A Quick Talk With Mike Dunleavy from Playa Vista
by Steve Perrin on Nov 19, 2009 1:20 PM PST
in News
198 comments
With a game last night in New Orleans Memphis and Denver looming tomorrow night, the Clippers held a brief walk through at the training center in Playa Vista today. Afterwards, Mark Medina of the LA Times and myself spoke with Mike Dunleavy Sr. for a few moments.
We talked about Marcus Camby's status (a little better today, but questionable for Denver), Kareem Rush's roster spot (they're looking at what's out there), the disappointing results in New Orleans and Memphis and a few other things. I'll share more of that at some point no doubt, though there was nothing earth shattering.
But for now, before I head back to Long Beach, I need to get this part posted.
The fact is, the Clippers coaching situation is complicated by many factors including an unpredictable and parsimonious owner (I'd call him niggardly, but the irony level of using that perfectly fine vocabulary word would be a little too high right now). But perhaps the biggest issue is the fact that MDsr is both the General Manager and the coach. NBA management teams are not uniform - different teams use different titles, and it's difficult to construct a one-for-one relationship. And plenty of teams have used a coach/GM structure in the past, with the same person making in game and personnel decisions. But MDsr is the only such dual hat person in the NBA today.
In most cases, when a team is performing poorly, and the coach comes under fire, it is the general manager who must make a decision. When David Kahn took the job in Minnesota, the first thing he was asked was "Are you going to fire Kevin McHale?" That's the usual hierarchy.
So I asked GMMDsr what he thought about CMDsr. I asked him to try to disassociate the two roles for a moment and to tell me, speaking as GM of the Clippers, what he would do about the team's coach. Here's what he told me.
- "Easy. When's the last time you ever saw an interim coach come in and the team be successful and make a playoff run?"
- "I have not lost with my players. I've lost without my players, but I haven't lost with my players...."
- "From an ownership standpoint, I know there's always a lot of pressure [to make a coaching change]. I'll live with whatever decision our owner makes. I'll live by it."
([Note by Steve Perrin, 11/19/09 10:57 PM PST ] For a more complete rendering of MDsr's answer, see Mark Medina's blog entry.)
I give him credit for handling the question well. He didn't get upset, he didn't deflect. He answered, and his answers are at least reasonable. In fact, he's saying several things that I've said on Clips Nation in the past. As I've always maintained, the situation is not as black and white as some people think - nothing ever is.
He's saying that making a change mid-season is essentially writing off the rest of the season. Of course, it's not always the case, but it often is. As I pointed out last week, the teams that changed coaches last season by and large did not make the playoffs.
(By the way, to answer his question, Tony DiLeo took the Sixers to the playoffs last season as an interim coach, though of course they had been to the playoffs the season before. Moreover, there certainly are major success stories with mid-season coaching changes, though rarely changes of the interim variety. The greatest mid-season coaching change of all time happened just five years ago when George Karl took over a 17-25 Denver team and went 32-8 over the final 40 games. Obviously, George Karl was never an interim hire, but it does illustrate better than any other case that a different coach with the same team can have vastly improved results.)
Nitpicking about historical examples aside, his point is essentially correct - the odds of salvaging this season because of a coaching change are miniscule. Of course, on the other side of the argument is the rather obvious: what exactly does the team have to lose at this point?
He's also saying that he deserves a chance to coach with his full complement of players. Of course we've heard this before, but you can't blame him for feeling that way. As frustrated as the fans are with the fact that the team has had at least one significant injury for something like 200 consecutive games, you can only imagine how the coach feels. Please, please, just once let me go into the gunfight with a loaded weapon. It's got to be excruciating.
On the other hand, while we don't know how the team would perform when fully healthy, we do know how they're performing with the injuries, and it seems reasonable to evaluate the coach based on those performances. Houston is winning games without Yao Ming or Tracy McGrady. Sacramento is winning games without Kevin Martin and a roster that looks suspect in the first place. More importantly, those teams are giving a great effort every night. Is it reasonable to expect deep playoff runs with major players hurt? Perhaps not. Is it reasonable to expect more than we've gotten these last several years? That's a different question, which the General Manager failed to answer.
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Great write-up
Very balanced. I agree that Dun answered the questions well. If nothing, he’s a polished guy.
There’s no arguing that his teams have been riddled by injuries of late. But to me, the easiest thing to do is get bench guys to play hard for you. They’re rotation guys who expected little to no run, and are suddenly getting a chance to show what they can do on the biggest stage possible. Yet I don’t see those guys playing all that hard for him.
To say that the team would win more with healthy talent is a no brainer. I could win more with EJ and Griffin than without. It has absolutely nothing to do with me. But like you said, if the talent on the court now isn’t playing hard for him, who’s to say a healthy team would play any harder?
If you read the LA Times article after last night’s debacle, all the players talk about not working together, not being on the same page, etc. What are those comments directly associated with? Execution. They’re not executing and they’re not playing well as a team. Who takes the blame for that?
Appreciate the balanced writeup
However, not everything is grey. Once in a while you find something that is in fact black and white. This is one of those situations. The team has been sub .400 for seven years. MDSr has been the coach and GM for seven years. If you watch the team play, the problems become fairly obvious.
Yes it’s true he’d win more with better talent (that’s essentially what he’s arguing when he says he’d win more without injuries). Of course, lack of talent hasn’t stopped a number of teams from winning. In addition to Sactown and Houston, see Milwaukee without Michael Redd or any talent other than a rookie pg.
I also disagree with the argument that an interim wouldn't do better
That depends on the problems. Here we have talent that should be winning right now, regardless of who might be injured (one rookie who has not played an NBA game to date and one second year shooting guard). This is precisely the type of situation where an interim coach could step in and immediately improve things.
You might argue lack of talent, but we have someone who according to MDSr is an “elite” point guard, a center playing at an all star level, and several other veterans. They should be winning these relatively easy games right now.
As always, MDSr is all about excuses. Never admitting fault.
At least he acknowledged the pressure
But you’re right about the interim excuse, everyone knows Hughes or Lucas would do no worse. The only awkward thing is Lucas was just hired as an assisstant. To promote him to head coach so quickly wouldn’t seem right.
Maybe give the keys to Hughes for the rest of the season, and decide on Lucas for next year? Sounds good to me, but in all liklihood Dunleavy will get his chance w/ EJ & Griffin healthy.
What Were the GM's Goals at the Beginning of this Year?
I think before the wheels fell of the Clipper bus, the best the GM could realistically hope for was a season on which a team, a future, could be built. Playoffs? Yeah, that’d be great, but certainly the GM expected to see IMPROVEMENT and are we really seeing that now?
Technically, yes there is improvement
I mean, the team started 3-19 last year.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 1:47 PM PST up reply actions
Steve the stud!!
To have the gonads to ask the tough coach question to the GM.
Applause, my friend!!
Totally agree!
This is good stuff Steve.. Thanks for getting in there and asking the tough questions! NOBODY else has had the ‘gonads’ to ask these questions.. Good stuff.. GREAT STUFF
'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!
by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Nov 19, 2009 1:50 PM PST up reply actions
Excellent writeup, and not to nitpick or anything, but we played Memphis last night.
Dunleavy has been making these injury excuses the last couple of years. Guess what? Injuries are part of the game. Other teams are winning as you’ve alluded.
We started the season 0-4, and were only without Blake Griffin.
We have had one of the easiest schedules through the first 13 games of the season. And we’ve only won four games, that is unacceptable.
If there isn’t a change made, I fear another 19 win season.
Bring someone new in and let’s start the Blake Griffin era with a fresh start.
I've got nothing.
Excellent writeup, and not to nitpick or anything, but we played Memphis last night.
And?
No question in my mind that Memphis fielded a better team last night.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 1:48 PM PST up reply actions
The Zach Randolph Marching and Chowder Society
is always pleased to welcome new members.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions
Read the first sentence of Steve's writeup.
It’s not a big deal, just a little editorial help.
I've got nothing.
Whoops
Totally misinterpreted your point.
My bad.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 1:56 PM PST up reply actions
Definitely
Plus it was the 2nd night of a back to back on the road. I’m not sure why there was such a big expectation to get a win when we couldn’t get it done in New Orleans. That’s why that loss was so brutal….losing in New Orleans meant losing in Memphis.
ooops
My bad. Thanks.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 19, 2009 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
The players aren't drinking the Kool aid Dunleavy is serving.
The season is still early enough to salvage. This first twelve games the offense have look
lost and I will blame execution on that. Execution is part of the coaching. This team needs
to bring in a coach that will change the culture of losing to winning. We need a proven
coach and yes i think there is still time to turn around this season. I watched every game
and some games even twice and some players are not playing hard. There is no excuse
losing to the hornets without Chris Paul and definitely no excuse losing to Memphis. If we
continue on this road of losing i think no free agent will come to the clippers. All we can
do is stay positive and hope this losing mentality changes around these parts if not i
sense another long season of loserville.
So what do we get for $5 m / year?
Someone who essentially admits he cannot win unless the team is completely healthy? That’s not a professional NBA coach in my opinion.
SP, if you would,
please explain the irony referenced in your post:
“The fact is, the Clippers coaching situation is complicated by many factors including an unpredictable and parsimonious owner (I’d call him niggardly, but the irony level of using that perfectly fine vocabulary word would be a little too high right now).”
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
"Easy. When's the last time you ever saw an interim coach come in and the team be successful and make a playoff run?"
I understand this, but I am really just sick of seeing Dunleavy lose.. Win or lose, it would be more entertaining to watch the approach of another coach.
'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!
Sterling has been accused of racial discrimination, hence Steve’s reluctance to use the word “niggardly” (meaning stingy) to describe him. Steve, of course, DOES use the word “niggardly” to describe him, and inserts a parenthetical to emphasize how clever he is.
Thanks for clearing that up
At first read, the “irony” could have been taken another way
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Nov 19, 2009 2:37 PM PST up reply actions
As in -
“DTS has been accused of being racist towards n’s, but he doesn’t even realize that he actually is one.” As opposed to “DTS has probably used the n word in reference to Americans of African decent, but the word probably best describes him.”
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Nov 19, 2009 2:53 PM PST up reply actions
correct...
Just a play on words. Probably funnier when Larry Wilmore did something similar on the Daily Show.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 19, 2009 3:50 PM PST up reply actions
The injury excuse is real OLD now, sure EJ is out but we are 20-86 with him and that really sucks too.
Sure BG has not played but he is a Rookie and if MDsr. is hoping he will be a save all, then well we are screwed even more then I thought.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
Room to Experiment?
I also took the comments by the players in the Times article as them saying they are basically lost, clueless and without direction, which would seem to fall on the Coach. As noted by others, one option would be for DTS to relieve MDSr as the Coach, while keeping him as the General Manager (assuming MDSr would go along with this). Why not have MDSr take a sabbatical from his coaching duties, let an interim coach have a crack at it, and if things aren’t any better GM MDSr can always return from his coaching sabbatical, ala Pat Riley. DTS still gets something for his money, MDSr remains with the organization and in a worse case scenario you take a mulligan.
by Clipster Hipster on Nov 19, 2009 2:15 PM PST reply actions
Not lost with your players???
I’m sorry, but if I were an “un-injured” Clipper player I’d take offense at what Dunleavy said.
“I have not lost with my players. I’ve lost without my players, but I haven’t lost with my players….”
Your “players” are everyone on your team, from the starters to the 15th man. So you ARE losing with “your” players. It is your job to get the most out of what you have. Teams like Houston and Sacramento are doing that; the Clippers are not even close. I’m the first to admit that I’m not a Dunleavy fan but I’d call out anyone who is not willing to take some of the blame for his team’s failures.
While not perfect, at least Baron Davis was man enough during the summer to say that he stunk it up last year and took responsibility for his play. It’s time for Dunleavy to take on some, if not much, of the responsibility also.
by benoit benjamin on Nov 19, 2009 2:19 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Was thinking the same thing
He totally disses his players
We know what he means
I didn’t have a problem with that response.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 19, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions
I do have a problem with that response
It’s exactly as Benoit said, you have a roster full of players and that is your team. The idea is that if you have injuries, you have players to cover. We currently stink and we have EJ out and we have a rookie injured who has never played an NBA game.
He is basically admitting that he’s losing with what’s left but he could win with the full lot. How many teams don’t have injuries. None. Look at the examples of teams that are doing well without key players. There are loads of injuries to key players this season so far (more than average I’d say at a guess) but those coaches aren’t hiding behind this excuse.
I’ve had enough of the injury excuse. How many years are we going to go behind this? This is the 3rd consecutive season that we are blaming our performance on injuries.
You know what? Get rid of the fitness staff or get rid of the coach. Someone has to pay as the players aren’t going to get sacked. Someone has to be blamed for this mess.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
"you have players to cover."
I find this to be a strange position. The only way it makes sense is you believe that players are competely interchangable.
If losing Kaman for a season has no effect, why is he getting paid so much money?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
What?
Why don’t you just play 5 players for 48 minutes then?
By having a roster of 13/14 players, the idea is that you build that roster to cover each spot with a decent bench player so that if injuries do hit, you try and minimise the damage.
Look at our current situation clearly. We have 2 players out. 2. EJ and Blake. Yet we stink. Don’t you think we should perform a little better considering the two players we are putting all our success on now have only 90 NBA games between them!
don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t say it had no effect. Look at Sac. Anyone getting paid as much as KMart? Nope. They doing ok with him out. Yep.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Your second best player is out
And the player everyone was considering the savior of the franchise is out.
It matters. A lot.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Your second best player is out
And a rookie who has NEVER played an NBA game is out.
Is that reason enough to lose badly and show little effort?
Are you going to do this everytime a starter gets injured?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
I didn't do it when Maggette was injured and the Clippers went to the playoffs anyway
How is that explained in this worldview?
He “coached” through that…
You can define the players away however you want. The fact remains that expectations shot up when Griffin was drafted, and not a moment before.
No Griffin, but expectations remain just as high. I find this to be nonsensical.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
So the fact that we finally had a fit
Kaman back this season and also a fitter and more motivated Baron back were non-factors in the expectations rising for this season?
Was it all just Blake coming in? I think not.
How is it nonsensical? Because you don’t understand it?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
So everyone was high on Kaman coming into this season
This isn’t my recollection…
Yeah, it was mostly Griffin.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Oh ok
Maybe I was reading a Clips Nation website in a different dimension then.
No one mentioned Kaman being back or Baron being fitter. Just all about Blake.
Right. Nice one. Ok then.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Agree with ClippersUK
You can’t tell me a rookie who has never played a game means more to the clippers than Michael Redd for Milwaukee, Kevin Martin for Sacramento, or Yao/McGrady for the Rockets.
I might be okay with a 7-6 or even a 6-7 record since some key guys have been hurt, but 4-9 is just ridiculous. Especially when you factor in losses to Memphis and the Hornets without Paul. These are awful teams that are far worse on paper than the clippers even without BG and EJ.
KMart
is their first best player. And they’re better than the Clips. How can you argue that?
by Polish Rifle on Nov 20, 2009 7:12 AM PST up reply actions
John R will say anytiing, even contradict his past positions, to support the MDSr lover argument
In the past John R’s mantra was that players are interchangeable widgets.
Now, he’s arguing that players are not completely interchangeable.
If John R challenges this, I’d be happy to search the archives. No credibility.
by Jax on Nov 19, 2009 9:26 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Chemistry!
talking about bad chemistry with players maybe the chemistry problem is with MDSR. comments like that affects players. good motivation from coach is the key why good teams catch up in games when they are 20+ points down and win. whenever i saw clipper games when they are down like 15+ it just stay like that or the lead gets worst and lost. its not 100% MDSR to blame did players took 1000+ shoot pratices all the shooters i dont hear any news like that with the clippers whenever i watch other teams its always like “eg. afters Lakers lost last night Kobe came to staples early to pratice shooting.” something like that. just saying…
in regard to the interim argument
when phoenix put alvin gentry in charge of coaching, phoenix got a lot better, and they’re still doing a lot better.
they got better because gentry had the team play to their strengths and within their limits. i think that’s a big problem with us. dunleavy is trying to get the players to adjust to him. if you play the way you’re comfortable with, you not only play better, but you have more confidence.
by baron davis' beard on Nov 19, 2009 2:24 PM PST reply actions
I wish the Clippers had a good coach like Alvin Gentry
I wonder how he would do as the Clipper head coach. If only there was a way to figure out such a thing.
I’m with eastieRich, if/when MDsr is fired, just say no to re-treads—- and that includes Lucas.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions
were you being ironic?
gentry was the clippers coach a few years ago…or are you talking about how gentry would do with this clippers team
by whyamiaclippersfan on Nov 19, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions
Yes I was trying to be clever
I’m inclined to reject the, “when in doubt just change something” model, and would rather focus on the specific reasons for firing a coach, signing a player, trading a player, etc.
And I think Gentry is a horrible coach.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions
LOL
We need an ‘irony’ tag in html. I got it. In fact, didn’t I use the same line last week? Talk about retreads.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 19, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions
Well, if it comes down to ownership on this line, I’ve been using it since last year!
Check the archives!
Seriously, I’m not fond of Alvin Gentry.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 3:57 PM PST up reply actions
All aboard the roflcopter
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
His W-L record with the Clips is no better than Dunleavy’s.
A buddy and I were discussing this the other day, fondly remembering instances where Alvin Gentry at the end of the game ran a play for the immortal Earl Boykins as opposed to running a play for EB or you know, one of the other players taller than 5’5.
Were you a fan of his? That would surprise me.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 4:09 PM PST up reply actions
His Career W/L is no better either
Despite MDSr bravely slogging away for Sterling for much longer.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Bravely slogging away
What, for millions a year. Tough break.
Why doesn’t he bravely slog away elsewhere.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Not at al - frankly I don't remember him there
Hard to believe he’s worse than MDSr
This is not true of course
Under Porter the Suns won 55% of their games. Under Gentry it was 58%.
3% feels low for a dead coach bounce, and is certainly not significant evidence that they played better.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
3% of 82 is 27 games
if we got a coach to get us 3% more wins, we’d win 46 more games than last season, putting us at .560
3% sounds pretty good to me.
by baron davis' beard on Nov 19, 2009 2:55 PM PST up reply actions
*we'd win 27 more games than last year, totalling 46
by baron davis' beard on Nov 19, 2009 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
haha woops
typed in 82 × .3 in the ol’ calculator. not 82 × .03
that makes a little bit of a difference.
yeah, 3% isn’t that much.
but, the suns do look a lot better this year than last year. you have to admit.
by baron davis' beard on Nov 19, 2009 2:59 PM PST up reply actions
They look good but it's early
and they’ve had no real injuries compared to a lot of other teams in the NBA, especially in the west.
It only matters how they are after 82 games really and I’d expect them to be in a low playoff spot.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
The Suns are 10-2, but really they are 8-4
I feel like some other things changed besides the coach this year.
At any rate, the numbers say they aren’t much better at all. Their offensive efficiency is exactly the same, but their defense appears to have improved some.
When two different coaches had the same players, the results were exactly the same. If Gentry goes 17-14 instead of 18-13 his win% actually drops below Porter for last season.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Glad you corrected yourself...
I was about to hit you hard on your math skills
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 19, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions
Ladies and gentlemen
The anti-Dunleavy forces.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
haha yeah, look up above. right after i posted that, i realized i screwed up
by baron davis' beard on Nov 19, 2009 3:10 PM PST up reply actions
No worries
Baron Davis could do with some of your math to boost his shooting % though!!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
haha
he didn’t shoot bad last night though!
i think it was like 65% with 20 points or so
by baron davis' beard on Nov 19, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions
That is exactlŸ the sign of a great leader or motivator; you do the BEST with what you got. We have much. More than most teams. Are we doing our best with that? I’d argue that we are not. I’m not dependant on Dunleavy’s favors, so I come right out with it; Dunleavy as manager needs to put his team in the best possible position to succeed and that’s insurung that we have the best orchastrator on the bench to maximize on what we have not counter act to what is attacking us. I am blown away by Houston’s recent success with out its 2 main stars. Dunleavy’s comment about injurys would be like a CEO saying to the board “I can return profits if the market was better”. The market can ALWAYS be better but are you making the most out of what we have? That is were the true evaluation of success comes in. Are you making me some lemonaide with those lemons? On my next post in which I was already planning, I’m going to do just that, see how much we really have as a team in compairson to other teams.
by Takebb909 on Nov 20, 2009 11:34 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Coach of the year Jim Tracy
Colorado good players on paper and on the field but would not translate to victories. Enter
interim coach Jim Tracy on the rockies go to the playoffs and the coach wins coach of the
year. Bring in a coach with a winning record and get rid of all the losers on this team, starting with the training staff all the way to the players if need be. The petition the fire
Dumpleavy in less than an hour an a half is past a 100 signatures.
That the same Jim Tracy the Dodgers fired for being terrible?
I’m not a baseball fan, but the name sounds familiar.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Yup sure is
Do I think Jim Tracy is a horrible manager? Yes, yes I do.
(Tracy was famous for being both the interviewer and interviewee in his press conferences)
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 2:45 PM PST up reply actions
Not to rain on anything
but I liked Tracy. Tracy trusted his players just like how Joe Torre trustes his players. Btw, Beltre did good under Tracy. After leaving Dodgers, goodbye Beltre’s career!
You don't think Beltre juiced?
I mean the guy went from hitting barely 20 home runs a year to 48 runs in one year.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Nov 19, 2009 10:12 PM PST up reply actions
Very, very possible.
Especially going from 48 HRs with a .334 AVG to 19 HRs and .225. Must’ve really hurt some teams on fantasy baseball man!
I remember thinking, Dodgers HAVE to resign the guy, but eventually, made the right decision. Maybe Beltre juiced with Gagne (sadly.) I was so disappointed learning that Gagne took steroids. I always saw him as one of the best closers EVER and now I’m left to think otherwise.
I also really liked Hideo Nomo, but then agian I practically liked almost everybody from Lo Duca, Shawn Green, Chan Ho Park, Kevin Brown, Dave Roberts and Alex Cora.
Yes that the same Jim Tracy
The team he had with the dodgers were half as good as this dodger team. Oh and by the
way John R can we count on your signature for the Fire Dumpleavy petition.
LOL No
I’m not among the braying masses.
Weird that he got fired for being a bad manager and now he is perceived as a good manager. He much have went to manager school or something in the meantime.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Nice job of ripping everyone
who thinks it’s time for a change (count Clipper Steve among the “braying masses”).
At least you’re not pompous.
I don't think anyone who wants a change is among the braying masses
But there is a tone from many, that yeah, I describe as such.
Chanting anything I pretty much find creepy and a sign of groupthink. And again, an internet petition?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Why not the petition
Just a way of putting out there what a large number of fans feel. It’s covered by Skeets from Basketball Jones on Ball Don’t Lie so it’s going to get some coverage and that can only be good for the cause.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Hurdled got fired after an 18 - 28 start
Tracy took the team and went 74-42
I think this shows that a new coach can help a struggling team.
Well Tracy actually did make a simple change
he decided to play the best players. That’s kind of an important aspect in baseball.
But that sort of thing doesn’t really apply here.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 3:01 PM PST up reply actions
Ha
I meant now….
It’s not like there are talented players getting buried.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 3:04 PM PST up reply actions
Who would want to coach the Clippers
I also look at his comments like who would they bring in that could be a better coach?
I see the Clippers like the Raiders and even the Warriors…the teams are run poorly and no one is beating down the door to be head coach.
Dunleavy has been around for a long time and he may have some failures, but he is as decent a coach as you will get right now..
If you get Blakes healthy and trade Baron, maybe Byron Scott will take over next year?!
Who would want to coach the Clippers
People who like money? People who like coaching? I mean, its not like there is an infinite supply of coaching jobs out there.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 3:04 PM PST up reply actions
This is my fear, the replacement coach. However could he do worse?
Let’s get Pat Summitt…. (Won’t happen but would love to see it)
Don't fear the replacement coach
Fear the replacement GM. You need one of those too.
I hear Zeke is available.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Its true
He appears to have messed up that team so bad even the Greatest Coach of All Time Mike D’Antoni can’t figure it out.
Why can’t that guy get more out of his players? They clearly don’t respect him! No Excuses!
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
When you said "Zeke"
I was thinking of another one: “Zeke from Cabin Creek” (Jerry West). I guest I’m dating myself now. I wish he would come out of retirement and help right our Clipper ship.
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Nov 19, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions
He could probably still play for us
He may have lost half a dozen steps but he could match Novak’s athleticism right? Haha.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Nov 19, 2009 4:17 PM PST up reply actions
Lol!
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Nov 19, 2009 4:22 PM PST up reply actions
I hope not
I went to a college which had no football team and would be considered “mid-major” for basketball. (Go Pilots!)
But, the poster above is basically making the, “That’s why you’re Vanderbilt” or “That’s why you’re Michigan State” argument. I don’t think that really applies for the NBA though. I know in dealing with my alma mater, simply going to the NCAA tournament would have me ecstatic (and I’d promplty lose a ton of money by putting them in the Final 4 in every poll.) But I think with professionals, with a salary cap, etc— I think actually winning a championship, is a realistic goal.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
When?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Whenever, before I die
I’m basically saying, that no matter how much I want my alma mater to win a championship, it simply won’t happen. Just like Vanderbilt won’t win the BCS National Championship. But someday, the Clippers will win a championship. It’s a reasonable goal. Just like winning the WCC is a reasonable goal for the University of Portland.
by Michael White on Nov 19, 2009 4:05 PM PST up reply actions
Given that only 7 franchises have won the trophy in the Stern era
I am hoping you are not holding your breath.
If your team did not have Duncan, Jordan or Shaq there was a 12 year stretch where you were pretty much ineligible.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
how about a winning record?
Is that too much to ask?
by Jax on Nov 19, 2009 4:31 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Given the history
Maybe so.
But I’m sure you are just being dramatic. You are for Gentry and he doesn’t have a winning record, so I am finding hard to take any of your points sincerely.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
when did i say i was for gentry?
What does that even mean?
by Jax on Nov 19, 2009 4:47 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Precisely the response I expected
So when you were asking what’s wrong with Gentry, I guess I was right that it wasn’t an honest question.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Poor logic
You are for Dunleavy so maybe none of should take your points seriously?
Some seriously flawed logic.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Nov 19, 2009 5:22 PM PST up reply actions
What are you talking about?
I don’t know much about Gentry. Other than that he used to coach here. I wanted to know what’s wrong with him.
From that you leap to the conclusion that I’m lying.
Seriously, please go find a rock and crawl under it.
It has to be possible right?
I mean the Miami Heat won a championship before? Small market teams like the Spurs and Pistons have won as well. We do have the worst owner in professional sports but eventually he’ll die and we get a new owner right?
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Nov 19, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions
Clipper Nation great news
The signatures on the petition are coming in fast its about 205 signatures so far and they
are already talking about it on Money & Petros. I think by tomorrows game we might have
a few thousand signatures.
Yeah, I posted that in a Fanshot
I must have caught it early as he stated 12 Sigs and it was at 15 when I signed. It’s flying up now.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
I think you need like 10,000 signatures
I think we should hit up the SBNation brotherhood for assistance.
Thing is, even if Donald is sitting at home and signs it,
it may not be enough for him to get sacked!!!!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Sterling is very prideful
So if you can get enough signature fast enough, it might hit some news agencies. Other than that the Petition is futile.
Let's buy a full page ad in LA Times Sterling Style
Asking DTS to fire Dunleavy. He’ll appreciate the medium as he’s done it before himself.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Nov 19, 2009 5:23 PM PST up reply actions
why is it
Milwaukee can with a rookie pg and no one else?
by Jax on Nov 19, 2009 4:21 PM PST via mobile reply actions
I know. They basically have two threats offensively
Jennings and Bogut. I saw the 55 point game and it was basically those two doing everything.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
This is not true of course
And the outcome was predicted.
No doubt Jennings is exceeding expectations (yay for going to Europe, I have been for this), but it isn’t accurate to say that it is all Jennings and Bogut.
The touchy-feely ESPN experts had it wrong again. But hey look at that, Wins Produced calls another one…
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Did you watch the 55 point game?
If you had, you would have seen that nearly every offensive play was going through Jennings and Bogut.
Who else you got threatening on that team?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Everyone
7 players have TS% above 50% and Delfino is just a tick under.
The GM made some great moves in the offseason. Props to him.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
no credit for the coach huh
You have very little cred
by Jax on Nov 19, 2009 4:52 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Nope
I mean he’s a bad coach. The Bulls and Suns fired him for reasons. He’s a mere 19 games over .500 for his career.
By every metric you use to attempt to prove that Dunleavy is a bad coach, Skiles is no better.
A group of players who were performing at high levels on other teams came together and performed at a similar level on that team. I don’t see any reason in particular to credit Skiles. He is merely in the right place at the right time.
Nothing wrong with that though.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
So he's over .500 for his career
And Dunleavy is way under .500 for his clippers career.
That proves Dunleavy is far worse than Skiles. Black and White stats.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
LOL
For his Clippers career…
For his Bucks career, Skiles in likewise under 500. If you want to compare apples to apples.
You gotta do better than that.
I mean, if you take OUT his time on the Clippers, Dunleavy is over .500. So how do we know its not the Clippers dragging him down and not the other way round?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Ok, you wanna do your stats?
Skiles at the Bucks is 44%
Dunleavy at the Clippers is 39% (not including this season)
So, you see Skiles record is better and he has had far less time to develop his team (only 1 full season at this point).
Any your point exactly is what? No one knows!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
I hope no one wants to do stats again.
I posted many times last year Dunleavys Clipper stats and while I don’t have them anymore, no coach who has ever had as miserable a two year stretch as Dunleavy and kept his job. Only one coach had a worse two year stretch – poor Wes Unseld. No coach in the history of the league has had such a record of futility and been kept on as coach for a six year period (now I guess it’s seven). And don’t count Bill Fitch’s record. He increased his win total every year before he was let go – something Dunleavy could only dream of.
What great moves?
Releasing Charlie and Sessions to lose some luxury tax payments?
Who are these great players on the Bucks then? Ridnour? Warrick, Illyasova, Bell.
Please.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
the point dear boy
Is that these folks are not household names. Mdsr would not count them among "his players. "
Yet skiles turns them into winners. With the big scorer redd out. You should give credit where credit is due.
by Jax on Nov 19, 2009 4:43 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I wonder how a defensive coach like Skiles
would take to our team…….
Not saying he’s one I’d want but would like a good defensive ethic on the Clippers for once.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Redd is massively overrated
At least he was. I don’t think anyone thinks that highly of him anymore.
What was Skiles doing wrong last season? What is he doing right now?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
redd is a proven scorer
They have little else. Whathas mdsr done?
It is pointless to argue with someone whose arguments are so illogical. I understand. Coaches mean nothing.
by Jax on Nov 19, 2009 5:00 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Watch the Bucks play and you'll see differences
On the offensive end, Jennings has the ball in his hands and he’s got some freedom on the ball.
Defensively they are solid as are all Skiles teams.
Don’t forget he only took that team over last year so it takes time to get his ideas across.
Notice it’s not taken 7 years to turn them into a decent team though!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Among Milwaukee's six wins....
The Knicks, the Nets, the T-Wolves and the Warriors. A different schedule and they’re 2-7 right now. Nice win over Denver, I give them credit for that. But they won’t be above .500 at the end of the season. They will be below .400. Write it down.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 19, 2009 10:46 PM PST up reply actions
Is that supposed to be a defense of MDSr?
They almost beat Dallas. They are playing well. Why not give them and Skiles that much.
Nope.
Just a comment about Milwaukee.
By the way, “almost beat Dallas?” You’re pretty notoriously “no moral victories” when it comes to the Clippers, IIRC.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 20, 2009 9:40 AM PST up reply actions
The point my man is
that they are hustling, playing good D, and staying in games against good teams. Those are signs of good coaching, which is what the original post was about. Not whether the Bucks will have a .500 record or whether they have had some moral victories.
I still don’t get your point. You could have said alot of things, such as “yeah, I wonder why some teams with far less talent than ours are doing far better than us” but instead you’re making comments that have little to do with what we are discussing. What is your point?
I could have said that huh?
Um, I did say that. In the original post. I don’t think my point is hard to understand. I don’t believe Milwaukee is for real. Sorry to reply to a comment about Milwaukee with a comment about Milwaukee on my own blog. I’ll try to be better.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 20, 2009 12:39 PM PST up reply actions
You could look at it that way Steve
but also you could say they are 6-3 and of the 3 games they lost, they were within 2 points away in Chicago and took the excellent Mavs to OT.
Then look at ourselves. It was only a few weeks ago people were posting about our easy schedule in the rest of November since those first 4 games.
So, if we are sitting here 4-5 with the easy schedule, where do you see Dunny taking us when it ramps up a bit?
Did you write the Bucks being below .400 when you saw the Bogut injury?
Our record will be worse than the Bucks. Write that down.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Before Bogut injury...
Or before I knew about it at any rate.
I’d take the Clippers to have a better record than the Bucks in a heartbeat if they played in the same conference. Hard to say with them in the East.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 20, 2009 9:41 AM PST up reply actions
Do you think that the Clippers' play is more indicative of good coaching than the Bucks?
Since that’s the issue on the table?
Is there really a Leastern Conference anymore?
The top three teams (Cavs, Celtics and Magic) look really good. The Hawks are strong again, the Heat have Wade and then they have a bunch of solid teams like the Raptors, 76ers, Bulls, Pistons vying for the last few playoff spots.
Not sure the Clips would fare much better in the Eastern conference, our wins have been all against the Western Conference teams (the bad ones too), the Thunder, Warriors, Grizzlies and Timberwolves. We haven’t beaten a good team, at best the Thunder are a average team right now.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Nov 20, 2009 2:51 PM PST up reply actions
If Dunleavy isn't fired today, I don't see him being fired anytime soon
As far as candidates to take over the position, I’m going to throw the names of Coach Carter and Rhea Pearlman. They were both presented with a difficult task of taking over a team of misfits and underachievers and turned them to competitors.
by Qlippers on Nov 19, 2009 5:32 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Whoopi Goldberg?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 19, 2009 10:47 PM PST up reply actions
Can we have Emilio Estevez?
I know it was hockey but I’m sure he’s better than Dunny.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
I said it before and I'll say it again
The Nets are 0-12, and are the only NBA team that hasn’t won a game yet. Despite this, as of right now Lawrence Frank is still employed as New Jersey’s head coach. I realize that situations and expectations are different, but if New Jersey can out Clipper the Clippers and still won’t make a coaching change, I don’t see Dunleavy getting canned in the near future.
They stated they'll wait until he has a healthy roster
seems the same is going for Dunleavy
by dulciusEXasperis on Nov 19, 2009 6:56 PM PST up reply actions
BREAKING NEWS JUST COMING ACROSS THE WIRE:
Mike Dunleavy and the Los Angeles Clippers have just come to terms on a six-year extension.
Details to follow.
I've got nothing.
HOW COME THE HORNETS CAN BE COMPETATIVE WITH INJURY?!?!
im sorry but complaining that your team sucks because of injury is inexcusable because injuries are pretty much part of the game.
Proof
That coaches matter! (Or the team sucks)
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Nov 19, 2009 9:08 PM PST up reply actions
at this point, both
our players give up way too easily. Shouldn’t need a coach to push you for the full 48 minutes. Other teams want it, we just play some uninspired ball.
by dulciusEXasperis on Nov 19, 2009 9:22 PM PST up reply actions
From Dillman's latest LA Times article...
“I understand fans,” Dunleavy said. “I don’t blame fans. They’re not technically a lot of times savvy.”
Yes we’re technically not a lot of times savvy. His grammar is on par with his coaching.
So he's smarter than the rest of us
Just ask him, he’ll tell you so himself. Reminds me of someone.
Hmm
I understand that he’s frustrated and under fire, but maybe it’s not such a good time to be taking shots at the fans. He should have just stopped with the first half of his statement.
That was from the interview with Steve
I wonder why Steve didn’t report that part of it.
But I disagree madglove – that’s just the way MDSr is. All the time. Which is why I’m not fond of him.
I wonder why Steve didn’t report that part of it.
Um…. Mark Medina transcribed the entire interview. I excerpted three quotes I thought were the most pertinent. It was a dumb thing for him to say to reporters, and it was arrogant. But it wasn’t particularly interesting.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 19, 2009 10:49 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks
I find taht quote interesting. We are the reason the team and thus his job exists. I doubt he thinks the quote is dumb.
well...
I think he’s smart enough to know that it doesn’t look good in print. Let’s face it – he’s right. Most fans aren’t very NBA smart. Readers of Clips Nation are a hell of a lot smarter than most Clipper fans. But he doesn’t want to be calling the fan base stupid right now.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 19, 2009 11:21 PM PST up reply actions
At this point I've got to say "What The Fuc* Does Dunleavy Know
About Basketball?"
actually
MDSr’s point was that anyone who thinks he should be replaced is stupid. That would include you Steve and anyone here on Clipsnation who thinkslike we do. And I disagree with your take about the wisdom of fans. This is basketball not brain surgery. I’d rather not separate the fans into different classes err camps. His comments to you are emblematic of who he is. Someone who doesn’t get it, knows he doesn’t get it, and lashes out at others for what he knows deep down are his failings.
No wonder John R defends this guy. The question is, after 7 years of failure, why does anyone else?
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 8:48 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
ego setting in
defending his capabilities while taking an unnecessary cheapshot at the entire fan base… it’s apparent that he’s working harder to preserve whatever’s left with his professional pedigree than reconnecting with the team. Of course maximizing your squad’s ability to win is the easiest way to do that, so the fact that he thinks verbal manipulation gives him a better shot is downright pathetic.
His current chain of thought probably runs something similar to the following: "I’m already getting guaranteed money from the Clips regardless of what happens and it’s increasingly likely that I won’t get an extension from them. Staying on as GM only effectively kills further earnings power with my coaching experience so it’s either retaining the dual post with this team or quit, stick with my coaching philosophy, blame it on external variables (fans, franchise, injuries, owner) and try to land another gig with another team.
Like others have commented I do not agree with Dunleavy’s conjecture regarding throwing away the season with interim coaches; at the very least we’re already on the path of throwing away the season by tussling with his situation. However, while keeping him as GM and promoting Lucas to head coaching capacity would be a viable and perhaps the preferred solution given Sterling’s contractual commitment with both, Dunleavy’s responses, as analyzed above, suggests this outcome is unlikely to happen.
imho it’ll come down to how willing Sterling is to pay for two other guys (GM & coach) while paying Dunleavy for nothing. I doubt anybody out there expects Sterling to pull the trigger given his track record, so this actually sets up a great opportunity for the owner to rebuild his reputation of being a miserly owner and an inconsiderate businessman. I’m keeping my fingers crossed.
Why couldn't next season be a team option...
Damnit!!!!!
'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!
by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Nov 20, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions
nba.com article says Dunleavy is #2 on the hot seat
Great article here saying Dunleavy may not last long (Lawrence Frank is the #1 head coach in jeopardy with the Dunce at #2).
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/fran_blinebury/11/18/coaches/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1
Injuries suck, I get it, but NOH just won there 2nd in a row beating red hot Phoenix tonight & HOU wins & SAC wins without their star players. The fact that the Clippers don’t win and can’t find a way to win is the coaches fault. Dunleavy uses the injuries as an excuse when the other coaches use it as motivation to get the best out of their guys.
You know
the more I hear the word “but”..around Clipsnation, it keeps reminding me of a Kanye West- Taylor Swift Parody.
Yo I know injuries suck, but… New Orleansj ust won their 2nd in a row!
Especially if it ranges from New Orleans, losing to Memphis, and Houston.
And they beat the great Alvin Gentry
not support of MDSr, I just thought it was funny.
ps
this post was on BDL’s 10 man rotation post…good solid content by both sides of the MDsr parties…
Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"
"I understand fans," Dunleavy said. "I don’t blame fans. They’re not technically a lot of times savvy."
I think he meant these fans.
Is it Time for Mike Dunleavy Sr. to go?
1% No 2 votes
17% Wait until Blake Griffin Returns 20 votes
My Opinion of Mike Dunleavy
I have been a Clipper fan since the day Norm Nixon was traded to them. Experienced many a disappointing moments over the years. However, I must say the last couple of years have been torture watching the Clippers play while Mike Dunleavy appearling clueless on what sound coaching strategies to apply.
Someone pointed out how his coaching experience demonstrated alternating pattern of good then bad:
Lakers (Good): Well, it would be hard not to have a good record with the Showtime Lakers—Magic Johnson, Worthy, etc.
Bucks (Bad)—Well it just shows his true coaching ability
Portland (Good)—Well, they had a pretty player roster during that time. Plus, there was a system in place that was sucessful when he assumed the coaching role.
Clippers—Well, when he had Sam Cassell, Kaman, E. Brand, he did do OK, but he was given enough time to show his lack of coaching ability.
There is one reason why he is not fired yet: The owner’s stinginess. Basically, a few years ago when the thought of firing the coach did cross the owner’s mind, Dunleavy even dared Sterling to fire him. Cause Dunleavy would still get the remaining pay of his contract if he were to have been fired. Consequently, Sterling opted to stick with him and not pay any body else. Sterling has proven that he is not willing to pay more money for good talent, with a few exception. In Dunleavy’s case, it’s Sterliings’ unwillingness to pay money for another coach is why he is still the Clippers’ coach.
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