Hollinger on Rookies
It's actually pretty amazing the way that Hollinger does it. He loves being the stats guru, but he uses it to twist completely around, looking only in his one chosen direction. And that direction is always turned away from a half-full Clippers glass. Even when some one is standing right there, like an Eric Gordon, he'll go in the other direction every time.
So Hollinger is noticing what we've all known for awhile, that the early dominance of Derrick Rose and OJ Mayo in the ROY race just doesn't add up at this point in the season, and there are some new candidates who are worthy of careful attention. He mentions Westbrook and Gordon. And if you're looking for more about Gordon and how his production fits in, you can quit there, because Gordon is gone, never mentioned again.
In part this is because Hollinger is a slave to PER. Gordon's PER is on the low side, despite his obvious great skills and value to his team. He doesn't rebound with the necessary frequency, and he's not a PG who piles up easy assists. The styles and roles of Rose, Mayo, and Westbrook are all better designed to generate PER.
But Hollinger wants, for once, to get inside his numbers. So he looks at Mayo and his low FG% and TSP and assists and says that Mark Gasol, who piles up PER with rebounds and a high FG%, but scores relatively few points, is probably the superior player. And he does the same thing with Rose and Brook Lopez. He also critiques Westbrook, who doesn't shoot very well and has FG% issues. Since he's arguing that the big guys should be recognized, he rationalizes their lower numbers based on playing fewer minutes, and wants attention paid to per-40 minute numbers. Maybe I'm getting a bit sloppy in the specifics of the breakdown, but that's the general drift. Big guys play less, score less and take fewer shots, and shoot a high percentage and they get rebounds. So Brook Lopez should by ROY.
Here's the thing. We just saw Brook Lopez play against the Clippers. He's very good. I think what Hollinger is trying to say is that Brook Lopez has exceeded expectations, he has made a very smooth transition to the NBA, where he is going to be a fixture for a long time and he has considerable potential. But is Brook Lopez at the stage where he is putting a significant imprint on multiple games, where he is a major force for his team, with rebounding and scoring numbers that reflect that? The ROY isn't about how much potential a player has, combined with a smooth transition to the league. It's about a player who is a handful for any opponent, right now, in the rookie year. A player who will make a difference for his team, who is consistent, who has some big, even monster games that show scary potential, but who is productive and skilled and thoughtful on the court as a rookie.
When Hollinger is using big man shooting percentages and TSP, he never looks to the obvious guy on the other side of his argument, Eric Gordon. Yes, EJ could raise his PER by rebounding a little bit better and having the playmaking opportunity to dish out a few more assists. But if you give him a break on that, and take a look at his relatively high usage (compared to big men), backcourt shooting percentages, and his TSP, which is a legitimate, extremely good number, and take his scoring and his multiple "big" games into account, he's an obvious counter to not just the Rose and Mayo dip and dilemma, but also the weak Brook Lopez/Mark Gasol argument Hollinger makes.
What did Hollinger say about Gordon going into the season? He has a hard time seeing the value of anybody on the Clippers, as we know.
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Why are we so obsessed about Hollinger...
Let’s just forget the guy.
Hollinger is kind of amazing...
“I’d be hard-pressed to name any season in recent history where the Rookie of the Year wasn’t, at the very least, in the top five [in PER].”
Well, let’s see. I didn’t invent the metric, nor do I have a database that I can query asking for the ranking of 07-08 rookies by PER, but of the top of my effing head….
Luis Scola
Ramon Sessions
Carl Landry
Brandan Wright
Thaddeus Young
Nick Fazekas
I found this that verifies my extemporaneous list. Damn, I’m good. (The B-R PER calculation is not exact, but it’s close. And Knickerblogger.net agrees that all 6 of these guys had a better PER last season than Durant.)
All had better PER’s last season than ROY Kevin Durant as did several others who played even less than Fazekas.
Yeah, that was hard pressing. I had to, you know, look at last season. Phew. I’m exhausted.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
By the way...
I realize that Sessions, Wright and Fazekas played fewer than 500 minutes, which is how Hollinger defines ‘Qualified.’ But it seems an arbitrary distinction, when his argument against Mayo is that minutes don’t matter.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Mar 17, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Who are the ROY?
Like, since 2000? Just wondering. Could be motivated to look it up myself, but don’t know that I will. And btw, Westbrook and Mayo had less-than-inspiring stat nights, although Westbrook led the Thunder to a victory over the Spurs. So there’s that.
by citizen zhiv on Mar 17, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Westbrook led?
4 for 17 and 2 assists? Seems like the won despite him.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Mar 17, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, led
They won. Tony Parker “only” had 28 points. Earl Watson didn’t play. He’s the PG/leader of the team, and they won the game. Of course, an equally good argument could be made for the “in spite of” side of the equation.
4-17 just makes the Gordon FG%/TSP argument more compelling.
by citizen zhiv on Mar 17, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions
And isn't today Thorpe day?
As in, new rankings in the morning, write ups in the afternoon/evening. Is there any way that he might talk about shooting pct and TSP?
It’d be great if KA could spend an afternoon in the rafters with Hollinger and school him, the way he did with Thorpe. They could probably have a good Al Thornton conversation too.
by citizen zhiv on Mar 17, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
KA on thornton
Al would not come out ahead with KA doing the lobbying. Kevin’s not a fan.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Mar 17, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Thorpe is a complete idiot. He still
has Anthony Randolph aretewd as the 22nd best rookie? What game is he watching? Randolphs PER puts him #5. More like it.
by dungeness crabdribble on Mar 18, 2009 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Facts are funny things...
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Mar 17, 2009 11:22 AM PDT reply actions
PER pet-peeve
Hi guys, this is my first post on this site. I’ve been reading the content for a while and really enjoy all of it, it’s become a part of my daily routine. I’ve posted on espn’s message board occasionally for a long time and recognize a few of you from there.
Anyway, to the post. Hollinger’s stat has become a real thorn in my side this season. I’ve never quite understood the infatuation with it. The PER seems to overvalue rebounding and assists (as a few of you have eluded to already). I sent an email to Hollinger about a week ago outlining my problems with his stat hoping that he might be able to explain what I saw as a flaw. Unfortunately, I haven’t gotten a reply yet.
My biggest gripe has been the comparison of Russell Westbrook to our Eric Gordon. Westbrook still carries a higher PER than Gordon despite a couple glaring holes. First, Gordon TS% is nearly 60 while Westbrook is still below 50. Second, Westbrook turns the ball over at an astounding rate. Since February 1st Westbrook has averaged over 4 turnovers a game, while Gordon only throws the ball away twice. These two stats stick out to me most because they seem to be efficiency stats and the PER is the Player Efficiency Rating. Of course, Hollinger would argue that Westbrook averages more assists and rebounds, therefore he must help his team more. A closer look at Westbrook’s rebounding reveals that almost half of his rebounds come from the offensive end, indicating (to me) that he’s rebounding his own missed shots. As for his assists, he’s playing pg for a team that sports Kevin Durant and Jeff Green (shooting a combined 48% and accounting for 43 points nightly) of course he’ll average more assists. Gordon has actually averaged almost 4 assists a game since the New Year. Although his rebounding rate has remained low, it’s not surprising considering how many outside shots he’s taking (and defending).
I guess the point of my ramblings is if you’re gonna call something the Player EFFICIENCY Rating, you better make sure that the most efficient player ranks well.
TS%
True shooting percentage factors in the extra points scored on threes and free throws and factors them in, but also accounts for those free throws as more or less being shots. (I.e. like a shot, the FT burns your teams possession.) Here’s the definition from basketball reference:
True Shooting Percentage; the formula is PTS / (2 * (FGA + 0.44 * FTA)). True shooting percentage is a measure of shooting efficiency that takes into account field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws
The point .44 basically means that everyone 100 free throws is like 44 possessions. Since most trips to the line are for two shots, you might expect that to be 50 possessions, but the lower number accounts for and-one opportunities and technical free throws. That’s obviously not exact for every player but rather a league wide average.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Mar 17, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
"That’s obviously not exact for every player but rather a league wide average."
Does that change every year, as in is there a “true up” after the year ends? An example would be in baseball OPS+ is changed after the year given the changes in park factors.
by Michael White on Mar 17, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I doubt it...
I just took the def from B-R – I don’t remember ever seeing it change. He bases most of his stuff from Basketball on Paper by Dean Oliver, which I’m ashamed to say I have never actually read. But that’s where to go if you want to get deep into this stuff.
John R is the local expert on advanced stats. Anything to add, John R?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Mar 17, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Rather...
I said “I doubt it’ … really should have said "I don’t know.”
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Mar 17, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Welcome eagle ace
It’s a subject near and dear to our hearts here, and one we’ve spent a fair amount of time on. Westbrook is an interesting case – but in general PER tends to favor high usage players, so despite his ridiculously IN-efficient shooting, he ranks highly in the Player EFFICIENCY Rating. Go figure.
As Citizen Zhiv points out, Hollinger uses TS% to argue that Lopez is better than Rose – but ignores Gordon, whose TS% is higher than Lopez’.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Mar 17, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Redemption
Thanks for the welcome ClipperSteve, this is the most knowledgeable group of Clipper fans on the net and it’s a pleasure to join in the fun.
Gordon had another phenomenal game tonight, as you pointed out. What impresses me most about Gordon is his ability to bounce back. After Wednesday night’s disaster, and to start tonight 0 for 5, it was impressive to see a 20 year-old rookie take charge the way he did. Though it wasn’t the first time he’s done it this season (I believe there was a game in Jan. that he started 0 for 8 and still finished the contest over 50 percent for the night), tonight’s start had all the makings of a late-year rookie slump. Dave Denholm mentioned during Clippertalk that he believed Gordon has more upside than any other rookie, and I can’t say that I disagree. One look at his line tonight tells you that he’s a franchise talent, maybe our first true franchise talent. Not to insult the seven years Benedict Brand gave us, but I think that 20 and 10 out of a power forward is one of the more overrated accomplishments in the NBA. I’ll expand on that point some other time.
Stats can be manipulated.
I mean, I definitely don’t have the knowledge about stats like PER that many of you guys have, but I know that you can use pretty much any stat to prove any point. Unless, some player is a beast in every category, their is going to be a weakness. Hollinger likes to think of PER as the final judgement, and this just furthers his Clipper hatred (which I still don’t understand. Why hate the Clippers?!). Anyways, I don’t take much stock in guys at ESPN, like Hollinger. Unfortunately, many people do.
"If a Clippers fan is reading a newspaper in his living room and the ceiling falls on him, he'll just shrug and move to another room." -Bill Simmons
by WestsideBrandon on Mar 17, 2009 3:53 PM PDT reply actions
I understand your point
WRT statistics, but I think the key for me is finding stats that you are comfortable with and you buy into. Plus, statistics are more valuable in ceratin sports than others. For example, I have a great deal of faith in baseball statistics, some faith in basketball, and zero faith in football stats. I like baseball statistics because an individuals contribution can be (more or less) isolated because on each play it essentially boils down to a pitcher versus a hitter. Basketball is a bit trickier because—- well frankly because of this various posts above which point out the flaws in PER. True team sports, like basketball and football are much harder to isolate an individual’s performance as there are too many variables. At this point, I’m still trying to learn about advance basketball statistics, so I can’t pass on my opinion as to which stats are the must trust-worthy, but the criticism WRT PER seem well founded.
by Michael White on Mar 17, 2009 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions
the westbrook love fest is a bit ridiculous.
honestly he is NOT a pg. I watched him at ucla (as a fellow bruin) and watched him a lot. he’s a good player but he’s no point guard and probably never will be.
the guy is averaging 4.3 turnovers a game from february to march. he’s a turnover machine basically considering he’s only averaging barely over 5 assists in that span. hell the guy has had some 8 turnover games this year.
not to mention for a guy who dunks so much, how is he shooting 40% from the field.
the only reason westbrook is putting up numbers is because he has the ball all the time as the pg and the thunder have been basically giving him the green light to do whatever he wants. the turnovers and horrible shooting alone should disqualify him from the rookie of the year race. he might be really good someday but i still think he’s a tweener guard who is just getting a lot of time to play.
As a fellow Bruin
I would disagree. Westbrook is a young very tough freakish athlete who needs to develop an outside shot. He has the skills to play pg. Let’s see if he develops. His team is becoming competitive now in large part because of him.
I frankly don’t care who wins ROY. I like both players. Both deserve the award. The only thing that matters is wins and losses. ROY for EJ is not a consolation prize for a bad team.
Wow guys. Westbrook is so much more all around than Gordon.
by dungeness crabdribble on Mar 18, 2009 6:01 PM PDT reply actions
Umm...
Care to defend that point at all?
by Michael White on Mar 18, 2009 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Gordon would have far more assists
if his teammates are able to get the ball in the basket after he passes the ball to them… And as far as rebounding goes, the offense the team runs don’t really put him in a position to get them—he’s out in the perimeter in case one of the bigs need to pass from under the basket and when playing defense, he is usually out in the perimeter as well…waiting for a quick outlet pass from one of the bigs in case of a rebound.

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