy make the damm change. I have tickets for Friday but have no interest in going if MDSR is still coaching. Why pay 20 bucks for parking and overpay for bad food to watch another no effort sure loss?
Man
I always forgot to factor in parking and horrible food.
IN&OUT & Chipotle inside Staples Center please!
Let's be realistic about our "expectations"
Much like the Kaman 2.0 era, I think we as Clips fans have been carried away a little during the Kaman 3.0 era. Let’s face it…last years team won 19 games…we many of the same players…except ZBo is gone, Blake has played zero games, and EJ has been out several games. What resembled a backup SG in Kareem Rush, pulled a “Livingston” and is out for the year. Butler has zero ball-handling skill and clearly cannot guard anyone. Did Anyone really expect we’d do better? Let’s face it…this is at best a 30-35 win team, which is still well within reach, assuming EJ and Blake do not have any injury delays. This team will not make the playoffs…so dream on. What we can hope for is for the team to play .500 ball once Blake and EJ come back. A 30 win team will be a GREAT improvement over last year. Let’s keep expectations realistic.
MDSr: I’m a loyal MDSr defender, but a few more games like this, even I will jump off the wagon. Butler is clearly a thorn on defense. Bottomline, he needs to get Mardy Collins 15-20 min, if not just to have a good defender on the floor. MDSr used to have GREAT defensive teams….now teams have layup drills against the Clips. It’s time to bite the bullet and play Ricky…he is vast improvement over Butler at SG. Once EJ is back, Butler can move back to his natural 3.
Etc: There will be a brighter day.
This is going to be my team, and we're going to rise together.
-Clipper Darrell
I agree with all your comments
Butler needs to be pushed back and have no idea why Dun wont do it. Veteran immunity? lol
Ricky has been solid every short outing he’s had. Even Collins seems to be playing better than Butler.
And yes, this team will be vastly improved with Eric and Blake in the rotation taking away minutes from the players dragging the team down.
by dulciusEXasperis on Nov 18, 2009 11:24 PM PST up reply actions
Ricky Davis
seems like this guy has actually lost a lot of the crazy that made him such a cancer early on in his career. I have been pretty impressed with what he has done in limited time and think he may realize that it is time to play with a little desperation, lest his career head he way of AI.
Sorry oasis but it's been seven years of sub .400 ball
It’s time. Lower expectations? Why? As Seiman said tonight, they should have won the vast majority of these early season games. Lowering expectation just enables the coach.
Memphis is a better team
Look at the two starting lineups last night. The only clear advantage for the Clippers was at point guard and Baron did a nice job exploiting that advantage for a while. Kaman, while he’s been playing at the top of his game, isn’t good enough on either end of the floor to go punch for punch with both Randolph and Gasol. Gay is a better player than Thornton and without EJ there is a huge disparity at the SG. Add in that Camby goes down early, finding out these past few weeks that Butler is terrible and it was the second game of a road back to back and this game had all the makings of a trainwreck. I don’t say this as a means of absolving coach/team, but I think if you look at each team objectively, most would consider Memphis the better squad.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 7:40 AM PST up reply actions
I'm starting to come back down to earth and realize the team just isn't as good as I thought it was
It may or may not be the coaching, but based on performance and not “names”…the lineup just isn’t that great.
I’m not really upset any longer because my expectations have been revised downward. 30-35 wins at this point doesn’t look so bad anymore.
The expectation is that MDSr will win .400 of his games
I agree that Memphis had a better lineup yesterday, but that doesn’t excuse NOH or OKC, if we’re using that standard.
Also, if the team is really that bad, maybe we should be firing GMMDSr. too.
I’d step down as coach to save my GM job…less travel anyway.
If the sub .400 expectation (which is reasonable) is acceptable, don't fire MDSr
If its’ not, he should be fired.
Sterling used to go through coaches every 1/12 (something close to that)
I have to imagine he’s not pulling the plug because of the money situation. Guess he’ll never pay a coach this much money unless he gets him a championship first.
by dulciusEXasperis on Nov 18, 2009 11:20 PM PST reply actions
Tractor analogy
A wise man once said, "Do not try to outrace a sports sedan with a John Deere."
So it goes, too, with the Clippers. In other words, without our two future stars, we simply lack the horsepower right now. Tonight, as on several other recent occasions, BDavis and CKaman came out firing… and it was clear they wouldn’t be able to keep it up. Like a tractor pushing its RPMs way too high, we can often hold pace with a team for a few quarters, but then our engine overheats. Tonight, of course, we couldn’t keep up for any time at all. I feel sadly serene about it at the moment.
I draw a few conclusions by looking at it this way:
1.The criticisms of Dunleavy may all be perfectly valid, but even with a very different coach in there, I doubt it would help much now in terms of winning or losing. Perhaps we should fire him anyway… We’d have a better driver then, but we’d still have a tractor.
2.Any team where Kaman is the main (and sometimes only) go-to guy is essentially a tractor. That’s not Kaman’s fault. I really appreciate his tenacity. However, it IS a reflection on the status of the team.
3.The problem is not BDavis. He was -17 out there tonight, but they would have been -40 without him. Should we blame the guy who’s pressing hardest on the gas for the engine’s lack of cylinders?
4.Part of the problem IS Rasual Butler. The guy these days is actually sub-tractor. He’s little more than a tricycle. WHAT IS UP with the guy?
5.Ricky Davis has some horsepower to give. For the next two games (or until EJ returns), I say we let him. He may surprise us. Butler won’t.
6.We’ll still tend to overheat when EJ returns. Right now, he’s just not a high-enough octane. Oddly, I kind of miss Randolph.
7.This season is about building up our engine with fresh new parts. When Griffin returns, the project will be to gradually sup up our machine. I’m not thinking about the playoffs anymore. Before the season ends, I just want feel some good muscle when the team hits its accelerator.
1. If these guys are somewhat like cars and engines, Dunleavy is probably the driver. I mean the driver is the one who has to steer the players into the right direction. Clearly Dunleavy is either driving backwards, or driving off a clip.
2. Kaman is probably the engine. It generates the most power, but you can’t push it past redline. If so, BOOM, goodbye engine.
3. Baron Davis is the turbo, or twinturbo. Turbo is known for its lag, but when turbo works, turbo WORKS!
4. Rasual Butler? The cold air intake? Let’s face it, it doesn’t do much for the speed, but it sure helps cool down our starters a bit to make our fuel burn up faster.
5. Eric Gordon- the Premium 91+ Octane you put to race in your tank. Try racing with 87, I dare ya.
6. Blake Griffin- The suspensions and tires. Let’s face it, where the hell are we going without Blake. Sure Blake hasn’t played a game yet, but he sure jumpstarted Clippers fans, players, and coaches the moment he became a Clipper. In a way, he got us rollin’. Okay, gay joke.
Fact of matter is, if your racing you dont shift at 3k rpm. Dunleavy has either started too strong and has overheaded his engine in games, or has undershifted gears and is in constant need to play pickup.
The car looks like a really awesome sports car,
but theres only a two cylinder inside, and with crappy interior…lol
I, like many other people,
felt that this was atleast a v8 sportscar! Hell some people even thought there was a w12 inside.
But remember, its not the car, its the driver.
The car's a lemon!
And the driver’s drunk.
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Nov 19, 2009 9:35 AM PST up reply actions
Fraustrated STH
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Nov 19, 2009 9:37 AM PST up reply actions
Ofcourse
to further capitalize on this, Eric Gordon could ALSO be the a stage 1 APR chip. Stage 2 can equal Gordon’s ability to get more touches and score just as efficiently as now, and Stage 3 can equal the game changer and closer.
Marcus Camby could be the Octane 91. A big factor, but not the biggest when comparing everything else.
Al THornton can be the Dyno Exhaust. Add that extra 5hp.
Is this a Euro car or a Japanese? Well I did say an APR Chip( since I would prefer to just use an APR chip rather than flashing the ECU), so Im going to say German because Kaman plays for team Germany.
Butler as ointment
or cold air intake… Either way, I think it’s an appropriate comparison. Part of the point is that Butler is not really a cylinder himself. Ergo, he’s lousy in this context, where we need to act like one. The other part to the point: Once we have some actual cylinders out there, he’ll probably become a worthwhile teammate again.
Your right.
Whether we’re running on 4 or 6, Butler hasn’t been a huge factor in winning games. Regardless, he can still help, which is what the intake is for. Btw, has anyone gotten an intake done for their exhaust? Is it true that it increases speed because gas is able to burn faster? I always thought Intake does NOTHING unless you want a better sound.
You win
That was the best analogy, I couldn’t have described the clippers any better.
by Qlippers on Nov 18, 2009 11:41 PM PST via mobile reply actions
I appreciate your analogy...
Dunleavy is to the driver of this tractor but there are other drivers (Sacramento and Houston) who are steering their tractors with much less horses. Having EJ and Griffin (who hasn’t played one real NBA game yet) in doesn’t necessarily make them better if the driver is hell bent on steering the tractor only one way and will not make fixes to his tractor.
by whyamiaclippersfan on Nov 18, 2009 11:52 PM PST reply actions
If Dunleavy remains hellbent...
…after he has his full lineup back, then I’ll jump on the fire-dunleavy bandwagon. So I’m waiting til December. Somewhere I got the impression he was revamping the lineup to better suit BD’s style. If everyone were healthy, I don’t think we’d be running so many sets. Right now, though, it makes sense to me that Dun would want to work through Kaman… I might do the same thing.
Dunleavy’s competence, or utter lack thereof, will be tested upon the new year.
It's not a bandwagon
It’s simply a realization that sub .400 basketball for seven years is not acceptable and strongly suggestive of a continuing trend.
We had $ and a trade exception and all I got was this lousy player
MDSR thought Butler was the best person out there. Another reason he needs to go. He is not a good coach nor a good judge of talent. He brought in Butler, He brought in Ricky Davis. He brought in Bassy. He’s the one who drafted AT and DJ and doesn’t help them get better. He’s the DECIDER. A different coach won’t change everything but it’s a start. A different GM won’t change everything but its a start.
What?
Rasual was a great choice at the time. He’s a one year deal whom we thought was the right pick. He could shoot (with Paul) and he could defend. A clear upgrade over Steve Novak. AT and DJ are great picks. AT listed around 7-12, and DJ listed in the first round whom fell to the second round. Then you critisize Bassy? We got rid of Randolph and acquired Bassy. Who else is going to play backup pg? Bassy is young. A VERY good transition passer. He’s made above average- good decisions so far on his part. I hate Dunleavy, I really do, but you shouldnt be critisizing some players who deserve a bit more credit than you give them.
LOL
this really made me laugh.
Aside from the fact that the program expired, we got 19 wins last season. We need 18 wins or fewer…
UNWATCHABLE.
I am a sports fan. I love the drama that is sports. The epic battles that was the Celtics vs Bulls in last season’s playoffs. The Cowboys vs 49ers in the 1990’s. The Patriots vs the Colts since Peyton and Brady. The spectacle we’ve been served over the past several weeks is NOT what I jumped on the bandwagon for. This is basketball…? No thanks. I’m with many of you. I’m sick of watching multi-millionaires not put it all out there for the fans. I can’t keep watching our “bigs” get out-rebounded by opposing point guards. I can’t keep watching this team keep getting burnt by the same 3 point threat the whole night because they simply refuse to cover the 3 point line. No effort. No respect for the game. I say that everyone of these players are ungrateful for opportunity that they have to get paid to play a great game. I don’t mind losses as long as they compete. Pathetic. I can’t watch anymore. Maybe when Eric and Blake come back and show these guys how to play hard.
How has this happened?
We (nearly) all agreed over the summer that this had been one of our best off seasons in recent years. Not only had we landed the No.1 pick sure thing but we’d also rid ourselves of a player that had slowed our offsense and been poor on D (ZBo) and padded out our rotation with much needed backup PG, SF and PF
The pre-season seemed to backup our hopes of having a balanced and talented roster, if a little short in the wing positions.
However, the injury to Blake has totally knocked that confidence out. We then lost our first four (not totally unexpected considering the opposition) but then picked up on a nice little 3 game run. Since then though, we have been appalling.
Can this group of players really be this bad without a rookie who has yet to play a game and our sophomore?
Look at the roster and it’s experience: Baron Davis, Marcus Camby, Chris Kaman, Al Thornton, Rasual Butler, Seb Telfair, Craig Smith, Ricky Davis.
This group of players have had enough NBA experience and individual plaudits over the years to beat teams of the caliber of the Hornets (without Paul) and Memphis.
I just cannot believe at this stage we are so reliant on two players who have about 80 NBA games between them.
As far as I am concerned, if we are that reliant on them, other than Kaman, I don’t see anyone on this roster as being important to our long term plans.
How how bad are we to watch!!!!There is only 1 team worse than use to watch and that is the Bobcats. Even the Knicks can be more entertaining that this bunch. How they look at themselves in the mirror is beyond me.
Make a change. Change the coach, see what you can get for Camby or Baron.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Get rid of Baron and Camby??? Yeah no Baron today we would of lost by 50. Believe it or not the guy has lifted and is ther only good thing going for us at the moment, besides Kaman.
Im just surprised that there are some people that think the coach should stay. The guy has to go, he is a bad coach and if he were coaching another team he would of been gone 5 seasons ago. Honestly if the guy gets fired from Clips (thats a bloody big if) he will not be coaching in the NBA again.
Are you kidding me?
We have gone from expecting the Baron at GSW when we signed him to be satisfied if he has a decent game. If he didn’t throw up the ridiculous shots he does then yep, I’d be happy to keep him as he seems motivated (but for how long), fitter and able to run the offence again, unlike last season.
But so much good work can be undone in a game when he takes bad shots early in the shot clock like he does on so many occassions. For a man with a high basketball IQ, Baron seems to go into mental meltdown at least 5/6 times in a game and just gifts posessions back to the opposition.
As for Camby, what do you want from him? When Blake comes back, how much do you think we are going to get from him? His contract at this point is more valuable than him as a player in my opinion. When we have Kaman and Blake taking up most of the minutes up front, and Craig backing up Blake, I might cringe a little when DJ comes in at times but it depends what we could get back for Camby.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
I agree with
trading away Baron. I seriously don’t get when people are excited about the signing of Baron. IMO, he was never an elite player, just a drop below elite at best, and another drop below that for most of his career. He’s almost like AI (iverson), in that he needs the ball in his hands to be effective. I never like that in a point guard. CP3 scores a lot too, but he also gets tons of assists.
The problem I have with Baron right now is that it seems that he’s trying to prove that he’s the leader of this team and thus started trying to do too much and led to the bad shot selections. I understand if he wants to pay Clippers back for that huge salary that he’s getting, but shooting isn’t the only way, especially when there are better scorers on the team. Good playmakers don’t have to score to be a leader. IMO, he’s really holding back the development of Gordon when Gordon’s playing (taking shots away from a more efficient scorer).
I think the coach needs to go too, but I’d wait until Blake is back and see whether the defense improves or gets worse. See, I think the problem with the team is the defense isn’t like what coach Dun wants it to be, while on offense he’s controlling too much. Either the players failed to execute the game plan on D ( I blame the players here), or the game plan on D sucks (I blame coach Dun here). On offense, there’s no question IMO, coach Dun needs to let his playmakers do their thing, what ever that thing is. I like Gordon to develop, because he can be elite, like DWade.
by RockyMountain on Nov 19, 2009 6:26 AM PST up reply actions
I'm totally with you guys. Baron needs to go, just like UK said, how many times
a game does he just turn the ball over by making a horrible shot or rediculously bad pass? Besides, I’ll never forgive him for being the bum he was last year. Almost single handedly
dooming the team. Dunleavy needs to go too – as coach and GM.
I don't agree
In case you haven’t noticed, you could make a solid argument that Baron is the best player on the team right now. Despite Kaman’s great start, it is Baron who has really posted great numbers as of late. After yesterday’s game Baron now leads the team in PER at 19.8 with Kaman next at 19.0. Kaman and Baron are both playing great— they were basically the only two guys on the Clippers capable of doing anything last night.
Now, Baron (30) is older than Kaman (27) and it’s generally harder to find solid 7 footers than solid point guards. So if your argument is that the Clippers should blow up the team, then yes, Baron should be the guy moved at this point. But to argue that Baron (or Kaman for that matter) is to blame for the team failures would be off base (IMO.)
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 8:58 AM PST up reply actions
Fair point
And I’m not blaming Baron (or certainly Kaman) only for the teams failures this year but they must take their responsibility for it as well. Baron is paid to lead this team and elite PG’s are meant to make other players on the team better. Do you think Baron makes anyone better on this team? I’d say he’s helped Kaman this year but not really anyone else.
Think about where this team is going. When we’ve Blake and Eric back and playing, do you still want to see our PG chuck up 3 balls regularly?
He’s 30 and it’s unlikely he’ll improve much at this point of his career. At times on the floor this year he has looked excellent and at times he’s look like Baron last year. Chucking up a shot within 7 seconds or dribbling the ball until he realises nothing is on and then chucks up a shot.
Myself, I’d rather cut losses with Baron and make a move. For who? Not sure at this point. Monte? Could you have two combo guards in the backcourt? I don’t know.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Baron is paid to lead this team and elite PG’s are meant to make other players on the team better. Do you think Baron makes anyone better on this team?
That’s a tough argument to make one way or the other. On the one hand, despite Baron’s strong PER, his assist ratio (insider required) the 19th best amongst point guards which is not very good. Of course, all the point guard can do is give somebody the ball, it’s on them to make the shot. So let’s look at how the starting lineup is doing with Baron. You concede that Baron has probably made Kaman better (which is no small feat since Kaman is having his best offensive year as a pro.) Camby is doing his thing. No matter who the point guard is, Camby has a rather limited offensive game and he’s really out there to grab rebounds and play defense. That leaves the other two guys who have under-acheived this year, Thornton and Butler. I’d be hard pressed to pin either of these guys struggles on Baron. As Thornton has been progressing these past few games, the explanation that his struggles were founded on lack of conditioning to start the year is looking more realistic. Butler has been a mess, but he’s gotten his looks. It’s not like he’s not getting his touches (which you could blame on the PG or the post scorer) but he has gotten wide open looks and simply missed them.
I think Baron has done as much as he can do. It’s on the others to pick up thier game.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
Do they keep track of "potential assists" anywhere?
The assists on missed “gimme” shots like layups or wide open 12 footers?
I think that would be an interesting stat.
I actually looked for that
I was looking for a stat that would count “adjusted assists” defined as a pass that resulted in a shot regardless of if it went in or not. It wouldn’t be perfect (which you could basically say about every basketball stat) but it would be an additional data point. There are other more stat savvy posters around here, maybe one of them knows where to find that info.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
Totally agree.
Egad, don’t blame the wings’ poor shooting on Baron’s passes. On the other hand, I DO blame some of Baron’s desperate decisions on the wings’ poor shooting.
Why would you do that?
How is it the wings poort shooting that forces Baron to jack up a 3 within 10 seconds of the start of the shot clock?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Ok, I'm certainly not saying Baron
has been the worst player on the team and like I said, at times, he is distributing well but everytime I think we’ve got the new and improved Baron, he sinks back into his 35% shooting games again, often killing our offense at the worst times with his poor possessions.
I agree that Baron can’t be blamed for Butler’s poor shooting run also but does he always get good looks created? Maybe. Maybe not. I think that point about Baron not having confidence in the wingmen is a bit mute as Baron is going to take his shots even if you had Ray Allen and Reggie Miller standing in the corners. He’s that sort of player.
Thing is, when you pay for an elite PG, I expect more than we are getting from Baron. Are you happy with Baron and think his salary is money well spent or could you see more success with another PG?
How can you really say Baron has done as much as he can do when you see him over dribble the ball often and take poor shots early in the shot clock. For every one of those that brings us back in the game, there are 3/4 that turn the ball over to the opposition.
I know it sounds like I’m totally Baron bashing and I shouldn’t. He’s been improved this year but I feel his deficiencies (wrong spelling I know) are going to keep this team below their full potential.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
How can you really say Baron has done as much as he can do when you see him over dribble the ball often and take poor shots early in the shot clock.
Because he doesn’t do that all the time. All players make mistakes; if you are going to highlight the instances where Baron does things poorly and not look at the whole then I really don’t know what to say. That’s like saying, are you happy with Kaman despite him missing layups? I don’t like when he misses layups, and I don’t like when Baron takes bad shots. Despite those instances of poor play, both players overall game has been quite good. The numbers confirm that. No players are perfect, even Lebron takes bad shots.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions
No the numbers do not confirm that.
Baron is shooting 40% from the field. That is 21st amongst the PG’s in the NBA. Last year I believe he was one of the lowest ranked qualifying players in the NBA in FG%. That doesn’t suggest to me that he has learnt much.
60% of his scoring attempts come from jump shots. He has a success rate of 38%. Yet when he attempts to score from close in (driving the lane or posting up), its a 55% success rate. So, why does he continue to try and hit jump shots if there is such a big discrepancy?
In possessions for Baron ending under 10 seconds, the success rate is actually high at 58% (I wasn’t expecting that) but when it gets to 21+ on the shot clock, it’s down to 21%
The stats can be worked whichever way you want. His assists and steals are good and his D is definately better than last year.
But Baron is Baron is Baron. He’s going to do what he thinks on key plays when the percentages tell the normal fan otherwise. How many times has Baron driven this team onto success in games in the time he has been on the Clippers?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Interesting stats
Where’d you get these?
I see the times when Baron shoots too early or makes an errant pass. I’m still more with mwhite06, though. Point guards are going to make mistakes, and sometimes be too aggressive. Dunleavy’s been trying reign in Baron’s tendancies with a slower system… We’ve been complaining about that too. To some extent, I think we have to choose one or other: a loose or a controlled system. If you loosen things up, then we’ll see even more shots hoisted too quickly.
I read the 58% with under 10 seconds as a good argument for slowing things down and moving the ball around. If he’s taking a shot with 3-10 seconds left on the clock, chances are it’s a good look.
21% with under 3 seconds also makes sense. He’s forcing a shot, which has to happen sometime, but it wouldn’t end so often in Baron’s hands if the wings were doing a better job. My guess is that it’s happening fequently enough to significantly his overall . So 40 overall might well be due in part to poor wing play.
They are from 82games.com
Unfortunately with Baron, any shots he takes after the first 11 seconds of the shot clock are at best scoring with a 35% rate. To me I’d read that if he doesn’t drive or score very early in the shot clock, the chances are he’s putting up a sucker brick.
The best stat I left off which was he’s shooting 29% (or 29.8%) from 3 point range. Not only is that shocking but he’s taken 57 in the first 13 games so he’s taking around 4.5 a game but hitting under 30%. Does that strike you as intelligent play?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Let's take another look...
after EJ returns, and maybe after Butler find his stroke (can he really keep bricking the whole year?). My hunch is that BD’s PER will go even higher and that his shot attempts will dip some. My overall take is that BD grasps the big picture but is having to deviate now due to a lack of good options.
To repeat what I said several posts above: If Baron weren’t in there, we’d be -40 or worse. I simply don’t think he’s the guy we should be pointing our fingers at.
No the numbers do not confirm that.
Baron’s PER of 19.89 is 7th in the NBA amongst PG’s. it’s better than Chauncey Billups and Tony Parker. In fact, if you wanted to limit it to current PG starters in the NBA, he is 5th since Paul is hurt and Bynum plays behind Stuckey in Detroit.
And by the way, every player is going to have higher scoring percentages from close in. Look at DJ’s TS%. But Baron isn’t 7 feet tall, so let’s not act like he can post up all day and foolishly chooses not too. That’s not a reasonable standard.
I agree though, I would like Baron to drive to the lane more. But I’ve been pretty comfortable with Baron’s performance thus far, even though he has bad games (like against NOH where he shooting way too much.) I don’t see too many upgrades out there.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 1:30 PM PST up reply actions
Yep, his PER is high
and that is reflected in his assists and steals performance so far this year and as I’ve agreed with you, at times, he has played well.
I just think he’ll continue to hurt us with his poor decision making. It’s like he just doesn’t think straight at times and just chooses poor options.
And this is when he was meant to be super motivated at the start of the year. You wait until our record is bad enough that there is no hope of the playoffs (yep, it may already be there after our start on a relatively easy schedule).
We’ll have to just agree to disagree. You don’t see too many upgrades out there, I see many (Harris, Calderon, Billups, CP3, Parker, Rondo, Jennings, Williams, Rose, Nelson, Westbrook). I’d take any of those really although I know most are untouchable.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
I agree
that we are in agree to disagree territory :)
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
I understand Baron is light years ahead of where he was last year.
He still tends to make the lazy pass (automatic steal) and horrible shot. Not that Baron would care, it’s just personal, I was so pissed off last year I would have traded him for a can of corn.
So the real question becomes, over the length of his contract, which Baron will we see more of? I tend to think it’s going to be last years Baron. If DTS keeps MDSR I think you’ll see a totally different Baron by the All Star break (or thereafter).
I’d trade him and let him be someone elses under achiever.
i like the way you wrote that
much better than my attempt and in about 200 fewer words!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Thanks UK, we seem to think alike. On another note, I'm having a
bit of a problem with one of my neighbors. I thought I’d give him tickets to a game sort of as a peace offering. Seeing how they’re playing – I think he might think it’s an act of war.
by eastie Rich on Nov 19, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions
I would
trade him too.
But who the hell is going to trade for him?
He’s had a crappy last season, is an injury waiting to happen(just look at his history of injuries and missing games) and still shooting like crap.
On top of that he seems to me like he’s lost a step and his contract is awful as well.
Therefore the guy(s) coming our way most likely will either be
A) done and on an expiring contract
B) somehow productive, but with flaws to their games and a contract about as long as Baron’s
That’s why i think the only way to get rid of him, while receiving something usefull, is to package him with either Kaman(not going to happen right now) or Camby.
shot selection
BD’s shot selection right now is partly a function of the other players on the floor. With Gordon out, when Kaman misses a few shots and starts struggling a bit, the temptation for BD to start jacking up shots can become too strong.
We knew it was going to be ugly when Gordon went down. This is just about what we would have expected, and without the decent OKC game it would have been worse. And even getting Gordon back the Clips won’t be at full strength until BGriffin starts playing.
Just ugliness. BD has been playing well, but he can’t help being sucked into it and being part of it.
by citizen zhiv on Nov 19, 2009 10:22 AM PST up reply actions
Where's the real Zhiv?
This isn’t a Zhiv post.
This post also reads like an MDSr excuse. As the radio announcer said last night, these games were winnable regardless of whether Gordon is in the game.
Sieman was all over the place last night
I felt like taking a shot at Mike Smith (which I did below) but Seiman was equally buffoonish. He was killing Memphis’s front office for the moves they made even while they were bulldozing the Clippers. I find the idea of the Clippers announcers lecturing about how the opponents front office handles things particularly ironic.
I don’t listen to radio broadcasts much (just east coast games where I catch some portion of the first half on my drive home) but I think Sieman lacks the sort of professionalism Lawler has. Last year Sieman was blasting Elton Brand, saying he never thought he was that good, etc. It was sort of childish.
I guess that’s a (all over the place) way of sayinig that I don’t really trust Sieman’s opinions that much.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
Agree with you re Thabeet
That seemed like a silly comment. Although I took it as more of a comment that he doesn’t seem like a number two pick now in hindsight rather than a rip on Grizzlies management.
But I think it’s unusual for the announcers to state repeatedly that changes need to take place regarding the team that pays them, implying that the coach needs to go. To me that says that something’s going on. Could be wrong.
I also think that his point about how uninterested the Clippers looked throughout the game to be a helpful window into the game for those of us who were not in a position to see the game. He should know. And that’s not childish but rather honest and professional.
I meant childish in the way he ripped Elton Brand after the fact. I don’t recall any Clipper broadcaster doing anything but stroking Brand while he was in town, then to turn around and say he wasn’t that good was sort of silly. If he wanted to attack his integrity then fine, that’s fair game I suppose considering the circustances, but his comments to me seemd like a scorned ex-lover.
I don’t think his job calling the game is childish. I actually think he’s a pretty good play by play man; he’s particularly good at describing the action on the court.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 11:13 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah
My “clipper depression” is probably getting the best of me at this point. I don’t mean to make an MDSr excuse, and say that it’s just injuries. It’s everything, MDSr as much a part of it as anything else.
What I really think—and am only able to take a minute here, and thus can’t get very zhivian, whatever that is, even if I was feeling it—and am struck by recently is the way that bad teams step up their game just that little extra bit when they play the Clippers. If the Clips were halfway decent and/or well-coached they would be able to withstand these minor uprisings easily, but instead there’s a snowball effect, which we’ve seen over the last couple of games and in some of last week’s losses, and we’ve seen it many times before (see the “role player having a career game—check” commentary somewhere else). That’s frustrating to watch, but it’s just one of many frustrations.
My main point was that things were bad when Griffin was hurt, and then they were going to be really bad when Gordon was hurt. Part of this is that it plays right into Dunleavy’s worst weaknesses. But none of it is surprising right now, given the circumstances. A bummer, but not surprising.
by citizen zhiv on Nov 19, 2009 12:46 PM PST up reply actions
I think you may be on to something...
If you don’t trust your teammates to make the shot, you might as well do it yourself.
But here’s the thing, BD needs to realize he is practically the worst shooter on the team.
Baron is far from the worst shooter on the team
Camby, Butler, Telfair all have worse TS%’s (Butler is much worse.)
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
Maybe we can disguise
Rasual Butler as Caron Butler and swap them. I’ve always wanted Caron as a Clipper.
Did anyone else notice when BD hurt his finger the other day
and he was making sure everyone knew it (shaking his hand up and down the court),. When they went to timeout and the camera followed him to the sideline, no one looked at him or asked him if he was o.k. I think there’s something to read there.
by eastie Rich on Nov 19, 2009 11:17 AM PST up reply actions
I can't even think about Caron Butler without getting upset
I remember driving to a Dodger game listening to the draft on the radio and screaming when the Clips selected Chris Wilcox over Caron Butler.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
Would he have stayed or left anyway?
I’m not sure the situation would have been any different as it is now.
Woke up
Hoping for a new tweet that dunleavy would be replaced, wrong! I’m going back to bed
by Qlippers on Nov 19, 2009 7:17 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Mike Smith
Watching the game last night, I thought Mike Smith was way off base with his bashing of Memphis and their drafting of Hasheem Thabeet in particular. While many believed Thabeet to be a bust, Smith was arguing that Memphis should have taken Brandon Jennings instead. Well gosh Mike, it sure is easy to make draft choices after seeing how these guys play in the NBA.
Smith noted that the consensus number 1 pick was Griffin (which was of course true) but shouldn’t he also mention that there were huge question marks going into the draft about Jennings. Nobody (of the establishment that is, I know some CN citizens were high on him) had Jennings as the best point guard in the draft so to make it seem like Memphis passed on Jennings for Thabeet was disingenous. If Memphis was going to take a PG (and they should have) they would have taken Rubio (except for the fact that Rubio said he wouldn’t play for Memphis) or Curry or draft Harden and move Mayo to PG. Jennings was coming off a year struggling in Italy, and is playing great now, but nobody argued at the time that Memphis should target him. Smith’s diatribe during the game was simply Monday Morning Quarterbacking, and pretty lame in my opinion.
I always saw that Conley could become the next Rondo
maybe a bit less effective as Rondo, but could still be effective. The more he plays and the more Memphis fans are questioning his abilities, the more I question his abilities. Thabeet isn’t a HORRIBLE pick, but they were practically trapped. It wasn’t like Thabeet had a bad year over at UConn. I actually like Thabeet, but as everybody is worried about his post game. Kind of reminds me of a slightly worse version of Emeka, although Emeka was probably more established coming out of college. Intrestingly enough, Okafor came from UConn also..
*note to self: stay away from post players that are from UConn.
That's definitely true...
Jennings wasn’t even projected to go at #10, it was just a great selection by the Bucks to go for it, even though they were deep at the position.
Memphis was the sacrificial lamb of sorts, taking Thabeet. All the Mock drafts had him at 2 or 3. Sacramento did will to get Tyreke Evans, but the OKC & Minnesota management have to be kicking themselves right now. Kahn had two free shots at point guards, and did okay to get flynn, but missed a golden opportunity. Of course, it wasn’t his fault, that’s just how it goes in the draft.
Thing is with Thabeet that he certainly won't be much good
this year but he is a project for a couple of years down the line. Remember the bad press that Roy Hibbert was getting last year and look at the improvement made this year. Added some weight and he’s now becoming a bit of an offensive threat rather than just been seen as an offensive shot blocker.
I think too many people now demand rookies to be straight up to pace in the NBA and are too quick to cast them as a bust if they don’t perform to a high standard in the first year.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
self fulfilling prophecy
The reason Thabeet was projected so high was because Heisley made it known he wanted him. I don’t think any other team takes him in the top 5, but we’ll never know.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 19, 2009 9:44 AM PST up reply actions
lol
moment of the night milph discussing lawrence frank in n.j. while ignoring the clippers coaching situation. i guess dts. has closed his wallet again as he apparently won’t eat dunleavys contract,.
It'd be the biggest mistake he'd ever make...
remember? LOL
'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!
by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Nov 19, 2009 9:41 AM PST up reply actions
the clips need a point guard
baron davis needs to go…unless he comes to the self realization that he CANNOT shot beyond 5 feet from the basket..same with telfair..they need to distribute and drive…thats it…whenever those 2 shoot the ball, something bad happens…..and neither on of them is a leader…..ask yourself, would this team be competitive with chaunce billups??? devon harris?? jason kidd? parker?? cp3? derk fisher????
baron had 1 good year…thats all…hes only lead 1 team anywhere…he isnt the guy…never will be the guy…and he has a tendency to blame everyone else….these players all vets and should be able to beat a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players….they play like rookies….they play scared…they dont have any poise…and without blake and gordon, they suck
John Wall
If the team keeps this up our chances of landing the #1 pick & John Wall as our point guard of the future gets more realistic. We got lucky to get Blake Griffin, maybe that luck will happen again because we haven’t had it with us since.
yeah, byron scott won't work
He has worse record than Dunleavy being controlling, it would have to be coach who is hands off.
Looks like to me that the Guys are throwing these games so MDSr. gets the Boot.
Starting with the Raptors game, showing that they could blow them out but then loosing the lead.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
Is there really any evidence that they don't like MDsr?
They all seem to get along pretty well….
they're professionals...they'll get along because they are paid too
but if you’ve watched the games, where the same plays are run over and over again, i get the feeling that the players are just going through the motions and following orders but no heart is behind it
by whyamiaclippersfan on Nov 19, 2009 1:10 PM PST up reply actions
The injury excuse is old now, sure we are missing EJ but we are 20-86 with him and that sucks too.
Sure BG has not played but he is a Rookie and if MDsr. is hoping he will be a save all, then well we are screwed even more then I thought.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
I am with you Steve...
Normally, I am constantly trying to catch any Clippers game. Be it at work online, on the radio on my way home/errand running, or sneaking a peep while my DW has the remote, but last night after listening online to a disheartened Bryan Seman during the 1st qtr, I did not feel at all bad not tuning in and looking forward to going to church without NEEDING to catch the score…It wasn’t til after 10 that I caught the score on ESPN’s scrolling bottom line…and inside I smiled a little bit because i did not feel bad about wasting my time watching/live blogging about this bunch (coach included!)…I don’t even feel/have the strength to come to anymore clippers blogs/message boards…it all seems so dysfunctional…who wants to root for that?
Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"
Let MDSR go!
need to fire him asap u cant let do 10 years as clippers coach its like how the recession starts. its better for him. its between one person and clippernation. the players and the fans deserves better. honestly… nothing personal about MDSR we just want to try another option.
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