Clips Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Around SBN: Has Kentucky Improved Since the Non-Conference Season?

Clippers 91 - Minnesota 87 - Al Thornton to the Rescue

Baron's only basket was a huge one.

More photos » Jeff Lewis - AP

Baron's only basket was a huge one.

 Baron Davis and Al Thornton combined for 33 points tonight, 5 points over their combined season average coming into the game.  Of course, of the 33, Al accounted for 31 of them.  But to Baron's credit, the 2 he contributed were huge, the last points of the game as he sealed LA's 91-87 victory.

Since Eric Gordon has been hurt, the Clippers have been incredibly dependent on Chris Kaman and Baron Davis.  Well, tonight Kaman went 6 for 20, and Davis missed his first nine shots and hadn't scored a point until he hit a driving layup with 8.5 seconds left to ice the game.  So after getting a combined 7 for 30 (23%) from their two big guns, I guess the Clippers should feel pretty good to have gotten any win, even against the 1-13 Timberwolves

Someone had to step into the void left by Kaman and Baron, and it was first and foremost Thornton.  He made 11 of 16 shots, mostly on hard drives to the rim.  He finished with season highs of 31 and 10 in points and rebounds - and 6 of his rebounds were on the offensive end.  Al has never been a particularly good rebounder on either end.  Well, he's still a pretty anemic defensive rebounder, but suddenly he's a terror on the offensive galss.  He's actually leading the team at this point - he has 35 offensive rebounds on the season to 33 for Kaman and 29 for Marcus Camby. 

Al's efforts brought the Clippers back from a 3 point halftime deficit.  He did get some help from the point guard position and the post - just not much from Baron or Kaman.  Fortunately, Sebastian Telfar with 17 points and Marcus Camby with 12 points and 18 rebounds also stepped up.

Star-divide




From what I saw (and I have not yet seen the first half), Kaman was just off.  This wasn't a case of Mr. Flippy rearing his ugly head - he took the shots he's been taking all season, they just didn't go in.  In the second half Kaman was 1 for 8.  But without DeAndre Jordan sitting out with a bad ankle, Chris' poor shooting night didn't keep him off the floor - he played 42 minutes.

As for Baron, Dunleavy went with Telfair for long stretches of the second half - and it was hard to blame him.  For the game, Telfair played 26 minutes and Baron played 24.  If you're noticing that those numbers add up to more than a 48 minute game, you're right - and it's a significant point.

Shortly after Baron committed his fourth turnover, while he was still scoreless and 0 for 7, MDsr replaced him with Bassy about 3 minutes into the second half.  14 game minutes later, MDsr put Baron back out there for the final 7 minutes of the game.  But three minutes later, after Baron had taken and missed two more ill-advised shots, Telfair reentered and the beard sat back down - and the beard was clearly not happy about it.  I thought at the time that it was a strange decision - not to bring Telfair back, as Bassy had definitely played well.  But Rasual Butler was invisible in this one, and Mardy Collins was in the game at the time.  So why not play Baron at the two - sure he was ice cold, but neither Butler not Collins were much better offensively, and I'd bet on Baron to heat up before those other guys.

To his credit, MDsr did exactly that at the next stoppage a couple of minutes later - he replaced Collins with Baron for the final two minutes, playing Bassy and Baron together.  And although Baron was ice cold, he still seemed a likely candidate to take and hit a big shot with the game on the line - more likely than Butler or Collins at any rate.  After some timely three point shooting from Ryan Gomes had trimmed the lead to two, Baron made his only basket of the game - a driving layup off of a Kaman pick and roll. 

So, yes, Minnesota is the worst team in the league by point differential.  And no, the Timberwolves have not won a road game, nor any game since their first one.  So it would have been ugly and embarrassing to lose to them.  But despite sub-par (very sub-par) performances from Kaman and Baron, the Clippers were able to get the win.  It's not a great win by any means - but it's a win.

The team goes on the road to Indianapolis and Detroit now.  Eric Gordon will try hard to get back on the court Wednesday in his Indy hometown.

0 recs  |  Comment 68 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Back to 6-9.

Dunleavy is giving us what he has done for seven years, winning at a 40% clip rate.

Al Thornton…good.
Baron Davis…bad.
Marcus Camby…good.
Baron Davis…really bad.
Sebastian Telfair…good.
Baron Davis…trade him please.

I've got nothing.

by bc56274 on Nov 24, 2009 12:02 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Thornton's High FG %

Does anyone have the breakdown of Al’s inside vs outside shooting in the game?

by bigclipperfan on Nov 24, 2009 12:18 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

ESPN has a shot chart

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=291123012

Seems like AT’s shots are mostly really close to the basket. That’s a good thing.

by penguin35 on Nov 24, 2009 7:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

...a VERY good thing

When moving towards the basket, in the 10 ft. range, Al’s hand is one of the best in the league.

by Takebb909 on Nov 24, 2009 7:48 AM PST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Last year's Boom Fizzle was back

I was 10 rows behind the Clips bench tonight, and wow did we stink. At one point the guy behind me said “How are we only down by 6?” The answer, of course, was that we were playing Minnesota, which is the only team in the Western Conference we could’ve beaten tonight. Anybody else would’ve smoked us by 20.

Gotta give Dumbleavy credit for one thing: After Baron’s ridiculous start to the second half, when he kept insisting on trying to throw bounce passes through the middle of the lane that had no chance of getting through, the coach couldn’t yank him fast enough. As Baron returned to the bench I shouted, “Hey Baron, next time how about giving a damn!” It drew big laughs in my section because he clearly could hear it and he clearly was mailing this game in. I sure hope it turns out he was playing with the flu or something, because if not, I’m sorry to say that this is the first time ‘08-’09 Baron made an appearance this year, and it was not a pretty sight.

by boltsfan21 on Nov 24, 2009 1:12 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

his numbers are the same as last season.

Boom Drizzle never left the building.

by chrisd on Nov 25, 2009 5:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice going

dunleavy made a adjustment and it paid off that is what coaches must to make adjustments ‘;that best fit the team. I’ didn’t post it on here but I wasn’t impressed 100% with the Nugget win because the way we played it out after halftime was like every game heavy time for the starters in the 3rd and start the 4th with the bench. This team does not have a legit sixth man which makes that formula very difficult in close games or even blowouts some times. I missed this game but it looks like the Clippers are going into these games like they lead the conference we need this team hungrey and the fact they treat these games with such low passion until the end is disturbing. We ould have been a above .500 team by now if we go into each game ready we will only get so many chances to stay in the playoff hunt before it’s to late.

by KillaClip on Nov 24, 2009 6:12 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

i think Ryan Hollins'

length bothered Kaman’s shooting to start the game and it just spiraled from then on out!

Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"

by Lawler's Law on Nov 24, 2009 7:22 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

This is what we said since EJ got injured...someone is going to have to step up

Last game it was Sual, this game it was AT.

Kind of funny in hindsight.

by Newtybar on Nov 24, 2009 7:35 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'll take this

It’s a good comeback win.

I think MDsr noticed something with Baron and decided to pull him out. Maybe he kinda foresaw that with Baron playing major minutes down the stretch, the unit on the court will make the team lose (ala 08-09 Clips). So he put Bassy in for more minutes, and then we are within reach. Which led to the win. Nice decision.

Hopefully this move tells Baron that he can’t slack off in games and jack up inefficient shots.

And a very, very nice game by AT. I’m actually more impressed by his offensive boards he got here. It sounds obvious but I think AT has played quite well lately, and that’s a good thing.

by penguin35 on Nov 24, 2009 7:41 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

this game really shows...

…That Al is no slacker. Impressive. This man is fighting his way through. No one had a bad game…except Baron Davis. What was poor about his game actually had nothing to do with his shot selection, it was his horrendeous PASSING selection. Too many times did he try lazy attempts to highly difficult passes, a tortureous combination. It looked like actually started thanksgiving early since, since he wouldn’t be home during that time. Rasual’s game was almost “bad”. He definately looked horrible and non-existant out there….he did go out there, right?

The comment earlier about trading Baron was void of logic and recent evaluation. Baron has been playing great. Assists steals blocks, a few games with 20+ scoring. Trade Ricky is what it should have said.

by Takebb909 on Nov 24, 2009 8:04 AM PST via mobile reply actions   0 recs

Optimism

Here’s one (pretty optimistic way of looking at it.) The Clippers struggled out of the gate, going 0-4 to start the year before getting a win on the fifth game. Of the first four game, we expected them to be tough (2 were on the road, all were against good teams) but were hoping to get at least one of those games (that Phoenix game would have been nice.) Since the 0-4 start, the Clippers are playing above .500 basketball* all the while Blake Griffin has been out and Eric Gordan missed a good chunk of those games. During that time, we’ve found out that Rasual Butler is not very good (his minutes are starting to be limited accordingly) while Thornton is proving he is the likely starter once EJ returns. EJ should be returning next game, which is huge considering all the options at SG are very poor, so this team could still get above .500 before Blake Griffin appears. It could be worse.

*Note: I know there is no good reason to use the team’s record after the first 4 games, I mean those games do count and the Clippers should have won at least one of those. But the poor start hasn’t turned into the spiral many feared.

by Michael White on Nov 24, 2009 8:07 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Classic Clipper rose-colored glasses...

They go well with a lime-colored suit, purple boots, and a bolo tie.

by swamigusto on Nov 24, 2009 8:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m still anticipating them clearing blake griffin for fill contact by this Saturday.

by Takebb909 on Nov 24, 2009 8:55 AM PST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

The Baron-Butler Correlation

BD’s lame game could be explained by any number of reasons, or by none at all. But I’m not too surprised that it happened on the same night that EJ was out and that Butler laid his own egg. If we have no real threat from the outside, then the opponent’s defense will lean inside, and it makes sense that Baron might then have to hoist a few clunkers or force a handful of bad passes. Baron also looked out of it last night… in a different game, perhaps he drives more effectively and breaks the defense down better. But that has to get exhausting, especially over the course of several games. It’s consistent to say that he played lousy and to also say that he doesn’t carry all of the responsibility for it.

So what about Butler? How does he go from playing a terrific game to being a non-entity? The Clippers have managed to work Thornton into the mix with so many slashes to the basket. Can they do something about getting Butler a few more open looks in the opening minutes?

by SilverClip on Nov 24, 2009 8:27 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

From my memory, Butler got open looks and didn’t make them. Even the basket Butler got was an ugly shot where he got a lucky bounce.

But I agree with your point, which is to say that with no true shooter on the floor (and Butler no longer qualifies) then the defense will collapse on Kaman and Baron as soon as they put the ball on the floor. Mardy Collins can’t hit jumpers, RDavis doesn’t play enough and even when he does he’s not knocking them down like he used too, and we’ve already discussed Butler. On the bright side, EJ shoudl be back next game, so this doesn’t figure to be a problem much longer.

by Michael White on Nov 24, 2009 8:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Anticipating the Baron Bashing

Yea, Butler got a couple looks. I’m thinking we should give him even more and force him to shoot through things. Last night, he was soon forgotten, and if AT doesn’t get hot, I’m sure we lose that game. With EJ out, Butler is a big, important part of the mechanism, like it or not.

It’s exasperating and strange that he should so awfully inconsistent. Is he homesick?

by SilverClip on Nov 24, 2009 9:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure about that. For one thing, EJ should be back next game, so there is no compelling need to get Butler his minutes. As for just forcing him shot after shot, I would disagree with that tactic. What we all seemed to ignore when the Clippers traded for Butler is that he’s not a scorer. The dude has averaged 8.4 points per game for his career. Giving him plenty of oppurtunities with the ball seems like the wrong way to go. His game on Fri was nice, but seemingly an outlier.

by Michael White on Nov 24, 2009 9:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Butler wasn't originally brought in to be the starter

he was brought in to shore up the bench.

I’m glad EJ is coming back.

Let’s get that win in Indiana.

by Newtybar on Nov 24, 2009 10:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Butler...

…needs clean looks from the three-point, feet set, shoulders squared. That seems to set up the rest of his game.

by swamigusto on Nov 24, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

True

And Kaman was doing well setting him up the other night against Denver. But it’s not like Butler hasn’t been getting those sorts of shorts in other games. And when he goes cold without EJ around, we all see how the team suffers.

My main point is that Baron can only be expected to do so much if the wings are playing poorly. It’s great that EJ’s coming back, and it nice that AT’s hitting his shots again. Maybe with some of the pressure off, Butler can start contributing more consistently.

by SilverClip on Nov 24, 2009 11:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

It’s probably no accident that Butler’s big game occurred when he was coming off the bench and had a specific defensive challenge. As a starter who is a critical scoring option (as opposed to being a 5th starter with modest scoring responsibility) he’s not going to deliver often enough. He’s not Eric Gordon. He can be a very helpful role player on the Clips, and he should do better as Gordon returns and the pressure comes off of him.

It will be interesting to see how this all works with the “new Al Thornton.”

by citizen zhiv on Nov 24, 2009 12:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Butler needs open shots

to be effective. When there’s chaos and ball movement in our offensive sets, Butler tends to get open looks. We had a much more stagnant offense last night and there weren’t really any open looks generated for Butler.

by ghost_ride on Nov 24, 2009 4:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And to think that about a week or so ago I was very close to labeling rasual as a Cuttino replica…yet he is nothing of the sort(however I still like what he brings), cuttino could work with creating his own shot if he had to, he was an above nba avg ball handler and very solid passer for a sg, all of which are things that Butler is not. But he can be very good, as stated, as the “tilt” player, putting the dagger in as the chaos ensues with the balls movement.

by Takebb909 on Nov 24, 2009 5:49 PM PST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Dunleavy & Baron

I was at the game w/ a good view in 111, and everyone was frustrated w/ BD’s play – he looked and acted like he didn’t care, maybe right after he realized how much quicker Flynn was and that he was no match. I don’t know, but it was a great move by Dunleavy to bench Baron in the 2nd half, that was probably the difference in the game.

At the end, to prove a point maybe, he wanted to win w/ Baron on the bench. Owing to a traveling violation on Collins at a key moment, he pretty much had to bring BD back, and that turned out to be a good move.

Glad it worked out last night, but Baron is a horrible leader for our team. I wonder if he was partying all weekend after the Denver win.

by ghost_ride on Nov 24, 2009 11:46 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Playing down to opponents

Weird malaise in that game, a scary one that we’ve seen before. Thank goodness for the new Al Thornton. “Motor” is a fascinating NBA category, and there are some good contrasts to look at. We know that Griffin has a fantastic motor, and we’re all eager to see it. The impressive thing right now is the way that Thornton has been guided towards a more productive effort. His motor has always been good, but now that he’s getting or staying closer to the basket or driving towards it, his efficiency and productivity is exploding.

I wonder what this run of fine play is doing to his stats and PER, and his notoriously low efficiency. It would be interesting to compare it to Kaman’s statistical explosion, except that Kaman has slowed down over the last few games.

The Clips, led by Baron, were making all of the little mistakes that enable them to lose games, and if the Wolves weren’t genuine bottom dwellers they would have given this one away. BDavis seems especially susceptible to playing down to opponents and getting lackadaisical, which is unfortunate because a big part of his job is to tip the scales in the other direction. Guys like Thornton and Camby were making the effort, but BDavis, and Kaman to a certain degree, just couldn’t get it going.

It would just be so great if Thornton can keep playing within himself like this. He’s not going to go nuts every game, but a big efficiency increase from him would make the Clips a much better team. Adding TNAT (The New Al Thornton) to Kaman 3.0 are big steps to take out of a first 15 games with Gordon missing 6 and Griffin yet to appear.

by citizen zhiv on Nov 24, 2009 12:31 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I wonder what this run of fine play is doing to [Thornton’s] stats and PER

His PER has improved quite a bit over the past 5 games. His PER is all the way up to 13.6 (good for 6th on the team) and his TS% is up to .561. I’ve been comparing Thornton with Butler all season (though I suppose I shouldn’t be) as Butler’s PER and TS% remain dreadful at 9.6 and .501 respectively.

by Michael White on Nov 24, 2009 12:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's great, and sorely needed

The key to AT’s success is him minimizing his outside shots in general, and forced shots in general, and taking it hard to the basket and finishing. He’s so good at that, and now he’s doing what he’s good at.

Butler, it’s safe to say can’t create, or at least we don’t want him to. It’s not a good possession if he’s trying to dribble or make something happen. His job is to shoot open shots, keeping defenses honest, and play steady defense.

by ghost_ride on Nov 24, 2009 1:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

True

At least he did it though when we needed it.

by ghost_ride on Nov 24, 2009 2:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Al Thornton's niche

The rub on AT (from what I saw last year and from what I’ve read in comments since then) has been that ball movement stops with him, as he wants to make his own shot and is not very adept at team offense. It was also said in earlier games this season that he was having trouble adjusting to his new, more team-oriented role. —Even if his new body weight was also an issue, then, his style of game was also a real concern.

In this light, I’m really pleased with the slashing he’s been doing… It seems so natural and obvious that I’m wondering why there was ever an issue in the first place. Am I missing something? Hey Al, this is EASY: move without the ball and look for the pass towards the basket. And take other shots, sure, but that’s not your bread and butter.

And of course, as has been mentioned here, this niche also promotes offensive rebounding. Why was I ever worried?

by SilverClip on Nov 24, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not enough offensive threats on the team last year

caused AT to become a primary scoring option. And in a losing efforts the PER usually looks bad on the guy thats only shooting and not doing much else.

"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle

by Cliptomaniac on Nov 24, 2009 5:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not bad

Especially after his dreadful start.

by citizen zhiv on Nov 24, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

baron davis

baron davis is so far removed from being one of the top points….its his attitude…last year he was clearly out of shape and unprepared to lead…so, he blames dunleavy…they cant communicate, a “failure to communicate”…this year, whats the excuse? its very clear that he needs to go…unfortunately, who wants that crappy contract of his….what hasnt been brought up is, dunleavy signed baron, gave the big extension to kaman(these 2 guys should kiss dunleavy’s butt for the dough)…it took kaman 7 years to figure out that he should shoot the ball without putting it on the floor and baron is beyond hope…he is the worse front line point guard in the league…its not talent, its between his ears thats the problem.

by dellago on Nov 24, 2009 3:03 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I don't agree

I posted this stuff last week, but Baron is currently 6th in PER amongst active starting point guards in the NBA. That’s pretty far from the worst. It’s becoming clear to me that Baron Davis is in the Zach Randolph zone whereby people only point out the bad things and don’t mention any of the good things. Baron had a rough night last night to be sure, but on the year he has performed fairly well.

Baron has a bad night so its easy to fall into the pre-programmed discussion about Baron. He sucks, he’s out of shape, he’s expensive, etc. I don’t understand why Marcus Camby is never crucified around here though, other than the fact that everybody already believes he’s a gamer, gritty, wily veteran who plays the game the right way. Camby had a brutal game the first time the Clips played the Grizzlies, yet nobody came to this board shouting that he must go. I have been hard on Camby in the past, but I think he’s done a nice job for the Clippers this season, as has Baron.

For some reason people around here love to blast the players who are actually good (Kaman, Baron, Randolph, Maggette) and love to talk up the reserves/marginal NBA players like Collins, Telfair, Jordan and Novak. I don’t get it. Maybe its a money thing, but do we really want to go back to the days when the Clippers were in danger of going under the minimum salary cap? Surely things are better nowadays.

by Michael White on Nov 24, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My problem with Baron ...

…isn’t that he has an occasional bad shooting game. It’s that he has an occasional ‘I don’t give a damn’ game. Last season we had dozens of ‘em — this year, at least one. I can excuse bad shooting — less so, bad shots. Even less, bad passes. Baron appears to be very much on the downhill side of his career, with a guaranteed long, expensive contract, and really doesn’t seem interested in maximizing his gifts. He might learn a thing or two from his older buddy, Steve Nash.

by pipedreams on Nov 24, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

6th in PER

I would argue PER doesn’t equate to 6th best, not by a longshot. Inspired by Stian’s post @ Clipperblog, these are the guys, including but not limited to, that i’d rather have on our team in place of BD.

Nash
Paul
Williams
Parker
Jennings
Billups
Arenas
Rose
Brooks
Harris
Rondo
Evans

by ghost_ride on Nov 24, 2009 4:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I would argue PER doesn’t equate to 6th best, not by a longshot

Okay, then argue it. Why not?

I don’t think PER is perfect either, but I do think it has value, and I was trying to use evidence to refute the somewhat vague position that Baron is “the worse (sic) front line point guard in the league.”

And if you think all those guys are better (or you’d rather have them) it would be nice if you said why. I’m not saying you are wrong, but all you did was write down names. Criticize my use of PER if you like, but at least its an accepted methodology as oppose to just stating guys you think are better, and then not explaining why you think they are better.

by Michael White on Nov 24, 2009 4:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

PER

For players with a low shooting %, PER is a negative number, not a positive. That’s a big knock on PER, specifically in the case of Baron.

Take the list for what you will, or better yet, create your own, why not?

by ghost_ride on Nov 24, 2009 4:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I feel no need to create my own because I’m not the one arguing Baron should be moved.

As I said, you disagreed with my assertion that Baron is an above average PG by criticizing the PER metric. I don’t dispute that PER has deficiencies. But after that, you just said, “I’d rather have these guys” without explaining why. People love to criticize the use of statistics, but let’s be realistic, there is no possible way that you can watch and evaluate all those players on the list. Unless evaluating basketball players is your full time job or something. More likely, you are like me, and you watch the Clippers and you get to see the opposing team point guards a few times during the year when they play the Clippers or when you happen to catch their games on TNT or something.

This brings up a few problems. 1) You watch Baron every night, and you see all of him. All of the good things, and all of the bad things. For some people, they begin to dwell on the bad things (I think we’re starting to see a few people dwelling on the negatives). 2) You see players via sports center. Obvious problem here is that you are viewing it through the lens of ESPN. ESPN might show players making mistakes (like to push an “it’s the Clippers” storyline) but more often they are going to show the really good things players do. Obviously, that is going to skew your opinion, most likely toward an arteficially higher opinion of a given player 3) You have (possibly skewed) impressions of players as you remember them doing something really well or really poorly when they played the Clippers. Great example is Mike Taylor last year. How good do you think Knick fans think Mike Taylor is? We know he’s not, because we watched every game, but that’s the problem you run when you evaluate based on small sample sizes.

Lastly, I would argue your list is borderline meaningless (within the context of this discussion.) This conversation started thanks to the above poster saying “its very clear that he needs to go” with the implication being that it doesn’t matter who plays point guard so long as its not Baron. So really, all that matters is whether you would rather have Sebatstian Telfair or Mardy Collins as the point guard; because you aren’t getting Steve Nash.

by Michael White on Nov 24, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Steve Nash is not walking through that door, fans

Chris Paul is not walking through that door, and Rajon Rondo is not walking through that door.

Sorry, I have nothing to add I just had to do that.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Nov 24, 2009 5:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the real issue

Buyers remorse on BD’s contract v.s. he was the best available free agent on the market, who else would you have gotten?

At least BD helped us get Blake Griffin. If he had played better last year, we’d never have Blake.

by ghost_ride on Nov 24, 2009 5:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good one!

That’s turning lemons into lemonade ; )
Personally I don’t think Baron is doing that bad when you factor everything in. I wonder how many deflections he gets per game? I know its quite a few. And you know how Dunleavy loves it when we get deflections.

"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle

by Cliptomaniac on Nov 24, 2009 5:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Way to take the minority

You make some good points in that, (don’t get too high, don’t get too low, sample sizes), but you could literally go on any message board and spend your whole leaf repeating these things without really causing any change in the world. Anyway, that’s a different argument, but I find it hard to believe that you can’t look at a list, or create your own by writing down your impressions.

Have you ever read “Blinc”? If you watch a lot of basketball, as most of us do there are a lot of things that are pretty clear in a matter of seconds, if not instantly. If you want to prepare a science fair type project before declaring anything then that’s fine, count me out.

by ghost_ride on Nov 24, 2009 5:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I've no problem with making a list

But I’d take a few names off of yours. Personally, I wouldn’t take the rookies over Baron, nor Westbrook (not on your list, I know). I know many will disagree, but the novelty is going to wear off, and Jennings and Evans are going to have their struggles. Baron, meanwhile, is going to remain one of our best players on a team that will grow this year or next into a playoff contender. We need his veteran presence, and as the team improves, his talents will shine all the more.

The Clips have had a hard time attracting top name free agents. I’m relatively happy with Baron, and I’m predicting we’ll grow happier as the season progresses.

by SilverClip on Nov 24, 2009 5:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's never easy

arguing against your guys. Obviously, I’d love Baron to be phenomenal the rest of the season. He has the talent to do it, but he doesn’t appear to be commited to playing to his potential. Last night took the cake, really. Dunleavy had to bench him for lack of effort in a close game that we needed.

by ghost_ride on Nov 24, 2009 11:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I suspect that BD is down because

His physical skills are degrading and he’s playing in a system he hates.

by Jax on Nov 25, 2009 9:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Since I'm one of the guys mwhite probably refers to when he says some

have taken the negative view of BD, I figured I look up the stats on the players mentioned on 82games.com (I’ve never used it before). Some interesting things come up.

Highest net production: Paul, Jennings, Nash, Harris, Rondo, Westbrook, BDavis, Williams, Roy, Brooks, Arenas, Rose, Parker, Billups.

Something called a Simple Rating:
Jennings, Paul, Nash, Harris, Parker, Roy, Wiiliams, BDavis, Westbrook, Rondo, Brooks, Arenas, Rose, Billups.

Win Percentage:
Jennings, Roy, Nash, Brooks, Rondo, Williams, Parker, Billups, BDavis, Westbrook, Paul, Rose, Harris, Arenas.

For sake of not going on too long I didn’t actuall list the numerics. Interesting though, BD is better than I thought (I did acknowledge he was playing much better this year). Also the difference between the net, simple rating and win percentage are pretty interesting.

When I have more time I’ll have to study it a little bit. Whoops, all players are listed by highest rating to lowest rating.

by eastie Rich on Nov 24, 2009 5:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Blink..? by Malcom Gladwell

…The book is right here in my bag. Note the segment of the book were it discuss the “four officers” and Diallo and the officers misjudgments and how those misjudgments, that fall into a gray area, may actually occur because of subtle and complex things that cause the judgments to be inaccurate.

by Takebb909 on Nov 24, 2009 6:11 PM PST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Can't compare Camby and BD

Even if Camby does not play a single minute, his expiring contract has tremendous value. Therefore, anything he produces is just an added bonus. On the other hand, we’re stuck with BD for the next 4 years and $50 mil. You saw how much better we were last night with Bassy running the point.

I also don’t think PER is a great indicator for BD since his on-the-ball defense against opposing PGs is so bad. I am still having nightmares about Beno Udrih 30-point games.

by BtheKUTA on Nov 24, 2009 5:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Has his D been bad this year?

I don’t recall any PG going off on us this year. CP3 had a good game versus us but last I checked the guy is a decent player and Nash was super clutch in the home opener. Two future HOFers, I think his D has been pretty good this year.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Nov 24, 2009 6:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Baron was hurt...

Not to make excuses because he definitely hasn’t been what we all hoped, but Baron actually hurt BOTH of his big toes in the first quarter last night. How’d it happen? I couldn’t tell you specifically, but that’s what happened. This info is from Andy Roser today when being questioned on his performance (among other things). For anybody that’s played ball, when you know you can’t compete physically do to an injury, even if it’s not major, it most definitely has a psychological effect on you and your outward appearance to those watching. Baron wants to be the man, there’s no question. He cares tremendously….he just doesn’t have the body to do it anymore which sucks for us, and sucks for him too. Nobody will take his contract, so we need to hope he can still pull of the occasional great game and be steady in the others.

by KingMe32 on Nov 24, 2009 4:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I believe it

He definitely looked out of it, and it definitely wasn’t for lack of desire. People accusing him of casually taking last night off are simply wrong, I’m very sure.

Baron’s body is not quite what it used to be, but really we don’t need it to be. He hasn’t lost THAT much. He may need to choose his battles more selectively, but hey, lately he’s had to take on nearly ALL battles, given the state of our wings. With EJ back now, Baron has the opportunity to set a more sustainable pace.

by SilverClip on Nov 24, 2009 5:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that those are aggravating

But I also agree with mwhite06 that as Clip fans we’re prone to exaggerate the negative stuff. Baron also makes some very sharp entry passes… I’m going to look up his assists/TO ratio later when I have a few minutes. I suspect that it’s alright, and that it will improve as the team improves.

I’m repeating myself, but if there’s no outside threat, then it’s hard to create. We shouldn’t hold Baron responsible for every playmaking mistake.

by SilverClip on Nov 24, 2009 6:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hopefully

BD was just partying all weekend after the Denver win and wasn’t ready to play Monday night.

by ghost_ride on Nov 24, 2009 11:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If has another one or two like Monday...

then I’ll concede. He was awful for a game, very much worse than any other game he’s played this year. I haven’t heard anything else about his sore toes, but to me that seems like a plausible explanation. Or fatigue from having to take up the slack from EJ’s injury. Or just having one of those nights. That Baron would just take the night off (or party too hard) I find highly implausible, and of course it’s also unsubstantiated.

by SilverClip on Nov 25, 2009 11:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ugly ugly game

Al Jefferson was called for traveling 5 times, Mardy missed a couple of easy layups, AT had a good game but he actually missed two dunks and Baron couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn. A win is a win and we needed this one badly but aside from AT’s energy level, Bassy’s good game and the obvious W there wasn’t too much else positive to cover about this one. We have Indiana, Detroit and Memphis coming up again… 3 teams with losing records so…. I won’t say it since that seems like the kiss of death for the Clips but keep your fingers crossed.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Nov 24, 2009 3:06 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Butler is not the cure.

As of now Al is outplaying him, and I would rather have Al start. I don’t see what you guys saw in Butler earlier this year.

Stuck in limbo.

by PaperClip on Nov 24, 2009 7:15 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Me neither,

All Butler had going for him was his ball movement. Both Butler and AT were terrible to start the season but at least Butler didn’t stop the offense. Now Al has gotten his s**t together and Butler is still dragging this team down with his terrible play except for 2-3 good shooting games.

by dulciusEXasperis on Nov 24, 2009 9:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Clips Nation!
Start posting about the Clippers »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Warriors_game4_0268_kr_small
Clippers VS Utah Jazz
Small
kaman is an all-star! yay!
Camby2_small
Kaman chosen to replace Brand Roy in All-Star Game.
Small
You need a Superstar in the NBA
Small
and this is why I'm against a midseason coaching change...
Small
The Price of Freedom
Buzzerbeater_small
Yikes!-LAC vs SAS
Small
Isaih Thomas on a short list of coaches?
Small
Isiah Thomas GM/COACH?????
Small
Anyone but van Gundy..let's go Sammy!

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS


Managers

Clipsnation_small Steve Perrin