Dunleavy's Dual Role Dilemma, The Mardy Mystery
by moKi on Dec 14, 2009 7:41 AM PST
29 comments
An NBA General Manager may sometimes want a certain player to get more time on the court for reasons other than improving the teams chances of winning.
Sometimes GMs want a player to get enough minutes to prove his value, thus validating the GMs decision to acquire him.
In other cases, GMs may want a player to get minutes to showcase his skills or "improve his stock" so that he may be more attractive to potential trade partners.
This type of strategy from a GM may sometimes conflict with the desires of the coach, whose ultimate desire is to win games and keep his job. Thus a coach may resist or fight against a GM who demands that a certain player get significant minutes if that player is hurting his team.
So in the case of the Clippers, if this situation were to arise, who wins? GM Dunleavy or Coach Dunleavy?
Well, I would argue that GM Dunleavy wins every time. Why?
Coach Dunleavy has significantly less pressure to win (than any non dual role coach) because he knows the GM version of himself won't fire the Coach no matter how terribly he underperforms. Plus GM Dunleavy completely understands that all the losing isn't the Coach's fault.
So let's say GM Dunleavy says "I know I made the right decision in picking up Rasual. Coach, keep playing him big minutes and he'll find his shot."
Theoretically, Coach Dunleavy should fire back and say "I've reveiwed moKi's analysis of Mardy Collins contributions when given significant minutes early and I'm going with him first off the bench because he gives me the best chance of winning. Rasual has had his chances but his shots are missing at critical times in each game, giving away momentum and sucking the life out of our fans. Sorry GM but I have to do what I can to win now because I don't wanna get fired!"
But as we have seen in games since Mardy had a significant factor in the Denver & Wolves wins (he played 21:13 and 15:15 respectively) Coach then proceeded to play Mardy 4:58, 0:14, 0:00, 0:00, 10:55(Indiana Win), 02:23, & 04:59.
I get why fans aren't crazy about Mardy but if I'm a coach I review the tape and I see how Mardy helps stabilize the team early. I would insert him early in games before opponents break open a 25 point lead. At least I would have given him a shot to keep proving his value by giving him significant minutes to see if it keeps correlating with wins.
So what does Coach Dunleavy have against Mardy?
Or is he coddling Rasual? Is he afraid of bruising Butler's ego? Or is Dunleavy trying to prove himself right, in acquiring him as a 3 point threat?
Milph have been commenting on how Rasual can't buy one, that he's only made 1 bingo in his last 16 tries. You can hear it in their voices that they expect Butler to miss EVERY TIME. Sadly their voices express surprise if he actually makes a shot.
I believe that many other coaches, after reviewing tape on Mardy on Nov 23rd would have tried to keep his minutes and insertions into the game consistent with that one, to see if he could repeatedly have a positive affect on the team and help lead to more victories. Why wouldn't you try to keep going with something that's working?
So what's up with a horrible Rasual continuing to get significantly more important minutes than Mardy?
Is GM Dunleavy behind this? Does Coach Dunleavy have some kind of grudge against Mardy?
For now it remains a mystery that frustrates Clipper fans who believe Mardy deserved the chance to overtake Butler in the rotation weeks ago.
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Maybe the Hornets sent MDsr a Rasual highlight tape before they traded
Nice post – rec’d.
I don’t see how Rasual can contribute – he’s not helping lately. If you want someone to stretch the offense along with EJ, you can put in Novak. Or if you want someone to help facilitate, you put in Mardy. Ricky just isn’t doing much but CMDsr keeps on putting him out there (I’d argue that Ricky might be performing better than Rasual but they’re pretty much equally horrible).
The other problem with Rasual is that he is currently regarded as a 3-point threat from OUR guys. Other teams now probably don’t see him that way and can safely leave him alone to double up on Kaman/EJ/Baron.
I do like what GMMDsr did to the roster during the summer, but CMDsr shouldn’t justify what his GM side did by playing guys who aren’t contributing. I guess that’s the downside when you have two jobs rolled into one.
And then after I post this
He starts contributing immediately.
Make a post about how bad Ricky Davis sucks...
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Dec 15, 2009 4:44 PM PST up reply actions
It sucks!
It’s like Dumbleavy wants to loose! I’m a STH and it’s just frustrating as hell sitting there watching us get killed by the other team when Butler or Ricky Davis are playing, and I keep wondering “why doesn’t the coach play Mardy or Novak? Surely they can’t do any worse.”
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
Seriously!
At this point, as much as some people think Mardy’s offense is horrible, could it be any worse than Rasual and Ricky!????!!!!
No way! And even if his offense sucks at least his defense is as good or better than Rasual and definitely WAY better than Ricky. But most of all I believe his entry passes and hockey assists (getting it to the guy that makes the pass leading to a basket) are way better.
Moki you are doing some very good posts
I also like what Mardy brings to the table. Not spectacular but steady play, good defense, much needed toughness, not afraid to make the hard foul, nice passing, above average IQ, team-first play, that’s a lot of intangibles sitting there on the bench. If this is a bit exaggerated, it’s because of the poor, to say the least, play of the other wings. It seems that Dunleavy has a an inclination to play all this washed up veterans. I just don’t get it.
Very good post!
I think a lot of us have been thinking the same thing, I know I have. Until recently (maybe the last 2 games) Butler has been playing fairly big minutes and produces squat. Out of the 3 (Butler, Ricky and Mardy) Collins gives us the best “value” coming off the bench for either the 2 or 3 spots. Which is rather depressing as he’s not a very good SG/SF to come off the bench but he’s the lesser of 3 evils.
Think we can all agree logic gets thrown out the window when you have the same guy running the GM and coach position. Dunleavy is so focused on coaching he’s pushed aside what any GM would have done long ago; fire the coach. Of course he wont fire himself but he’s now become, what seems like, immortal. Sterling needs to pop some brain supplements and put an end to these shenanigans.
by dulciusEXasperis on Dec 14, 2009 11:45 AM PST reply actions
The coach/gm dynamic
There is definitely some interesting potential to this dynamic.
But I don’t think the evidence consistently bears out that GMMDsr wins. One of the classic things the ‘build the team’ GM would do that the ‘win now’ coach wouldn’t do is play the young guys. Now, Eric Gordon is a win/win for coach and GM, and Blake Griffin will be as well. But what about DeAndre Jordan? Wouldn’t the GM want to play the 21 year old project center, get him more game experience, develop him for seasons to come? CMDsr seems to take over where DJ is concerned.
It’s also worth noting that Butler’s minutes have been steadily declining. Last night’s 13 was a season low, and he’s played 17 or fewer in three of the last five games. So he is moving away from his prize acquisition – the only problem is that he’s not giving those minutes to Mardy, but rather to Ricky Davis.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
Exactly right
I was going to mention a version of the same thing—that moKi’s excellent post needs to factor in Ricky Davis. It’s not just Butler. Somehow RDavis moved ahead of MCollins during the down time. You chart out MCollins minutes since the Denver/Wolves combo, and show the way his minutes dropped off. Part of that is Eric Gordon coming back. But RDavis managed to wedge in there, and he has gotten a couple of beefy runs during this stretch.
The post seems to assume that RDavis is so horrible that he should never, EVER get off the bench before Mardy Collins. It takes the position that it’s obvious that MC should move ahead of Butler in the rotation. This is true. But RDavis is actually a continuing, pesky problem.
Maybe it’s better this way. Let RDavis, working hard in practice, embarass himself against the Spurs and give him the big minutes in the game the Clips were highly likely to lose, especially after such a disastrous start. Now move MC up and sit RD for the more winnable game against Wash. Then we’re back to moKi’s argument: move MC ahead of RButler!
I really like the way that moKi is riding the Mardy Collins horse as a possible remedy for deep and distressing Clipper ailments. Have to hope that it turns out to be one of those things that took too long to figure out, in classic CMDSr fashion, but eventually—say, after 25 games—it becomes obvious and a strong, established part of the Clipper attack.
And I feel that all of the Novakians, myself included, have been very patient as well. At this point it’s just embarassing that CMDSr has no idea how to use Novak effectively and to find opportunities for him. It was bad enough when Gordon was out and the Clips had no shooters for long stretches. Have we seen Chris Kaman miss enough jump shots yet? Have we seen RButler be ineffective on defense and miss enough 3 pointers yet?
I’m in Club Realism when it comes to the Clips’ coaching situation and the pricetag for replacing CMDSr, but sometimes it’s pretty hard to take.
by citizen zhiv on Dec 14, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions
Novak is the new P Davis
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Good point Steve
GM Dunleavy could have the “let’s develop DJ so give him big minutes” point of view, in which case Coach MDsr is clearly not listening to GM MDsr.
BUT on the flip side, did you see the cryptic reply Dunleavy gave when asked about the Camby trade rumours? It aired on the Clippers live segment before the last game and it was far from last year’s reassuring reply – “We are not looking to trade Camby. Of course we listen to all offers, but we are not looking to trade him” or something to that nature.
Last night, he said something like “um, um, well, we don’t comment on trade rumours”.
I’m not trying to read more into it than what he said. I’m not saying Camby’s going to be traded.
My point is GM Dunleavy could be winning out in your point about playing young DJ. Maybe it’s trumped by, “Play the heck out of Camby and raise his stock so we can trade him for a wing”? In which case GM Dunleavy is winning that one too!
He needs to send DeAndre to the development league - he's just rotting on the bench
Right now I wish he’d drafted CDR. But hey, I know nothing, so . . .
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I'm concerned where the team will get points
if Butler/Davis is replaced with Mardy. Butler and Davis have shown pretty much nothing (which is why its too bad Rush is out) but a second unit of Telfair, Collins, Davis/Butler/Novak, Smith and DJ is pretty dreadful. At least we know (or we’ve read) that Butler and Davis can occasionally score some points. I think even Mardy Collins will admit that he’s pretty offensively challenged. And the team can’t score anyway (and the second unit in particular has been awful), so having a shooting guard who can’t shoot at all seems like a problem.
Unless you are arguing that Collins should replace Thornton on the first unit ( I don’t believe you are arguing that.) I guess that would give you more balance, but I’m not really fond of weakening the first unit (which I think that would do) just so you have a stronger second unit.
Perhaps Collins is the lesser of all the evils, but it’s not going to make one bit of difference. The only reason Mardy looks like an attractive wing is because the other reserve wings have been so unbelievably dreadful.
Then why not play Novak more?
I remember last season Novak was pretty good. What’s so different now? He has better offense than either of those other guys (Butler/RDavis/Collins). And I don’t think it’s humanly possible to be any more defensively challenged, considering how we’re getting killed by the other teams counter parts.
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Dec 14, 2009 1:39 PM PST up reply actions
I think it is possible
and I think Novak’s defense is extremely poor. I don’t necessarily have a problem with Novak getting more minutes, but really, what help would Novak be in that second line? Assuming its Telfair, Collins, Novak, Smith and DJ; not one of those guys can create their own shot or drive to the basket. Novak would have a hard time getting a clean look, since most teams (with even a little bit of advanced scouting) realize that Novak’s entire game is catching and shooting. Smith would actually be your best offensive option on that unit and he’s like 5’10 (okay not really, but like Novak he has pretty serious physical limitations.)
The best spot for Novak to succeed is getting him minutes at the 4 with the first unit. You need there to be some competent scorers on the floor with Novak which will allow him to get open looks. That’s my take anyway, but others might have a different opinion on how to best get Novak involved.
by Michael White on Dec 14, 2009 1:46 PM PST up reply actions
A simple "high screen-and-roll" should do the trick.
This is where coaching comes in. This is where plays are drawn up. The Clippers are not at the level of the Lakers where they can do wholesale substitutions of all 5 starters. But we can at least pull out a guy that’s not getting it done, put in Novak, run a play to get him open, and BINGO! It’s worth a try in my opinion.
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Dec 14, 2009 2:37 PM PST up reply actions
Good points
You may well be right about Collins as a problematic fit as the SG with the complete second unit of all 5 guys, but the rotation is a different thing. With Butler as the first guy off the bench, for instance, replacing one of the wings (Gordon/Thornton), he has gobbled up a whole lot of minutes playing with essentially the first unit, not to mention that he was the default starter after Gordon’s injury (when MC still didn’t get much of a chance to play).
With Gordon healthy, he should be playing a whole lot of minutes. BDavis is strong and playing well (especially when his stomach is okay), and he should play big minutes too. Same goes for Kaman (drinking) milk, and Camby too for that matter, although Camby is old and limiting his minutes just a touch is probably a good thing. DJordan needs to get minutes, and to play better. CSmith is an okay backup, but he’s no Blake Griffin, and I’ve seen a lot of mediocre CSmith as well as some very good CSmith already this season. Thornton’s upsurge and good play is another reason why the Clips could find minutes for MC, not just as a part of the mass 2nd unit, but as part of a Gordon-Thornton-MC rotation.
It’s time, and in fact overdue, to give Collins a try and to get him more minutes.
Same thing with Novak, although I would like to see him play with Eric Gordon. We haven’t seen BDavis-Gordon-Thornton-Novak-Kaman. Like I said, we’ve seen a lot of Craig Smith, and we’re going to be seeing Blake Griffin soon too. So I wouldn’t mind seeing BD-Gordon-Novak-BGriffin-Kaman/Camby/DJ.
The high screen and roll with Novak seems to be a simple and easy way to get him shots.
by citizen zhiv on Dec 14, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions
Exactly Zhiv!
Of course a lineup of Bassy, Collins, Rasual / Davis / Smith / DJ would be horrible and I am in no way pushing for that!
You hit it on the head! ROTATE Collins in with at least two other starters and I think he can make a big difference in games. Put him in at garbage time with all second unit guys…of course he’s not going to have an impact and his stat sheet will be bare.
I really like when Mardy relieves Baron of point duties, bringing the ball up when opponents have their half court defense set. I like when we have a choice of going to Baron in the post on one side and Kaman on the other.
Baron has been very good lately and I like the old “Stephen Jackson at the top of the arc with Baron posting up a smaller/skinnier point guard in the paint and Monta Ellis on the three point line waiting to launch or charge to the rim” type of attack.
Replace Stephen Jackson with Mardy, Monta with EJ and I think it works just as well, if not better since we have better bigs than when Baron was doing damage with the Dubs.
So I guess I’m saying I like Mardy out there with at least Baron, EJ and Kaman. You can move Mardy around in the 1 , 2 and 3 spots. I think he deserves at least 15 minutes total (not garbage minutes or after we’re down by 25!)
Yeah
and Yeah and Yeah. And Zhiv, yeah to you too. The whole thing Yeah.
The 2nd unit is unfit to unite crap or unify caca-fooey. Use the subs then, Dun, only to rest the starters, not as a team on their own. They suck on their own.
If Mardy can be used in 12 minutes to give our 1, 2, and 3 each 4 minutes of rest, then by all means. Novak too. Play the players who play best with our best players. Field the best. Our less than best is just the worst.
Mardy Collins..
seems like the type of player Houston would want.
"Where would the Clippers be without Sean Rooks?"
In the WiZ game John Lucas took over coaching most of the 2nd. half and we got the "W"
Just think how dumb DTS would feel if he Fired MDsr. and Lucas took over and won a championship.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
I'm pretty sure Sterling would be thrilled.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Dec 15, 2009 4:56 PM PST up reply actions
Excuse me if this has been stated before but why doesn’t Dunleavy have only one job (GM) and then turn over the coaching reins to Lucas?
See my tag
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I like it but according to MDsr. I am to ignorant to understand (in not so many words that is).
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
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