Clippers vs. Denver - Game Preview
by Steve Perrin on Nov 20, 2009 12:57 AM PST
in Game Previews
279 comments
2009/2010 NBA Regular Season
vs.
4-9 8-3
Staples Center
November 19th, 2009, 7:30 PM
FSN Prime Ticket, 980 AM
Probable starters:
Baron Davis
PG
Chauncey Billups
Rasual Butler
SG
Arron Afflalo
Al Thornton
SF
Carmelo Anthony
Marcus Camby
PF
Kenyon Martin
Chris Kaman
C
Nene
The Back Story:
First meeting of the season. Denver swept the season series last year 4-0 (but the first two were at least close).
The Big Picture:
The Clippers have lost two straight wire to wire against teams that were 3-8 and 2-10 at the time. Now they get to face the 8-3 Nuggets who beat the Lakers by 26 a week ago. This could get ugly. The Clippers remain without Eric Gordon (who is due back for Monday's game) and of course Blake Griffin, the two cornerstones of the future. They lost reserve guard Kareem Rush to a season-ending ACL tear on Tuesday night. And Marcus Camby, the former Nugget, is questionable with a lower back bruise. Baron Davis and Chris Kaman have been very good this season - but aside from Al Thornton beginning to show some life lately, the production from the rest of the team has been anemic. But offensive production aside, the team really needs to come out and give a solid effort tonight. They lost the game in New Orleans because they didn't rebound, losing that battle by 15. They lost the game in Memphis because they didn't defend, allowing the Grizzlies to shoot 54%. Rebounding and defense are about effort.
The Antagonist:
The Nuggets seem to be picking up where they left off with a Western Conference Finals berth last season. A very high payroll forced them to say goodbye to starter Dahntay Jones and key reserve Linas Kleiza - but they don't seem to be any the worse for it. They picked up Arron Afflalo to fill Jones' spot - athletic wing who defends and doesn't need the ball much. And whereas they don't appear to have a replacement for Kleiza, maybe they don't need one. Meanwhile, rookie Ty Lawson seems to be a steal at the 18th pick in the draft, and a major upgrade for them backing up the point guard position. With J.R. Smith back from suspension and heating up (he's increased his scoring each of the four games he's played this season, from 5 to 18 to 20 to 29) and Carmelo Anthony averaging almost 30 points per game, the Nuggets can score with anybody. Like I said, this could get ugly.
The Subplots:
- Baron versus Chauncey. Baron Davis and Chauncey Billups have been playing against each other for 11 seasons. I was a little surprised to see that they've only played head to head against each other 20 times. Baron has a slightly higher scoring average and more assists in their meetings. Baron is also having an arguably better season than Chauncey this year; his PER is higher, he's scoring a little more, handing out more assists and shooting a better percentage from the field, though Chauncey's shooting numbers are better when you consider three pointers and free throws. Still, you can't really measure Billups' impact in the box score alone, as we saw last season.
- Another Really Rested Opponent. For the second consecutive game, the Clippers are facing an opponent coming off a nice long rest. The Nuggets haven't played since Tuesday, and that was their only game in a week. Maybe they'll be rusty. Yeah, that's it.
- Kaman vs. Nene. Nene is a very talented player who has given Kaman real trouble in the past. It will be interesting to see how the new version matches up. Nene is coming off a monster game Tuesday, his best of the year - 20 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 steals and 4 blocks - he almost got one of those AK47 5 by 5's. Nene's numbers so far this season are almost identical to last season, which was a breakout. He doesn't really get enough recognition - this guy is good.
- Defending the wings. For the Clippers to have any chance in this game, they're going to have to keep Carmelo and J.R. from going off - no small matter. Al Thornton is a better on ball defender than he is off the ball, so putting him on Carmelo may be the best way to go. Smith may see some second stringer like Ricky Davis, but it won't matter much - when J.R. Smith is on, no one in the NBA can stop him except J.R. Smith.
- When will the booing start? Given the mood around the fan base right now, it won't take much to get the boos going tonight. People are pissed, and it's hard to blame them. If the Clippers fall behind, the crowd is going to get hostile real quick.
- Rhino Time? If Camby can't go tonight, Craig Smith will likely get the start at power forward. This will help the scoring, but will hurt the team defense - Rhino's not exactly a shot blocker. DeAndre Jordan will need to play significant minutes, and Brian Skinner may get some burn as well.
- Perimeter shooting. How badly to the Clippers miss Eric Gordon? Well, in the six games EJ's been out (five of them losses) the team has made just 25 of 85 three pointers - 29.4%. Without credible three point threats on the floor, defenses are free to sag onto Kaman with impunity.
-
TV Quote:
Blossom, The Power Puff Girls (1998) - I watch a lot of cartoons. I would say it's because I have kids. But the truth is, I watch a lot of cartoons. I always like Blossom, Bubbles and Buttercup. By the way, where does the King part of this breakfast cereal parody fit in? Lucky = the Leprechaun from Lucky Charms. Captain = Cap'n Crunch. Rabbit = the rabbit from Trix. Who is the King?Ridiculous Lucky Captain Rabbit King. Lucky Captain Rabbit King Nuggets are for the youth.
- Get the Nuggets perspective at Denver Stiffs.
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This will be a blood bath
They are about better at every position. Will the NBA invoke the first ever mercy rule
by Qlippers on Nov 20, 2009 1:10 AM PST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Amen to that
And I’m not sure “Baron has been playing very good” is a statement agreed by people across the board.
Tonight, we are going to get battered.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 2:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Denver is better at 2 positions PG and SF. thats it.
by Takebb909 on Nov 20, 2009 1:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
You don’t think JR Smith is better than Rasual Butler? Wow.
Also, I’d call the Kaman vs Nene pretty even. You’ll see tonight how hard Nene is to stop.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh man...
This is gonna be bad!
'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!
by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Nov 20, 2009 4:12 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
The Cereal King from the TV Quote....
…is King Vitaman, of course. I don’t think Quaker Oats has made it in years.
Back to the topic at hand, omigod.
by bpr on Nov 20, 2009 5:13 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
King Vitamin?
WTF? How have I never heard of this cereal? Is it possible they didn’t sell it in California? Where did you grow up?
By the way, one of his nemeses, according to Wikipedia, was the Blue Baron. Coincidence?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 20, 2009 9:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Possibly...
…the reasons you never heard of King Vitaman (which contributed to my occasional misspelling of “vitamin” when I was growing up) is that: a) I’m from Cincinnati, Ohio and b) I’m old enough to have followed the Cincinnati Royals.
by bpr on Nov 20, 2009 9:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm old enough
Wikipedia says it was introduced in 1970 – that was prime sugar-y cereal eating time for me, so I’m old enough. But no Cincinnati for me. Did you watch the Big O? I remember him a little in Milwaukee with Alcindor… but I did not see him in his prime.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 20, 2009 9:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Childhood Trauma
As much as I pleaded with my father to take me down to the Cincinnati Gardens, I never saw Robertson in person; only followed on the sports pages and radio. Then the Reds got good, and I forgot about basketball for a while.
by bpr on Nov 20, 2009 9:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
King Vitaman Commercial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMQz7Sp31s4
If BD shaved his beard (but not his mustache), he’d kind of look like the Blue Baron.
by bpr on Nov 20, 2009 10:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jay Ward animation...
The Rocky and Bullwinkle guy. Interesting.
Sorry to dredge up sad memories with the Big O thing.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 20, 2009 12:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is going to be a fun game...
…if you’re a Nuggets fan…
Melo will probably drop 50 on us tonight, with Billups outplaying Baron and Lawson coming off the bench and running cricles around our perimeter “defenders”. I also don’t expect too much out of Kaman tonight, cause Nene’s a very solid and physical defender and could easily get him into foul trouble.
Though, maybe this one helps getting rid of Dunleavy, if we’re embrassed on National TV.
by Silvio on Nov 20, 2009 7:44 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
man! I forgot this was on ESPN tonight!
maybe the Don will be sitting courtside, hear the boos and read about his national embarrassment!
Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"
by Lawler's Law on Nov 20, 2009 8:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Please be loud with the fire dunleavy's if you're there.
I live in NYC otherwise I’d go to the game just to embarrass Dunleavy & Sterling on ESPN with boos the way they have embarrassed the team and these players with this pathetic excuse of basketball this season. You don’t see NOH using Chris Paul’s injury as an excuse when they’ve just won 2 in a row or SAC better start than ours with Kevin Martin injured & a bunch of nba traveler’s. It’s pathetic. The only positive for the Clippers is they generally have seemed to play to their talent level this season, good against good teams but not good enough and bad against bad teams and then some.
by chrisd on Nov 20, 2009 8:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm starting to sour on GMDsr
Looking at the potential crap-tastic lineup we’ll be sporting tonight (particularly if it is Smith instead of Camby) I’m starting to feel like this is 2007-2008 all over again. Solid play from starting PG and Center; polarizing player at SF but capable of scoring, and absolutely nothing else. I guess it will get better once Gordon is back on Monday, but this lineup tonight is brutal.
I can’t help but think how the Clippers are a few simple moves away from entering this season with a starting lineup of Gordon, Maggette, Randolph and Kaman; my dream team. 150 points a night! Dunleavy has made some nice draft picks, but as I step back and look over the moves made, I’m not pleased.
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 7:49 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
GMMDsr
I don’t understand the general acceptance of GMMDsr. Take a look at our roster and there are only two players about whom you can say they possess an above average basketball IQ: Gordon and Griffin (and even Griffin’s reputation needs to be proved in NBA games.) I don’t see how a coach with arguably the most complex playbook in the league can expect to win with a team largely comprised of players with a below-average basketball IQ.
Dunleavy’s half-court schemes are designed for players who can read defenses and rapidly process various scenarios. However, one can argue that this is a team full of athletes who are much more suited for a more free-flowing game in which they could rely on their natural ability over intelligence. I realize this is just recycling the “half-court vs. uptempo” debate but if you have a coach with a defined style of play, and that person is also responsible for the construction of the team, is it unreasonable to expect that the players on the team would fit in that coach’s system?
So, whenever I hear someone say something like, “Dunleavy has been a very good GM the last couple of years,” I shake my head because it is fairly obvious that the players don’t match his system, and he is responsible for every player on the roster.
by Dunleavy is an Idiot on Nov 20, 2009 9:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You've actually got that pretty much backwards
Continuation style offenses, like the Triangle or the Flex, actually require players to have the higher basketball IQ. These are basic sets and movements, where almost everything that happens on the court is based on a read, and for teams to be effective, players have to be reading the same things. Utah, Lakers – these are the teams with the ‘thin’ play books, and they are also the most sophisticated offenses requiring the most out of their players from an IQ standpoint.
The two thousand page Dunleavy playbook requires a ton of memorization – but much less creativity. That’s why it’s 2000 pages – because everything is mapped out. There are of course reads as there are in any offense, but far fewer once the play is called.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 20, 2009 9:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well I heard it was 500 plays....
so 4 pages per play isn’t entirely unreasonable lol.
by Newtybar on Nov 20, 2009 10:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Baron is on page 2
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 10:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that would explain the same play being ran over and over again.
by Newtybar on Nov 20, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It is a little wierd...
… this 2 to 500 play ratio thing. I certainly don’t see the kind of variety you might expect from such a large playbook.
by SilverClip on Nov 20, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They are subtle changes.
To the untrained eye, it looks like we haven’t got a clue for the first 20 seconds of the shot clock and then we chuck up a shot. But really, we are playing the triangle, moving the D around in the hope to create an opportunity to score.
Nah, it’s just dunny’s bible of basketball that someone gave the man for Xmas one year!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly right
What requires more intelligence from players, playing the ball movement game in high tempo, or having everybody clear out and throwing the ball to EB or Randolph and telling them to do their thing.
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 9:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely on the money
Which is why ZBo fitted in so well last year. We just dropped the ball into him and watched him back down his defender and try and score each time.
I feel with the athleticism of our players, a Dunleavy half court bible is not utilising our players physically. As SP said though, the mental aspect is also important and some of our players have shown no signs of having high bball IQ’s.
Baron is an enigma to me. It’s clear the guy is intelligent and on the floor, sometimes he does things that make me feel we should give him way more control over that team. Other times he does things that make me think he’d abuse that control.
I don’t know much about Lucas. What sort of head coach was he previously?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 10:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess you might say
Mr. Idiot demonstrated technically a lack of savvy, in the parlance of our times.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 10:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're just now starting to sour ?
I still don’t understand why he signed BD to a 5 year 65 M contract, at 29 years old, knowing that BD only thrives in the up tempo game, and knowing that he doesn’t coach that way.
I remember talking to EB three years ago about MDSr. He wouldn’t say anything bad – he just rolled his eyes. That’s when I knew he woudln’t re sign. That might fortuitously have been a good thing, but it doesn’t bode well for the future.
The GM is supposed to find players that work well with the coach’s style. Has that happened?
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 9:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re just now starting to sour ?
I knew that was coming. That’s not really true of course (that I’m just not starting to sour, so I shouldn’t have phrased it that way), today is not the first time I’ve noted moves I’ve disagreed with. As you can see in the rest of my post, I’m disappointed that two of those players are no longer Clippers and expressed as much at the time.
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well at least we only play 3 game in the first 2 weeks in December
Plenty of time for Griffin to get back to help make our “now or never” push lol.
by dulciusEXasperis on Nov 20, 2009 8:31 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
too bad
we’ll probably be a good 10 games behind .500 by that time and this was the easiest part of the schedule. Damn injuries are killing us, but lack of pride and stepping up has been just as detrimental.
by chrisd on Nov 20, 2009 8:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but lack of pride and stepping up has been just as detrimental
if not worse. Well rather have the guys coming back for the hard finish and playing the “easy” month with the injuries. Having our legitimate 3 point threat and a more offensive PF should open things up for the rest of the team, in theory. Who the hell knows anymore.
by dulciusEXasperis on Nov 20, 2009 9:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
For Dun, it really will be now or never
If he has all his players and still can’t turn out something decent, I don’t see how he can survive.
Of course, by the time he has everyone back, morale might be so low that it’ll be too hard to right the ship. I really hope we maintain a modicum of respectability until then (like avoiding a series of blowout loses). The irony is, saving a sinking ship might be too much to ask of any coach. I wonder if he would use that one as an excuse.
by SilverClip on Nov 20, 2009 10:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry, he'll think of some other excuse
The schedule, the refs, the fans, whatever. It’s always something.
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 10:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Final Score
128-94 Clippers Win!
JK
JM
by kingjames10 on Nov 20, 2009 9:24 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
John R - "Carmelo is garbage"
Ergo he thinks the Clippers should win
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 9:28 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
When did I say this?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Right here
Carmelo
Anthony personifies the problem. Why is he even considered in the class with the others? The marketing machine still rules.
Carmelo is garbage.
by John R on Aug 24, 2007 4:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
http://www.clipsnation.com/2007/8/24/19011/1453#5037903
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 11:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Two years ago
He was garbage then. Ask me what I think of him now.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 11:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You asked
And no, I’m not the one who’s dishonest.
Apology accepted.
And seriously you should stop hating. It clouds the mind (to cite you from two days ago).
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 11:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Quoting me from two years ago without noting that it is from two years ago is quite dishonest actually.
It is what it is though.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 11:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I see
I’m not dishonest for pointing out what you said even though you denied it.
But I am dishonest because I didn’t mention the precise date on which you said it.
I’m rapidly tiring of you.
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 11:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I asked when I said it
I didn’t deny it.
I suspected it was about two years ago.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 11:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually by calling me dishonest you implied that you didn't say it
Hoping I wouldn’t go back – but I did and you look silly.
Again. So let’s just agree to move on before you do more damage to yourself.
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 11:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Noone reading this thinks you look good
Except your delusional self I guess.
You read into it why I thought it was dishonest. Timing matters in basketball players. There was a time in Kareem’s career when he was great and a time in Kareem’s career when he was garbage.
It matters a lot when I call a player garbage. Not including a timeframe is a lie of omission. So yea, you were being dishonest.
But look. I agree. If you feel like you look good at this point in the discussion. Quit it. We can let it stand.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 11:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I could care less how I look
Apparently that’s important to you. But since you mentioned it I wasn’t aware that you spoke for everyone here.
Actually, I said it as a joke. Obviously I struck a nerve.
Now that you mention it, it always struck me as odd and not very nice for a poster to call an NBA player “garbage.” Particularly when at the time you slammed him the player was playing for your country, for YOU on Team USA. I guess that’s not very important to you.
Then again, perhaps you’re such a great basketball player yourself that you have the right to diss him.
No, no that can’t be it.
By the way, just when was it when Kareem was garbage?
High school? No he was great.
UCLA? Um, no.
The Bucks? Don’t think so.
Lakers? Nyet.
So you look silly again. Must be sad to be you.
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 11:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
you must be a great coach and GM given your criticism of MDSr.
by oneight on Nov 20, 2009 1:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes it takes a great coach to opine
that a sub .400 record is not very good
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Particularly when at the time you slammed him the player was playing for your country, for YOU on Team USA. I guess that’s not very important to you.
No, its not. LOL
When did you add bizarre, misplaced patriotism to your repertoire?
You don’t know about Hubie Brown.
You don’t know about when Kareem was hurting the Lakers.
Man, your NBA knowledge is thin.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 1:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m rapidly tiring of you.
Also, I find this to be dishonest as well.
You will never quit me.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 11:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, do you think Carmelo is generally considered to be in the class of Lebron and Wade now
I think I was quite right then.
Thanks for pointing this out.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 11:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're welcome ;-)
Again, apology accepted.
No need to hate players.
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 11:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I see you can't answer the question
So thanks x2.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 11:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't know, don't care.
I think he’s a good player.
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 11:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You might be among the most dishonest people I have ever encountered in my life
Congratulations are in order I suppose.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Slightly off topic here
but do you see anything other than a beatdown for us tonight John?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 10:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No
They beat down the Lakers. Who is their right mind would bet on the Clippers tonight?
This of course adds nothing to nor takes away from the Dunleavy discussion.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 10:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No mate, it doesn't
Sorry, I meant the Clippers recieving the beatdown.
I know you won’t be happy judging Dunny unless he has his full roster available but I think we are all discussed out about that today mate!!!!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 10:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Based on the thread
I don’t think that is the case.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 10:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I guess.
I don’t think these discussions or protests are going to go away until either, Dunny is sacked or we managed to put a decent run together.
Thing is, if you want a coached sacked, you should stick to that even if he turns it around in the short term. You can’t complain about years of underachieving and then change your mind if things turn.
By the way, I don’t mean you in that, I know you support him and whilst I don’t agree, I respect your view.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think John supports him per se...
He just doesn’t see any evidence to fire him.
by Newtybar on Nov 20, 2009 10:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
For me if he doesn't want him fired after
his record then he supports him.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 10:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Believe what you like
It isn’t true, but believe what you like.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well c'mon
You either support him as coach or you don’t support him. Which is it?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You still seem to misunderstand fundamentally
Coaches don’t matter. I don’t care about the coach.
I care because the Clippers will almost certainly pick an interim or otherwise cheap coach to replace him, and in that extreme case coaches can matter and lose the vets like Camby, and because it would seem to leave Sterling/Roeser as GM in the middle of a complete rebuild.
Only Baron/Gordon/*gulp*Thornton/Griffin/Kaman/Jordan matter beyond this year. That’s basically 10 roster slots to fill because I don’t consider Thornton a solution at this point. And if you lose Baron once and for good its 11. Good luck with that.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow!
Ok, you are from the Simmons school of thinking the coaches don’t matter.
With regards to your comment over losing the vets. Do you think Dunny had them last year? Camby was the only one who wasn’t lost and that cos he actually has some pride in his appearances.
I’ve not seen much to show that these players are fully committed to Dunny so far this year.
I think Gordon/Griffin/Kaman/Jordan/Smith are keys for the future but doesn’t mean you have to move all the pieces at once.
Rid ourselves of the coach that doesn’t improve the team and try to get a wing peice for Camby’s expiring. That is the way I’d move. There will be plenty of PG’s in the draft.
Moving Baron will be tricky but we moved ZBo so maybe Memphis will go mad again!!!
For me, coaches do matter, that is why you see top coaches like Jackson, Sloan, Pop have success year after year, even with rosters that turnover.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Dunny had them last year?
Don’t know. Doesn’t really matter though. Last year was going down that way no matter what. No coach alive was winning more than 22 games with that team with those injuries. I know you don’t think injuries matter and therefore players don’t matter, but they do. They matter a lot.
I’ve not seen much to show that these players are fully committed to Dunny so far this year.
Doesn’t matter. The notion that the players need to be committed to the coach is believing in magic.
I think Gordon/Griffin/Kaman/Jordan/Smith are keys for the future but doesn’t mean you have to move all the pieces at once.
You are the Clippers and your window is Gordon becoming a FA. You don’t have to make moves all at once, but you have to make them quickly. And you are playing from behind because you are the Clippers and you just hired a GM on the cheap. Godspeed!
Moving Baron will be tricky but we moved ZBo so maybe Memphis will go mad again!!!
Moving Baron isn’t actually a solution. You would need to move Baron and still come up with a PG. And you are the Clippers and Roeser is your GM.
that is why you see top coaches like Jackson, Sloan, Pop have success year after year
You’ve mixed up the cart and the horse. Those coaches have success because they have had Jordan, Shaq, Stockton and Malone and Duncan on their teams for their whole careers.
At any rate, I thought you didn’t want to talk about this.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Believe it or not
I like talking with you about it. Being a sports fan is about opinions and it’s good to talk to people with different ones. I’m sure there are things about the Clippers we agree on, it just appears that Dunny isn’t one of them!!
Injuries don’t matter and players don’t matter! C’mon, both matter but what I said was that we have a roster and that should be able to cover somewhat. We have capitulated with one sophomore and one rookie out. Not a well built team!
I agree the window around Gordon is what you focus on and getting a good PG is key and that you have to turn Camby or Baron (or both) into that position.
I’ll miss some out as I’ve gotta put my kids to bed (!) but your final point is partly true. The great players helped the coaches but also the coaches helped the great players by finding complimentary pieces and having a plan that got the best out of those teams. Look at the idiot coach at Cleveland. Got the best player and hasn’t got a clue how to help him. Mostly a 1-5 iso play!! Dunny unfortunately fits into that. If CP3 came here, Dunny would break him down until he was a broken man!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 11:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
cover somewhat.
This is where we disagree mightily.
The Pareto principle applies to basketball too.
80% of your wins are generally speaking going to come from 3 of your players. If you lose one of those three you are hurting bad. Last year they basically lost all three for long stretches. This year they are down one and really Griffin is supposed to become another. You can discount this if you like as they are young, but age ain’t nothin but a number. Gordon matters a whole lot right now and Griffin was expected to.
There are two interesting exceptions now. One is Houston which has used a moneyball approach to identify above average wins producers to be had on the cheap. They are quite deep at each position while maintaining a reasonable salary. Very welly done. TMac returning, though traditionally viewed as a big win producer, will probably hurt them. Smartest guys in the room by far. Props to them.
The other is the Lakers. They have stockpiled big wins producers by making an exceedingly unlikely trade for Gasol and then spending through the roof. Even so, they have lost 3 games including an embarrassing blowout at home. This approach is not likely to be able to be replicated by the Clippers.
The Clippers are deep in the sense that their 7th man is good for a 7th man and their 10th man is good for a 10th man. They are not deep in the sense that their 7th man is a good #2 option. That’s nearly impossible to achieve in the modern NBA salary cap system.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 11:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't take
a Pareto principle to determine that each team needs three reliable scorers / good players to win. I’ve been saying that for years. See the Spurs.
You point to Houston as an exception – it’s not an exception. Three new players are stepping up – Brooks, Scola and Ariza. You just haven’t heard of them. And to argue that the coach has nothing to do with getting the players to play in a system that produces wins is laughable. Adelman is a proven winner and a great coach. Again, referring to players as “win producers” is really not very helpful. The coach is an integral part of the success of the team.
MDSr tried to assemble a good team here. The problem is that he’s signed players who are past their prime for long term contracts like BD. MDSr blew the Clippers’ wad on the wrong guy. He needs a go to guy. Maybe BG will step up (but that’s not an MDSr signing).
And MDSr needs to find a coach who will employ a system that will help them succeed. That’s where you and the rest of us differ.
Yes the good coaches have had good players. But other coaches have had good players too and they don’t win.
Coaches do matter.
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
So you invented a big three for Houston. Sounds good.
Of couse you didn’t pick the right three, but whatever.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Surely
those are the right 3 big players for the Rockets this year?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
However do you mean?
I have McGrady, Ming and Battier as their big 3 by salary.
Ariza, Brooks and Landry as their big 3 by PPG. But then Scola is only .1PPG behind so I guess that can change tomorrow?
Can a big 3 change on a daily basis? Wouldn’t that negate the idea of a big 3 since they would be a big 4.
Maybe its PER? Well then its Landry (whoops) and Scola as the only two significantly above average players. I don’t think a big 2 is enough to get it done. Even Jordan and Pippen had Rodman. Noone else on the Rockets cracks 16. A PER of 15 indicates average, of course.
Sorry guys, Houston smashes the mold of a big 3. It just doesn’t fit.
Or maybe you have a different way than the traditional ways of determining a big 3?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh
Big three means the three players who will carry the team, whoever they may be. You could have others who are good but you need at least three. Doesn’t need to be your biggest scorers.
You are trying to fit this into a formula because you love stats but really this is just basketball.
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh all you want
There is no big 3 in Houston. You are demonstrably wrong here.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm contradicting myself here a bit
but I’d say that with Houston as an example, the big 3 players are somewhat less defined that in other teams but that is due to the fact that their two biggest players are out injured and so the players that would be normally below the big 3 players are stepping up into that void. Yep, not the best example. I need a lie down!!!!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd have to agree with Jax here
It’s about the players who contribute most to the team. That certainly isn’t done by salary. I suppose you could use PER as a tool but not over the first few games of the season and you also have to look at minutes played with PER.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a pretty circular argument guys
You have to have a big three to win… ergo, if you win, whoever the three best players are is your big three.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 20, 2009 12:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The truth isn't circular
Good NBA teams generally have three players they can count on. See a winning team and you’ll find them.
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for breaking me
out of this vicious circle of a discussion. I was getting quite dizzy.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The pareto principle
doesn’t quite go into your figure there does it.
If you have a 10 man rotation then your pareto principle means that 80% of your wins come from 2 of your players. Not really true at all.
Yep, the rockets have found players often with a point to prove and so they play hard. The sort of team that never knows when they are beaten, totally unlike our lot who capitulate as soon as the 4th quarter starts.
On paper, the clippers are quite a deep team. We have potential 7 players that are starter level – Kaman, Camby, Griffin, Davis, Gordon, Thornton, Butler. Now the last two have not had good starts to the season but were both starters last year.
You then have cover in experienced players like Smith, Telfair and I will just ignore the shadow that once was Ricky Davis.
So without your rookie and sophomore, you have 5 NBA starter level players and two experienced players. You also have a sharpshooter on the bench in Novak.
From that rotation of 8 (with 2 out), you should be able to tough out some games against opposition that are also missing players such as the Hornets. Not us, we are unable to show any strength and workrate when the chips are down.
I like Smith though. He really seems to battle and I think we miss a tough player like that. I’m hoping Blake will bring that toughness to our team cos I think we are just not nasty enough on the floor. Baron can wander around with that frown on but we just don’t compete hard enough.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There are 14-15 players on most rosters
It works quite well actually…
On paper, the clippers are quite a deep team.
The important part is how you read the paper. Thornton is NOT a starter quality level player. He generally one of the worst players in the league. He has nights where he is transcendant, and then stinks for a month. Gordon and Griffin from your list are out. So now, uh oh, you are down to four starter quality level players here. Hopefully alarms are going off, but I can see that they aren’t.
The list of things you seem to value don’t jive with the things that matter. It is unlikely that I can disabuse you of this notion in this short format.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No it doesn't
How many teams have a rotation of 14-15 players? Only a rotation of about 10 players are used on most teams so you can’t count the ones that don’t play into contributing for any given win.
I can’t believe I’m arguing over something this stupid……………
“The list of things you seem to value don’t jive with the things that matter”
Ah. So because I don’t agree with you, the things I believe in don’t matter. I see what sort of person I am dealing with here. Closed minded to the last I believe.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not because you disagree with me
But because the things you cite as things you value don’t correlate with wins in any way.
“you can’t count the ones that don’t play into contributing for any given win.”
Well why not? Once players get injured, the ones that don’t play enter the 10 man rotation.
Because you don’t agree doesn’t mean you can just cancel out players as non-players.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Players who arent' contributing on any given
night (i.e. DNP) cannot be counted into the equation of that team winning. They put up no stats and did nothing on the floor to help the team. That is what I am saying.
Depends if you looking at this over each game or over the season I suppose.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why would I look at any one game
and come to any conclusion?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, I see!
You are applying the Pareto to the season. My misunderstanding.
I suppose you could make a case for that over a season, that the big 3 players on a roster contribute to 80% of the wins.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry - he
(1) doesn’t really know what he’s talking about; and
(2) lacks social skills
Lethal combo
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a minute, I'm a little confused picking up this
thread off and on. We’ve got people saying coaches don’t matter, and then saying players don’t matter. We might as well say owners don’t matter – and then wins and losses don’t matter.
Whew, I’m glad I figured that out. Besides, I always thought Phil Jackson was a bum.
by eastie Rich on Nov 20, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Coaches only don't matter
When you are searching desperately for a reason not to get rid of a coach who was sub .400 for seven years running.
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You can’t complain about years of underachieving and then change your mind if things turn.
No you can’t, can you.
It would seem to put some folks in an awkward position medium term. The team succeeds with Dunleavy, but you have to see him fail to get what you want. We see these comments already starting to spring up.
To each their own I guess.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just looking at your signature.
Is the Simmons book any good? Getting it for Xmas.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 10:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Its fun so far if you like Simmons
There are some nice insights but lots of Simmons drivel too. Find it on sale.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 10:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Even Simmons drivel is funny...
…just don’t take it too seriously. I’ll look to pick it up.
by Newtybar on Nov 20, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You are in for 700 pages though
So I hope you REALLY like it.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Feel pretty much the same about Simmons
Sometimes he gets into the meat of subjects but sometimes it’s just his personal opinion off topic crap. Hard enough to find it in the UK, let alone on Sale!!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I always read him
find him funny, but he’s maddening if you take him seriously. I do think he is an excellent writer.
The only two writers I read at the dot com any more are Simmons and Pat Forde.
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 11:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
TMQ is the best thing on the site since HST passed.
Its football and I am not into football but I read it anyway. Its that good.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I haven’t read him in years. He’s a bit on the wordy side for him.
I find his oogling of cheerleaders a little creepy, and he goes overboard in the sportmanship stuff at times.
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Won't disagree
But the main article insight each week is often the smartest thing I find on the internet in any arena.
The Belicheat piece this week was great.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Even more slightly off topic
Hey John (and anyone else)— What do predict is going to happen when the two G’s return?
by SilverClip on Nov 20, 2009 10:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on a number of factors
Assuming the franchise hasn’t given the veterans a reason to completely shut down, the Clippers will go as far as the kids will take them.
If Griffin is in fact the chosen one, a playoff spot is as on the table as ever.
If he is not the chosen one, probably somewhere between 32-38 wins.
If the franchise has given Baron, Camby, Butler, Kaman, et al a reason to shut it down, I expect anything could happen. Anything is possible with an interim coach and Roeser as your GM and Camby agitating for release/trade.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 10:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I worry too we might shut it down
Fear the blowout.
by SilverClip on Nov 20, 2009 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon is much more important
assuming that Camby isn’t on the shelf for an extended period of time (and considering his injury history, perhaps I shouldn’t make that assumption.) The drop off from Gordon to Butler at SG has been a disaster. Gordon’s return will be a huge upgrade with Butler going to the bench.
For Griffin, I wasn’t expecting that much out of him this year to begin with. He’ll match up against certain opponents better than Camby does (like Zach Randolph for example) but I just want to get Griffin in a working. He needs to get used to the speed of the pro game and start developing. With Griffin, he just needs the PT to get into game shape. I don’t see him being nearly as dominant as Gordon was last year. Griffin has the higher ceiling and will need to take time to get there, so getting him back and working is quite important.
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 10:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon came in pretty polished.
These are only my opinions but:
On the offensive end, I think it is easier to come in as a wing and be more productive. It seems pretty difficult for big men to come in and dominate offensively right away.
Where Griffin could make the most impact is on the defensive end and being more physical.
by Newtybar on Nov 20, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Like we were saying before his injury, it looks like it’ll take some time for Griffin to refine his offensive game. But oh man, would I love to have his hustle and size/speed on the defensive end. There have been more than a few times so far when I wanted him rather than Camby.
I’d also love to get 32-38 wins this year, at the rate things are going.
by SilverClip on Nov 20, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
On the offensive end, I think it is easier to come in as a wing and be more productive. It seems pretty difficult for big men to come in and dominate offensively right away.
I agree 100%. That’s why I think the important this is just to get Griffin back just so he can get his work in. Being a 1 and done, he’ll need to make an adjustment to the pro game, which is going to be more difficult now after being on the shelf for 6 weeks.
In terms of impacting this season, no question Gordon is the more important player.
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If the players have any friends on Denver they might ask them to pour it on
as much as possible. Don’t be surprised if this is a blowout of epic proportions. They’d be doing the Clippers a favor by helping them get rid of the coach.
by eastie Rich on Nov 20, 2009 11:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well - since you've asked - here's your 'Carmelo is garbage' quote
Feel free to apologize . . .
http://www.clipsnation.com/2007/8/24/19011/1453#5037903
Carmelo
Anthony personifies the problem. Why is he even considered in the class with the others?
* * *
“Carmelo is garbage.”
by John R on Aug 24, 2007 4:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
http://www.clipsnation.com/2007/8/24/19011/1453#5037903
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 11:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
oh i can't help but comment
….but someone digging for someone else’s quote from 2 YEARS ago have issues…maybe obsessive…..
Three years ago the clippers are in the playoffs. I’m sure we can dig quotes from back then (from whoever) that will state that Dunleavy is the BEST coach the Clippers has ever had…LMAO
by clipFanInSD on Nov 20, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't dig - just remembered it and threw it in
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So you remembered it off the top?
I guess we can remove the maybe from the obsessive allegation.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes - the fact that you called an NBA player "garbage" always stuck with me
It’s not obsession – it’s just a reminder of how silly you are
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
it's funny how CMDSr was raving about the depth of the team at the start of the season...
and now that he lost a rookie for the first 2 months and a 2nd year player for 2 weeks the clippers are incapable of winning a game.So much for depth.
As for the game, it’s probably going to be a beatdown on an epic scale, but I’m still going to watch because there’s always a little glimmer of hope the clips might win.
by cantthinkofagoodname on Nov 20, 2009 9:51 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yep
That is EXACTLY what I was saying yesterday. Depth disappeared when our 90 career game strong players are out!!!!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hm maybe this could be SPs next question to MDsr?
by Newtybar on Nov 20, 2009 10:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would love it if he asked that.
Wouldn’t it be great if he held a little press conference for Clips Nation readers!!!! Never in a million years!!!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
Mark Medina asked yesterday. As you might imagine, the answer wasn’t very satisfying. Basically he said there are injuries and there are injuries, and that losing Griffin and Gordon was too much. He did also express some disappointment in the team’s play in New Orleans.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 20, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What!!!
Losing Griffin and Gordon was too much!!!! he is the GM who has built this roster!!! Does he not plan for injuries?
So injuries to your sophomore star and your rookie who has never even played mean your team crumbles. Strange because the Blazers didn’t crumble last year or the year before when Oden was missing for long stretches and he’s their number one pick.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're just a fan - you're too stupid to understand
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point and well made
Nothing I like better than to support a team where the coach coaches like sh*t and then when the fans get on his back, he tells them that they don’t know what they are talking about.
Put it this way. If I performed in my job like he does then I’d be looking for another one. Just as he should.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You'd be smarter if, as John R points out below
you were to talk about stats, algorhythms, etc. (as he does)
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But guys
everybody here was also suggesting there was plenty of depth on the team. Only the few enlightened souls (I kid, I kid) pointed out that trading your best offensive player the year after having the worst offensive team in the NBA because “there is a glut of bigs” wasn’t the best idea.
Kill Dunleavy if you want, but plenty of people here would have made the exact same mistakes.
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No way
Noone suggested the team would miss Randolph. Never happened.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we miss his scoring threat inside
when I look at our team sometimes but we certainly don’t miss his D.
He was useful when we ran out of ideas (often) last year and he could score as no-one else other than Gordon knew what the hell to do.
All the same, glad he’s gone.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ZBo looks pretty good this year...motivated and fit...
Seemed like everyone liked him too….pretty positive person.
Not nearly the “cancer” everyone thinks he is.
by Newtybar on Nov 20, 2009 11:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Look, he gets terrible press and he doesn't strike me
as the smartest of fellows. He’d be a very good player if he could be bothered to move his backside on D.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 11:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Glad he's gone?
Do you realize that Craig Smith is possibly the starting PF tonight?
And even with a healthy Camby, who has Camby shut down this year that Randolph would have been exposed by?
Camby certainly didn’t shut down Randolph, but since you can’t play yourself, we won’t count that one.
Bosh? Nope.
David West? Nope
Couldn’t you argue that guys like Bosh, West and Randolph are going to get there points anyway, so wouldn’t it be nice to have a PF who could abuse them on the other end.
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I know you have ZBo posters on your wall
so I’m not gonna win a ZBo argument with you but for everything good on the offensive end that ZBo does, he cripples the team on the defensive end with his lack of footwork that just has any athletic forward aiming straight for him.
You could argue that about Bosh, West etc but it would be nice to make those players work hard for their points rather than give them a bus ticket to the basket!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 11:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Has Marcus Camby gotten been on the winning end of a battle against any opposing PF this year?
I just find this fascinating. I mean, I watch a lot of basketball, so I don’t see any of these things (like giving the guy the free ticket to the lane) that you mention. I don’t remember any athletic PF crushing Zach Randolph last year. And again, you say you would like to make West and Bosh work on the offensive end, but at a minimum Randolph guarantees that they will have to work on the defensive end.
Combine Randolph’s ability to dominate in the post with Kaman, and this team would be a force.
Marcus Camby is a nice player, but he just won’t expose anybody on the offensive end, and several posters have noted that his defensive ineffiencies are quite real in their own right.
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 11:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OPP PER
Camby’s opposite PF is putting up a PER of 21.8 this year. An All-Star performance every night!
Randolph’s opposite PF averaged a PER of 17.9. Still above average but at least he isn’t killing you.
That said, the team defense this year suffers a lot worse this year when Camby leaves the floor this year than when Randolph did last year, but that’s super complicated to isolate. Was Camby subbing in for Randolph? Is Smith just terribad?
Suffice to say that Randolph appears to have been the much better man defender, despite appearances.
Even still dumping Randolph was probably the right move by GMDSr. The trouble for CMDSr, as some of us noted at the time, is that it makes the team worse in the short term. So basically by doing right by the franchise in the long term in his role as GM, Dunleavy shot himself in the foot as a coach in the short term.
If he didn’t feel like he had stability entering the season, does he make that move? Does he trade Randolph because, as everyone in basketball has noted, it is almost certainly the right move long term for the franchise, even though it will cost wins this season? Does he say screw three years, I won’t be here anyway, so I’m sticking with Randolph?
Stability matters folks.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not when it's 7 years of stability that
brings no success. No it doesn’t!!!!!!!!
Winning matters, not stability.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There has been success
Oh how our memories are short. Unless you mean win a championship.
If that’s the case, let me just go ahead and schedule out coaching changes every 2-4 years forever, because it ain’t happening.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There has been one season of relative success
By that I mean success for this franchise. Conference semi finals.
Where is the other success in this time period? Are you happy making the playoffs once every seven year John? If so, I can see why you don’t want to get rid of Dunleavy.
Maybe the other fans on these boards are a little more ambitious than yourself regarding how they want this team to perform.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're fine with sub .400 and one winning season in 7 years?
Wow you must love MDSr
Come on – you’re him – just admit it
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha Ha Ha
Was it when he talked about his injured son that it gave it away…….
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Given the circumstances
Yes, I’m ok with everything thats transpired.
Its a shame you are not capable of grasping depth (or stats, or lies of omission, or obsession, or any other number of concepts that the smart kids talk about), but winning percentage is just a number.
True or false right now: Hubie Brown is a better NBA coach than Mike Dunleavy Sr?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is where John R's lack of social skills begin to kick in
He’s got little left. So he reverts to “what the smart kids talk about” (since that’s what he tries to talk about.
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So you don't care answer the true/false
That’s Jax for ya. Happy to argue against other people, never comfortable (have confidence kid!) to state his own.
True or false right now: Hubie Brown is a better NBA coach than Mike Dunleavy Sr?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry - didn't see it
I’d have to go back and check. I remember Hubie from the Grizzly days with an interesting coaching style. I know he coached the Knicks before that but I don’t recall how he did.
Can I get back to you?
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What's there to get back on?
Seems like a simple question. He’s a national treasure?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And you claim to know basketball
I rate this triple facepalm. Ladies and gentlemen the deep and wide basketball knowledge of Jax.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well it was more an allegation of ignorance
Though mixing those up might make you dumb. Not enough info to know for sure.
Were you able to answer the simple true/false question yet?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No too busy making jokes about your job
Come on
teacher?
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jax
You should probably know. And I say this because I care about your mental health.
At the meetups. Everyone mocks you for this behavior. And I try to downplay it because I feel bad for you. But they are all laughing at you.
It doesn’t impress anyone and it doesn’t hurt me. Its just not healthy behavior.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 1:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it John R Hollinger?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 1:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take Hubie in a moment over Dunleavy. I knew
this was a trick question so I looked it up. Overall, Dunleavy has a higher winning percentage, but he also has more losing seasons. Hubie won COY twice and one championship. And, if you just want to compare his seasons with the Clippers – there’s no real comparison.
There’s a reason when Hubie retired he was hired as an analyst – and he did a pretty good job. Yeah, I can’t wait to hear Dunleavy’s insights on ESPN – never happen.
by eastie Rich on Nov 20, 2009 2:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He's already worked for TNT for the playoffs
So.
Yeah.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What happened in your post here?
You are ok with everything that transpired!!! You are happy with one playoff season in 7 years?
I’m not sure you should be talking about the smart kids then John. Maybe you are one of those smart kids that are so smart they don’t like, or understand sports. I think this is the issue here.
You are like that guy off the series of CSI Numbers or whatever who takes everything and breaks into into mathematic equations.
Real world. You don’t win, you dont’ go to the playoffs. We don’t win therefore we don’t go to the playoffs.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont understand the question in the title of the post
But yes I am ok with everything that has transpired.
I didn’t say I was happy with it, but I am ok with it.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine but I just don't think
you are as ambitious for this team as the majority of fans on these boards.
I say that because it is precisely the reasons behind our 7 (or 6!) years without success that people want him gone. We don’t want another 3/4/5 years with more excuses and no more success.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Be as ambitious as you want
And schedule yourself for a coaching and/or GM change every 3-4 years forever.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fine. I'd rather be ambitious and
take the calculated risks rather than sit here and be the laughing stock for the next 10 years.
We have two very talented players now. I don’t want them wasted on a poor coach.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta add one more based on your comment above
amend to state (or stats, or circular arguments…
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just what is it that you do for a living, John?
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of having nothing left...
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just wondering - since you're so darn smart
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You do wonder about me often don't you
My personal details. Where I went to school. What sports I played. What I do for a living.
And here you are trying to say you are not obsessed.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We are double checking your answers
with the Mike Dunleavy Bio page to see if you are the same man.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not obsessed, just looking for evidence
to support my belief that you don’t know much about the game of basketball
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Although MDSr may think you're smart
because, although you are a fan like us, you don’t think he should be canned.
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Its true he probably wasn't speaking to me
The quote was “They don’t understand and they don’t weigh issues the way that you weigh them. They know wins and losses.”
Its like he was talking just to you!
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you wonder why a coach who has
had 1 winning season in 7 tries to deflect away from the win/loss record?
I’d love to list his top 5 excuses over his period as coach.
Well, you’ve got Injuries and then injuries followed by some more injuries etc, etc.
What do they do about them? Why aren’t a professional ball club reviewing why we have so many or are they just putting it down to “The Curse”?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well thank you
I can only take that to mean you can’t find them here so you need to investigate my personal life.
Still stalker status though.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If John says
statistician then I am little going to wet myself laughing
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
it's got to be something like that
accountant, book keeper, statistician, scientist
whatever the job is, he believes that it’s the most important job for the company
something that requires number crunching so most won’t do it
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I am seriously wondering
if he is Mike Dunleavy’s accountant!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It wouldn't be the first
paranoid fantasy round here.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Man
You are really bad at this. But it doesn’t surprise.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
NBA Basketball Coach?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Son/brother/sister of NBA basketball coach
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Father of an NBA player?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
You are an obsessed stalker. It would be foolish to let you into my life even the slightest.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Um, I don't want to be in your life
Trust me
What the heck do you do? How hard is that to answer?
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You have a funny way of showing it
Tell me all about you.
No I don’t want to be in your life.
Creepy.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not all about you - just what you do for a living
Don’t be afraid we won’t hurt you
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Who is this we?
The voices in your head?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 1:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He has a need to be thought of as smart
So maybe his job is menial or demeaning in some way
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 1:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You need more evidence?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
John R = MDsr
in a post yesterday he stated he was glad he gave Steve his secondary email a couple of years ago, when a citizen posted Andy and MDsr email addresses.
You exposed yourself John…
by sqrebck on Nov 20, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL - like people are going to
waste their time emailing him – he wanted to be protected
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is this the gang up on John R thread?
You were wrong about tonight’s outcome, John R. Take that!
The kids aren't alright.
by OhMeOhMy on Nov 20, 2009 10:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Irrelevant
I don’t understand the purpose of the question.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
by mikey p on Nov 20, 2009 4:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Please no Rasual Butler or his Big Hommie in this game and we may have a chance.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
by HVYDRT007 on Nov 20, 2009 9:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
RASUAL
Time to come out, buddy… I know you have a few timely 3’s somewhere in you. HVYDRT007 has been right about you so far.
by SilverClip on Nov 20, 2009 10:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe time for an about-face.
I can’t speak for others, but I believed we could’ve beaten a CP3-less Hornets team, and the Memphis Funk. Which of course we didn’t.
Now that I’m fully expecting a massacre, maybe the Clippers will actually win tonight.
The only thing I envy about Laker fans is they have no reason to resort to such mind games… Ah denial, it’s like a best friend now.
by Gordon for President on Nov 20, 2009 11:12 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Lakers fans never worry...
Even 1 minute left down by 8, it’s always like “we got this”
Clipper fan: 1 minute left, UP by 8…nail biting.
by Newtybar on Nov 20, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just like the old days
We’ve seen it all before. There are all sorts of problems with the Clips right now, but we know exactly how to put together a miserable season, and the recipe is coming together very nicely already. We’ll see if they can pull out of it and put together a run when Gordon and Griffin come back. Maybe yes, maybe no.
But this is a classic turn right here, that others will remember well. There’s a very good chance that the Clips will play one of their best games of the season tonight. They’re backing up to the wall and coming back home and they know they have to put out a great effort. The Nugs know that the Clips are pushovers right now, so they’re not especially fired up, except perhaps with some residual playoff animosity from a few years ago. This should be an easy game for the Nugs. So between Clipper desperation and Nugget complaisance, the Clips might stay in it and make it interesting.
And they’ll still lose.
Losing to teams that they’re better than, and then playing well but losing against teams that are better than they are: that’s how it’s done.
by citizen zhiv on Nov 20, 2009 11:13 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Trade Camby
We need to trade camby while he is of some value. He is an over-rated defender… he sags too much of his man and that’s why our opponents’ bigs kill us.
by shay on Nov 20, 2009 11:32 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Give him to us!
I know some of our fans wouldn’t mind having Camby back in Denver. I have absolutely no idea how we’d make that happen (and at first glance it seems nearly impossible) though.
by Agaliarept on Nov 20, 2009 11:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Look we'll do you a special deal
Give us Carmelo and you can have everyone apart from Gordon and Griffin. We will fill our roster out with min contracts and be better than we are today!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nuggets fan here! :]
I wouldn’t count out the Clippers just yet. We Nuggets have a history of ‘playing down to our opponent’ (no offense), and it’s no different this year. We can blow out the Lakers one game, smash the Jazz, take Portland to the wire and win IN Portland, blow out a half dozen other teams, and yet lose to the Bucks and (essentially) the Bulls. So we’ll have to see what happens. But I plan on watching the entire game, blowout or otherwise.
by Agaliarept on Nov 20, 2009 11:45 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for trying to shake us out of our Dunleavy lead brainwashing
but really. You turn up tonight and the 1 in the W column is yours for the taking.
Come back in 2 months and it might be different (especially if we have a new coach!)
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 12:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ill be wearing my custom made FIRE DUNLEAVY shirt at the game tonight, im having it made now, im in section 101 row 8 look for me! lets give dunleavy hell tonight!
by cliprboy on Nov 20, 2009 12:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
looks like i'm going to help my buddy out and go tonight since he already bought the ticket package and cant find/kidnap someone to go with him...
if we only lose by 12-15 i’ll take it as a moral victory and a “good” loss
by whyamiaclippersfan on Nov 20, 2009 12:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The state of this board accurately reflects the state of the team
Before the season started most of the long debates were fairly spirited but enjoyable. I mean, all we really had to talk about was how awesome Gordon and Griffin looked in the summer and how great the chemistry was. Our only real “arguments” focused on fairly insignificant things like whether we should bring in Iverson or Sessions (and of course we did neither, further reinforcing the irrelevance of the topic).
Now it’s thread after thread of John R and Jax engaging in their annual pissing contest, with other citizens (myself included) tagging in and out at random intervals. Awesome.
Clippers basketball – Where knees go to blow up, success isn’t judged by wins and losses and John R and Jax relive the same arguments over and over again…and the rest of us watch.
by madglove on Nov 20, 2009 1:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
We're just here to "entertain" you
Seriously, can we just win a f’n game?
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 1:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's actually quite painful.
I know you guys dislike each other, but honestly WE ALL LOSE in your pissing matches. No offense, but both of you come off looking like petulant children measuring your peckers, and the rest of us either get sucked into it, looking equally stupid, or have to sift through post after post of your back and forth.
Both of you bring a lot to this community and I’ve obviously gotten into it with you guys at different times, but don’t you guys get sick of it after all these years? How many more years of John telling you that you’re dishonest and you thanking him for apologizing are there going to be?
I’m DEFINITELY NOT saying people shouldn’t argue or debate. I’m guilty of that as much as anyone here (if not more). But you two take it to another level. Is it that fun?
by madglove on Nov 20, 2009 3:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It will never ever stop
Until one or both of us is banned. My suspicion is that this is his purpose.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Guess I'll have to go back in the archives ...
… to see what madglove is talking about. Anybody know where I can find Jax-JohnR pissing match? Can’t wait to check out those petulant peckers! ;-)
by SilverClip on Nov 20, 2009 4:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Look anywhere
I’m pretty sure his first comment was about me…
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 4:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Might need to bring...
a magnifying glass. They probably drive oversized trucks or some souped up Mustangs as well.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Nov 20, 2009 4:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Ohhh, what good is an time-honored squabble if we can’t share a few laughs at their expense?
by SilverClip on Nov 20, 2009 4:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Alright, I've probably overstepped...
My apologies. I’m not taking sides, and I don’t mean any disrespect. I appreciate some of your arguments about Dunleavy, too. You have to admit, though, that the two of you sometimes go overboard… It even adds to the character of the blog, provided we can then laugh about it.
by SilverClip on Nov 20, 2009 5:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
At the end of the day, we are all Clipper fans right.
We’ve got a built in sense of humour haven’t we!!!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 5:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
MG. Question.
What would YOU do if you were Donald Sterling right now? And I mean in a Clippers way, not go home and lie on a bed of money with beautiful women!!!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 1:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If I were DTS I'd be disgusted at myself
In all seriousness, I’ve made it quite clear that I would have fired Dunleavy long ago. I don’t think he’s a bad coach per se, but I think he’s an average coach, who is a bad fit for the personnel on the team, and who lost this team long ago.
It’s not all his fault, a lot of it is bad luck with the injuries (serious bad luck). But that’s how life goes and I have no reason to think this team will play hard for him when healthy, when the scrubs aren’t even playing hard for him.
Some people are willing to put up with his excuses, but the bottom line to me is that healthy or not, I can’t think of a single time in the last 7 years when his teams have overachieved. They’ve done well one year and were disappointing all the other years. That one year is not enough to make up for everything else (especially when that year ended due to his own bad coaching. ie. Daniel Ewing). Bad things continue to happen on his watch, and eventually you have to realize what the one constant is (besides the owner).
As for keeping him as GM, I’d rather have him just be GM than both, but my preference would be to start over completely (including the owner…whoops unless that’s me in this scenario). Start over completely. He’s not that good of a GM. He’s just better than Elgin.
by madglove on Nov 20, 2009 3:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So who would you install as a coach?
Would you put Lucas in as an interim under the end of the season or make a full time appt now?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yea I'd put in Lucas an interim
And this summer I’d give Tom Thibodeau a look. He has championship experience and his defensive schemes are fantastic. And you can’t just say that has to do with his personnel, because KG is the only player who was widely regarded as a defensive stud before he got them. Guys like Pierce and Ray Allen definitely weren’t known for their defense. Even Nate McMillan commented on how amazed he was to see the change in Ray Allen’s D.
For GM I’d recruit a top assistant from one of the better teams. I don’t know those guys as well so it’s hard for me to say.
But to me I think it’s important to bring in guys who have been a part of winning organizations. Be it Spurs, Celtics, Magic or even Lakers.
by madglove on Nov 20, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't Thibodeau
a guy that the Bulls were looking at when they got rid of Skiles? It may have been another team though.
It would be good to get a coach that can build from the defensive end. If we’ve got any aspirations of going deep in the playoffs over the next few years then that is the way we need to build.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not saying I disagree with your position
but it seems like Dantoni was basically the coach everyone around here wanted.
He is obviously not a defensive coach. Where would you come out on him?
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 4:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I wouldn't want D'Antoni in here
I think we’ve a much better chance of success to succeed by building with a defensive based coach that a running coach. I’m of the group who thinks that far more teams win the NBA with a super tight D rather than teams based on a super high scoring offense.
I’m not really that into recycled coaches that have had numerous chances before but I honestly don’t know enough about different up and coming assistant coaches or college coaches to give any names.
What sort of coach (and any names) would you like Mwhite?
We have a lot of people unhappy with Dunny on here but not too many suggestions for replacements so it’s nice to see what different people think.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 4:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Beats me
Thibodeau is definitely as good of a name as I’ve heard. That’s the right kind of guy I’d go for as he’s certainly not a re-tread. And while he’s on his way over, maybe he still has connections in Houston and can locate a bright assistant to the general manager from the Rockets. I love the Moneyball.
But I’m much more agnostic about CMDsr than most around here anyway.
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 4:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I say let mwhite06 do it
He knows which are his best players.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 4:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that comment aimed at me John?
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 4:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It was aimed at mwhite06
I am quite adept at using the reply button.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
It seemed there was a little sarcasm left over from our previous discussion, that was all.
No need for the reply button sarcasm though eh.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 4:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If I did have a comment for you in this thread
It would be a question. That question would be: Why would you trade a slow it down preach defense coach who has had top 10 defensive teams with three different franchises for an unknown coach in looking for a slow it down coach who preaches defense?
Normally the knock on MDSr is that he needs to loosen it up and let them run. I haven’t heard this one before so I find it novel. Not wrong, just novel.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 5:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My answer to your question is
that the current slow it down preach defense coach has lost the team for a start. The team, in my eyes, aren’t playing for that coach. Also, his previous accolaides are well in the past and he hasn’t had any sustained success (i.e. more than 1 year) in the last 7 years. He is also clueless on offsense.
Granted, it would be nice to see the team run a bit more but I think that is because we are so used to seeing the diabolical, clueless possessions that regularly crop up. However, for any long term, sustained success (for me that would be to reach the playoffs consistently, year after year), I think this team, whilst young and impressionable, needs a strong defensive coach.
Bare in mind that because they are focused on good team defense, it doesn’t mean they have to have a total half court offense and not play to their teams offensive threats at all. Teaching good defensive rotations, hustle doesn’t mean the team can run sometimes in transition with the players they have.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 5:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
doesn’t mean the team CAN’T run
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 5:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He is also clueless on offsense.
The 99-00 Blazers are confused by this claim. But ok I guess.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Nov 20, 2009 5:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also though it seems you are
confused as I put in the post that his previous accolaides were all attained a good number of years ago.
If you’d only done one decent thing in your career and it was 10 years ago and you stuck it on your resume, it wouldn’t look that impressive would it.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 5:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm watching Joe Johnson on league pass
and that is the move I want us to make next summer. He is such a good player and could fit in nicely at SF alongside EJ.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Nov 20, 2009 5:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree
But why would he leave a Hawks team with developing young talent that is one of the best teams in the league this year for one of the historically worst franchises in league history?
This is always the problem I have with people who want to go after a Lebron or even a Joe Johnson. Why in the world would any player leave an average to good team to come to the CLIPPERS? We all see this team in the best light possible because we’re fans…and yet we’re still negative about it. Everyone else sees this team as a complete and utter mess with one of the worst owners in sports.
The only way this team will get superstar talent in the short term is to draft it or trade for it.
by madglove on Nov 20, 2009 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
we can offer 2 things
LA, and playing with gordon and griffin.
by XXDC2XX on Nov 20, 2009 6:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So the debate goes...
…is JJ a 2 or a 3? Portland seems to be doing fine playing 3 guards, so why not us? I’m going home now, but when I get there I’m gonna check out JJ’s rebounding. I bet it’s alright. And with Blake, maybe we need as much from the wings.
My hunch, though, is that JJ wants to stay with Atlanta. I have no real reason to think so, but the Hawks are winning.
by SilverClip on Nov 20, 2009 5:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If I were DTS I would have realized the coach was in over his head and began a
search last year. I’d already have a replacement so I wouldn’t be starting from scratch. I’d fire Dunleavy as coach and GM, lower ticket prices, have some promotions and do my best to breath some life into the team.
Alas, it’s DTS not Cuban.
by eastie Rich on Nov 20, 2009 2:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Heh. So after Sterling replaces both the coach and general manager he is going to lower ticket prices and give away some free stuff.
Free ice cream for everyone!
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 3:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, that's what I would do to fill the stands and create some excitement around the team.
It makes sense from a marketing standpoint and if any team needs some good press it’s this one.
by eastie Rich on Nov 20, 2009 4:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mark Jackson
Mark may be doing the game for ESPN. If he is someone should make it be know that we wouldn’t mind seeing him as the next coach.
Steve – If you’re at the game and you bump into him, could you get his feeling on the subject.?
by Hooch20 on Nov 20, 2009 4:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Is it true Ralph Lawler and Mike Smith are suspended for tonight's game?
If this is true, our embarrassing franchise just became more embarrassing.
I've got nothing.
by bc56274 on Nov 20, 2009 6:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
This is bizarre, they're not even talking about it on TV, but Michael Eaves and Don McLean are in the broadcasting booth.
They’re probably just using this as an excuse to silent Ralph and Mike about talking
about how pathetic our team/coach is.
I've got nothing.
by bc56274 on Nov 20, 2009 7:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Unbelievable
I thought you were being funny. I can’t believe this.
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 7:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wish I was.
Did you read the article? Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
What a ridiculous franchise.
I've got nothing.
by bc56274 on Nov 20, 2009 7:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So am I.
When was the last time Ralph missed a game? He is our Vin Scully, and they treat him like this?!
And how creepy is this production by Fox, by not saying anything? I’m completely in awe of the handling of this.
I've got nothing.
by bc56274 on Nov 20, 2009 7:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps they are really being punished for saying that things need to change
by Jax on Nov 20, 2009 7:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I would think.
I’ll bet you when they come back they won’t be saying anything anti-team anymore.
What an absolute joke.
I've got nothing.
by bc56274 on Nov 20, 2009 7:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure I’ve caught Sieman doing it before though too….
I could be wrong though.
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 7:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What channel are you all going to watch? ESPN? Fox?
"Where would the Clippers be without Sean Rooks?"
by Regulan on Nov 20, 2009 7:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Originally, I acutally though about watching the majority of the telecast on ESPN, because I knew Ralph and Mike would avoid talking Dunleavy, but now, I might actually into Prime Ticket. Eaves and Donny Mac aren’t employees of the Clippers (unlike Ralph and MIke), so they have carte blanche to be a lot more critical than our beloved broadcasters.
by Shawn H on Nov 20, 2009 7:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This may go down as the greatest night in Clipper history...
for better and for worse. For better, because if the Clips get embarassed at home yet again tonight, it could the end of Mike Dunleavy. The worse…obviously Ralph and Mike being forced to sit this game out tonight because of political correctness. The Clippers continue to make headlines for the all wrong reasons.
by Shawn H on Nov 20, 2009 7:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
One thing is for certain, Dunleavy won't be getting fired.
I think they’ve decided to take all the heat off of him and put it on their broadcasters.
This is an outrage.
I've got nothing.
by bc56274 on Nov 20, 2009 7:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re probably right, bc…it’s ridicilous what happened with the guys. I wonder who actually made the decision…the team or Fox Sports?
by Shawn H on Nov 20, 2009 7:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It had to be the team
Fox Sports would have no authority over the situation.
The Clippers employ them.
by Michael White on Nov 20, 2009 7:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The sad part is...
Ralph and Mike get suspended for this, but DTS doesn’t get any punishment from the league for being racist.
"Where would the Clippers be without Sean Rooks?"
by Regulan on Nov 20, 2009 7:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
And I’d say his transgressions were about 100 times worse.
I've got nothing.
by bc56274 on Nov 20, 2009 7:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It'll be interesting to see if Eaves and McLean have anything to say here before the game starts.
Or if they just sweep it under the rug, like the guys don’t even exist.
I've got nothing.
by bc56274 on Nov 20, 2009 7:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
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