Draft Prospects: last year vs. this year
Cabo Steve asked that I post my next brisk yet thorough screed up on top as a bit of filler, rather than hiding out down in the comments, and I'm happy to oblige despite the fact that the Clips are making it very tough to get excited about them these days.
Eric Gordon is far and away the brightest spot on the Clippers at this point, and over the past week he settled into a routinely high level of competency, getting his 15-20 ppg and maintaining virtually all of his averages. He's managing to do this under some duress, as defenses are keeping very close track of him, he hasn't been immune from forcing things just a tad, and there are stretches when he doesn't get the ball quite as much as one would like. The fact that the small forwards were wiped out (Al Thornton, Mardy Collins, Davis who shall not be named) a while ago is making things tougher as well. Still, just one more big game would have nice, and somehow Gordon being just very good is less than exciting.
I think it's safe to say that we're all extremely happy with last year's draft pick. Gordon has been remarkable and outstanding in all sorts of different ways ever since he started getting significant minutes. His lack of early playing time and the Clippers concurrent dismal start, and their subsequently even more dismal play through the rest of the season has hurt his recognition to a degree. but he has made some pretty good progress in that regard.
But I think it's important to remember that at this time last year we were geeked up about Al Thornton, who had such a strong second half. Gordon has been much more impressive than Thornton, in all sorts of different categories, beginning with consistency. I don't think many of us are worried that Gordon will have the same type of disappointing sophomore season like Thornton did this year. Thornton was a great draft pick at the bottom of the lottery, and he does a pretty good job of playing small forward. But he remains inconsistent, and no one would say that he made a huge leap forward this season. He was semi-okay holding down the starting job after Maggette's departure, but he barely managed to consolidate his gains from the end of last season, and that wasn't really good enough. It's too early to give up on Thornton or to think he can't make some significant improvement, but his ceiling has come down quite a bit.
It all seemed relatively clear at this time last year. The weak spots for the Clips were at point guard and shooting guard. If they had won the lottery, they would have taken Derrick Rose. It was assumed that they didn't need a big man, so that left Mayo, Westbrook, and Gordon, and the Clips were extremely happy with their guy, even happier after signing Baron Davis. After Mayo, Gordon was the pure shooting guard. It was a bit of a risk taking Gordon over the combo guards (after Westbrook) like Augustine and Bayless, but after signing Davis and then seeing the way that Gordon performed at SG, it's obvious that the Clips got the right guy.
But what happens this year? This team is fubar on such a massive scale that right now it seems that Eric Gordon is the one and only guy on the team that makes any sense. The only way to approach understanding the Clippers is by looking at them from the bottom up. The rookie is the rock solid player. DJordan and Mike Taylor are good young players, successful 2nd round picks. Brian Skinner showed in the past week that he has some value. Mardy Collins is a nice surprise, and Fred Jones has even greater utility than Collins. That's 5 decent bench players, with Taylor the only one firmly in the rotation. There's also Steve Novak who can do his job, provide excitement, and should have gotten more minutes much earlier in the season.
That's it. The next guy who makes some sense is Thornton. He's obviously not good enough to make a bad team any better, but he can play his position most nights. He might improve slightly in the offseason, and perhaps he will be able to understand his role better and make some good adjustments knowing that he will be playing alongside Gordon.
Randolph probably comes next, because he's not going anywhere with his contract, although the same thing can easily be said with Baron Davis and Chris Kaman. Camby, the least noxious of the 4, is the one who has actual trade value and an expiring contract. We had hoped that these guys could come back from injuries and play together and give some indication of what the future might look like. Instead, we know even less than we did before. I suppose we knew, though we didn't want to admit it, that they would have a lot of trouble trying to stay healthy. Firm confirmation of this fact doesn't exactly provide a blueprint on how to move forward.
So what do the Clippers do going into the draft this year? Best player available seems a good rule of thumb when everything is so confused. Assuming the Clips don't get the top pick, where Griffin is a no-brainer, do you draft a big, a wing, or a pg?
Rubio is enticing, but he could be gone, and picking the next PG (Jennings?) on a team with Baron Davis signed through 2013 and Mike Taylor, with Collins, Jones, and Gordon as 3rd string options, is a tricky proposition.
Jordan Hill's projected upside is "a better rebounding Chris Wilcox," which doesn't sound especially exciting to Clipper fans. Hasheem Thabeet can block shots, but his rough edges duplicate Deandre Jordan's weaknesses--Jordan should progress to give the Clips what Thabeet might, and you don't need two of those guys. Of the two, Jordan Hill makes more sense, but there's a strong fear that he's going to slip into the Wilcox/Melvin Ely mediocrity level, unworthy of a 3rd pick.
And of course, wouldn't you know, there are no outstanding SF prospects in this draft. The threshold is obviously Al Thornton, and no one in the upper reaches of draft prospects looks to be even close to as good as Thornton--and we just took a brief glance at Thornton's limitations.
That leaves James Harden. Harden is an intriguing player, but he's a natural SG--I didn't think that he would be around for the Clips, and he would be perfect, except for the fact that the Clips got the perfect guy last year. Typical for the Clips--the best player available plays the position of arguably their best player. So you have to wonder if Harden can play undersized SF as well as Gordon plays undersized SG, or similar permutations. And the big question is this: is Harden the anti-Thornton, the savvy left-hander who scores points but makes other players better? Here's hoping.
Good thing no one is worried about GM Mike Dunleavy making the right call.
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Question
If I understand your article correctly, the only player who is a no-brainer is Griffin. In the case that we do not win the draft lottery, do you advocate trading the pick? In trading the pick (one would think) you could move one of the 3 guys you mentioned who are not going anywhere with their contract.
Good question
It’s hard to say if trading the pick is a better solution.
Right now I would pick Harden and hope for the best, but that’s just me.
It seems like there are some issues involved in using the pick to help get rid of one of the bad contracts. What are you going to get back? Do you have to get a guy to replace the player you’re trading? The problem seems to be that as soon as you manage to trade one of these guys, you want to use the pick to begin to fill the hole, but that’s without considering who you might get back.
In terms of tradeability, it probably lines up as Kaman, then BD, then Zbo.
Kaman has 3 years left on his deal. Kaman plus a pick leaves you with Camby’s expiring deal, Zbo, DJordan and Skinner up front, plus Novak. Who knows what you get for Kaman. If you could get somebody who could start ahead of Thornton, you might be in good shape. Camby and Zbo are a decent fit and won some games together, and Jordan can give you something like what you would get from Kaman off the bench.
BD has more years on his deal, but he can still play and you could blame Dunleavy. If he wants to work hard and get in great shape and he has something to prove, BD plus a lottery pick is a nice package. But where would he fit, and what do you get back. You’d need a PG—Taylor seems like a nice backup, but he’s not close to being an opening day starting PG. Baron’s potential value on a different team or with a different coach, versus his actual performance this season, is why it’s such a nightmare that he’s been so bad. It’s hard to find really solid PGs. Baron isn’t one, but he seems like he could be, which is just maddening.
If you could dump Zbo—but where?—you could draft Jordan Hill, start Kaman and Camby, and probably do okay. DJordan should become a decent backup for Kaman, but it didn’t work this year. With Camby’s deal expiring and giving up the pick, you could end up thin—depending on what you might get back.
Time to play with the trade machine, I guess.
by citizen zhiv on Apr 14, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Or trade the pick in a salary dump for the other team
Work from the premise that there is no 2010 plan.
Camby + the pick for a wing? Camby, Davis2 + the pick for Carter? Is NJ still looking to dump salary given the massive uncertainty there in their stadium and financials? It seems like they should be. Then from their end they have Devin Harris and a completely clean slate for the 2010 derby.
That seems like a good, alternate starting place.
Get me BD and 75 and I'm in
A start
New Jersey has Brook Lopez too. Not sure that Carter is the right move for the Clips, but it’s a good place to start.
Camby is easy to trade. The scary part is Kaman-Randolph-Jordan for the next two years. Camby seems like a steadying influence.
With Camby my own preference would be to hold onto him until the last possible second, with the idea that anything could happen. Denver is a good example: they traded Iverson for Billups and changed their DNA. Nene stepped up, but they would be an even more competitive team if Camby was still on their roster.
So why not see if the team is any good, go through the first couple of months of the season, and then make the decision on Camby. But sure, dangle him out there, in case you can get somebody who would be great, in a salary dump.
by citizen zhiv on Apr 14, 2009 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I think kaman has trade value.. He could be useful to Chicago for Captain Kirk or maybe in Miami where JO has still been kind of bad.
You're right on Kaman
I also think that Kaman has some value, but i wouldn’t take back a contract like Hinrich’s, as long as we can’t move Baron as well.
Though, maybe we could swing something like Kaman + Skinner for Brad Miller(expiring) and one of their two first rounders.
Sure, Kaman has had some injury problems, but the Bulls are still in need of some upgrade in the middle and if they can’t land Amare or Bosh(which i doubt, cause i don’t think they have the pieces), Kaman should be next in line.
Also, if we do use the pick to trade one of those contracts, i hope it’s going to be a deal that sends Baron or Z-Bo packing.
As far as Camby goes, i’d only trade him for something that helps us and that’s probably some youth and/or picks along with a short deal. That could be something like those San Antonio rumors(i expect them to heat up again this summer), which would’ve brought George Hill, some fillers and their first round pick to L.A.
BTW: Great article citizen. It’s just crazy when you look at that team and how much things have changed within a year. Last year we were hoping for the playoffs and now, i wouldn’t mind if we’d blow it up and rebuild around Gordon + the Draft pick.
I’m also with you that i’d rather take Harden and see if him and Gordon are able to play together, instead of just trading that pick. Both are solid ballhandlers and we might get lucky(yeah, i knwo, we’re the Clippers….) with them working out as a solid backcourt, or, at least, as two guards of a three guard(with another point guard) rotation.
we could try and trade the pick...
but we’re not special. Everyone knows this draft is one of the weakest, In fact, I would argue that because of that fact, the pick is probably not worth much at all. Where the clips will likely pick (4th or 5th) is a pretty expensive contract for the team to take on…
by cantthinkofagoodname on Apr 14, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Dear Zhiv...
You seem tired. Weary. The length is still there, sort of, but the effervescent optimism is almost completely gone. Even your Novakmania has ebbed… and… died?
It’s dispiriting. This whole season seems to have flattened out your happy bubble.
No gusto, swami
You’re right. It had been a very difficult year for Club Optimism, to say the least. The happy bubble suffered its final indignity when Kaman came back and things just got worse and more confusing.
The latest setback is something I mentioned in the post, how Gordon is playing well enough to be very good, but he didn’t go nuts and put up one or two more great games, which would have made him hard to ignore as Derrick Rose wins the ROY. It should be interesting, still, to see the battle for 1st team all-rookie. In Thorpe’s article today giving Rose the nod over Lopez, he puts Kevin Love at #3 (which doesn’t make a lot of sense) and he has Gordon at #4, well ahead of Westbrook and Mayo at 7 and 8. He seems to have figured out that Westbrook looks great but has some limitations and a much lower shooting percentage. This is odd, after he put Gordon on his second team last week.
Part of it has been taking a break and getting detached, along with the general disarray. Things are pretty bleak.
But don’t worry. Club Optimism will rally before the draft. Too much chaos and out of practice—I knew I was putting a B- level post (at best) up, and didn’t feel good about it.
by citizen zhiv on Apr 14, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Just caught this...
Not a B-level post at all. Well, maybe for Zhiv. But that’s a high standard indeed.
I disagree with the Jordan Hill
projected upside. Of course I could be wrong, but he looks like he has a better post game and can also shoot from outside. He reminds me of David West more than anyone else currently in the league.
I like Hill
What you say is kind of what I was thinking early on, but I’ve been letting myself get talked out of it. His shot looked good, he was active and could rebound, and he has some post moves. He reminded me a little bit of Rasheed Wallace, with good length and a good shot that is improving quickly.
But there’s a mechanical side that I keep hearing about, and the Wilcox and Ely comparisons scare me. Some will remember how good Ely looked as a draft pick, but it didn’t take long to see that he was only going to be marginally effective. Ely is still in the league and doing okay, but you don’t want anything resembling that kind of guy with a #3 pick if you can help it. Not that Hill is going to be Ely. But you want some one who is going to be much better than Wilcox. You want to get it right this time and pick the Stoudamire instead of the Wilcox. That’s the trick.
by citizen zhiv on Apr 14, 2009 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions
+1
for harden outside of the 2nd pick…
by cantthinkofagoodname on Apr 14, 2009 4:33 PM PDT reply actions
Harden was a no show at the tournament.
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
by cliptakular on Apr 14, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions
first time jitters. he didn't shoot the ball well, but he made plays for everyone around him
Dodgers - 2008 NL West Champions
Cardinals - 2008 NFC Champions
I just don't believe Harden will be a good NBA player when he comes out.
His ceiling is like a worse-ball-handling John Salmons. Identical speed and skill set. Nothing special.
WELCOME TO THE ZONE.
John Wall may be eligible
John Wall is regarded at the best high school player in the country. He’s expected to be the 1st overall pick in 2010, but may be eligible this year. This draft may have just gotten 1 big player deeper.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=DraftWatch-090414
Trade Camby to OKC for a 1st Round Pick
The Thunder have 3 picks and 13 million in a cap room. They want to make the playoffs next year, if they add Camby to their starting lineup of Thabo, Westbrook, Green and Durant that is a very lonnnnggg lineup. I think Jay Bilas might pass out from the unbelieveable length.
If we dont get Griffin (cries in corner) then we should look to drafting Rubio and then trading Baron and say Kaman to the Rockets for Tmac (or perhaps Miami for Jermaine O’Neal). At least we now have a young exciting core of Rubio, EJ, Thornton, Taylor and Jordan plus our 1st rounder. We’d also have cap room again in 2010.
FA in 2010.
Eerie feeling
I have this weird feeling the Thunder are going to end up with the 1st pick. That team will be so sick if they have a quartet of Durant, Green, Westbrook and Griffin. I feel really really bad for Seattle now.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 14, 2009 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
And don't forget Livingston
7 games, 20+ minutes a game, 8 ppg. Interesting complement to Westbrook.
by citizen zhiv on Apr 14, 2009 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions
It's a 2 player draft
Griffin and Rubio. Which probably means the Clips will get the third pick.
I couldn’t disagree more on Harden. He makes absolutely no sense for this team. He can only play 1 position, SG, and he’s undersized for that a tad as well. There’s no way he can play the 3 and he’s no PG either. Not to mention that his lackluster performance down the stretch and in the tournament was worrisome.
Outside of the top 2, I think it’s too early to talk draft picks. A lot will change based on pre-draft camps and workouts. I will say though that I’m not a fan of trading the pick. That rarely works out well for teams and on teams as bad as ours, you need to stockpile talent. Stop mortgaging the future to “try” to win now. This team isn’t winning now.
Our best bet is to draft the guy with the most upside and hope he turns out to be a star in 2-3 years. We’re stuck with some of the contracts we have now, but the goal should be getting a guy who can form a quality 1-2 punch with Gordon after all the trash is cleared away from our team.
i dont think you could be any more wrong about harden
i would actually take him in front of rubio to be honest. the kid can do everything, so what if hes not an elite athlete. hes more of a play maker than gordon, a better rebounder, and has one of the smoothest all around games i’ve seen in years. passing on him is going to bite teams in the ass like passing on brandon roy in 06. remember when they were claiming “hes lacks elite athleticism”, well you dont have to be athletic if youre effective, thats all i have to say….
I'm with you, K11
Rubio seems like more of a question mark in many ways than Harden.
I don’t agree, Madglove, that Harden can only play SG—he might be able to play SF as well. He’s definitely not a PG, but the question I was raising is whether he and Gordon could play together in the backcourt. Gordon guards a lot of the smaller, quick players already, and he shouldn’t play out of position, but he can bring the ball up.
Harden isn’t an undersized PG, especially not next to Gordon, who is a full 2 inches smaller.
The tournament was worrisome, yes, but it shouldn’t be overemphasized. He had a great season.
When you say, MG, that it would be smart to draft the best guy available with the most upside, I think that might be Harden. It’s certainly a problematic and far from perfect fit with Gordon, but they’re very different players.
by citizen zhiv on Apr 14, 2009 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Not JUST upside
It’s about FIT. Harden is just a terrible fit on this team. There’s hardly any debate. In fact, I’m not even worried at all because there isn’t a GM in the league who would go with Harden on a team with Gordon. They’re actually not even as different as you’re making them out to be. Gordon does a lot of things Harden does. He just does other things even better. And there’s no way Gordon is a “full 2 inches smaller.” Harden is LISTED at 6-5. Gordon is listed at 6-4. We’ll see after the pre-draft camp if Harden is even 6-5.
The fact that Gordon guards quick players and can bring the ball up doesn’t matter. You simply can’t have a successful team with two SGs in the backcourt unless Lebron James is your SF. It’s completely ignoring the importance of a playmaker on the floor. Neither Gordon, nor Harden are nearly good enough at creating for others to handle full time PG duties. Plus, that’s not how you make the most of their abilities. You’re just wasting talent by forcing one of those guys to be a primary playmaker. DWade and Kobe can create for others better other SGs. Yet you don’t put them at the point. That just takes an asset and makes it a weakness.
Just saying...
I don’t really want to disagree with you, MG. I just don’t want you to dismiss the idea that Harden might be the most talented player available to the Clippers when they pick, and then try to see if there’s any way that he might be a better fit on the roster than some one like Jordan Hill.
So I’d like to try to be clear. No one is asking Harden to play PG. No one is thinking that he should start, as a rookie, at SF. The idea would be that he would be in a rotation of 3 wings with Gordon and Thornton, and that there might be additional time when he and Gordon could be in the backcourt.
I don’t agree with the idea that you can’t succeed with two SGs. It depends on the skills of those particular guards. Russell Westbrook, for instance, is an SG who is adapting to the PG position (as opposed to Derrick Rose, who is a PG). You could add Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant to your mention of Lebron, since Phil Jackson has rarely had a pure PG—guys like Steve Kerr and Ron Harper and a bunch of others have had great success as the backcourt mate in that offense. We’ve seen enough of Gordon to know that he can do more than enough to be that guy.
I’ll still dispute the 2 inches. I’m not concerned about what Gordon is “listed” at—we have the combine results on him (which I’d have to look up), and we’ll see how Harden tests out. Gordon is definitely undersized at SG, but his athleticism and strength have negated the difference. My impression of Harden is that he has legit SG size, but we’ll see how he tests out.
I thought I would just lay out the positives that Draft Express sets out for Harden, just for discussion sake—and it’s an extremely long list:
Ability to get to the free throw line—offensive polish—craftiness—decision-making—efficiency—excellent skill level—executes offensively—mix between scoring/passing—scoring instincts—shot selection—transition play—versatility—ability to create own shot—aggressive, slashing mentality—change of gears/hesitation moves—ability to get in passing lanes—commitment to playing defense—off-ball defense—assertiveness—coachable—fundamentals—likelihood to reach potential—strong intangibles—unselfishness—winning mentality—work ethic—basketball instincts—high-level productivity—left-handed—young for class—ability to create for others—court vision—passing skills—ability to finish around the basket—balance—body control—coordination—solid frame—defensive rebounding—3-point shooting—ability to catch and shoot.
In short, they love the guy. They say that his best case scenario is Manu Ginobili, and his worst case is Jason Terry. Obviously we’ve seen that Gordon has a lot of the positive attributes that are listed above. And Al Thornton has his own strengths, but I’d ask you to look at this list and think about how it matches up to Thornton (rather than Gordon): is James Harden the anti-Thornton?
And yes,
by citizen zhiv on Apr 15, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
You got cut off
But you made a lot of good points anyway. You’re right, it’s very possible that Harden is the most talented guy available when the Clips draft. And you’re right, it would put the Clips in a very difficult position.
I honestly can’t see how they draft him though. I know you’re not saying they start him at the 3 as a rookie. But you don’t draft in the top 5 based on what’s going to happen the following year. You do it based on how the player fits the big picture. The problem with the Clips has been that there is no big picture (thanks Dumbleavy). But name a successful team that spent back to back lottery picks on the same position.
The comparisons to Lebron, Kobe and MJ just don’t apply. Neither Gordon, nor Harden, are going to be anywhere on that level. So while you can get away with non-traditional players at the point when you have the best player on the planet, clearly that’s not our situation.
Honestly, this team has ONE untradeable player and that’s Gordon. That means there’s only ONE position we don’t need to fill. When you have so many other positions that do need filling, you simply can’t spend a top 5 pick on the one position you have filled.
If the Clips end up 3rd or 4th and Harden is the best player available, they’d better trade out.
Harden...
I agree that Harden has alot of those qualities that you listed from Draft Express, Zhiv. But the one thing that he doesn’t have that sets off alarm bells for me is NBA level athleticism. I just don’t see him being able to create shots for himself at the NBA level. Heck, he was having trouble doing that at the college level in terms of beating defenders to the basket or outjumping other kids in the Pac 10.
I was trying to watch him closely since mid-season when he was being touted as a top ten pick, and from what I see, if he can’t dominate other college kids athletically, then he might have a difficult time adjusting to NBA defenders, who are bigger, faster, and more athletic than Pac 10 kids. He is a very smart, unselfish, basketball player, but one who might be more suited to the college game than an NBA one.
If he could become as great of a shooter like Michael Redd
he wouldn’t be a bad pick.
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
by cliptakular on Apr 20, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions
and why is it he cant play SF?
i’m just curious. is it because hes too short? not fast enough? not big enough? please elaborate madglove….
whatever your excuse is, i dont believe it. mardy collins gave paul pierce fits earlier this year, the same paul pierce that is the reigning finals MVP, and mardy checks in at 6’6", 220. well harden is listed as 6’5", 220. is he undersized, yes, but players can get it done. i specifically remember cat mobley giving fits to one dirk nowitzki in years past, cat checks in at 6’4", dirk at 6’11"….like i said, players can get it done
I don't see it in Harden
His 1st step is terrible, he can’t around players in the same position. He’s can’t post up on other 2 guards. The only time his size would be beneficial is against other PGs, but I’m not quite sure he has handles enough to run a team. There are so many question marks in this years draft. I think you have to go talent over need.
al thornton is supposed to have an elite 1st step....
hes supposed to get by players at will. does he do that? and on a consistent basis? hahaha, no. athleticism is only one aspect of the game folks. if its all that matters gerald green would be a max contract player right now, we all know how thats working out. harden strengths are his high IQ and uncanny feel for the game. he works hard and is not afraid to make the extra pass. he is a TEAM player who does what is asked of him. he does so many things right that i look right past his undersized, unathletic label. outside of picking number 1, i believe he is the best talent available….
Oh please
I’ve seen tons of Harden and Roy and Harden is no Brandon Roy. First of all, Roy didn’t lay big fat eggs in the tournament like Harden did. He was one of the most disappointing players in the tournament.
I didn’t even mention Harden’s athleticism (yet). You’re just taking arguments that others make and trying to apply them to mine. Sorry, no dice. And nothing you said even addresses my comments. Did I say Harden sucks? That he’ll be a bust? No, I said he makes no sense for THIS team b/c of Gordon. Then you went on to say he does things better than Gordon. So? Gordon is already on this team. This isn’t a matter of picking one or the other. The fact is, he’s not a PG and he’s not a SF.
And what does the fact that Cat or Collins can guard some SFs have anything to do with Harden at all? Cat isn’t an SF. He NEVER played SF his whole career. So it doesn’t matter at all that he’s 6-4 or that he did a decent job on Dirk. Harden is nowhere near the defender that Cat was at the end of his career either. Just because ONE guy at 6-4 can guard Dirk doesn’t mean every 6-4 guy can do it. Because MJ was the best player in the world at 6-6 does that mean everyone at 6-6 is? Your reasoning makes no sense at all.
The fact is that at at barely 6-5 (I have my doubts), Harden would need to be ULTRA athletic to be able to be a STARTING caliber SF. Not some bench scrub like Mardy Collins (yet another comparison that was meaningless). Can Harden be a 8th man and play SF? Sure…who cares? You don’t spend a top 5 pick on a guy who can do what Mardy Collins can do.
The 3 is the most athletic and long position in the league. Harden doesn’t have the physical tools to flourish at that position. Forcing him to play the 3 would be doing him a disservice. I sure hope that whomever drafts Harden puts him in the best position to succeed and doesn’t try to pigeon hole him into a bad spot like you’re suggesting.
Look, I understand that you’re a Harden fan. That’s fine. But bottom line, Harden could be a very good SG. But he’ll never be a starting PG or a starting SF in this league. And since we have a starting SG, drafting Harden makes no sense at all.
Agree with the glove
No Madglove no love.
Anyways I think Jordan Hill will be solid, problem is he’ll be stuck on the bench behind Kaman, Zbo and Camby unless we make some trades. We can easily move Camby for a 1st rounder (good return, we only traded a 2nd rounder for him last year) so this could work.
Harden is out, we dont need a SG, we need a PG prospect or an upgrade at SF or C. If we get Griffin, we should see if we can move Kaman and Camby for a couple of OKC 1st rounders.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 15, 2009 1:32 AM PDT up reply actions
If we draft Griffin or Hill,
then Z-Bo is the player to trade. I like DeAndre, but he’s not ready to be the starting center. Aside from Camby, all our veterans’ trade values appear to be at rock bottom. A good coach should be able to improve that. At least that’s what worked for the Knicks. As long as Dunleavy is coach, it really doesn’t matters who is on the team anyway.
ok here we go madglove...
first off i hope you’re comparing brandon roy, the senior out of washington, in your comparisons to harden and not the player he is today, because done over again and brandon roy is the #1 pick in that draft hands down. at the time though, people had their reservations about him(which is why 5 GUYS got picked before him!!) just like they do about harden, which leads me to my point: harden is a superb talent! it doesnt matter if hes undersized, it doesnt matter if hes not an elite athlete, it doesnt matter if we already have a 2 guard for the future, he is a superb talent that CAN and WILL add a lot to this team. in a draft where guys like jordan hill and hasheem thabeet are considered top 5 picks you dont hesitate at the chance to snatch up someone of hardens caliber. can you trade down and take a RISK on someone like earl clark or derozan, two players who have a lot of potential but have shown no guarantee to ever come close to living up to it, sure, but is it a smart move, i HIGHLY doubt that. james harden played at an elite level in college all year, hence his first team all america. yes he missed some shots in the tournament, but to say he laid an egg is uneducated and unfair, he STILL rebounded the basketball and he STILL set up his teammates. he missed some shots thats all, it happens.
as for the cat and mardy comparisons my point was that just because your undersized DOESNT mean you cant get the job done! so what if SF is the most athletic position in the league, it doesnt mean that just because your athletic and long and you have potential youre bound to succeed, ask corey brewer and minnesota how thats going….you think they wished they could have drafted someone else, say like thad young! instead they reached on a guy they thought had all the physical tools to be a great wing player and instead they’re likely to cut ties with the kid after his rookie contract is up….complete waste of a high draft pick, waste of an asset!
my overall point is this: we are looking at a very weak draft class and outside of blake griffin and james harden, who has proved ANYTHING?!! no one, so basically you’re taking a flyer and hoping for the best based on potential, and to that i say there are more people that come into this league and never sniff half their potential than those who actually live up to it. if i’m the clippers and we get somewhere between the 2-4th pick, harden is my number 1 priority because the guy has proved he can play for two straight years! does he play a position already taken by a franchise player, yes, but i’d rather deal with a problem of trying to find a solid player minutes than trying to get an inexperienced player to live up to their potential, there is just waaay more risked involved in the latter…
which was the year
weren’t we getting like 3 picks in the top 14 players in one of these upcoming years? via trades and etc from minnesota? sorry this is just if memory serves me right from all the hundreds of posts here on clipsnation
2010
is when our pick from Minnesota becomes guaranteed. Tell then we only get it if it is above the 10th pick. So we just hope Mini doesn’t do well for 2 more years.
In Gordon we trust
by bestclipfan on Apr 16, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
john wall
whoa how is john wall available for da draft? cuz hes a 5 yr hs? if hes available clippers need to draft him hes a superstar in da making….. GET JOHN WALL!!!!!!
Ideas
The most important question is whether Baron should come back. If he gets back to his old form, then he definitely should be given another chance. Otherwise, it would be good to trade him. I see several possibilities: Baron Davis to Kings for Udrih + Nocioni or Baron Davis to Timberwolves for Craig Smith + Brian Cardinal
Then the next question is who should fill the center spot. Kaman might have trade value, and if we trade him to the Bulls, we could get Hinrich. Kaman could also be traded to Minnesota (for Craig Smith or Ryan Gomes + filler)
Somehow we also need to find a versatile wing to provide relief for Gordon/Thornton.
So the following lineups are possible:
Hinrich — Taylor
Gordon — Collins
Thornton — Novak — Derozan??
Randolph — Craig Smith
Camby — DJ — Skinner
Udrih — Taylor — Rubio/Wall??
Gordon — Collins
Thornton — Nocioni — Novak
Randolph — Craig Smith
Camby — DJ — Skinner
And my favorite idea:
Udrih — Taylor
Vince Carter — Gordon — Collins
Nocioni — Thornton
Randolph — Griffin
Kaman — DJ — Skinner
Imagine Taylor, Gordon, Thornton, Griffin, and DJ developing together!
Not true
Trust me, there are far worst contracts. If the Warriors call tomorrow an offer us Maggs for Baron we still turn that down right?
FA in 2010.
No question
There are worst contracts, but the Clips aren’t taking them on to trade Baron. Thus, Baron won’t be traded.
Star Potential
If the 17.75% comes through, and we can add Blake Griffin, great.
If not, the guys I target from the remaining pack are DeRozan, Rubio & Jennings. Guys with star potential, because that’s what it’s probably gonna take for this team to take off, though I am a little loath to take a PG.
If we were to get the #3 pick, I’d have no problem just taking DeRozan right there as he is being projected to go #6 overall. However, if we drew the #2 pick, I wouldn’t mind trading down for some team that’s willing to overpay for Rubio.
Taking a wing player gives us the best high end potential just because our point guard position is so jammed packed, and our wing is not. Who’s the best wing player? Probably DeRozan. He had a great tournament, and could have the most high end potential of anyone in the draft. To me, it’s worth the risk, especially with our guard & big positions so jam packed.
Next tier would be Jordan Hill, Monroe, Ty Lawson, Clark & Budinger.
Worst possible outcome: We draft Thabeet.
PG is NOT "jam packed"
I’m sorry, I know Clips fans have had almost nothing to be happy about this season so we all want to cling on to whatever we can, but Mike Taylor is not a real PG. The guy is a turnover machine and cannot create at all for anyone but himself. He’s an undersized scoring guard who brings energy and hustle, but will never be anything more than a backup. And at the rate he turns the ball over, it’s questionable that he’ll ever be a quality backup.
Baron is entrenched at the point sure. But you draft a guy like Rubio or even Jennings, who are barely 19, and by the time they’re ready to take over, Baron will be on his way out. It’s an ideal time to draft a really young PG and put him in a situation where he’s not pressured to start right away.
If we draft Thabeet I won’t renew my tickets. That guy has bust written all over him.
agree
i agree NO ON THABEET…. hes 24 yrs old .. just work with jordan… get rid of zbo/kaman PLEAAAAAAAAAAASE…
I'm including Mardy Collins & Mr. Jones
in the PG mix, but I agree with your point, and make no mistake i’d definitely take a PG over a big because that’s the strength of this draft, and PG is obviously a very important position.
It will be interesting to see who we get, but if it’s not Griffin, Rubio, DeRozan, or Jennings i’ll be bummed.
Trade Down?
If we get picks 1 or 2, then IMO we’d be foolish not to draft Griffin or Rubio. Those guys have too much talent to pass up. But after that, the picture is murkier. I’d be happy with Harden provided the Clips did their due diligence, but height is usually valued at a premium. The 3rd or 4th pick might be worth more to another team trying to draft Hill or Thabeet than it’d be worth to the Clips.
Trading down a bit might be our best option. Although it didn’t work out so well with Livi, it’s at least worth finding out what OKC, Memphis, GS or Minny would give to move up. Three of those teams have multiple 1st rounders this year. And dropping down a few spots in the lottery, we’d still end up with a good wing prospect like DeRozan, Clark or even Harden himself.
Just please don’t trade the pick for another half-hearted veteran who doesn’t want to be here, or worse, use it to smooth out a salary dump.
I like it
We definitely need a back-up for Thornton (no thank you Ricky). And there’s just no solid SF’s to be had at the 1-4 spots. If we traded down to the 6-9 we could pick up DeRozan or Clark. Both would be excellent picks for role players and will definitely add to any NBA team.
Griffin or Rubio would be great though! Crossing my fingers.
by dulciusEXasperis on Apr 15, 2009 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Completely agree
Taylor is great for us but he doesn’t create the way we need. That’s why he’s a great second option off the bench. He brings a high level of energy along with some scoring.
I think we gotta go with Rubio at the 2 or 3 spot (if he’s still at the 3). He shows that he’s a distributor first and a scorer second. That’s something this team DESPERATELY needs. After 1 or 2 years into the in the NBA he’ll be ready to take over BD’s spot (maybe even sooner). He’s already played on the big stage (Olympics) and has shown he can keep up with the competition. All while only being 19 years of age.
Harden makes no sense for this team. He definitely can not play the 3 in my opinion. He’s too small and not strong enough to match other SF’s. Maybe in college but not with the big buys. Thabeet may work for the Thunder (all they need is a low post defensive big man) but we already have DJ who’s proving himself, along with Camby Chris and Zach. Maybe 1 of those 3 will be traded but that doesn’t mean we need a guy who has very little upside….not when picking 3.
by dulciusEXasperis on Apr 15, 2009 2:44 PM PDT reply actions
wat about
these are da guys i would be happy if we draft (not in a particular order)
jennings, derozan, tyreke evans, griffin, n maybe rubio…
im torn about rubio/jennings both can be a cp3/williams type which u cant go wrong picking da other….. or they can also be all hype… is john wall able to declare this upcoming draft?
I will just keep thinking
we will get the 1st or 2nd pick
But if that doesn’t happen I think we should definitely trade down if we could get rid of a bad contract for some expiring ones.
In Gordon we trust
I don’t understand why everyone is so in love with rubio. I’m willing to bet that 75% of the people who want the clips to draft him have never seen him play. I think he’s overly hyped, and may be a decent pro, but do the clips really need a pg? They are stuck with baron and mike taylor and gordon can play the point if necessary. I also don’t understand why everyone doesn’t like thabeet. He’s a taller, more athletic version of greg oden, and everyone wanted to draft oden when he came out. Sure, the clips don’t need a center also, unless they manage to hopefully weed out some big men. As for harden, I’m not impressed with him at all. If everyone agrees that tyler hansbrough isn’t going to be a good pro, why doesn’t that argument hold true for harden as well? They are both undersized, unathletic, but great college players. Anyway, hopefully they land griffin or can trade down for a couple of players who are physically and athletically gifted, like derozan or james johnson, or stanley robinson.

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