Collins Should Start Over Thornton
What do you think about the idea of starting Marty Collins instead of Al Thornton. I think that with Collins on the floor, there is less isolation and better ball movement. Collins is also a better one on one defender than Thornton and a better passer. Thornton could come of the bench and lead along with Ricky Davis. Thornton could still have a significant amount of minutes but he's just not starting. You know how the Lakers start Walton but Lamar still got more minutes than him despite coming off the bench (this was before Bynum got injured), I think our team will benefit from this strategy as well. Just like what Phil jackson said, "It doesn't matter who you start, what matters is who finishes". Well, I don't really know the exact quote but it's something in this area. Your thoughts?
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So you want to bring your one-dimensional wing scorer off the bench in favor of an offensively-limited but hard nosed defensive player and ball distributor?
That’s…insane.
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
Well
Walton was favored to start because of his passing abilities even though Radmanovic is clearly the better offensive player. Al could still get a lot of playing time but he would just coming of the bench. Also like what Maggette is doing in GSW.
Thornton could help improve our lackluster bench scoring.
So our starters would be BD, EJ, Collins, Randolph, and Camby. 3 Scorers, 2 Defenders or 2 OFF 2 DEF , and 1 combo in EJ.
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
by cliptakular on Feb 26, 2009 10:54 AM PST up reply actions
Thornton would still get more playing time than Collins but he’d just come off the bench.
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
by cliptakular on Feb 26, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions
Now now
Let’s not take old battles out on young, impressionable Cliptakular.
Pretty ironic situation, however. Another day in Clipperdom.
I guess the way to start is: how does Mardy Collins compare to Quentin Ross? and how does Al Thornton compare to Corey Maggette? That might be step one.
The next step is to look at the rosters for opening day 06-07 vs. March 09. Is Maggette more important to Kaman 1.0/Brand/Mobley/Cassell than Thornton is to Camby/Randolph/Gordon/BD?
Stuff like that. Best scenario is that Collins is able to put a little pressure on Thornton to make him better than a “one-dimensional wing scorer.”
And of course it’s worth noting that Maggette seems to be thriving and happy, more or less, coming off the bench in GSW.
The good old days.
by citizen zhiv on Feb 26, 2009 11:12 AM PST up reply actions
I think we've been down this road before...
no?
maggs vs. Qross?
"Duck, Crab. Crab, Duck"
Roger Sterling - Mad Men
by Lawler's Law on Feb 26, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
Yes and MDSr's experiment there failed
That experiment was the beginning of what is soon to be the end for MDSr and the Clippers.
The only difference is that Ross could actually make the occasional 17 footer
Not sure with Mardy. I don’t think I have ever seen a guy airball so many layups and floaters.
This is obviously a good idea. AT would have been abused by Pierce last night.
F-Elton!
More to it
Mardy has surprised us and has been a much better ballhandler and distributor than QRoss ever was. He seems to have some moves and hesitation that gets him into the paint and to the rim. And it works out a fair amount. It might be that he knows he a poor shooter, so he knows he has to go to the basket.
The weak part of QRoss might have been that he seemed to have a decent jump shot—-as you say, it seemed like he was capable of making the occasional 17 footer. Only, as it turned out, he was never able to make it except on very special occasions. It was somewhat baffling. He seemed like a fairly solid finisher, but his own path to the rim was always more of a flash, very quick and direct.
Collins seems to have a signficantly better “handle,” and it marks a big difference in their games.
Some of it seems evolutionary. Collins was a throw-in, thought to be a good athlete and perhaps a defender, but one of the worst offensive players in the league. We should remember that he was shockingly aggressive in his early games as a Clipper, getting up 10+ shots in multiple games, as if he wanted to rebrand himself and try to generate some confidence. The results were mixed.
But then he was forced into point guard duty. And he did very well, although it’s not like he was playing with a bunch of starters. The absence of both Davis1 and Davis2, shooting very poorly, helped his stats, as Eric Gordon and Steve Novak shot at a much higher percentage (not sure about that, but it sounds right). Playing PG and handling the ball so much seemed to improve his game quite a bit—he really stepped up.
It was out of necessity, but it might have been the thing that separates him from QRoss. I’m not at all sure that Ross would have fared as well in a similar situation.
Ball-handling is a tricky skill to qualify, like court awareness, but it’s critical.
by citizen zhiv on Feb 26, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions
mardy > ross
mardy was a point guard at temple basically. averaged 4 assists his senior year and as i recall was drafted as a pg (by larry brown I think basically even though they fired him after the draft).
Temple ispretty big on defense (eddie jones, aaron mckie etc) and he averated like 2steals per game in college. I remember duringhte 2006 draft all the talk that collins was known for defense and was a big pg. he’s definitely a larry brown type (which basically makes him a mike dunleavy sr. type).
Isiah Thomas drafted Collins
Zeke was terrible at trades but he actually drafted pretty well.
He drafted Nate Robinson, David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Damon Stoudemire, Tracy McGrady. All of whom greatly outperformed their draft position.
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities. -Christian Nestell Bovee
by ClipperChuck on Feb 27, 2009 2:52 AM PST up reply actions
yeah...
what i meant was that isiah drafted him to fit larry brown’s style. i’m sure larry had some input on the decision.
and yeah isiah is a good draft guy. he picked ariza in the 2nd round too and he’s been fairly good (though from what he did at ucla you wouldn’t have expected him to have been even drafted, and at the time many didnt)
maybe we should hire isiah just to do our scouting and drafts. no more yaroslav korolevs! (isiah never drafts random euros from grainy vhs tapes)
It hurts
Everytime I set my fantasy lineup and put Danny Granger in I feel a rush of two emotions, of sadness and then it turns to anger.
Here’s an excerpt of Chad Ford’s draft grade for us in 2005. The Granger analysis is spot on. Another moment of sadness when he mentions Ewing backing up Livingston and Simmons. I’m going to go cry in the corner.
Round 1: Yaroslav Korolev, SF, Russia (No. 12)
Round 2: Daniel Ewing, PG, Duke (No. 32, from Charlotte)
Analysis: Yaroslav Korolev may turn into a Toni Kukoc type of player in three or four years, but it’s hard to understand why the Clippers, on the verge of being a serious contender for the playoffs, would pass on the immediate help (and upside) that Danny Granger or Antoine Wright would have brought to the team. The problem appears to be that the Clippers made a promise to a player who didn’t quite deserve one.
Ewing was a solid second-round pick who’ll be able to play both guard positions backing up Shaun Livingston and Bobby Simmons.
Grade: C
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities. -Christian Nestell Bovee
by ClipperChuck on Feb 27, 2009 11:19 PM PST up reply actions
Thornton could be a great role player for us...
But he insists on taking as many shots as he can get. Until he learns to pipe down, and take it the basket exclusively, then he’ll hurt us more than help us.
What's insane is
failing to comprehend obvious and proven differences between the two teams. Let’s review.
The other team had one legitimate starting scoring option other than the player MDSr benched. This team has three. MDSr’s experiment failed last time, as we knew it would.
But would it fail now?
Is it a good idea now, Jax? Do you think the Clippers could be a better team with Thornton coming off the bench, and Mardy Collins starting?
There are always so many mitigating factors. Right now, Gordon is out of the lineup for the next game, and we don’t know anything about Thornton’s status.
KA analyzes it pretty well at Clipperblog, but he only reaches the conclusion that neither of them is adequate—which is easy enough to say—and the Clips should use the analysis of their weaknesses as they try to trade a big man for a 5th starter. I don’t completely agree with the argument, without having any kind of sample of what the team looks like with all 3 big men healthy, and Thornton, and now with Collins as a wild card, plus a lottery pick on the way.
by citizen zhiv on Feb 26, 2009 5:33 PM PST up reply actions
Good question
Putting aside the Gordon injury, I don’t know enough about Collins’ game. He sort of reminds me of a Cedric Bozeman. He’s not quick, but he can handle the rock and can get the job done. Preliminarily, I would think it could work assuming Zbo, Baron and EJ are all starting. However, this iso offense drives me insane and throws off the analysis.
I’d rather use a more athletic defensive-minded wing like a Battier or even a Matt Barnes.
Yeah
Some similarity to Ced, but I think Collins is a smidge bigger and he seems to have a better touch around the basket.
I noted on the other thread that the iso offense is a little less maddening when Gordon and Novak hit a few shots, as they failed to do last night. Randolph wasn’t at his most efficient either, but that might have been more about defensive pressure. I would also really like to see this offense, with Gordon and Camby/Randolph, with Kaman featured on the block as well. I’m far from sure that the best version of the roster doesn’t have three bigs on it, especially with the high likelihood that one of them is hurt. Watching when all three are out is no fun, but I hope we’re past that.
Everybody loves Battier—that’s a no-brainer. Every team would want him. But I’m not sure I would give up one of the Clipper bigs for him. Barnes is athletic, but he seems too inconsistent, and he has fallen in love with hoisting shots by playing for D’Antoni and Nelson, and he didn’t do very well at Phoenix under Porter—so he can’t be too defensive minded. Was Bobby Simmons the guy we’re talking about? How about Trevor Ariza?
It ain’t Mardy Collins. He’s good to have on the roster as a big backup PG, and a defender who has better offense than QRoss.
In the Clipperblog analysis he talks about how Gordon, as good as he is, being undersized means that the Clips need to find a bigger wing. When you consider what the Clips might want with their draft pick, It’s all very complex.
by citizen zhiv on Feb 26, 2009 6:24 PM PST up reply actions
I think AT is the long term answer
Those facets of his game will improve. He is starting SF material. His scoring and rebounding are near the top of the league for guys at the 3 spot.
F-Elton!
I think John R was being sarcastic...
I think…sarcasm over the net isn’t generally a good idea. haha
^This
Thornton = Maggette
Collins = Ross
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
Although
Maggette>Thornton
Ross<Collins
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
by cliptakular on Feb 26, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions
Marty Collins vs Luke Walton
If these two guys played horse no one would win!. I hope EJ is not hurt too bad. Any word on his injury today?
i mean
does it really matter whether each one of them starts?
Clipperblog analysis
Kevin breaks down the issue, seems to decide that neither of them is adequate.
i can't read all this stuff
but if you are calling for mardy collins to enter your starting line up – i assure you franchise is in incredibly bad shape.
i haven't watched a clippers game maybe ever
but mardy collins? come on now. does he still think he should shoot? and do the shots still miss the rim? and what was the deal with those 140 point suns games?
" i haven’t watched a clippers game maybe ever"
Yup, then I’m definately interested in what you have to say about the topic at hand.
by Michael White on Feb 27, 2009 11:16 AM PST up reply actions
Dont think its such a horrible idea
since with Thornton starting he becomes a 4th option behind Zach, EJ, and Baron…if he comes off the bench, he’ll actually be able to get more touches comfortably in the flow of the offense rather than feel like he needs to throw up shots to “get his”. Plus although I wasn’t really all too high on Collins at PG, when he is in there with Davis and the pressure of ball-handling is off of him, he compliments Davis and EJ pretty well (think back to the Boston game where he was making touch passes from Baron to open defenders) plus his defense is a little better than Thornton
Look what we did to him
Boom—one substantive conversation and Collins is gone from the lineup and on the injured list. Clipper mojo—catch it!
Correction
Or, that is, he’s headed for the injured list—not sure on his official status. But maybe the Clips should establish an official “plantar fascitis” inactive roster spot. Take Kaman off, put Mardy in.

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