When Was the Last Time the Clippers....
by Steve Perrin on Nov 29, 2009 8:08 PM PST
in News
72 comments
...had a huge come-from-behind victory? We've seen the Clippers lose big leads plenty of times. Last season against Cleveland and this season against Toronto come immediately to mind. We've seen the Clippers finish games on the wrong end of scoreless runs as well. As for wins, we've had some nice ones, even in these last couple of lost seasons - the home win against Boston last year, the Denver win this year.
But when was the last time the Clippers came from behind late in the game, erased a big deficit and closed the game on a double digit scoring run as they did today against Memphis?
The last such game I remember was back in April 2006 during the playoff run against the team's erstwhile punching bag the Nuggets. Trailing by 20 at intermission, the Clippers came out of the locker room at half time a different team and won the game by two. But a 22 point swing pales in comparison to a 22-0 run in the final 5 something.
Can anyone think of other come from behind wins that would rival this one?
Watching the highlights, I can see that the crowd was sky high during the comeback. Entire season's can turn on games like this one.
By the way, if you're looking for positive signs on the season how about this. It goes without saying that Eric Gordon and his 29 points were huge in this game. With Gordon in the lineup this season, the Clippers are 5 and 5 and they've won 4 straight with him in the starting lineup.
As it happens, Houston comes to town next, and the Rockets are currently a game and a half ahead of the Clippers in the West. A win on Wednesday would put the Clippers right back in the playoff picture, with Blake Griffin's rookie debut on the near horizon.
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EJ as a starter equals....
a winning season. I have so much confidence in this kid. To think he is only 20 years old. I get gitty when I think about his age. He has superstar written all over him. He can shoot, get to the rim, defend, and now he is getting more involved in the passing game. His game today was outstanding. 29 points on10-18 shooting and 8-8 free throws. Add the 5 rebounds and 5 asists, and that is one heck of a game for a 20 year old. I am glad to say, I am his biggest fan :-)
GO CLIPPERS!
Then shouldn’t you be NBAFAN10?
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Nov 30, 2009 10:31 AM PST up reply actions
Great game to be at
The Staples center was rocking despite being half full and fans suffering through 3 miserable quarters. There is nothing more fun to witness than a great comeback victory. I was most impressed by Baron and his tenacious defense that was really the spark to this victory. He had Tinsley so tentative and the Grizzlies just bogged down. Hopefully the results from this effort will carry over. Also how great was the pass Camby threw to Thorton after his offensive rebound.
by thewhiteshadow on Nov 29, 2009 8:26 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Camby on EJ
MC gave Gordon huge props both on the TV interview after the game and in the comments on the ESPN story from the game. After the game he said something like, “let me say first of all that it’s great to have Eric Gordon back.” And then in the ESPN story he went further and said that EJ is going to be one of the very best players in the league, mentioning guys like Lebron and Wade.
Gordon finally made a couple of outside shots tonight. He missed some 25+ footers, and doesn’t quite have his long range shot going yet. But it was easy to see how effective he is going to the basket, both in the halfcourt set and of course on the break. He was doing well and putting up 20 point games before he strained the groin, but he didn’t have a breakout game where he was getting extra opportunities and headed towards 30+. We knew after last year that he would have some very big games. His 29 this afternoon wasn’t the big game yet, but it was a nice step in that direction. He was relentless and explosive, and once again he made OJ Mayo disappear. It’s great to have him back.
I suppose it was a bit of a silver lining that Thornton started to find his game in Gordon’s absence. For all of the preseason discussion about Thornton and Butler, and Thornton’s extremely rocky start, Thornton is much more effective at this point, and he and Gordon were a very explosive combo. It was great to see the Clips firing on all cylinders, even if it was just for one quarter, after a lackluster effort in the rest of the game. Have to hope that Gordon just had tightness in the hamstring and didn’t tweak the groin and that he’s back to stay. Everybody has played well at this point—BDavis, Kaman, Camby, Thornton and now Gordon is back.
Houston is a good, disciplined opponent coming up next. If the Clips can play well and get a win, they should have some real momentum.
YES!
Great 4th Quarter from all the starters today. I’ve never seen this team play such great D. I am so glad I didn’t miss the game today. The tmosphere at Staples Center was awesome!
Let’s hope this gives them some much needed momentum for this home stand.
BTW
The last time I saw a great comeback like this was against the Phoenix Suns in our last playoff run. We didn’t win the game but we made one hell of a comeback in the 3rd quarter.
Doesn't count...
If they didn’t win, it doesn’t count.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 29, 2009 10:32 PM PST up reply actions
I was at that April '06 Denver game
It was the first time I ever sat in the lower levels and it was an incredible game! But tonight’s was better simply because the Clippers were so dominating in the fourth. That ‘06 Denver game was won with the Clippers slowly but surely chipping away at the lead, Carmelo being an idiot and throwing the ball into the stands (earning him an ejection) and even then the Nuggets had the last shot with a chance to win or tie and missed. Tonight the Clippers suddenly decided they weren’t going to lose and basically shut down the Grizzlies. Some of it was the Grizzlies missing the same type of shots they made earlier but the Clippers were playing defense like an NBA championship was on the line.
Of course, what sucks about games like this is that you don’t want to see the Clippers in that comeback position in the first place, especially against a team like Memphis. Yes they’re starting to get a groove going and showing how dangerous they can be but they still ain’t exactly the Lakers. I hope the Clippers can take away from this win how important defense is, and that it turns the offense into that running, free flowing style that the team keeps saying they’re built for.
Also, how awesome was it to see John Lucas jumping around (limp and all) in excitement over his guys getting this game? This isn’t a knock against Dunleavy—I know that emotive enthusiasm isn’t necessary to be a good coach (sometimes I think they could replace Phil Jackson with a cardboard cut out and no one would notice). It may not be a HUGE thing but I think its good for the players and the fans to see that enthusiasm, that passion for seeing the team do well.
Camby’s play and his props to Gordon are just a couple of reasons why I hope the Clippers keep him until he retires, no matter how valuable he is in trade talks. He’s had a humble, dedicated-to-the-team attitude ever since he got here, gives his all every night, is a great example to the team and simply a classy, beneficial veteran presence to have around. Of course, everything he said about Eric Gordon is well deserved. I can’t wait until I see Gordon and Griffin on the floor together this season.
Contrast to Denver Game
Unfortunately I didn’t see this one, but yes, the Denver game was different. The halftime deficit was bigger, and it ‘seems’ like (again, didn’t see this one) Denver was even more dominant then than Memphis was today. The Clippers chipped away all second half of that one, while Denver continued to play OK, as opposed to the full blow MEM collapse.
7 fourth quarter points is a record for the Clippers defense, FYI.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 29, 2009 10:29 PM PST up reply actions
And it really was their defense
and not a Grizzley choke job. I don’t know if any team would have scored as much as 15 in the 4th today.
BTW, did you get to SEE this one, Steve? I’ve never seen such a density of block shots. You ought to find a full replay somewhere, if the highlights are all you’ve caught so far.
if you haven't seen it calamisty did a good job
of posting the highlights of the run in the fanshot section
In Gordon we trust
by bestclipfan on Nov 29, 2009 10:59 PM PST up reply actions
It's on the DVR
I haven’t seen it, but I will. Yeah, lots of steals and blocked shots in the play by play. We’ve been on the other side of that of course. It’s when the lead goes from 18 to 10 that you wish you had back. Once the team gets energized, the defense cranks up, and suddenly your offense can’t get anything. It’s the misses earlier in the period the Grizzlies wish they could have back. Amazingly, the Clippers outscored them 33-7 in the period – AND MISSED 7 FREE THROWS! Of course, Thornton put one of those misses back in for two, but still.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 29, 2009 11:22 PM PST up reply actions
There's some kind of witchcraft in the energy of a comeback
There were a dozen or more comments today wondering why the Clippers weren’t playing such defense in the first 3 quarters, but of course, at that point the spell hadn’t yet been cast. Energy is a strange thing. We were stuck in the doldrums against Indiana, as thick as tar, and not even Baron’s fury could do anything about it. I sometimes seriously think that energy/momentum is its own entity, and all you can really do is wait for it swing back around your way.
We missed 7 free throws, yeah, but it didn’t matter. The ceiling could have collapsed and we still would have won.
The most amazing comeback/collapse I’ve ever seen is still that Bills-Oilers playoff game back in the early 90’s. I think it was 35-3 at halftime, but the Bills tapped their genie, and you could feel change in tide the whole 2nd half. Just electric.
Didn’t Baron lead a pretty amazing comeback against the Clips when he was at Charlotte? It was a mid-season game, and I think he was still a rookie, because he didn’t start and only came later… and single handedly erased a 25 point deficit. There wasn’t anything anyone could do.
Today was the best Clip comeback I’ve ever seen. Maybe there’s been another, but if so, I missed it. It feels terrific to be on the better end of it this time.
Nice
Wow—great post SC. Going pretty old school with the Bills-Oilers, and somehow it seems that amazing comebacks happen more often in football than in basketball: maybe it’s something in the basic design of the game.
Leads are fragile in the NBA, as Clipper fans know all too well. There have been some roaring comebacks in the finals. I seem to remember CMDSr being on the losing side of a pretty impressive one.
SP is right about the dip from 18 to 10. That’s when you need to execute and make sure that the opponent doesn’t get any traction. But games turn around, and then, as you say SC, the energy level of a team becomes an uncanny substance. Sometimes it’s just a player: remember Dan Dickau torching the Clips? Or Ricky Davis for that matter? It seems like it’s always some guy on the other team, and eventually that guy plays for the Clippers… and never turns back on the switch ever again.
Once it was down to 10 and BDavis came back in, he just assaulted Tinsley and everybody was up on their guys and flying around like we haven’t seen before. Camby seems to do it fairly routinely, launching that long body on a regular basis, and I find myself paying attention to the camp that is bringing up the idea of resigning him. But it’s great when Kaman goes from being a step slow to being extra quick, as we saw on the block against Thabeet. Gordon’s return is also a big spark, and as we mentioned, Thornton has shown a very high energy level at times. It was awesome to see it all going at once, with great energy and purpose on the defensive end, resulting in blocks and steals and great basket protection, with the ball moving down the floor at lightning speed. The Funk… well, they’re called the Funk for a reason, and they took tha beet down about as low as it can get in this one, with those funky funky 7 points.
by citizen zhiv on Nov 30, 2009 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
How does a guy go from being a step slow
to a step ahead? It’s weird how that happens. Even on guitar, a good night can sometimes, somehow transfer to my fingertips.
It’ll be very interesting to see how the Camby question plays out. I’d say yes, of course, sign him right now with our MLE if he’ll take it. But the steely rational part of my brain says to wait and see how things are working once Griffin is back. I posted on different thread last night that I’m confounded over which two bigs will be our crunch time guys. Frankly, the way things are going, they may end up being Griffin and Camby, with Kaman sitting. That would add a lot of fuel to the Resign Camby campaign. Would you go for it even if we had to give him close to the same sort of $ as he has now?
To put another thought out there: If we are playing legit .500 ball as we approach the trade deadline, I’m confident there’ll be a buzz around the league… Maybe not a loud one, but something significant enough for those approaching free agents to hear. Contrast this with the basketball situations over in the NY area, and I think the chatter may start to snowball. There’d then have to be some big time decisions made in our front office.
I’m confounded over which two bigs will be our crunch time guys. Frankly, the way things are going, they may end up being Griffin and Camby, with Kaman sitting.
Because Griffin has outplayed Kaman to date?
by Michael White on Nov 30, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
Not yet
But it’s forseeable, yes. With AT and Camby playing so well in the 4th and Griffin our prize pick, I can see how Kaman might eventually have to draw the short straw.
Even if I am being a little dramatic here, I find it interesting to speculate… Sort of the way one might anticipate a showdown in a Wild West movie.
You yourself voted for Griffin as a starter, no? I can easily see having Griffin start over Camby and then having Kaman and Camby close. But I don’t know… I’d sure be tempted to let Baron, EJ, AT and Griffin run the floor at the end, with Camby adding defensive presence. See what I mean?
You yourself voted for Griffin as a starter, no?
Yup. But I’ve changed my mind. I’ve been one of the more vocal guys around here about how I don’t really like Camby. But the fact is, he’s playing really well. I’m pleasantly surprised. And there is no way Blake Griffin, the rookie who I’ve never even seen play yet, should be elevated to a starter over Camby. Not with the team winning (which unbelievably the team is doing.)
Another thing, Kaman is still playing pretty well. Didn’t he just score 26 the game before last? Again, it seems like one bad game for BD or Kaman and everyone is ready to kill those guys, even if it is the game directly following an excellent performance.
I’m still firmly against re-signing Camby though. Camby had a really nice December last year too, then he turned into what I fear about Camby : nagging injuries, stupid jumpers which lead to pulling him away from the basket so he can’t rebound.
And putting on my Bill Simmons cap, “hey, anytime you can lock up a 36 year old with a history of injury problems, who’s a tweener and plays the same position as your first round pick, you just have to do it.”
by Michael White on Nov 30, 2009 4:03 PM PST up reply actions
High Class Problem
The thing I keep thinking about, as the team starts to play better, is the difference between Griffin as the first guy coming in off the bench versus Craig Smith. The surprising Sunday win and the string, sort of, of tightrope victories gives us momentum towards consideration of Griffin’s belated debut. It’s going to take some time to evolve. I’m hoping that we get some more advanced injury reports today or tomorrow, confirming that Gordon is okay and not tweaked, and giving us the update on Griffin and something of a timetable for his return. But when he does come back it’ll make sense to bring him off the bench unless there are strong indications otherwise. Having seen him play in summer league and the preseason, and watching the beginning of the year unfold, it seems like it’s going to take 3-5 games for him to get going and show something beyond some nice plays and productivity. But his return is immediately going to have a big impact on the rotation and depth of the Clippers, in a substantial way.
The big thing is that there are things that we know now that we didn’t know then. Kaman has been excellent, although he has tailed off a bit and come back to earth, but he could easily put together a new string of big games at any time. One of the things that has been hurting the Clippers is defensive rebounding. They finally stepped up with a great rebounding game yesterday, but Griffin is going to have a huge effect on Clipper rebounding. Camby is playing great basketball, and you don’t want to reduce his minutes. One thing that we’re seeing is the long-awaited Kaman-Camby pairing, and there have been times when it’s pretty sweet. And let’s add DJordan to the discussion too, as it was nice to see him come back quickly and fairly effectively from turning his ankle—the Clips could have used him in Indiana. The guy who is going to be most affected by the return of Griffin is Craig Smith, who has done a good job.
The other thing we know now is the effectiveness of Thornton. I’m surprised by the way that part of the equation has played out; it’s not what I would have expected. I think Butler is oppressed by the load that was put on him when Gordon went out, and now he has to deal with Thornton dramatically outplaying him. Butler is uptight and wasn’t effective in a bigger role, but he should be just fine with reduced responsibilities. And his minutes will be less than expected too. The fact is that Thornton is playing the right way, and that makes a huge difference, both for him and for the Clipper attack. He knows he has to play around the basket and drive and limit his jumpshots, and that he has to bring hustle and rebounding. As low as Butler’s confidence may be, Thornton’s is that high, and that’s a big benefit for the Clippers. The thing to watch for now is the way that Gordon and Thornton complement each other. With Gordon back, the Clips have a very strong group of five starters, although you might think differently after the way they have been starting games lately. The fact that Thornton has clearly outplayed Butler, and that he’s playing a smarter and better game and not forcing things, is a big dose of clarity and purpose for the team. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger: Gordon’s injury somehow forced Thornton towards a level of play that he might not have reached otherwise, and now that Gordon is back the Clippers are much better for it.
The other thing I wanted to mention is BDavis’ quote that everybody should come back and check out the Clips after they’ve had a chance to play 20 games. We’re almost there. I don’t know whether BD posted that number before the injury to Griffin, but I think so. 18 games in, the Clips have won some games and they’re showing some great signs. There have been some significant developments on the court, but the starters are all going good at this point, and we’ve seen good things at times from a number of bench guys as well. Griffin will come back some time after the 20 game mark, and after that we should see a pretty good, competitive basketball team.
by citizen zhiv on Nov 30, 2009 1:22 PM PST up reply actions
I think these injury might produce a few silver linings
There’s AT, playing time for our backup bigs, and even Mardymania. And also, this has given Griffin some time to sit still and watch the game up close. Who knows the ways in which that might help. My kid brother was 10 years old when he finally learned how to ride a bike… and he was simply ready, such that he took off without ever falling. Griffin may come in and immediately play like a huge talent with a full half-season under his belt. I’m keen to see it happen.
Way too early to talk re-signing Camby
First off, it’s November 30 and the team is a disappointing 8-10. Everyone is beside themselves that the team pulled off that crazy 22-0 run to close the game, but that run doesn’t make up for a disappointing run against the softest part of the Clippers’ schedule. We’ve played the Grizzlies 3 times already and struggled in those games. It only gets harder from here on out.
Second, the Clips need to renounce Camby to maximize their cap space. So when you’re talking about resigning Camby, you’re talking about cutting into a large chunk of that cap space and effectively eliminating the Clips from making a run at any big name free agent. Is Camby worth that when you have Kaman signed long term and Blake waiting in the wings?
We don't even need to talk about it, just wait and see how this season pans out
and get busy during the off season.
Yeah
I tried to mention the possibility of resigning Camby in a gingerly fashion. Whatever that is. The idea would be making a two-year deal at a very nice price, with the thought that Camby has a home with the Clippers as a place where he can finish his career. You’re not paying real money for him. If somebody else wants to pay him and he wants to go to a different team, let him go. It shouldn’t be about money, but everything always is. But if he wants to finish what he started, and he wants to play with BD, Gordon, Kaman, Griffin and AT, I say all power to him. There’s the capspace and free agent problem. I’m not sure about the details, but it seems like he’d be a UFA who could make any deal with any team, just like any other scrub. The Clips would have to see where they’ve landed as a team and what’s available to them. But Camby might turn out to be both an affordable and valuable asset. It would be great to see somebody signing at a below-rate price because they want to play with an exciting and competitive Clipper team for once, wouldn’t it?
by citizen zhiv on Nov 30, 2009 6:17 PM PST up reply actions
Club Optimism
It would be great to see somebody signing at a below-rate price because they want to play with an exciting and competitive Clipper team for once, wouldn’t it?
That my friend is Club Optimism at its finest. I’m going to guess that he’ll be a Spur or a Celtic next season.
Probably so
But I get the sense he really does want to stay and see this through. Everyone has his price, of course.
Can I ask, what are the rules with the MLE? I’m a little shy about not knowing. With a name like “exception,” I’m left thinking that it doesn’t take up cap space. It obviously makes a big difference whether it does or not.
MLE
The exception in MLE refers to being an exception to being over the cap. Thus, a team can offer a player (or players) a contract up to the MLE even though it is over the salary cap. It does indeed take up cap space. Or more accurately, it has a “cap hold.”
So a team trying to clear cap space has to renounce the MLE. You can’t have both cap space and the MLE. So if the MLE is like $6 mil a year, and you can potentially only have $3 mil under the cap, you’d just keep the MLE (effectively eliminating that $3 mil cap space). But if you have potentially $10+ mil under the cap, then you’d renounce the MLE to maximize that cap space.
Considering the Clips can potentially have around $11 mil or so in cap space, they’ll renounce the MLE and Camby’s Bird rights (which also have a cap hold). So for Camby to then resign with the Clips, he’d either have to take whatever is left in cap space after the Clips sign someone (if they sign anyone), or he’d have to sign for the veteran’s minimum.
FYI – you can read up on the CBA by googling “Larry Coon’s FAQ”. He breaks it down as well as anyone and most of us around here got our info from him.
Terrific!
Thank you indeed. :-)
Given what you said, it seems like the Clips could sign someone for slightly under $11 million, and then turn around and use the MLE to sign someone else (perhaps Camby). So they wouldn’t have to renounce anything. But I’m probably missing a detail, like having to declare up front or something. I’ll go read Larry Coon… Thank you again for your help.
Alright, I just read FAQs #19 & 20
and I’m starting to get it. You can either have cap space or exceptions, but you can’t have both. Hmmm. I take it we can renounce our exceptions and sign a free agent for $11 mil (or more and pay the luxury tax), and then have to wait a year to get another MLE. Seems like an incentive to fill up your cap space with contracts, so later you can put your exceptions to real use.
Thanks to madglove
I was in airplanes today and missing out on these conversations… but yeah, re-signing Camby is a non-starter at this time. His contract coming off the books is a huge part of having significant cap space this summer.
And yes, SilverClip, there is a bit of an incentive to stay over the cap so you always have cap space. The fact is, you have to get WAY under the cap for it to be worthwhile. Remember, if you’re talking about re-signing Camby, you don’t even have to worry about the cap, since you can re-sign your own free agents without regard for it. BUT, that means you don’t have cap space to sign a major free agent.
Camby, Craig Smith, Rasual Butler, Steve Novak…. all of them have to be renounced to maximize cap space. Then, if you sign a major player with that space, the only way you get any of them back is at the min – no exceptions (pun intended).
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 30, 2009 10:12 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks to clipnation
for getting me off my ass and finally looking into this salary cap stuff.
Of course, we could always sign a free agent and Camby, and then just pay the luxury tax, right?
Not that Sterling’s likely to do that, but something else he might do (if he was being sincere in his recent interview) is sign LBJ to the max, which with the luxury tax would take us 18 to 20 million over the cap amount. The thing is, with ticket sales, jerseys, etc, the team would recoup that amount in practically no time. So if James were interested, wouldn’t the only thing holding us back be Sterling’s own risk aversion?
He’s said a few times that he’s willing to spend the money if the talent is deserving. This, I believe, would have to qualify as one such case.
Of course, we could always sign a free agent and Camby, and then just pay the luxury tax, right?
No. Though the NBA has a soft cap, it is actually a much harder cap than fans used to the concept in other sports may be more familiar with.
A TLDR version might be that it would be difficult to start out a year well under the cap and then spend enough or acquire enough salary in trade to pay the luxury tax the same season. The very first year you will likely end up just at the salary cap.
The process of getting up to the luxury tax threshold will take a year or two. This would be accomplished by being at or near the cap next year, then using the MLE for a couple years in a row and/or signing Thornton/Gordon/Griffin to a much bigger contract at the end of their rookie deals.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Dig deeper
I was writing this when John R checked in. He knows this stuff better than anyone, but there’s more to the specific problem than he addressed:
You can sign a free agent (from another team) only with the money you have available under the cap. If you don’t renounce any of your own free agents their salaries are still counted under the cap (at 100 to 200 percent of their current salaries depending on their “Bird rights”). So, Camby’s salary (he is a non-Bird vet) is counted at 120% of his current salary… somewhere around 12 million (though HoopWorld reports it at over 16M: http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9180). The point is, even if you renounce all the other guys (Novak, Smith, Butler, Collins) if you keep Camby, you’re probably not going to be under the cap at all. Which would leave you only the MLE to sign a free agent. So, the options are: trade Camby or renounce him (wherein they can only resign him for minimum) and get his salary entirely off the books or sign him early for considerably less than 12M… which will put you somewhere under the cap, but nowhere near the max money you’d need for a Lebron or Wade, which is what you’re probably shooting at.
It’s all in the head-spinning but accurate Coon document (you also have to remember that there’s nothing precise about this; no one knows what the salary cap will be THIS year, nevermind next year.
It doesn't have to be the same team
You have to have not changed teams as a free agent for three years. If you are traded, like Camby was, your Bird rights come with you.
If Camby is traded at the deadline, his new team would have Bird rights with him as well.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Thanks indeed
This is most illuminating. It makes sense (now) that teams can’t offer more than their cap space to free agents— I confess that until now I thought they could. There’s a lot more to this cap stuff than meets the eye.
My next question concerns when the luxury tax actually kicks in. In light of what John R says above, it sounds like any contract above the cap is susceptible to the tax. So if a team is sitting at the cap threshold and then offers a player its MLE, that salary will be taxed (I suspect). The MLE then allows you go above the cap, but at a price. I’m going to read up on this when I get a sec here, but if someone wants to correct me, this has all been very helpful. :-)
Hmm
In the spirit of being illuminating I may have clouded things. There is a span above the salary cap but below the luxury tax. Usually in the range of about 10M-15M. You can be over the salary cap but still below the luxury tax.
The point I was trying to convey was that even though there is a soft cap, in the short term it is a hard cap. I think you got that part now. For the Clippers this means in practice that they have a choice between Camby, Butler et al and a Free Agent.
The luxury tax is a concern for subsequent years. Once you have exceeded the cap, there are ways to spend more. The Clippers will be in tax danger most likely when it is time to extend Thornton. Then with the likely extensions of Gordon and Griffin, things will get interesting and expensive really fast.
All of this is why I have been trying to council to consider this a rebuilding/transition year. Yes there are many veterans on this team, but most of them are temps according to the published plan.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Just to confuse things further...
I referred to Camby as a non-Bird player. I thought there were no Bird rights on a ten year vet. But now I find no evidence to back that up, which explains why Hoopsworld had his cap hold at 16M (as a “full Bird” player… 150% of salary). I now believe that’s probably close to correct. But the result is the same: If they don’t trade Camby, resign him for less, or renounce him (maybe they should excommunicate and damn him as well), then they will be over the cap.
Just thinking about John R's last statement...
About how things will get expensive when the Clips have to re-up Thornton, Gordon, and Griffin… that is a very good argument why the team might want to stay away from the LeBron (by any other name) derby. You’re gonna have to max that guy for five years, which means you’re probably not going to be able to keep Griffin or Gordon… choose your poison.
Something to think about next summer that’s all.
Well
If you get Lebron, the man not the derby, you win. You gladly become a tax paying club, don’t you?
In that case the only decision would be to pay Thornton or not.
Luckily, that’s still a problem for another day.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I see what you mean a short term hard cap
In your first comment, you seem to leave open a remote possibility of going from having cap space to having a luxury tax in one year. But is there really a way? Other details mentioned here suggests that the cap is pretty hard that first year.
As for resigning our young guys, my immediate thought is to not sign anyone this summer, so that we’ll have more room to extend our young guys when the time comes. But that’s probably a bad idea for several reasons, a couple of which I can think of now: The team would be weakened in the short term, plus when we do sign them, our cap space would be filled and there might not be anyone else on the roster worth extending (so besides the MLE, we’d be pretty “boxed out,” I think).
On the other hand, as swamigusto brings up below, signing a big name to a long term seems hazardous. Wouldn’t we suddenly be thinking of at least some of our young guys as temps? I’ve had this thought before.
An inbetween route may be the way to go, but I’m having a little trouble diagramming it. I imagine signing a few guys to low-medium value contracts, either to short or medium terms. I don’t think I’d want them all to expire just as we have to resign the core group…
Interesting stuff.
It would be hard, I just never want to say never
with Stern as Commish.
As for waiting, either Sterling is going to pay or he isn’t. There isn’t another clear window for now for their Clippers to take a shot at spending this money. They have to at least try.
Don’t panic and spend to spend, but you have to at least try.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Everything's making sense, but then
what happened in Brand’s case?Didn’t the Clips renounce him so they could sign BD? But if so, wouldn’t that mean they could only resign Brand to the vet’s minimum? I know that in fact the Clips offered much more. Maybe they didn’t renounce him, but I remember there was some sort of strategic delay related to the cap.
Two issues
1) Generally, when you renounce someone they just become a normal FA. If you have enough money you can just sign them. The Clippers would have had enough money for Brand and BD.
2) … nevermind. Just read this.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I'll read it soon when I get another break.
I’m surprised we still had enough cap space after signing BD. Or can you use those Bird rights and go over the cap? But if so, egad, why did we have to wait to sign BD first?
… maybe I’ll just read your link here.
Hey, great post there!
I’m still left to surmise a couple things. Despite what swamigusto is saying now, my best guess is that the Clips proceeded to renounce Brand, thus opening up cap space for BD. The Clips then signed him (starting at around 10.7 million), thinking that they’d then offer Brand the 15 mil left of their cap space. We all know what happened then.
But why didn’t they just sign Brand first and then BD? (You were talking about this yourself in your post). Was there a time crunch or something? Or was Brand just dragging his feet…
The why not is not a cap question
Its a drama question. No sense in rehashing since it has clearly ended up happily ever after with Brand breaking down nightly in Philly.
That post was written before it all went down as a proof of concept if it was possible that they could sign Davis and retain Brand.
The Clippers only needed to sign Brand as the first move (with or without renouncing him first, it is not necessary) for the other chips to fall. Brand was free to sign with Philly; Bird rights in no way bind you to the team, they just try to provide a competitive advantage to that team. I don’t know if the details are out, but logically it is unlikely the Clippers actually renounced him since not doing so would allow them to offer Brand larger raises. When he signed with Philly and Maggette signed with GSW, the Clippers had all of that space so they gave some of it to Baron and then used the rest in the trade for Camby.
(Short version)
(Filed under: sometimes the fans only understand wins and losses)
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
"It is unlikely the Clippers actually renounced him..."
But wouldn’t they have had to, in order to avoid a larger-than-15-million presumptive cap-fill? (I’m not good with how to technically express this idea… I think you can see what I’m getting at). Part of your point in your post, I thought, was that the Clips had to do something with Brand before they could play the market.
Or maybe I’m getting the sequence of events wrong (I don’t think I am, but maybe). If losing Brand happened first, then yeah, at that point there’s plenty of space for Baron. But that can’t be right! Baron signed, and THEN Brand did his thing. I don’t see how the Clips could have had room for Baron w/o first renouncing Brand.
BTW, thank you big time for this whole dialogue here. You’re a trouper indeed to hang in there through all my inquieries.
I think we did it!
They can also solve the problem by siging him. By executing the contract his hold is no longer a hold but an actual contract.
Signing him for 15 would have had the effect of freeing up about 7. Unintuitive, but true never the less.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Dec 1, 2009 6:25 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
They didn't renounce Brand...
They renounced the free agents, Maggette and Livingston, giving up their bird rights as John R links to above. But, now I’m confused. I thought they could only resign those players for minimums… didn’t they consider making an offer to Maggette AFTER they signed BD and lost Brand?
Found em
1) Renouncing a player doesn’t prevent that player from being signed immediately using cap space.
2) Per Maggette, Maggette gave the Clippers a chance to match the Warriors’ offer
He must have REALLY hated it here…
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Well...
The Warriors overpaid for Maggette, so there’s that.
But, more importantly, I got something wrong. In order to resign a renounced player a team"…must either have enough cap room to fit the salary, or sign the player using the Minimum Salary exception." Which means they can sign Camby after renouncing him for any amount as long as it’s below the cap (and I guess they can’t use the MLE on him either). I’m done now or I will get confused all over again.
Didn’t the Clippers hold the Hornets to seven points in a quarter during 06-07?
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Nov 30, 2009 10:35 AM PST up reply actions
8 and 8 for the 3rd and 4th in 05-06
Arguably more impressive, but probably not as important.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I say definitely more impressive
An NBA record.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
That was amazing...
But the Clippers were only down 4 at halftime of that game. So the 42 to 16 second half just turned it into a laugher as opposed to being a great comeback.
That 05-06 team could play defense.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 30, 2009 10:15 PM PST up reply actions
Wow!
I sat through the first three quarters thinking to myself, "I should have stayed home than to have to listen to the annoying chants from the “green shirters” while my team gets killed by the Grizzlies. Man, that 4th quarter was the best basketball I’ve experienced at Staples Center!! After that win, all my angry thoughts were erased and I too started to think of the wonderful possibilities once Blake gets back. Go Clippers!
"Success only comes before work inside of a dictionary!"
Blake Griffin on the horizon
is there any news on him, has he or when will he start practicing, he seems to be in good spirits at the gm when i see him
I plan to be at practice Tuesday
I’ll try to get an update
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 29, 2009 11:23 PM PST up reply actions
Try to get some news on EJ too
I havent heard anything yet after it seemed like he hurt his hamstring at the end of this game
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the EJ + AT assault
Seems like a run and gun EJ + AT duo on both wings was extremely effective. They are both extremely athletic and seem to be comfortable on the break with each other.
That was really fun to watch
The familiarity is clearly there between those two guys which makes sense since this is their second year playing together (which is a lot for our Clippers.)
by Michael White on Nov 30, 2009 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
Athletic wings...
I think I talked about it a lot before the season started. But Al was terrible early, the EJ got hurt… so literally this is like the first time we’ve see the combo look good.
But OMFSM, did it look good.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 30, 2009 10:17 PM PST up reply actions
AT/EJ combo is the KEY not only are they playing good D but they are the ones pushing the running game.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
AT/EJ/Blake Superior
is our future and it is BRIGHT!
Say what you want about MDSr. He’s been drafting well. One of the keys to success when it comes to building good playoff teams.
Well the Clips would have to actually get to the playoffs to show how good MDsr is at drafting
I believe it will happen, but want to actually see it come to fruition.
Good point...
Though Thornton was an excellent pick at fourteen.
What about that game against the Lakers....
…I think it was in 2007. I remember it because I was watching it in a sports bar and there was a table of about ten people and some of them were actually for THE CLIPPERS! I think the game was on the Lakers home floor. The Lakers were up by 17 in the third quarter and they Clips started to play ferocious defense, like on Sunday. And Cassell was healthy for one of the few times that year. He was posting up on Smush Parker, and absolutely destroyed him! The people at the table were starting to fight about the game because the Laker fans were very upset. It was a great finish as the Clippers came back and won. I think it helped sparked that controversy when Kobe wanted to be traded.
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