NBA Centers - Supply and Demand
Watching the playoffs this week, I couldn't help thinking about Chris Kaman's contract extension. You may recall that when Kaman and his agent were negotiating his extension, the comparable contracts they pointed to were those of Samuel Dalembert and Tyson Chandler. In fact, Kaman's 5 year, $52.5M extension ended up being a little south (one year shorter and slightly less per year) of those for Dalembert and Chandler, who each got 6 years in the neighborhood of $66M.
Since Kaman signed the extension, the pendulum has been swinging wildly on his value. During the final season of his rookie deal, with the extension signed but not yet in effect, it looked like a monumental mistake, as Mr. Flippy pirouetted through a regressive season of 45% shooting, barely 10 points per game and more missed bunnies than a blind greyhound. Then, for the first three months of the new contract, it looked like a brilliant maneuver to lock him up on the cheap, as Kaman 2.0 emerged with rebounding and blocked shot averages among the top three in the NBA. And then the injury bug bit, possibly accompanied by his pal the apathy spider, and once again the Clippers center looks overpaid.
This question is pertinent to the Clippers off-season - what is the perception of Kaman's contract in the NBA marketplace? If other GM's (at least a few) believe that Kaman is worth the 3 years and $34M left on his extension, then the Clippers may be able to get something close to equal value in trade for a player at a position where they happen to have a logjam. If not, the pickings will be slim.
When you're dealing with NBA centers, you really have to remember the laws of supply and demand. That's where Dalembert and Chandler come in. As a rule of thumb, NBA centers get 8 figures per year, provided they have a pulse. Now, I realize that I'm being a little unfair to Chandler, who has been hurt (more on that later), but he's been a non-factor in the Hornets' two embarrassing losses to the Nuggets, averaging 6.5 points and 8 rebounds in 31 minutes per game. Dalembert, on the other hand, has barely played against Dwight Howard and the Magic, the Sixers instead going with 36 year old Theo Ratliff, who makes the NBA minimum. (Talk about pendulum swings - Ratliff went from being one of the most overpaid players in the league to one of the most underpaid.) Think about that - you have a 27 year old center who you owe $27.5M over the next two years, and instead you're playing a 36 year old on a one year minimum deal during the playoffs. Ratliff has played 47 minutes in the series to Dalembert's 26. Ouch.
But while Chandler and Dalembert look wildly overpaid in hindsight, it's really just supply and demand. There are not enough quality NBA centers for 30 teams, and consequently almost anyone who shows even reasonable potential gets a nice big massive ridiculous contract. Take a look at the list of NBA centers who played over 700 minutes this season (700 being an arbitrary number that was low enough to get DeAndre Jordan and Chris Kaman to show up). The list is imperfect - it's missing several players who are essentially centers, but who are not listed as such on Basketball Reference (including for instance Marcus Camby). But it's a good starting point.
Of the 34 names on the list:
- 11 of them are on their rookie contracts and have yet to sign an extension, meaning that their salary was mandated by the CBA if they were first round picks, and was even less if they were not a first round pick. When they sign a new contract, they'll no doubt join the ranks of the wildly overpaid.
- 3 of them (Shaq, Yao and Dwight Howard) are maximum-type contracts (I say maximum-type because strictly speaking Shaq is allowed to make more than $20M, but it ain't chicken feed). Of the pseudo-center missing from the list, Jermaine O'Neal and Tim Duncan fall into this category as well.
- 9 of them make $9M per year or more, but less than the maximum. This is Kaman's peer group. It includes the aforementioned Chandler and Dalembert, and a couple of recently extended youngsters like the Andrew B's (Bogut and Bynum). Emeka Okafor, Nene, Al Jefferson and Eddy Curry are all in this category as well. Of this group, Biedrins looks like he might be a bargain at 6/$54M, and of course Nene defied the odds with a huge season, though at the time he signed his deal it looked like one of the worst of the bunch.
- 10 more make between $3M per year and $8M per year. I guess these would qualify as your bargains, and the names include such luminaries as Dan Gazuric ($6.2M this season), DeSagana Diop ($6M) and Zaza Pachulia ($4M). Pachulia and Joel Pzrybilla (a 15.4 PER for a mere $6.4M this season) are the real bargains, such as they are. You could put a few more names like Kwame Brown, Brendan Haywood and Etan Thomas into this group.
- That leaves one veteran NBA center who played more than 700 minutes while making less than $3M this season - Jamaal Magloire. Of course Magloire (like Theo Ratliff and Dikembe Mutumbo and Antoino McDyess and Juwan Howard) falls into a special category of players that were once well paid (or wildly overpaid) who are now doing penance on a veteran's minimum contract. Magloire and all of those other names are former all stars, if you can believe that.
Given that landscape, it's hard to argue that Chris Kaman is overpaid based on his on court productivity. If these are the going rates for seven footers, then seven footers with Kaman's skillset are surely worth at least what the Clippers are paying Mr. Flippy.
But what about those pesky injuries? No one is going to trade for a center who is so injury-prone when he's is still owed $34M, are they?
Again I say, supply and demand.
If you are looking for the supply of skilled seven footers who AREN'T injury prone, the list just got a lot smaller.
Go down the list again (it's sorted in PER order to provide a level set of quality). Yao Ming, Andrew Bynum, Greg Oden, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Andrew Bogut, Nenad Krstic, Tyson Chandler and of course Nene who is not on the list - all just as 'injury-prone' as Kaman, if not more so. And Andris Biedrins is troublingly close to the category at this point as well. The only quality veteran centers in the NBA who could reasonably be called 'durable' are Dwight Howard and Shaq, and let's face it, those guys are in their own category physically. The simple fact of the matter is, big guys get hurt. Their bodies (especially their feet and ankles) take a pounding, and they break down. In fact, over the course of his 6 year career, Kaman has been arguably above average in durability for a center, appearing in over 64 games a season on average. Hell, Marcus Camby gets $2M in bonuses just for making it to 65.
Might his recent injury woes be troubling to a team considering trading for him? Of course it could be an issue. But it's not as if he's undergone major surgery. If Denver was willing to offer Nene a contract of 6/$60M contract in the summer of 2006, following a season in which he missed 81 of the 82 games because of a torn ACL, it's not unreasonable to think that some teams will be undaunted by the ouchie on Kaman's foot.
Don't forget what a tantalizing prospect Chris Kaman is (as if the Citizens of Clips Nation could). Many of the contracts we've been looking at were signed based on potential alone. Some of these guys, particularly Dalembert and Chandler but also Biedrins and Erick Dampier and others, have no discernible skills on offense whatsoever. In sharp contrast, Kaman is the complete package on both ends of the floor, and has actually demonstrated results as opposed to just potential, if only for one injury-shortened season. The list of NBA players to have averaged 15 points, 10 rebounds and 2 blocked shots in any season in the last decade is short and illustrious.
- Shaquille O'Neal
- Tim Duncan
- Dwight Howard
- Yao Ming
- Kevin Garnett
- Elton Brand
- Jermaine O'Neal
- Chris Kaman
That's it. Seven all stars and Mr. Flippy.
Going through this exercise, I'm beginning to think maybe I don't want them to trade the guy. Maybe it's worth holding on to him and hoping that Kaman 2.0 re-appears in a relatively healthy season. But there's certainly no reason to hold a fire sale. The supply of NBA centers with Kaman's skillset is very low - demand should be high enough.
Last point. I lowered the minutes played on my search down to 700 to get DeAndre Jordan on the list. There he is, just behind Kaman himself, his PER of 14.1 only slightly worse than Kaman's 14.5 this season. DJ also happens to be the youngest and least experienced name on that list. Jordan is locked up at a bargain price for two more seasons, but given the same supply and demand rules we've been discussing, someone will offer him a big contract in 2011 if he just continues to demonstrate some potential, maybe takes a couple of baby steps (if he improves significantly a la Bynum, it's an entirely different story). That would be the final year of Kaman's current contract, but it may not be too early to start thinking about the next log jam at the center position.
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Good post...
…and if you hadn’t said it, I would have: “Given everything, tell me why we want to trade this guy?” To my mind there’s a serious amount of upside left in Kamanland… his points and rebounds are always at least decent (though certainly frustrating to watch for what could be) but he’s probably better than top ten defensively as well.
If the Clips want to trade a big who’s got real value it should probably be Camby. The bigger question might be when… in the offseason or before the trade deadline? If you resign Brian Skinner, and DJ keeps developing, you’ve still got good size, strength, and depth at the center spot.
Logjam...sure...
but is it really a problem? I suppose, if everyone is healthy (DeAndre, Kaman and Camby), then yes, the Clippers have a logjam and a minutes problem. But as you point out, centers/big men getting hurt is all too common in the NBA, and is almost expected considering these guys size and agility and the rigors of the 82 game (plus) season.
At this point, I personally would not even consider trading Kaman unless I am blown away with a trade proposal. Afterall, if the Clippers DO trade Kaman away this summer, they will have Camby for next year ONLY, and then who….DeAndre? I don’t like the sound of that. All too many times did we see the Clippers trot out Brian Skinner at the center position this year and get abused on both ends of the floor.
As you point out, when healthy, Kaman is the total package. And I not yet willing to give up on him yet. And after Camby is either traded or leaves after next year, there is going to be a HUGE hole at the center position if Kaman is not here. And 7’ plus ambidextrous centers who are both a threat on offense and defense don’t grow on trees. Lets keep him around for one more year and see what we can get out of him.
Great post CS…er..I mean SP…
Do or do not. There is no try.
Logjam
It’s not a problem per se, and certainly wasn’t a problem this season given all the injuries. The question is, can you get something valuable for a trading chip where the team is, after all, relatively loaded. So the main thing is not to undervalue Kaman in a trade. I still think he’ll likely be shopped. But Camby’s expiring deal will have value right through the deadline, so if you don’t move Kaman you can always move Camby.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 23, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Excellent Post
I do agree with your sentiment at the end, that the Clippers should not trade Chris Kaman (even though I think they will.) I would deal Camby and keep Kaman.
Not that this post won’t foster enough conversation on its own (again kudos on that) but I would like to throw out another point. I wonder what this post tells you regarding drating Thabeet. Thabeet will almost certainly be available when the Clippers pick— and the point you make about supply and demand is a good one. There are not many 7 footers and they command huge contracts. Thabeet checks in at 7’3 and would be locked up on a rookie contract. If you wanted to deal Kaman, the logical move would be to draft Thabeet wouldn’t it? Just throwing it out there.
=He can block shots and rebound and he has eric dampiers offensive game. I might be a little execisve in saying that hes not much of an upgrade over DJ. poor mans tyson chandler ?
Thabeet
He’ll be better than Chandler I think, he’s definitely a better shot blocker. I think he could be another Mutumbo. He’s 7’3, he just needs to grab the garbage baskets near the basket and set screens.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 23, 2009 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I doubt it. Im defenitley not trying to diss chandlers game either but if this wanst such a weak draft he wouldnt be in the top 10.
He'd be top ten in any draft
Noah, Love, O’Bryant, Shelden Williams. Just a few of the craptacular C/PFs drafted. The one guy who slipped (Hibbert) actually looks solid, especially for where they got him.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 23, 2009 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Love
Is not crappy, but rather I meant that he isn’t all that impressive by the measurements etc. I think he’ll be a solid player (Brad Miller) for a long time.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 23, 2009 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I think I'd rather have Deandre Jordan
than Thabeet.
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
by means of athletiscm.
I just don’t know which one has a better bball IQ.
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
I say trade Kaman
I don’t know if I need another year of him shooting over 50% but having to watch everyone complain about the shots he misses.
"So what are the odds that the Clippers can compete next season given their limited flexibility? Slim and none."
What is it about him?
Although he did shoot 45% in 06-07 while missing a huge number of easy shots, he has shot over 50% a couple of times. But even when he’s shooting a high percentage, or grabbing a dozen rebounds, it just FEELS like he’s still missing shots he should make or dropping rebounds out of bounds. So if he’s shooting 53%, he should be shooting 60%. If he’s getting 12 rebounds, he should be getting 15. Evaluating him on what he actually does, he’s pretty damn good. But he should be better.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 23, 2009 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Feel
He misses a lot of shots around the baskets, because he TAKES a lot of shots around the basket. We could trade him for a center who can’t create his own shot. But I guess that was a big point of your post.
Then there is the fact that he is fouled a lot more frequently than they call it. So as soon as he is traded from the Clippers his productivity will go up again.
"So what are the odds that the Clippers can compete next season given their limited flexibility? Slim and none."
To put it another way
Just looking at Howard.
Howard had 6 or more turnovers 7 times this season. One out of 10 games he turns it over six times or more.
Howard had 8 games where he shot 40.0% or less this season. One out of 10 games he shoots 40% or below.
This is THE BEST young center in the game. I bet Magic fans don’t whine about him.
The problem isn’t Kaman. The problem is Clippers fans are afraid of success and hate expectations.
Let’s dump Kaman and Dunleavy, then when we fail, at least we will have excuses. We will be “rebuilding”. Clippers fans have reverse selective memory sometimes.
"So what are the odds that the Clippers can compete next season given their limited flexibility? Slim and none."
I say dump the coach
not because I think an new coach will automatically improve the team, but because I am bored to death with Clippers basketball. I can’t take another season of this, even if they were to win 40 games.
Since they do not possess the super-duper star that NBA champions reqire, and thus likely won’t contend for a ring, at least put an entertaining product on the court.
F-Elton!
Um, the problem isn't Clipper fans, it's Kaman
The fans are right. Not only is Kaman a soft center offensively as anyone can see, he simply doesn’t focus. In addition, he’s always hurt. You simply cannot count on him. I like Kaman, but not as my starting center. And not for the money he’s being paid. Get real.
Oh and it isn’t just the fans. Clipper management wants him gone too, in a big way.
MDSr’s demand that they resign Kaman long term turned out to be yet another in a string of bad GM calls.
Um, do you even read my posts?
I went to a lot of trouble, with lots of data and examples, to point out that Kaman is (a) not overpaid as compared to other NBA centers and (b) not particularly injury prone as compared to other NBA centers. And you came back with he’s always hurt and he makes too much money.
Care to support that position with something… anything?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 26, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Um, ok
I don’t want to argue. However, I will note the following.
First, I wasn’t responding to your post.
Second, I believe I’m entitled to my opinion .
Third, although I wasn’t responding to your post, I would disagree with your position that Kaman is not being paid too much because other centers with similar skills, etc., are being paid more than he is. I believe that he’s making far too much money for a supposed starting center that (a) cannot focus like he should; and (b) is injured alot. I dont’ tihink I’m alone in that sentiment. Regardless of the 700 minutes he played and the stats he produced while playing those 700 minutes. And regardless of what other centers are being paid. I’d rather use my money on a player I can trust to stay healthy and to focus.
Plus
What’s up with him not taking it strong to the hole and settling for jumpers now a days. He does’nt even block as well as before in his previous but hopefully its just working on his timing getting back from his injuriesssss.
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
previous *years
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
exactly
could’nt have said it better myself
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
I agree about trading Kaman
But not the reason – the guy is unreliable and injury-prone. Trade him while he still has some value for someone who can play.
Man you walked right into that one didn't you
Its a good thing I can always count on you.
"So what are the odds that the Clippers can compete next season given their limited flexibility? Slim and none."
Don't you have anything else to do?
I find it funny that you continue to tell the rest of us how wrong we are when you’ve been wrong all along.
Nice post
I definitely agree with you about CK. His injuries, though frustrating, have been relatively minor. His post game is terrific, and he truly commands a double team. Last year he showed that he has range from 10-15 feet, which makes him effective in the pick n roll/pop game. The area of his game that needs the most improvement is his recognizing the double team and making the right pass, but I would argue he is more than capable of developing that part of his game. Having a healthy Kaman and Randolph on the floor at the same time should help the Clippers get good shots in the half court on every possession, something they struggled with this season. Camby, who does a lot of things well and brings a lot to the table, just doesnt offer as much offensively (and he is getting older). Camby has value as a respected big guy, elite rebounder and shot blocker, and is an expiring contract. The Clippers have a great opportunity to move him this off season and help make the team better.
As far as Thabeet goes, I think with Jordan already on our bench, the Clips don’t really need him, but if the Clippers happen to fall in the lottery past Rubio, Griffin etc., there may be another team further down the draft board that wants him, which might give the Clips a nice trading piece.
Good research
With that info available, he looks like a good piece. If he can stay healthy.
Trading one of the centers for a solid wing may be wise.
F-Elton!
Pretty hopeful post
Maybeastartbutimnotgoingtoletitknockmeoutofmyclipression
hahahahaha
clipression… You coined a word!
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
Camby has to go
We need to shop him and see what we can get. We have up until the deadline to move him and he will be in high demand. I think its better if we trade him in the offseason, he could get old real fast over the summer or injured and then we have little to bargain with.
FA in 2010.
This just in
Sac Kings coach just fired….Dunleavy can get fired anytime.
well I think it was pretty obvious Kenny Nat wasnt staying in Sactown. not if they want to sell 2 more tickets next season.
Mondays
When I’m abruptly awaken by alarm on monday mornings (and most days) and struggle to get out of bed the thought (hope) that checking the news and praying that MDsr was fired gives me the energy to do what I have to.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 23, 2009 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions
WE DON'T WANT TO WALK DOWN THIS ROAD...
(At least not right now.)
Camby is one of three Clippers promising to get the guys together this summer and try to find a way to get the chemistry thing going so I don’t really like the idea of talking about trading him. I’d hate for him to start reading this blog and get offended with talk about offseason trades. He may just call the whole “getting the team together—rah-rah-rah” thing off. I know these are the Clippers we are rooting for, but I CANNOT watch another season as bad as this one. Anyone else get physically ill when you watch a real half-ass effort from your basketball team? I nauseous and I’m pretty irritable…I don’t like it and my gf doesn’t like it either.
Camby
I actually think we are doing him a favor. He gets traded to a better team so he can chase the ring, that team will have his bird rights and therefore would likely resign him even if everyone is over the cap. I won’t even add how cheap our ****ing owner is and would not resign him anyways. Oh, I guess I just did.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 23, 2009 7:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd prefer he were traded at the deadline...
not before. Besides, if we make the playoffs, we’ll need this guy and his rebounding…
LOL
Good one!
'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!
by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Apr 23, 2009 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions
:)
Watch out for Jim Morra!
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
Ship might have sailed...
Since Camby is almost certainly getting traded, it’s hard to see management letting go of Kaman. The only way I think both get traded is if we go big in the draft with (hopefully) Griffin or (not so hopefully) Thabeet. I like DeAndre a lot, but I don’t think Dunleavy is ready to roll with a 20 year old center when he desperately needs wins now to retain his job.
I would love to see a Kaman for Tayshaun Prince type trade, but that’s all pipe dreams. The rumored Kaman for Gerald Wallace trade might have been our best trade opportunity.
I can definitely see Camby OR Kaman getting traded, but not both.
Is this the same Kaman I watch on TV?
I know statistics are important, bla bla bla ….
But WE HAVE ALL watched him going up and down the court (to his favor, he´s real funny to watch). I think his play has to be more than enough to make a verdict on his contributions to the team. And I think we can agree that he hasn´t contributed to win many games in these past seasons, either on the court or in the IL.
Comparing him to Dwight Howard?? Auchhh…. I haven´t seen Kaman dominate a game in his career. Being a 7 feet center with skills, that´s a big accomplishment. Oh, he dominated against Angola in the Olympics. Yeah, have memory, he played in the Olympics for a country he hardly knew, after being injured the previous season. Another solid decision by our center, that payed off this season.
So, he´s thick as they come and shows he doesn´t care about the Clippers. Really, why do you want him so badly around here, when you can get something useful for him?
lol
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
I remember seeing at CTB
whether we should trade Amare for Kaman straight up this season and a lot of people hated the idea. Its not like the Suns would accept though but still…
I guess either you love Kaman or you hate him.
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
If Howard has Chris Kamans Post game and range he would probably be the best player in the league...
Howard does not need a post game
because he can just over power people ;-)
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
and if Kaman ever
finished strongly to the hoop and didn’t get injured often like D Howard he would be the best Center in the league.
In Gordon we trust
I wish
but Kaman doesn’t look like he has a good work ethic. He probably does the least amount of work acceptable during work outs which could explain why he gets injured all the time.
"This kid is the best new talent in the league right now, and I don't care who else you mention." -Suns Coach, Alvin Gentry, on Clippers rookie sensation, Eric Gordon.
Yeah
I guess I could look for some youtube clips but I think we all know Kaman doesn’t like to dunk we he can do a fancy flip in.
In Gordon we trust

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