Dunleavy is Still the Coach? What is the Precedent?
I hope that you've noticed by now that I don't like to make broad statements without backing them up. I have strong opinions, and I've obviously got an avenue for sharing those opinions. But I try not to say that something is right or something else is wrong, without providing some sort of justification.
The reason I bring this up is because it certainly seems to many of us that Mike Dunleavy Sr. should not have a job with the Clippers at this point. That's definitely how I feel at any rate.
Now, the Clippers have never been a franchise to adhere strictly to the conventional wisdom. They're mavericks (true mavericks, not like those wannabes in Dallas). And decades of marching to the beat of their own drummer has yielded the worst track record in the history of professional sports over the franchise's 39 years, worse still in the 29 seasons under the current ownership. So you can't argue with that kind of success (I guess because you can't argue with something that doesn't exist).
There's still time of course, but it's feeling more and more as if MDsr is going to keep both of his titles at least through the beginning of next season. Again, far be it from the Clippers to do anything by the book, but if you were going to fire either your coach or your GM, you'd do it immediately at the conclusion of the season, for myriad reasons. There are draft prospects to scout (you would want to give the new GM a chance to own his draft pick), there are job candidates to interview (Flip Saunders is already off the table and meanwhile teams like Sacramento and Toronto and Minnesota are also in the market for new coaches). And there are messages to be sent - like the message to the fan base that 19 wins is not acceptable, regardless of the circumstances. In short, there is every reason to act quickly and no reason to wait. The fact that MDsr still has a job today is a strong indication that he'll be running another training camp for the Clippers come October.
And there's little or no indication that his seat is particularly hot. With the Lakers starting a playoff run to what may well be another title, the local columnists can't be bothered to waste any ink calling for Dunleavy's head. The obligatory end of season stories from various outlets stopped well short - way too far short, in fact - of criticizing the coach, essentially validating the 'just give me a chance with a healthy roster' refrain we've been hearing for 20 months now. Only Ted Green, in a post on the LA Times' Fabulous Forum blog, seems to have realized that the emperor has no clothes, stating the painfully obvious after the season-ending embarrassment against the Thunder. But Dunleavy himself has stated that he plans on retaining both titles, and no one within the Clippers organization has done anything to indicate otherwise.
And it all seems unprecedented. Obviously the Clippers had some number of issues that were beyond anyone's control, particularly as regards injuries. But even so, a combined 42 wins over two seasons is an unmitigated disaster. In a league chock full of teams in the very depths of painful rebuilding projects (Memphis jettisoned Pau Gasol for nothing, Minnesota said goodbye to Kevin Garnett, Sacramento and Seattle/OKC got rid of, well, everyone), the Clippers have combined to win fewer games than any other NBA team over the last two seasons. I beg of you, please do not gloss over that statement. The Clippers, built around big name veterans making 9 figures annually, have fewer combined wins in the last two seasons than the Thunder.
We've already pointed out on several occasions that virtually every other team in the NBA with a losing record this season has replaced their coach in the last 12 months - the three exceptions being the Warriors, the Pacers and the Clippers. But maybe all those other teams overreacted. Maybe we've entered some sort of immediate gratification era in which the itchy trigger finger of management pulls the plug before a coach has a chance to build anything. Certainly Mark Heisler of the LA Times has in the past made compelling arguments for the value of consistency and continuity. But is there any evidence of teams successfully weathering such a disastrous period and experiencing any success with the same coach?
Not wanting to simply rant and vent and scream that the man should be fired, I went back through the history of the NBA looking for precedents. Namely, I looked for coaches who combined to win fewer than 26% of their games over the course of two consecutive seasons and managed to retain their job the following season. In the 60+ year history of the league, it's happened four times.
- Miami, Ron Rothstein - In their first two seasons of existence, 88-89 and 89-90 the Heat combined to win only 33 games under Rothstein. Of course, we are talking about an expansion franchise, and they did manage to show some improvement, increasing from 15 wins in their first season to 18 wins their second. Rothstein was allowed to coach one more year, the Heat won 24 games, and they replaced him with Kevin Loughery.
- Vancouver, Brian Hill - Like Miami, the Grizzlies were an expansion franchise, although Hill's tenure was actually seasons three and four for the team, inaugural coach Brian Winters having been fired midway through season two. Hill's Grizz won 19 games in 97-98 and then went 8-42 in the strike shortened 98-99 season - a .16 winning percentage that works out to about 13 wins for a full season. So that's a pretty dreadful two season total, with the wins trending down to make matters worse. Still, Hill was allowed to take the Grizz into training camp the following season - only to be fired before Christmas the next season with a last place 4-18 record.
- Cleveland, Bill Fitch - Yet another expansion franchise, this is the one success story on the list. Fitch, who ended his Hall of Fame coaching career with the Clippers at the age of 63, was a 36 year old rookie head coach with the expansion Cavaliers in 1970 (the same year the Clippers came into existence as the Buffalo Braves). In 70-71, the Cavs won 15 games, but in 71-72 they improved to 23 wins. Fitch kept his job, won 32 games the next season, and a couple seasons later led the team to the Eastern Conference Finals and won himself a coach of the year award in the process.
- Chicago, Tim Floyd - This is the only example in the history of the NBA where a non-expansion team retained a coach with a winning percentage below .26 beyond two seasons. Inexplicably, the Bulls stuck with Floyd for 3+ seasons of bad and declining results - 98-99 they went 13-37 in 50 games (approximately 21 wins on a full schedule), the next season they won 17, and the season after that they won 15. They let Floyd begin a fourth season at the helm, and finally fired him (again, before Christmas) with a 4-21 record.
That's it. Four times. Three of the four, it was an expansion team at or near their inception, so the expectations for success were by definition low. Dunleavy, on the other hand, has been coaching a team that was playing in the Western Conference Semi-finals not so very long ago.
It's also worth noting that in only one case did the patience of the franchise pay any dividends. Floyd, Rothstein and Hill were all eventually fired, without ever producing a winning season or a playoff appearance for their teams - far from it, 24 wins by Rothstein was the best season ever for that group. Fitch is the only coach in NBA history to have achieved any sort of coaching success with the same team after such poor back to back seasons. And at least with Fitch, the trends were positive - 15 wins to 23 wins, with a brand new expansion team no less.
It's hard to explain the Bulls' patience with Floyd, but there were definitely extenuating circumstances in Chicago. Floyd's tenure with the club followed immediately after the Jordan/Jackson era, which included 6 championships in 8 seasons, including three straight. But after the last one, Jerry Reinsdorf and Jerry Krause decided that they'd had enough of all that tedious winning, and blew up the team like no team has ever been blown up before or since. A decade of massive success in Chicago had enured everyone to the reality of the NBA, and for several seasons the Bulls continued to lead the league in attendance, despite having one of the worst records. In short, the Jerry's weren't playing by the same rules as everyone else in the immediate aftermath of Jordan, and as such no one seemed to notice or care that Floyd was having no success. At any rate, it remains today the single most analogous situation to the Clippers own sad state of affairs with MDsr - and obviously patience was not a virtue in Chicago, where the Bulls never came close to competing under Floyd, but made the playoffs a couple of seasons later under Scott Skiles.
Now, just because it's never happened before doesn't mean it can't happen. And just because everybody else would fire their coach in this situation, doesn't make it right. As my dear sainted mother might ask, if all the other franchises were jumping off the Empire State Building, would you do it too?
But, for the record, if Mike Dunleavy Sr. returns as the coach of the Clippers after winning a combined 42 games in the last two seasons, it will be only the second time in the history of the NBA that it was happened on a team beyond it's first five years of existence. The fact that Dunleavy is also the GM, has been at the helm for six seasons, and has the team trending in the wrong direction the last three (47 wins to 42 to 23 to 19) are just a few more of the reasons that the conventional wisdom would say that he should be wearing a headset for TNT next season.
But no one has ever accused the Clippers of being conventional. Or wise, for that matter.
76 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Par for the course
It’s the Clippers, SP. Nothing to see here. Just move on.
With a wave of the hand...
These aren’t the Clippers you are looking for…
Move along….
Maybe MDsr is using some jedi mind trick on Sterling? Could happen…
Do or do not. There is no try.
Good post, CS (SP?)
I appreciate the historical precedent arguments, although I don’t really understand why you think he should be fired, other than what you previously said, which is that you believe he has lost the team.
For me, however, the situation with MDSr can be analyzed objectively, and several criteria should form part of the analysis: (1) his coaching skills, including (i) game day x’s and o’s coaching; (ii) his player motivational skills and (iii) w-l record; and (2) his GM skills, including (i) his relationship with and reputation among other GMs around the league; (ii) analysis of the deals he has made over the years; (iii) his relationship with the players and the owner; and (iv) w-l record.
I’ve analyzed all of these positions in literally hundreds of posts over the past year and a half, and in my view there is only one conclusion. I am not a reactive person, I don’t hate the guy, and I actually feel a bit sorry for him, but I frankly do not believe that the issue is anywhere near a close one.
Wasn't the point of this post...
It’s obviously much harder to argue empirically that he is a ‘good’ or ‘bad’ coach. It gets much more subjective clearly. I have always thought he was a pretty terrible coach of offensive basketball – he seems to have little or no feel for the flow of a game. He’s a bright man and a very hard worker, so he can break down film and design defensive schemes – and the improvement in team defense his first three seasons in LA was undeniable. Some aspects of NBA coaching are science and some are art – he’s OK to good at the science part – he stinks at the art.
But the funny thing is, there’s no need to get into the nitty gritty details – he made the decision easy by losing the team. The question of whether to fire him as the coach or as the GM is simple as well. It’s untenable to have him looking over a new coach’s shoulder, and he’s the coach who lost the team. So the only logical conclusion is that he has to be gone completely. Have him clear out his desk, and escort him from the training center.
But it’s obviously not happening.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 21, 2009 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Good points all
I think the jury’s still out – expect the unexpected as always with this team
I'm frankly just bored with Dunleavy
I think he is an ok coach and GM. There is no guarantee that the Clips can do better.
But during a year when many coaches were fired prematurely, Sr. was the exception, holding on to his job when it is clear that things will not change with him at the helm. The team is clearly headed in the wrong direction.
And I’m sick of seeing the same plays over and over and over.
The MDSr. era has run it’s course.
F-Elton!
It's like watching the WWF, I'm waiting for Eddie Jordon to come out of the stands and nail Dunleavy with a steel chair
Clippers basketball, Where EVERYTHING nonconventional can happen
Post of the year
haha that’d be so awesome.
But instead, the Kings are going to hire Jordan because you know…they’re not complete idiots.
Welcome back Steve
Belated, I know. I’m pretty surprised I haven’t been contacted by the Clips yet. Last year they were all over me before the season ended to renew. That was already a hard sell. But with nothing happening (no new coach) I guess they know what my answer is.
Dunleavy was/is a decent coach but he has lost this team. It’s hard not to think any success they have starting next season will be precariously temporary. When things get tough won’t the players just go back to playing halfheartedly as MDSr screams every single thing he wants done for 40+ minutes per game?
Can Dunleavy really change his coaching style and system to best use the talent he’s put together?
The NBA = Where Amazing Happens
The Clippers = Where Nothing Happens
I posted all the Dunleavy stats earlier this year. In fact he only compares to Wes
Unseld as a coach that kept his job over six seasons with such a losing record. Without checking again, he’s about 105 games below 500 for his six years. Seriously, he is one bad coach. If it wasn’t for poor Wes, he would be the Worst Coach In the History of the NBA.
Both the six year record and the two year record are dismal...
And each has only one analogous precedent – Unseld for the long term, Floyd for the short term.
To me, the two year case is more compelling. In the longer term, you have to consider that in the first three seasons he took a 27 win team into a seventh game in the Conference Semis – hard to complain much in those first three. Unseld on the other hand won fewer games almost every game he remained at the helm, which is pretty mind boggling.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 21, 2009 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't understand Sterling...
He finally spends money (he used to spend just enough to be over the minimum) but he keeps a terrible coach/GM to manage what he acquires. We may not be able to measure his ability as a coach, but we can certainly measure his actions as a GM.
Trading for Randolph was a terrible move. I know he scores a lot, but amazingly he only hits easy buckets or buckets that don’t matter. Dunleavy’s inability to get Elton Brand to re-sign should have tipped us off to his lack of artful negotiation skills. Camby would have been a nice piece but he was really only brought in to try to save Dunleavy’s job. He’s not a long term player and this is a rebuilding team. Coaches in all sports do this. They try to find a way to win extra games in the current season, at the expense of salary cap space, real development and a future, all so they can be re-signed or retained.
Still, the Clippers won 19 games. When Dunleavy didn’t banish Zach Randolph after he punched Louis Amundson and was arrested for a DUI, you could tell he didn’t care about sending messages or building a winning attitude. If Randolph could help him win 2 more games than he had any business winning, he was gonna play him. And even though he won 19 games, his plan has worked. Donald Sterling apparently thinks a 60 million dollar payroll and 19 wins is a good start for MDsr as GM/coach.
"Trading for Randolph was a terrible move. I know he scores a lot, but amazingly he only hits easy buckets or buckets that don’t matter. "
Um, what?
SP started off his post by saying that he, “[doesn’t] like to make broad statements without backing them up.” Care to try it?
by Michael White on Apr 22, 2009 7:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Its another inexplicable case
of people suggesting that Marcus Camby is better than Zach Randolph. I wish more Clippers happened to only hit easy buckets …we might have won some more games.
So maybe you could argue that trading for ZBO was a bad move financially. I disagree. We used our money on a power forward, who is admittedly overpaid. But he plays a position that we absolutely needed, and he is our best scorer. We gave away nothing of value to get Randolph. On top of that, he is one season away from becoming an expiring contract. We werent gonna get Dirk Nowitzki or some other elite power forward, we just didnt have the pieces to make that happen. Even if we draft Blake Griffin and he turns out to be a legitimate power forward, its gonna take a year or two before he ready to be a serious contributor.
Yes, Zbo can
put the ball in the hole. But there are a number of reasons discussed ad nauseum why trading for him was not beneficial for the Clippers (and a desperate move by MDSr).
To "make a statment and then back it up"...
According to basketball-reference.com, Marcus Camby has a 5.2 win share (it’s what it sounds like) while Zach Randolph with the Clippers, playing the same amount of games in LA as Camby (62), would only have a 3.6 win share. So suggesting that Camby is better than Randolph is not only explicable but already has been explained.
Win Shares
Thanks for pointing to win shares. I had never heard of it for basketball but I’m somewhat familiar with it for baseball. A few things though, it looks like your leaping to too many conclusions. Obviously to take Randolph’s actual win shares (for 50 games) you extrapolated the results to make it to 62. Makes sense I guess, but you’re obviously assuming the exact same rate of production for those remaining periods, which may or may not be true.
Also, its a bit difficult to recreate the work here, so if you could show your work I would appreciate it (I am not being sarcastic, I’m rather curious.) When I looked up the definition, it uses defensive rating as a key driver. So I scrolled up to defensive rating in the glossary. It then pointed me to a book written by Dean Oliver. So since I didn’t read a book in the last 45 minutes, I ended my quest to re-create the win shares.
My suspicion to the weakness in the win shares (yes I am looking for weaknesses because my eyes tell me Randolph is better than Camby) is that it is subjective— because, well, how can a defensive metric not be subjective. Johnnyoc21 made this argument in another thread and I’ll repeat it here. Camby lacks a post game, settles for way too many jumpers and his perceived defensive strength is really limited to help defense— just an aptitude to swat point guards driving to the rack. His iso defense is average at best—- allegorically I watched Lamarcus Aldridge back him down from the top of the key for the easy lay in, he tried that later against Kaman and Kaman didn’t budge. Plus Camby has this reputation for being such a hard worker and a team guy. Again as previously mentioned, Camby bitched for 2 months straight after being dealt to the Clips. Plus, can you imagine what the reaction would have been around here if Randolph missed a half dozen games because of earaches and headaches?
by Michael White on Apr 22, 2009 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually...
I took it from the 39 games with the Clippers and didn’t include the 11 with New York. I felt is was probably more accurate this way since the Knicks don’t have a Kaman or Camby type who might take “big-man stats” away from Randolph (like defensive rebounds). Also, I’m comparing him to a guy who played all of his games for LAC so it just seemed like it’d be closer to truly accurate.
My math seems to be slightly off after double checking but now it looks worse than 3.6. What I did was take Camby’s total games played (62) and divided Randolph’s LAC games played (39) by it (39 / 62 = .63). Then assumed that if 39 is 63% of 62 then Randolph’s win shares (2.2 with the Clips) would also be 63% of Camby’s total WS. 3.3 would be 63% of Camby’s 5.2, 1.1 lower than Randolph’s actual WS number.
Then to find Randolph’s actual extrapolated number I divided the difference between the two players’ total games with LAC (23) and found out what percentage 23 of 39 is (23 / 39 = .59). To get 39 to 62 you must add 23 (or 59% of 39); so to get 2.2 to a comparable number at 62 games, I added 59% of 2.2 (2.2 X .59 = 1.3). 1.3 + 2.2 = 3.5.
I know it’s a lot harder to do accurate win shares with basketball, and the difference is kind of slight (although the 1.5 WS difference is almost 10% of LAC’s 19 wins) but I was trying to make the point to “johnnyoc21” that it’s not ridiculous to make the argument that Camby is as or more important to winning than Randolph.
But what I really meant was...
3.3 is 1.1 higher than Randolph’s actual total… I’m blaming this on lack of sleep.
Good discussion...
Win share as well as Win Score (Dave Berri’s metric, see Wages of Wins journal) would both argue that Camby is ‘better’ (more productive, more valuable, whatever) than Randolph. Many other metrics would argue the opposite of course.
Camby’s defense is definitely overrated. He’s all about weak side blocks, but can’t be bothered to show on a pick and roll, which happens about 10 times more frequently in an NBA game. Having said that, those weak side blocks and his rebounding are nothing to sneeze at – they have value. And he was incredibly professional and motivated for about 3 months of the season. But even he got burnt out by this terrible season.
As for the earaches and headaches – the dude’s eardrum ruptured. I don’t characterize that one as malingering.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 22, 2009 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions
You know what...
I take it back about him not scoring points when it matters. However, I do still believe he’s not worth 14 million dollars. For 14 mil (or 16 and 17.5 million which he’s getting the next two years), he has got to do more than 20/10 with barely any blocks. It’s also never a good thing when a team doesn’t have cap flexibility. Otherwise what you get is what the Celtics are realizing now: everyone has to be Lou Gehrig or the team falls apart. We have no money to fill holes.
New York took Thomas and Mobley for the same reason we should have kept them, cap flexibility. LAC will lose 2 to 5 mil off their cap number this off-season. Then what? Randolph came to us in one big 14 – 17 million dollar chunk while Thomas and Mobley were a more manageable two chunks with relatively justifiable contracts that were as long or shorter than Randolph’s. Another piece of paper in the mile high incompetence-report on Mike Dunleavy.
I do understand Sterling
It’s very simple. The team is in the dumper. There’s no easy fix. So DTS is reverting to his old ways. There’s a lot of money to be made in the NBA with a bad team. For home games, the ticket sales will be terrific for a lot of games – Lakers, Cleveland, Boston, etc. And many of the strong NBA teams have strong home ticket sales, even when the Clips come to town – so he’s OK there. There are some weak areas, but the Clips have always kept their operating costs low (remember what they were paying Elgin?!).
The DTS plan is to not spend any more money, play out the current hand – and when MDSr’s contract expires – examine his options then.
Of course that’s a fairly grim scenario for us readers of this excellent board.
Deal with it.
You're probably right
The supposed business cases that project losses if MDsr remains are just that – projections. MDsr is being paid real money, and there would be real replacement costs associated with that.
MDsr’s remaining contract money is a little less than the MLE. So, while it seems like we shouldn’t have to choose, and no normal NBA team would make it an either or, just as an intellectual exercise ask yourself if you’d rather be rid of MDsr, or add a player at the MLE – say Trevor Ariza.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 22, 2009 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm saying...
If it’s your $5M, and it’s the only $5M you’re sinking into the team this season, does it go to a new coach, or a new player?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 22, 2009 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions
New coach
A solid wing defender like Ariza would be difficult to pass up. But I still think this roster can be worked with.
Signing a player goes against the cap and limits what a team can do over the next years.
F-Elton!
*(47 wins to 40 to 23 to 19)
Don’t give him so much credit Steve! LOL
'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!
by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Apr 21, 2009 11:20 PM PDT reply actions
I should be in a mental institution for continuing to root for this team...
I must have some sort of mental illness to take this many punishments. I bet all us Clippers fans are more stressed out about Clippers than Donald Tokowitz.
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
Awesome job w/ your research Steve
I’m not sure if they are all accurate but I’ll take your word for it. U da man!
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
Oh, they're accurate
How dare you suggest otherwise!
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 22, 2009 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions
lol, over sensitive today are we?
poke poke poke…
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
pretty impressive text Steve
congrats, I enjoyed the read until the end.
loved the research about other coaches and teams. difficult to argue with that.
hugs from Italy
http://sixers4guidos.wordpress.com/
by Ricky - Sixers4guidos on Apr 22, 2009 9:48 AM PDT reply actions
Interesting... but valid?
I’m not a stat guy in general, but I’m not sure I’m buying these stats in particular. Number of consecutive losing years, total losses… what meaning does that stuff really have?
Did a couple of losing seasons with an aging team that was too-slowly torn apart diminish Rick Adelman’s coaching ability in Sacramento? No. Then why did he get fired? Because management effed up. They hired another guy who couldn’t win with that lumpy bunch either, now their on to another guy.
Did Tom Coughlin “lose” his (football) team in 2006-7. Yes. Did he need to change his approach? Yes, and he did. And what happened next? He won a Superbowl in 2007-8 with almost the exact same team.
Did Mike Dunleavy single-handedly change the culture of the L.A. Clippers in the early part of this century? Yes. Did he make Donald Sterling spend money, where no money was spent before. Yes. Does that mean something. Yes.
Should Mike Dunleavy be fired as coach? I’m not sure. I can still see both sides of the argument. I think it would be wise for everyone to carefully and often revisit both points of view.
And for a pretty good picture of the other side (and in case you missed it) there was this article by Ramona Shelburne (previously posted by bestclipfan): http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_12161804.
One problem...
“Did a couple of losing seasons with an aging team that was too-slowly torn apart diminish Rick Adelman’s coaching ability in Sacramento?” Adelman won 50 and 44 games his final two seasons in Sacramento before being fired. So not only did he not have “a couple of losing seasons” he did not have one. I’m honestly looking for an example of a team that stuck with a coach and turned it around. I’d love to have some optimism. So find me one. Or even one where a coach that looked ‘bad’ was fired and then went somewhere else and turned out to be good. Adelman is your counter-example? Seriously? The guy had a winning record in 13 of 15 full seasons as an NBA head coach when Sacto canned him. Even taking into account loaded teams with the Lakers and Blazers, MDsr’s got 7 winning seasons in 16 years as a head coach, and 1 winning season out of 6 with the Clippers. It’s just not the same thing.
The point of my post was to illustrate how historically bad the Clippers have been these two seasons. 42 wins in 164 games. That’s losing almost three fourths of the time. Adelman won 94 his last two seasons in Sacto! 94>42.
As for Coughlin, does MDsr strike you as someone who is willing to “change his approach”? He does not strike me that way.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 22, 2009 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
"I’m honestly looking for an example of a team that stuck with a coach and turned it around."
Well if you’re open to examples from other sports, you don’t have to go back too far in baseball to find an example. Joe Maddon became the manager of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays in 2006 and they recorded a 61-101 record (losing 100 games in baseball is pretty rough) and in 2007 finished with a 66-96 record. They improved to be sure, but not much. As I’m sure you know in 2008 they broke through with a 97-65 record and a World Series apperance.
To throw out some qualifiers, yes they did not give Maddon as long as they’ve given Dunleavy, but I believe your post above SP focused on MDSr’s last 2 years and not before. Plus, you really can’t include Tampa as an expansion team any longer as this is their 11th season in the league.
by Michael White on Apr 22, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Big differences here, I'm afraid
Tampa Bay does not have a large budget, but given that Maddon turned around a perennial losing team in three years.
Good example...
Winning percentages in Baseball don’t reach the extremes they do in basketball… and the Rays records in 06 and 07 were the worst in the AL, so that’s as bad as it gets over a two year period.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 22, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Another possible example (though a bit different)
Jim Leyland was the manager for the Pittsburgh Pirates for 11 years. After winning the division in 1990, 91, and 92, the team struggled for the next four years finishing 5th, 3rd, 5th and 5th. He is then fired by the Pirates. He takes a job with the Florida Marlins the next year (1997) and they win the World Series. The Pirates haven’t had a winning season since Leyland. Leyland also went on to Detroit and returned to the World Series in 2006.
by Michael White on Apr 22, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Two things...
But do we agree that Adelman should not have been fired? They thought he had “lost” the team… and their record definitely slipped from prior years. But doesn’t RA getting fired after having two fairly decent seasons further damn your statistical analysis? And isn’t this analysis a bit of a cart/horse thing? Wasn’t it really designed to illustrate why Dun should be fired? Inherent in that premise, isn’t there a lack of objectivity on your part, CS? I usually find your positions scrupulously objective and I don’t here. It wonder if isn’t a bit of Agit-Prop… maybe not as annoying as the “FireDunleavy” guys, but slanted nonetheless.
Tom Coughlin was absolutely the last guy you’d ever think would be able to “change his approach”. Ironically, I was one of many Giant fans who thought he should be fired. And I was totally and completely wrong.
How can we "agree" that Adelman shouldn't have been fired
We are not privy to the interactions between coach and owners and the other issues surrounding his tenure there. There are myriad reasons why coaching situations do not work out. No one questions Adelman’s coaching skills.
it would be interesting to learn the Maloofs’ opinion on that.
I agree with you that the “lost the team” argument, standing alone, wouldn’t be my sole reason for firing a coach. Here, however, there are myriad additional reasons.
Hmmm...
1) Successful coaches get fired all the time. Rick Carlisle had back to back 50 win seasons in Detroit before being ousted. I’ve continually pointed out the counter-argument, put forth by Heisler among others, that continuity is a virtue in and of itself. Clearly many teams have acted rashly in the past – but as Jax points out, there are LOTS of factors. Maybe the coach just doesn’t get along with anyone. Happily for the Clippers, the coach and the GM are very close, so they don’t have any problem there.
2) I’m not sure I see where my objectivity is lacking on this. I’m pointing out historical facts. Do I have a position? Well, duh, yes of course I do. But facts is facts. Retaining Dunleavy may work out great – I’ve many times sung his praises in the past for what he has done for this franchise. I’m not going to go Rush Limbaugh on this – I don’t hope he fails. I hope he succeeds if in fact he remains the coach. But realize – if it happens, if the Clippers make the playoffs under Dunleavy after suffering through these two seasons, it will be the second time in NBA history it has ever happened, and the first time for a non-expansion team. So you’re betting on something that has never happened before. Never.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 22, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
If his plans will hurt the team in the long run
then I do hope he fails. His failure may insure the success of the team.
F-Elton!
Ah...
Okay, maybe I’m being a little prickly about all this. I think this particular post just rubbed me the wrong way. The agit-prop comment I made and criticizing CS’s objectivity seem, in review, a little… unfair.
But it’s like everyone on board this crazy ship is suddenly running to one side, and the boat is leaning way way over, threatening to capsize… but is that the best way to get rid of the Captain we no longer believe in, to upend the vessel? And could that be Clipper Steve over there standing on the rail next to the FireDunleavy guy, shouting about historical precedent and building an elaborate statistical argument proving his point, when he has to know how really complex the political situation is… that if you fire the Captain there is no one left to steer the boat but Admiral Sterling, who is blind and foolish and we cannot trust at all and… I don’t think he even like boats!
All this and there’s poor brilliant Zhiv wandering around talking to himself, no longer staring out at the bright horizon but brooding over the black depths.
This is crazy. Advocating a “fire Dunleavy at any cost” paradigm is a political nightmare. You guys want us to sail into the Bermuda triangle with our spinnaker unfurled, a broken rudder, and an incompetent at the helm. The storm is approaching. The waves are breaking over the bow. I hear the rocks gathering on the shore… and they’re big… and… they’re REALLY big!
Okay, obviously I get a little carried away, but I hope I’ve made my point.
Pirates!
Avast!
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 22, 2009 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Avast
TheblackdepthstheyhauntmeandtheclippersaredonemantheresjustnomoretosaytheyregoingtomessupanotherdraftpickandsomethingwillhappentogordonanditsgoingtobemuchmuchworsenextyearbarondaviswilljustgetfatterandzachrandolphwilltakegunsdrivingdrunktostripclubsandhispoorbentleyisgoingtogetsmashedupnotfunnyatallwiththedeadangelguythedepthsthedepthstheblacknessyesthelivingstonpickisdefensiblebutitwasstillWRONGandharrisisgoodreallygoodanallstarandkorolevisinsiberiablackdepthstherethatsforsureandwhatiskamandoingrightnowonaboatincaboorshootingthingsinmichiganorgettingreadytogobacktogermanybutdunleavyistherealmegalomaniachesanAHABtakingusfarbeyondlandfarbeyondtheknownheseeksoutthedepthstheblacknessthewhitenessdunleavywantsthewhaleandthisisntthepequoditsthegoodshipsterlingitstheclippersjakenothingtoseeherejustmoveon
Something like that?
by citizen zhiv on Apr 23, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Try again
Little margin problem. How’s this look?
Theblackdepthstheyhauntmeandtheclippersaredonemantheresjustnomoretosay
theyregoingtomessupanotherdraftpickandsomethingwillhappentogordonandits
goingtobemuchmuchworsenextyearbarondaviswilljustgetfatterandzachrandolph
willtakegunsdrivingdrunktostripclubsandhispoorbentleyisgoingtogetsmashed
upnotfunnyatallwiththedeadangelguythedepthsthedepthstheblacknessyesthe
livingstonpickisdefensiblebutitwasstillWRONGandharrisisgoodreallygoodan
allstarandkorolevisinsiberiablackdepthstherethatsforsureandwhatiskaman
doingrightnowonaboatincaboorshootingthingsinmichiganorgettingreadytogo
backtogermanybutdunleavyistherealmegalomaniachesanAHABtakingusfar
beyondlandfarbeyondtheknownheseeksoutthedepthstheblacknessthe
whitenessdunleavywantsthewhaleandthisisntthepequoditsthegoodship
sterlingitstheclippersjakenothingtoseeherejustmoveon
by citizen zhiv on Apr 23, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
It must have been really difficult in Ancient Rome to read Latin--- without the spacing between words and all.
by Michael White on Apr 23, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions
yea...
my eyes started bleeding trying to read Zhiv’s comment.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 24, 2009 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions
What ever happened to Firedunleavy.com
he disappeared about the time people started turning against Dunleavy. Although I saw him in the comments section on clipperblog
In Gordon we trust
I think it might be the same thing that happened to RickK.
Interesting they’re both not here anymore. Kind of makes me look at this site a little differntly.
FDC
As jax says, FDC got run off. I asked him to support his positions, he preferred not to, he stopped coming around. FWIW, he wasn’t banned – just berated.
RickK was never a regular. In fact, he’s posted once – his STH fanpost. But he never commented here, before or since. Obviously, if he’s out there lurking we’d love to have him become a more active citizen.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 28, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok
Rick Adelman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike Dunleavy
Ramona’s article is not very interesting. I believe SP alluded to that above.
Okay....
Adelman better than Dunleavy. Probably true but not at all my point.
And why is Ramona’s article not interesting? Don’t get that. SP did link to it. I missed it because he dismissed it out of hand and then linked to it in a weird three piece thingy.
Hmm
Adelman is a great coach, who has won everywhere he has gone. MDSr, not so much.
Ramona’s article isn’t very interesting because the argument that the problems are all due to injuries and that we should continue to wait to see if MDSr can produce, without mentioning, much less analyzing, the plethora of other issues surrounding his reign as coach / GM, isn’t much of an argument.
That wasn't ALL her argument...
She pinned a good part of her angle on the fact that Dunleavy’s arrival revived a terrible, losing franchise and convinced ownership to change their ways for the better.
That’s my central point in all this… and it’s a fairly ungainly and cautious argument I admit. If there were anyone in the front office whom I thought was capable of identifying and hiring a new GM/coach, I might agree with everyone who’s screaming about firing Mike Dunleavy. But there’s not. The combination of Donald Sterling and Andy Roeser is woeful… and rather dangerous concerning basketball matters. Mike Dunleavy was an imperfect, but solid and effective coach, and something better than that as a GM.
I keep asking myself, should the existing Clippers management replace Mike Dunleavy with someone else… and the answer I keep hearing back is, “No.” It’s my opinion. It’s what my head says… and maybe the voice is wrong, but I’ve yet to hear an argument, including CS’s current one, that leads me firmly in another direction.
I’ll also amend the former, “Adelman better than Dunleavy. Probably true.” And I won’t bother mentioning that Adelman brought the Kings exactly as far as Dunleavy brought Trailblazers… to the Western Conference Finals… and no farther… er… further?
I'm not screaming
I just continuously put forth cold hard facts. And he’s not a solid or effective coach in any respect. And he’s a horrible GM. Just search through my posts for the details.
Adelman is “probably” better than Dunleavy? Um, ok.
I crossed out the probably. I agree.
But I’m not buying that “cold hard facts” stuff. You deal in opinions just like the rest of us. Your opinions are good too, often delivered brusquely, but don’t confuse them with facts.
You're also not a "screamer"...
You’re the opposite, a determined single-minded whisperer. You are, also, a bomb-thrower, of course. But the screaming was both hyperbole and aimed at others.
Thanks - and you're right - they are opinions, hopefully supported by facts
I throw bombs sometimes just to shake things up.
The Bill Fitch case
If its a question of precedent, he’s the only guy on the list who, like MDSr, has won coach of the year.
None of those guys has a GM of the Year though, even by proxy.
"So what are the odds that the Clippers can compete next season given their limited flexibility? Slim and none."
Reading between the lines
John R hearts MDSr!!!
Dunleavy sucks!!
Im a long time season ticket holder and i cant stand it anymore. If Dumbleavy is still there after the off season I wont be. Im tired of him getting up and waving his finger with no results. There no reason with the like up we had last season we couldnt have went atleast 21-61 is 25% too much to ask. while youre at it do something with Kamen I saw him miss 3 lay ups on the same offensive trip down the court. . How come everytime someone gets a huge contract they stop trying?
one thing i dont understand is why people blame coaches for losing seasons. No matter who the coach is, if the players are hurt, or cant make shots, the team is going to lose, whether you have the best or worst coach. Clippers just need to start playing better and stop complaining about dunleavy. He cant make the shots for em.
Great post CS
Way to do that research.
Though really, all the evidence we need is on the court. Those who have seen this team play this year and still think Dunleavy should be coach are so hopeless that those stats won’t help them either.
It is what it is. At some point, you can only say so much to someone who insists that the stop sign is blue, the sky is green and grass is purple.
Great post...
That was some good research. As if we needed another reason to get Dunleavy fired, we have some concrete facts. As you point out, though, the Clippers are not conventional. While other franchises value winning, the Clippers don’t care. This franchise has no commitment to being successful, only to filling DTS already fat wallet.
"If a Clippers fan is reading a newspaper in his living room and the ceiling falls on him, he'll just shrug and move to another room." -Bill Simmons
by WestsideBrandon on Apr 22, 2009 4:37 PM PDT reply actions
great job
once again another well researched post. if dunleavy wasn’t so full of himself he should do what pat riley did in miami last season resign as coach
Doubt it
we’ll probably get Isiah Thomas since he’s coaching FIU for free.
He’ll be a lame duck coach next summer so times will be tough.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 24, 2009 12:27 AM PDT up reply actions

by 









