A Long Summer Looms
Change is needed. That we know. There are no other options. Under no circumstance should this same roster and same coaching staff enter training camp in tact. Something very different has to happen.
The Clippers, as presently constituted, are flawed beyond repair. Contrary to what Coach/GM Mike Dunleavy believes, this team does NOT need more time on the court together. They need NO more time on the court together. We have seen glimpses of what a "healthy" Clippers roster was capable of, and it looked rather unhealthy. Coach Dunleavy, Ralph Lawler, Mike Smith can claim all they want that an 82 game season is needed before an informed decision can be made, but that is just nonsense. No team has a healthy roster for 82 games. I've seen what this team is capable of. I've seen plenty. It's a dysfunctional mess.
This is not necessarily intended to be a discussion of what the Clippers should do (though I certainly have my opinions) nor of what they have done wrong in the past. The point here is to be forward looking and realistic. Since change is clearly needed, what are the possible changes? Let's go down the list:
Players who are guaranteed to be Clippers next year: Eric Gordon and Zach Randolph. Gordon had a very successful rookie season and proved himself to be one of the top young talents in the NBA He showed a nice combination of athleticism, shooting ability and basketball IQ and he played tough d. For a 20 year old he showed outstanding maturity, keeping his head down and his mouth shut as the ship around him sank. He has a bright future ahead. He's not going anywhere.
Nor is Randolph, albeit for entirely different reasons. Zach has 2 years and $33M left on his contract and is a DUI waiting to happen. The New York Knicks chances of unloading him at the beginning of this season were miniscule. Yet they pulled it off. The odds of him being moved again prior to next year are beyond nil. There are simply no takers/suckers. Isaiah's back in college, and unless the Chicago Bulls, still bedeviled by a lack of low post scoring (how many years has this been the case?) decide they don't want to be players in the 2010 free agency bonanza and opt to get a little crazy, Z-Bo goes nowhere. The 2 and the 4 are set.
Players who will be very, very difficult to move and are all but assured to remain Clippers: Baron Davis, Chris Kaman
First is Davis, who signed a 5 year, $65M free agent contract prior to this season and put up the worst numbers and most uninspired performance of his career. From the outset, many "analysts" cautioned that he and Dunleavy were not a good fit. That proved to be the case early on when Baron complained about the rigidly managed offense with the thousand-page playbook (I know, that makes me laugh, too). After they way things went down this season, it is hard to not agree with the early assessment of potential trouble in Clipper paradise. Davis and Dunleavy are like oil and water, and it showed. But was the clash of styles the only reason for the point guard's struggles? If I remember correctly, BD was benched by Coach Don Nelson a few times during the end of the 2007-2008 season for the Warriors, and immediately after, opted out of the $17M he was to earn for the last year of his deal, which is a bit odd. Why did he fall out of favor with Nellie so quickly, just a year after the Dubs shocked the world by knocking the top seeded Mavs out of the playoffs, with Baron being the catalyst of that playoff run, and following a season in which Golden State won 48 games, considering the fact that his style of play and Nellie's style of coaching seem like a perfect fit? Nellie is quirky, and Davis temperamental, but could that really be the reason why things soured so quickly? Or could it be something else? Could it be that Davis had injured himself somewhere along the way and knew that the only shot he had at a long-term deal was to opt out now? Baron Davis sure didn't look like a healthy Baron Davis this season. Was he, and is he, a wounded Baron Davis who is under contract for another four years? Only time will tell, which is likely what we will have a lot of with Baron. GM Dunleavy tried to trade Davis before the deadline this spring, with an inactive Tracy MacGrady rumored to the inbound player. But Houston declined. They'd rather keep their inactive player than bring in the shell of a player with a lot of money yet to come. This offseason, the list of potential suitors for Baron's services will be very small. Chances are high that he will remain a Clipper. We may have to embrace it.
Kaman is next. While he is certainly more moveable than Davis, it is unlikely that in a tough economy teams will want to absorb the remaining three years of his bloated deal, especially considering he's rarely on the court, and when he is, forgets that he is seven feet tall and looks to finesse his way to glory. Perhaps management believes that DeAndre Jordan is the future at the position, which he may well be, and are ready to hand him the keys to the middle now. In that case, the Clippers could consider taking pennies on the dollar from Chicago or Charlotte. We have lamented over Kaman's limitations for six years. He is what he is; a good rebounder, good shot blocker, nifty post player that over thinks things and can't seem to get out of his own way. I don't expect him to change or improve much from where he is now. But I do predict that Kaman will be playing center for the Los Angeles Clippers for at least another few years.
Players who management feels still has enough of an upside to keep around unless a really good deal comes along, and whose return, therefore, is likely: Al Thornton is this category. Though he certainly regressed overall following a promising rookie season, I'm not sure management is ready to give up on the guy. He is a determined scorer who did show subtle improvement in this area, and his play in the Rookie/Sophomore game showed how skilled he is in the open court, where one is not given a whole lot of time to think but must react. He has a long way to go in the areas of team defense and team offense...and team play, period, for that matter. He is still raw, but talented and athletic. Unless a good deal comes along involving one of the aforementioned untradables, in which AT could also be packaged, I do see him as part of next year's Clippers.
Players it would make little sense to get rid of: DeAndre Jordan, Mike Taylor. Jordan and Taylor are young and raw. Both have a huge upside, cost very little, and were able to get some in game experience this year. Both looked really good at times. They may well be part of the future of this franchise. They stay.
Players who may or may not be back and it really doesn't matter much anyway: Mardy Collins, Fred Jones, Brian Skinner, Alex Acker. Collins, a mere throw-in to make the Randolph trade work financially, surprised many with his versatility, most notably during the stretch when he handled the point guard duties covering for the injured Baron Davis and Mike Taylor. Collins was everything John Hollinger said he wasn't, and not much of what Hollinger said he was. Considered to be a terrible offensive player whose survival in the league was due solely to his defensive hustle, Collins was actually adequately efficient on the offensive end and pretty marginal defensively, save for the terrific performance vs. Paul Pierce in the improbable win over the Celtics. In any event, he and Fred Jones were useful utility players (as one would hope). Collins is still under contract, and unless packaged as a filler in a trade, will probably be around next year, which really will make little difference to the bottom line one way or the other.
The other three are goners.
Players the Clippers would like to have back but likely won't: Steve Novak. The deadly 3-point specialist whose game offers little else was nevertheless a positive factor for the Clippers. His shooting numbers in late February and early March were otherworldly. He is an unrestricted a restricted free-agent, so I would imagine that a contender or team on the brink will look to bring him in, and I imagine he would welcome the change. The only way Novak returns is if the Clippers outbid everyone decide to match a likely sizable offer. I say he's a goner.
Players who will NOT be on the roster at some point next year: Marcus Camby, Ricky Davis. Ricky is self-explanatory. The former 20ppg scorer was completely useless this year. He has a player option for $2M, but the Clippers are better off just eating it and getting him out of town. I'm sure they realize this. He's a goner.
The big fish is Camby. From a purely business standpoint, moving Camby makes some sense. His expiring contract is extremely desirable, and he can still be useful for a team on the brink. He will have value in the offseason as teams assess why they made early exits from the playoffs, and perhaps even more value at the deadline as disappointing teams look to shuffle the deck. The Clippers may be able to get a nice player and a pick in exchange for Marcus, unless they decide they want to keep the expiring deal for themselves (which I favor, barring a can't miss deal). Given that the Clippers are stuck with Kaman and Randolph, they will likely entertain potential offers for Camby from Miami, New York, New Jersey, or whoever else comes knocking. Whether this happens before or during the season remains unclear.
These are the facts as I see them. So then, where are these changes? By my math, barring miraculous stupidity by some of the league's more questionable GMs, there will be eight players returning to this dreadful team (with the potential for Camby to be around for opening day), plus a lottery pick. The most likely starting lineup involves Davis, Gordon, Thornton, Randolph and Kaman. A quick glance reveals that this is pretty much the same mess that finished off the season in such uninspiring fashion.
Given that the roster is unlikely to change much, and changes are certainly in order, the only reasonable course of action is a coaching change. It is certainly easier to replace one coaching staff than a roster of nine, three of which are virtually unmovable. There are a number of current assistants and out of work coaches to choose from, but the Clippers would be wise to find one suited to the roster. Perhaps somebody who likes to play up-tempo. Eddie Jordan comes to mind. He had some success in Washington before being forced to fall on the sword as the result of ownerships mistakes. Or, since defense was clearly a problem, they could go for a defensive genius like the Celtics Tom Thibodeau. Maurice Cheeks is a good coach and, surprisingly, still unemployed. There are many more choices, but I will leave that for others to decide.
If there is to be change, it will likely have to occur at the coaching level. This is not intended to be the position of ClipsNation, but, rather, an answer to the question of how this team can be changed.
UPDATE: Many readers are reporting that Steve Novak is a restricted free agent, meaning that any offer can be matched by the Clippers. I'm unsure at this point, but if it is true, it just means that yet another player from current team returns, making a coaching change all the more necessary.
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Good writeup
Nice breakdown. I do however think that Kaman can very likely be moved. A lot of teams see him as a rare true center with skills. Plus, they probably think he only has issues because the Clips are so horrible. With the right coaching and teammates, I think it’s a very legit argument that Kaman could be much better.
How sad that you have to write “there are no more suckers” to take ZBo? Freaking Dumbleavy. You know it’s bad when you and Isaiah Thomas are the only two morons who would take ZBo’s contract.
Camby is definitely gone. The question is whether they go the cheap route and just give him away for draft picks, or they actually do something smart and leverage him to unload ZBo.
It course it’d be nice if “they” didn’t consist of DTS, Roeser and Dunleavy…the friggin 3 Stooges of the NBA.
Perhaps Kaman could be moved
If the Clips are wiling to take back some contract, they can maybe get a Gerald Wallace. But he is owed some big money for longer than Kaman. Otherwise, I am at a loss for who would a) take him, and b) give up anybody good.
Same with Davis. It is theoretically possible to move them, but not for value. That is the quandry.
F-Elton!
Gerald for Kaman is not happening
Excellent breakdown of the Clippers, but there is no way the Bobcats are trading Gerald Wallace for Kaman.
Wallace is by far the most popular and marketable player on the Bobcats, a team that’s struggling with attendance and sponsors. Down the stretch this season, he played incredible, probably better than any small forward not named LeBron. He’s not on the trading block.
Here’s what Bobcat owner Bob Johnson had to say about Gerald in an article in yesterday’s Charlotte Observer,
Q. You’re a big fan of the game of basketball in general. Who’s your favorite player on the Bobcats squad?
It’s still Gerald Wallace. I have seen Gerald grow so much. He used to have almost no control over what he did in the air, and now he’s almost an acrobat. He’s working hard on the defensive side, rebounding and being a forceful leader on the team. I think he is clearly my favorite in terms of sheer energy, courage and determination. He just never gives up.
One can dream......
of a day without Chris Kaman. I think there’s a chance he can be moved for 65 cents on the dollar….I hope that happpens. According to the LA times, Kaman is considering playing for Germany in the offseason. Please, let’s trade him now before he gets injured again and misses 40+ games again. Enough is enough.
This is going to be my team, and we're going to rise together.
-Clipper Darrell
i got insight on the baron benching thing
he had his bday party the day before and he was 2-13 shooting so he benched him
the 2 dont have any problems and if you read gilberts blog baron wasnt planning to opt out the day before, and its elton brand that convinced him to sign with you guys then he bolted and now him and baron arent speaking to each other, i think once elton left baron rather would have been in GS and i think brand did that because he was leaving for philly
I don't doubt that
I’m just trying to look at another angle of what went wrong with BD. Baron left the perfect situation in GSW to come here and have the worst year of his career. Just examining whether there is more behind it. Pure speculation. Probably should have put it in another article.
F-Elton!
nah
no need to speculate..
baron thought him and elton in LA was a instant win for everyone. Baron would get to hang out with Jessica Alba party in LA his hometown. Make the playoffs with the clips with kaman and mags and etc.
Everyone in the media thought it was going to be a win too.
Till Elton inexplicably left.
i tihnk elton meant to leave the whole time but didnt want to leave clipperland lost and hopeless so he said he wanted legit help before he resigned
thats why he nd baron arnt on speaking terms
Don't think so
I saw the two of them together last summer after it all went down. They were hanging out – friends. I think that EB probably wanted out and helped BD get paid. The no speaking thing is a charade. MDSr was hoodwinked.
it is true.. at least the not on speaking terms
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/nov/21/sports/sp-clipperfyi21
“I’ve got nothing to say to him,” Davis said on Wednesday.
This was in the visitors’ dressing room at Oklahoma City, not long after the Clippers beat the Thunder by 20 points. The mention of Brand quickly wiped away Davis’ smile, especially because he just had been talking about Oklahoma City’s Earl Watson, saying he regards Watson like “a brother.”
Davis hasn’t spoken to Brand, and said he doesn’t plan to do so, because the former Clipper recruited Davis to come join him in Los Angeles and then Brand did a quick cut and run, heading East for a bigger bag of money, a five-year deal worth almost $80 million.
Novak is an RFA
and I think that is long as a team doesn’t sign him to a huge offer sheet, the Clips will probably match
Thats what I thought.....
He will be back unless someone throws Kapono or Korver money at him. Then the Clips would let him go.
Do or do not. There is no try.
yes...Swish is a RFA
MILPH had a graphic and said that mgmt was confident they would bring him back…of course they said that about EB…
Roger Sterling: I bet there were people in the Bible walking around, complaining about "kids today."
Don Draper: Kids today, they have no one to look up to. Cuz they're looking up to us.
by Lawler's Law on Apr 16, 2009 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Hes an RFA
Mar 23 F Steve Novak will be a restricted free agent this summer and said recently that he hopes to return to the Clippers. He is making a strong case for himself. The offense is ideal for Novak because it takes advantage of his catch-and-shoot strength. Over the past six games, Novak has made 24 of 39 three-point field-goal tries.
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:q1vuUo1XnkIJ:ca.sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4160/news+steve+novak+restricted&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
Contradiction
According to HoopsHype, he is not restricted.
I went by this. Not sure who’s right.
Doesn’t change the overall conclusion; this roster is coming back, so changing the coach is the only plausible fix.
F-Elton!
I think he's restricted..
Ralph mentioned on the radio, during the last game against the Thunder, that Novak is restricted. Hopefully he’s a good source.. LOL
'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!
by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Apr 16, 2009 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions
In light of the news about KG
I feel there is a strong possibility that Cleveland can go all the way this year and win the championship. If, and its a pretty big if, they actually DO end up winning it all, I don’t see how LeBron leaves Cleveland after 2010. The Cavs would most likely throw everything at him next year in hopes of signing him to an extension before he can even think about leaving.
The reason I bring this up is because, if LeBron suddenly comes off the market, do teams still try to make cap space for DWade and/or Bosh? Realistically, how many teams would be willing or able to do it.
The next domino to fall would be that teams change their tactics and be willing to trade for help, rather than get it through free agency. This is where the Clips come in, and they have plenty of pieces to play with. Kaman, Camby, RDavis come to mind immediately, and to a lesser extent Thorton (although I would need to be blown away with the trade to get rid of him right now). I even think some teams (like the Bulls, as mentioned above), might even consider taking on ZBo, knowing full well his contract is really only for 2 more years.
I know this is a lot of conjecture, but LeBron winning a championship this year (and resigning with Cleveland) would change the complexion of the 2010 free agent class entirely….and in turn COULD help the Clippers as well. Just a thought.
Do or do not. There is no try.
Interesting...
Pretty rich insight there, Show. It brings up memories of the last time the contracts came up, with the first possibility of extensions, and they all signed 3 year deals and stayed put.
Not sure that LeBron winning a championship takes him off the market, but it will be a factor.
And I’d add how Steve Hartman was saying on the radio today that if Lebron wins the title it means that Kobe loses it, and he might use his opt out to become the first global bball icon and take the Big Money and play in Europe. Unlikely, but another possible LeBron domino.
by citizen zhiv on Apr 16, 2009 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't see LeBron going from a team that won 66 games to a team like NY that
won 32. NY says the city’s the big draw. It’s nice but is that everything? I think if he goes somewhere else it will be with a chance to win a (or another) championship, like Garnett going to Boston, or Payton and Malone going to the Lakers. O.k., that one didn’t work out, but the thoughts the same.
Agree...
I can’t see LeBron leaving a winning team just to play in the NYC. One scenario where he does leave is if the Knicks can sign both LeBron AND DWade or Bosh. Not sure how much money that would take, but if the economy is still in the dumper, it may not take that much.
So, of all the teams clearing cap space, or able to clear cap space, are there any that are even winners? Doesn’t look like it. As Zhiv mentioned, I think it is entirely possible Wade and LeBron stay put. Bosh may have to leave considering how much the Raptors regressed this past year. So much for the anticipated free agent bonanza.
Do or do not. There is no try.
He's Lebron
No matter where he goes he has a chance to win another championship.
It’s not like Cleveland was some juggernaut before he showed up. They were completely useless Pre Lebron (PL if you will)
FWIW, Bill Simmons made the case today that Lebron’s not leaving Cleveland (in his opinion)
by Michael White on Apr 16, 2009 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions
This year's Cavs are useless without him
But the table is set for him to stay, and Cleveland will have some cap room, too, and may be able to bring in Bosh or D. Wade.
F-Elton!
+1 good point about the cap room
I think everyone forgets the number of teams that have a good amount of cap room for 2010… Teams need what, like 16-20 mil in cap room to make a max offer… I just took a quick look
Atlanta
Chicago
Cleveland (including lebron)
Detroit
Houston (including yao)
Memphis
Miami (including d wade)
Minnesota
new jersey (has a bunch of team options)
New york
Oklahoma City
Portland (although they still need to pay bRoy)
Sacramento
San Antonio (with parker and duncan)
Toronto (if bosh leaves)
That’s like half the league that could be in a position to make a max offer…
by cantthinkofagoodname on Apr 17, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Wow!
That is going to be one crazy summer
F-Elton!
Not really
I really don’t understand all that 2010 free agency bonanza.
Sure, there might be some guys available, but i doubt that the bigger names will leave their teams, cause that’s just the way it goes.
I expect Wade and Lebron back with their teams and even Carmelo Anthony should stay in Denver.
The three (younger)guys i could see moving are Amare, Bosh and Joe Johnson.
Though, are those 3 guys really going to carry a team to a championship on their own?
I really doubt that, cause Amare hasn’t been able to do it with a 2 time MVP on his side, Bosh can’t even lead the Raptors to the playoffs this year and Johnson, while being a really good allrounder, isn’t a guy to do it all on his own as well.
So even if those 3 guys are really good players, they aren’t Lebron or Wade and won’t be able to make you a championship contender, without some other pieces(hello NY). Also, their teams know about their contracts and i even doubt(with Johnson being the exception, thanks to Atlantas mess called Ownership) that they’ll hit free agency, cause i think they’ll be moved this summer or before next years trading deadline, allowing their current teams to add something solid for them in return.
BTW: As far as the Clips go.
I expect Camby to be gone before next season starts and i think that the draft will be the time he’ll go. Some contender will surely offer something nice(Spurs really wanted him this February) and i doubt that the Clips can resist this time.
I also believe that Kaman can(and hopefully will) be moved this summer, cause a team like Chicago might want the go after him, if they can’t get Bosh/Amare this summer. I could really see something like Brad Miller + Pick for Kaman + filler going down.
Guys we won’t be able to trade are Z-Bo and Davis, cause there’ll be no one willing to touch them, as long as we don’t throw them our pick, as well as taking some crappy contract in return as well.
Oh, and i’m absolutely with mikey p in that we at least need to get rid head coach Mike Dunleavy. Though, if only there wasn’t Donald Sterling and his man love for that guy….
im not sure it is man love
more like money love
In Gordon we trust
by bestclipfan on Apr 19, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
So..
Kaman and Camby will be gone this summer? Who is going to play center, ZBo? DeAndre? That leaves a pretty big hole in the lineup. If anything happens, only one of them will be traded this summer. Personally though, I think that both will be Clippers when the season starts next year.
Do or do not. There is no try.
Jordan, Skinner and Miller(if my trade scenario is right)
If we’d be able to get rid of Kaman and get something nice for Camby we’d be rebuilding.
Therefore DeAndre Jordan should see some minutes and be given a chance to show what he can do. Sure he might cost us some games and drive us nuts any other game, but getting rid of Kaman and turning Camby into something useful while we can(he’ll definitely be gone next summer) is way more importand for this franchise then thinking about how our center rotation will look like.
Also, there are alwys those solid role playing bigs out there on the cheap, that can give you 10 – 15 minutes of solid basketball. And if that Kaman to Chicago deal would happen, that would most likely get us Brad Miller back, who’d be a solid one year rental.
@mwhite06: I could see us holding on to Camby until the trading deadline happen as well, though, i think teams might try to avoid a bigger bidden war and will try to get him as fast as possible, which would be this years draft.
+1 WRT your point about 2010
I don’t think you’re off much on what happens with Kaman and Camby. I think Kaman gets moved this summer and the year starts with Camby as the center. If the team is not competitive, Camby will be moved to a contender.
by Michael White on Apr 19, 2009 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Right on
A lot could change. My point is that, barring the unknown, this roster is returning next year.
LeBron winning a ring could make things interesting, but right now, this is what we are left with.
F-Elton!
True...
I totally agree with your assessment (except for the Novak part…I still think he is an RFA)…but a guy can dream, can’t he? Here is hope for some change this summer….
Do or do not. There is no try.
Even if I am wrong about Novak
which I very well may be, it just means that yet another returning player, making the need for a coaching change all the more necessary.
F-Elton!
I just hope....
At some point the finger pointing and whining has to end. Correct me if I’m wrong but when we were healthy we were almost playing .600 ball before everyone went down and without kaman. I actually believe that was about the time ej started to shine. I am not saying this was badly writin but it seams like everyone on all clipper sights are just crying about everyones play or lack of. There is very little in anyone’s “Fix the clippers” that actually talks about fixing the clippers…it’s more like “This is why/who x-player sucks”. I’m sorry but I think we have had less than 15 games all season with all our core team including kaman playing together. I do believe that dunleavy needs to go as coach but kept as gm. At worst he should be on a tight leash if he is the coach, he should stay above .600 or else he is fired. I don’t think people realize we lost 20/10 and got back 20/10 with less d but with more range. Baron really needs one more chance and so do all the other players. We do need to move camby because we don’t have any other wing player that can score 15-20 besides ej/at. We need one more. Or at least a wing/sf that has a complete offensive/defensive game. So basically I do believe dunleavy should be moved upstairs and the organization should bring in someone fresh may rambis, maybe eddie jordan, someone with experience with offensive minded players. We should keep our coaching staff and have them concentrate more on defensive control of the team. I love camby but he is the only player with valuable trade value that might be able to get us a caron butler or a wallace type player.
"Correct me if I’m wrong but when we were healthy we were almost playing .600 ball "
I think you are mistaken. The time you are referring to is the run we went on when we traded for Zach Randolph. However immediately after Zach was moved to LA, Kaman went down. The best stretch of basketball was with ZBo and Camby (no Kaman) an EJ in the starter role. But the sample size is way too small to say the least.
by Michael White on Apr 16, 2009 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks
It’s hard not to rip this team to shreds.
For me, a team needs to be either one of two things: good or fun to watch.
The 2001 Clippers were fun to watch, but not very good. The 2005 Clippers were good, but not very fun.
This team was neither. Change is in order, and with 9 returning players, it must be at the coaching level.
F-Elton!
Why oh why
would anyone keep Dunleavy as GM of this team? That’s just silliness.
MP – GREAT post
Good question
Maybe there’s another Russian kid that needs drafting. Besides, if Sr. resigns as GM, who will the other GM’s take advantage of? Isaiah’s gone, and Kevin McHale only deals with Boston.
Thanks Jax.
F-Elton!
Sign...
AI, he’ll want to redeem himself from this season in Detroit. That does seem highly unlikely though so I say keep Baron, keep Thornton and trade Kaman. I hate Kaman, even when he does good he’ll always follow it up with a bad play, trade him for Wallace…I would love that.
Your pretty much wrong on thornton and about the starting line up for next year. IF it is Davis, Gordon, Thornton, Randolph, and Kaman, i think they would do good. You said they did bad ending the season, but Kaman isnt himself, randolph wasnt there, davis is probably hurt, thronton isn’t there, only gordon. So if they are all at top performance and healthy we will be good. I heard, I think it was Mike Smith who said it, that heinrich, or however you spell his name, would be a good player. I think he would also
It's hard to say we haven't seen enough of this team
And when I say team, I mean coach included. This lineup, with this coach, will not win a thing.
Since the lineup is staying, the coach must go. Then maybe this lineup can be successful.
F-Elton!
Nice Mikey...
But don’t agree about Kaman. He plays defense, fills the middle, and rebounds… and his contract’s okay for a center who makes those contributions. His problem is those injuries keep him off the court too long. I do think he has pretty decent value because those kind of big guys are pretty rare… though Camby’s probably more immediately valuable and Deandre’s not nearly ready, nor does he seem to have any of Kaman’s farmboy strength inside.
Finally, you’re right, the biggest problem is Baron Davis… expensive, untradeable, and the guy’s an anomaly… no one can figure out what’s going on with him… injuries, conditioning, mood?
Kaman's is what he is
We have seen 6 years of it.
I’m sure he can be moved, but I don’t think he can be moved for any value.
F-Elton!
You're right...
Chris Kaman is what he is. It’s frustrating to look at him and see what might have been…but he’s still a lot better than most of what else is out there, better than anything we’ve currently got, and better than what he’d probably bring back.
Hes an RFA according to Yahoo and many other sites
Mar 23 F Steve Novak will be a restricted free agent this summer and said recently that he hopes to return to the Clippers. He is making a strong case for himself. The offense is ideal for Novak because it takes advantage of his catch-and-shoot strength. Over the past six games, Novak has made 24 of 39 three-point field-goal tries.
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:q1vuUo1XnkIJ:ca.sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4160/news+steve+novak+restricted&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
Trying to figure this out...
In my experience there’s a lot of misunderstanding about the complexities of free agency and the NBA “CBA” (much of it my own). Clipsnation’s own John R seems to understand it as well or better than anyone… though I haven’t seen him check in on this argument… yet.
But this is from Larry Coon’s excellent “NBA Salary Cap FAQ” (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm):
“Restricted free agency exists only on a limited basis. It is allowed following the fourth year of rookie “scale” contracts for first round draft picks… It is also allowed for all veteran free agents who have been in the league three or fewer seasons."
I assumed Novak was an unrestricted free agent because he was a 2nd round pick… but he has also, I believe, been in the league less than three seasons (he was picked in June ‘06 and played in ’07-’08, ‘08-’09), which, as I read it, would qualify him as a restricted free agent. So… I was wrong, he’s an RFA.
You got it...
The confusion stems from the way that first round picks are handled versus everyone else. On sites like HoopsHype and Sham Sports, the Qualifying Offer of the RFA season is listed in a special color, because it’s easy to calculate and post the moment the pre-determined rookie scale contract is signed. But it does not mean that other young players are not also RFA’s. If the Clippers make a qualifying offer to Novak (I think it the required QO is at least current salary plus a percentage, or the minimum for his year’s of service, whichever is larger) then he will be an RFA.
Having said all of that, it still means that it’s going to come down to what other teams are going to offer. The Clippers will not match just any offer – nor should they. But I think they’d like to keep him if the price is reasonable.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 17, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Well...
I’d like to see how the team would do under a new coach.. I think everyone agrees that we have talent here, but it’s just not working in Dunleavy’s (so called) system.
'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!
Agreed. We always complain about the style of play
and the clippers could do so much more in a free flowing offense. I say just give them a new coach and let’s see how it goes. If fails, it’s the players
funny....
how right after I post the whining becomes amplified, qclippers said something really insightful as did a few other…if we do get a new coach and system and we cant win then it is the players. As for the person who said it “was the run when we had traded for zach”, it was, like I said when we didn’t have kaman. Also about the run, the run was with bd/ej/at/zr/mc all starting. Also I’m not going to go and look back but the last time I remember it was like 9 and 7 with all them starting. As for Jax, yes, I would want Mike Dunleavy as a gm…have you heard of some kid named Eric Gordon, if not, I think you might want to do your home work.
I would be ok with MDsr as gm only
but there is no way he will accept that and I believe it has already been tried. I think the only possibility is to fire him from both positions. Lets just hope that after the boo fest that the clips got the management gets the message that we want MDsr gone.
In Gordon we trust
by bestclipfan on Apr 16, 2009 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Not sure the Gordon pick does enough to absolve Dunleavy of his previous failures
Passing up Danny Granger for Yari Korolev is the most egregious.
Also, I have a hard time calling the Gordon pick a stroke of genius. He fell into the Clippers lap because the Knicks took Gallineri.
His record as GM is very mixed.
F-Elton!
well
he got us Thornton, EJ, Taylor, and DJ in two years that is pretty good but again I don’t see it possible that his ego allows him to accept being demoted as a coach and still staying. And plus I would be suspicious that he would be making bad deals as retribution.
In Gordon we trust
by bestclipfan on Apr 16, 2009 11:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow - didn't know there were any MDSr defenders left
I tend to look at W-L historically for GMs – MDSr? Do we really need to get into it again?
Forget about Korolev and everyone else before this year – he should never have (a) signed BD for five years; or (b) traded for ZBo.
I'm still here as well, Jax...
I continue to think MD is a better than decent GM… but I don’t think the demotion would work (and I’ve come around to thinking a change at coach is a necessity).
I’ve said this before, Presti and Pritchard are looked at as the new young geniuses, but all either one has really done is get lucky in the lottery. Danny Ainge is the golden boy now, but he was terrible until his buddy Kevin McHale (perhaps the worst GM since Isiah Thomas) gift-wrapped KG.
I think the jury’s out on ZBo, and when it happened, almost everyone thought the BD signing was a huge positive. We’re seeing a lot of revisionism on that front.
Why does everyone say Garnett was a gift, the Celtics gave up some real
talent and first round picks for him. The next time I hear this I’m going to run outside and scream the Lakers got Gasol for a cup of coffe and a pack of cigarettes. Please guys, I know the Lakers are here, but how about a little objectivity.
Okay...
They did. They gave up Harrington and draft picks for one of the top five players in the league. It was a sweet deal for Danny Ainge. But that wasn’t really my point. My point is that Danny Ainge (and Doc Rivers) were pretty much bums before that deal was made. (Where Ainge took risk, IMO, was trading a high pick for Ray Allen. That was successful and took balls.
Ainge's best move was the Allen deal
And I think you meant Al Jefferson
F-Elton!
I was wondering last night
whether this will turn out to be a better deal long run for the Wolves. Yes it revitaized the Celtics, but look at the beast young Jefferson is turning into.
Pritchard has done alot of things right, not just getting lucky in the draft. Disagree strongly about
Both CS (SP?) and I had reservations about BD at the time, but had we known that MDSr would have been so inflexible I would have been against it.
I think Al Jefferson was avg. 21 and 11 when he was included in the trade.
How many teams would want them on their roster? Do you think the Celtics would like to have him back right now?
I think what set me off was Vic the Brick yesterday calling for an investigation by the league into the Garnett trade. I appreciate his homerness to the Lakers, but get real. It just pissed me off.
by eastie Rich on Apr 17, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Did Vic the Brick call for an investigation of the Pau Gasol trade too?
by Michael White on Apr 17, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Would the Celtics have won a championship with Harrington, Pierce, and Allen?
I don’t think so.
Of course it’s a ridiculous argument, because Minnesota wasn’t gonna win anything anyway…
The classic cunundrum
Trading a future franchise player for an older great player who ends up injured and retires (not saying that will happen here).
Is one championship worth it?
When you are a team like the Celtics, one more championship is worth it
Ainge and Rivers bought themselves a lot of time by winning that one. Where the team goes in the next few years is anyone’s guess. But they do have a top flight PG and some decent post players.
F-Elton!
"Is one championship worth it?"
Ya I think it is. It is so difficult to win a championship (in any sport) that if you see a window to propel you to win a championship you take it. I can’t argue with what the Celtics did at all. It’s a tough call to be sure…
by Michael White on Apr 17, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, definitely is
There are 30 teams in the league, if your team could win a championship ever 20 years you are still doing a good job. I don’t know how we’re even questioning this thinking seeing how we were willing to add players like ZBo after a terrible start in the Western Conference in a desperate attempt to salvage the season.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 17, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Whoops, posted in the wrong spot.
Vic didn’t want an investigation into the Gasol trade. Even he knows how laughable it was.
Pritchard...
You’re probably right about him. But it’s a mixed bag. He traded Foye for Roy, which was flat out brilliant (helped out by the execrable McHale). He traded Tyrus Thomas to get LaMarcus Aldridge, picked up Fernandez for pocket change, and passed on Chris Paul and Deron Williams(!) He had the good sense to hire Nate McMillan. And he cleaned house in a house that needed cleaning. And when he did get lucky in the draft… he took Greg Oden over Kevin Durant when he already had a pretty decent Joe Pryzbilla (though admittedly he already had Roy, no point guard and one ball). In my mind, he’s a B headed towards a B+. He’s done well and made some mistakes. Same as Dunleavy, I think.
I also don’t think you can separate the fact that MD thought he was bringing BD to a team that already had EB, what would that team have been like? Do you think they’d have won only twenty games?
I agree, but
I would ultimately look at W-L. Portland is doing very well, not surprisingly. A- at worst.
I cannot believe that you believe that MDSr is in the same league with Pritchard. Boggles the mind.
I predicted last March on this board that EB would likely bolt. MDsr should have known that this was a distinct possibility. Because of EB’s injury they still might have won only 20 games. And I can’t see how BD and EB would have played together in a slow down system unless EB would have played center.
I left out one thing...
…Pritchard’s extraordinary arrogance regarding the Miles situation. Whatever. And he didn’t have many wins at all until this year. But… there’s no doubt Portland’s built a nice team. I like them. I like their whole organization.
Don’t know how you could possibly know EB was leaving, unless you can read minds (maybe you can)… but I don’t think that’s worth arguing about anymore. I’m just saying Pritchard isn’t as golden as everyone seems to currently think. And… I think Dun has been better than decent… as a GM.
As to what the team would have been with EB this year? I don’t know, maybe he would have inspired BD to get in shape, play some defense, work it out with the coach. I guess maybe that’s all happening in some alternate-parallel dimension… oh, damn I forgot, you’re JAX, you have access to those netherworlds… well why don’t you look in your crystal ball and tell me what happened. Lol.
Good points
The EB prediction wasn’t based on anything except that I knew EB could opt out and that I thought he would jump at the chance to leave because MDSr is such a tool.
Oddly
I think EB leaving may turn out to be a good thing. The odds of him coming off two serious injuries and retrurning to form in his 30’s are pretty slim. At least Z-Bo can get on the court.
But then again, Philly made the playoffs and the Clips didn’t come close. Both teams are in a bad cap situation going forward.
F-Elton!
By all accounts Miles was done
The Blazers saw a way to clear some cap space, don’t see what’s so arrogant about that. The letter may have been in poor taste but I would be paranoid too that other teams would pay Miles the minimum just to screw over my cap space.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 17, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Would you have rather
had Beno Udrih? I’m not sure I would. I think Baron still has more potential.
As for MDSr as just GM; I think he’s too much of a control freak. I feel he’d be a nightmare.
not a Dunleavy defender
I can’t stand him as a coach but he is a decent GM but like I said there is no way is ego would let him stay as GM and not coach.
In Gordon we trust
Anyone know when the coin toss is going to be to see
how many Ping Pong balls we get?
In Gordon we trust
The coin toss
is only for draft position, not number of ping pong balls, if I remember correctly. Since the Wiz and the Clips finished with identical records, they get the same amount of ping pong balls (take the number of ping pong balls for #2 and #3, add together and divide by 2 I think). The coin toss is for drafting position assuming neither team wins the lottery. Can anyone confirm this?
Do or do not. There is no try.
Not sure
of the exact number of balls we get but according to ESPN we have a 17.8% chance of getting the 1st pick. Thats not shabby, we need all the help we can get.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/lottery2009/mockdraft
FA in 2010.
he also got us camby for 2nd round pick swap consideration, zach for tim underachiever thomas, and he wasn’t gm when we picked yk, but he might have still been running the show. As for the lottery us and the wiz combine our balls then split them in half the coin toss determines who gets the extra ball cause it’s an odd number and that person is actually seeded ahead of the other if one does not win it all. I can’t believe this happens two years in a row though.
Well I guess
we just cross our fingers tell May 19th then but knowing clips luck we will get the lowest we can possibly get which I think is 5th.
In Gordon we trust
by bestclipfan on Apr 16, 2009 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Zach wasn't a good move
We’re stuck with him in 2011. We won 19 games with Zach, it couldn’t have been much worse with Tim and Cat. In fact we’d have a better shot at Blake Griffin…
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 17, 2009 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions
hey well if you dont get the first pic, ricky rubio! or maby james harden? demar derozan? brandon jennings?
jennins actually stated he look up to baron as a kid growing up in LA
i think if you guys drafted jennings he could really learn alot from BD then once hes ready you guys should trade BD to houston
we dint need another superfast unpolished point guard
when we have mike taylor. besides, jennings’ numbers aren’t all that impressive in Europe.
by cantthinkofagoodname on Apr 17, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Saying Zach wasn't a good move
because it hurt our chance at getting Blake Griffin doesn’t make much sense to me. So now we are judging deals by saying if the deal made the team better it was a bad deal? I wasn’t interested in tanking for 2 years in some pipe dream that we may get Lebron and I certainly didn’t want to tank (after the first 20 games) in the hopes of getting Blake Griffin.
I like Blake Grifiin, but I don’t think he’s going to be the savior to any franchise. Someone here (I apologize I can’t remember who) once brought up the comparison between Griffin and Michael Beasley, and it was a pretty compelling argument to me.
by Michael White on Apr 17, 2009 7:42 AM PDT up reply actions
So now you're back to supporting ZBo?
Not easy to pin you down. Which is it?
I just want honest arguments on this board
I’m an enigma, wrapped in a riddle. What can I say, my thoughts are fluid to be sure. If people make good arguments and I agree, my mind is open to being changed. I tell you this, I didn’t exactly enjoy watching the Clips get boat raced by OKC the last game without Zach. Zach’s defense might leave something to be desired, but its not like the Clippers are firing on all cylinders without him. From a (purely) basketball standpoint (contracts and DUI’s aside—- I know that’s a lot to keep aside for the moment) Zach makes the Clippers better.
I think I get your argument, you didn’t like the Zbo deal because he’s expensive and has 2 years left on his deal. You don’t like that MDsr “mortgaged the future” for Zbo. I get that.
Another argument is that Zbo is such a nut job that he simply shouldn’t be on the Clippers. I get that argument too.
I don’t get the argument (which I have seen on this blog) that Zach is bad at basketball. That he puts up “empty stats” etc. And I certainly don’t understand the logic of not trying to improve the team because it hurts our draft status (and oh making that decision at Game 20.)
by Michael White on Apr 17, 2009 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions
I understand
I think that we need to find better folks to build our team around.
Zach isn't bad per se
But its a basic economic lesson we have to acknowledge in the salary cap era. Zach came at tremendous opportunity cost, as we now have little to look forward to in 2010, he played the same position as 2 of our highest paid players (Camby and Kaman).
Did he improve our team? Maybe in short-term but realistically how many wins did he contribute to this year? 3? We only won 19 games so I fail to see how he helped our situation much. I argued this until I was blue when the trade was announced (and prayed it would be rescinded when they found out about Cat’s condition) that this trade did nothing for us. Even if everyone was healthy there was no way our team would make the playoffs (with the cutoff being 48 wins this year), and how much would the team realistically be able to improve in the years after with a 35 year old Camby and a 30 year old Baron?
It’s not Zach Randolph is a bad player, he’s just a bad MAX salary player. Keep in mind he makes as much or more than Lebron, Wade, Melo, CP3, Deron Williams, etc etc. How you allocate your resources with how the cap is structured these days is imperative to your team’s success. So while other teams are investing in true superstars, our best player is above average offensive player than is a bit of a defensive liability. That’s not the recipe you win with.
So now we’re probably stuck in limbo until 2011 unless we defy our 25 years of history and land the one no-brainer pick of the draft.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 17, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Failed Draft Picks
In regards to Yaroslav Korolev over Danny Granger
Chris Wilcox over Amare Stoudemire and Caron Butler was pretty bad too. Considering they had a top ten pick as well as a lottery pick in which they chose Melvin Ely.
Shaun Livingston over Devin Harris and Jameer Nelson
Though I do give MDSr. credit for taking a gamble, it was a questionable decision for a team that needed a PG
F-Elton!
Nope... Wilcox and Ely were before MDSr....
So was Kaman. Livingston was Dun’s first. And the argument that Livingston was a bad pick is specious.
Not a bad idea at the time...
He wanted to make sure upper management continued to invest money… something they were not prone to doing in years gone by… and Kaman still had a lot of upside… certainly more than he has today.
I remember in the offseason clipper fans were worried that we'd lose Kaman
I don’t think anyone thought the move was terrible at the time
It still has a chance of working out
We’re definitely down on Chris right now with all the injuries but there are definitely worse contracts out there. I still think he is and can be a solid starting center, let’s just not expect him to carry us.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 17, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions
The silence is angering
We just got crushed by 41 in the last game of the year at home, we finished 19-63, our team has quit on the coach (and themselves). And our ownership response is nothing, well all is normal in Clipperland.
FA in 2010.
yep all is normal
anyone know if DTS was at the game. If he was then there is no way he could ignore the booing.
In Gordon we trust
by bestclipfan on Apr 17, 2009 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
DTS was definitely not there.
DTS didn’t show up for the last two games – Ok City and Portland.
Perhaps he didn’t feel obligated to go, as I did, since my tickets were already paid for. UGH
Ok City had AT LEAST 20 dunks and reminded me of our promising squad with Darius, Lamar, Q,etc.
How about we unload Camby for one of OKC’s first round picks?
Solid, solid post Mikey P.
Even more so with your contributions
F-Elton!
I'm responding so the comments hit a hundred...
And without a single contribution from Clipper S— I mean the Mighty Steve Perrin.
100+ comments
in less than 24 hours and not on a game thread.
Very nice post mikey p.
by Michael White on Apr 17, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions
So what are you saying?
I guess you just don’t need me.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 17, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I still need you
professionally, of course
F-Elton!
Just that when Clipsnation takes over the world...
mikey p will have his rightful place at the table.
Vaunted Status
Mikey P was always as solid as it gets, but earned his stars with a spectacular effort last summer. But I fear that this disastrous season really hurt him, and it goes to show how poor, dismal play takes away from the collective strength of ClipsNation. Great to see him fire up the engine for a big effort at the finish, however, but the question remains: is there anything the Clippers can do at this point to get us interested, make us even slightly hopeful, let alone get us excited?
by citizen zhiv on Apr 17, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Nope
its out of their hands at this point, only getting Blake Griffin or maybe Ricky Rubio will make us happy. Some computer holds out fate in their calculations.
Actually, I guess if the Spirit gave lapdances during timeouts that would get us interested, hopeful and excited but in totally inappropriate way.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 17, 2009 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions
This season was brutal
I sought out better things to do, which wasn’t really hard. i’m frankly just bored with the slow pace of this team. Even if they finished around .500, their style of play is becoming tedious.
I felt like the Nation tried harder than the actual Clippers. That just won’t do.
F-Elton!
Roadmap for Recovery
1. Fire Dunleavy as coach (Keep him at GM?) – Hire/Lure Avery Johnson (put the fire of God in the team, discipline the bad boys, let Baron run the O instead of MDSr.‘s absurd Al Saunders-like book of set-plays)
2. Stop relying on re-treads – No more Jason Hart, Paul Davis, Mardy Collins, Alex Acker. On the court, on the bench, or on the roster. The Clips idiosyncratic reliance on these scrubs has disrupted the rotations so much nobody knows on any given day when they are on the 2nd team or when they are purely emergency subs.
3. Make a mature decision with some semblance of finality regarding the big man rotation. Personally I prefer Randolph starting, DeAndre Jordan as the first big off the bench.
4. Dump Kaman. Even if’s not a great deal. Addition by subtraction. The possibility of getting any in-game production from him is far outweighed by his erratic health and his disruption of team’s need to set a consistent rotation, not to mention holding back Jordan’s development.
5. Hope to draft Griffin. He’s possibly the next Carlos Boozer except more reliable. If not Griffin, take the best player available regardless (draft rights to Rubio? If not Rubio, take Thabeet, start him at C & Randolph at PF?)
6. 1st team: PG, Baron Davis, SG, Eric Gordon, SF, Al Thornton, PF, TBD, C TBD (Thabeet/Randolph, Randolph/Griffin?)
2nd team: PG, Mike Taylor, SG/SF Fred Jones, PF, Brian Skinner, C DeAndre Jordan
7. Compensate for whatever perceived loss borne by selling off Kaman on a discount by getting a killer deal for Camby & his expiring contract
Thoughts?
by Abstract Capital on Apr 19, 2009 11:35 PM PDT reply actions
I will say what I said on the other thread
Avery=MDsr 2.0 he got fired because he would not run with Kidd no reason to bring him here.
In Gordon we trust
by bestclipfan on Apr 20, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions
get eddy jordan on the phone now!
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
by cliptakular on Apr 23, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
*eddie
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.

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