Share Your Thoughts: Eric Gordon Edition
ClipperNation is at a very akward crossroad. Many fans feel that a new begining is necessary, and that this rebuilding should be focused around young shooting guard Eric Gordon. However, Mike Dunleavy Sr. seems to have a "win now" attitude. There is the conflict.
Because of the poor performance from the Clippers last year, many fans have echoed the idea that next season's ClipShow will be just as bad, or tad bit better. I believe the prediction of 19-25 wins has been common.
The problem with this so-called reality (or, what some fans might call cynicsm) is that the pridiction of a poor next season discounts the fact that the roster is composed of talented, and hopefully prideful players, who will be constructed to fit around Eric Gordon next season. Among the understanable negativity, ClipperNation seems to forget about the two guard who is the number one guard in our hearts.
If you think Baron Davis and Zach Randolph will be the focal points of the offense next season, then hopefully you are mistaken. BDiddy should be responsible for getting the ball into young EJ's hands. Along with Chris Kaman, Randolph's presence is needed to keep opposing defenses honest, and remove the inevitable double teams Gordon will face.
(Regarding the importance of Randolph and/or Kaman, low post threats teach young players how to play with bigs in the NBA, and open up the entire playbook for the kids. Everyone has to remember when the Clippers ran only Brian Skinner
onto the floor, as the lone big. Teams paid no attention to the paint and glued themselves to the perimeter, making life miserable for Gordon, Steve Novak, and others.)
The point is, if Eric Gordon is the superstar that we all hope he is, then the Clippers immediate future may be brighter than a lot of us foresee. So, let's take a look at what we can/should expect from EJ, in his second NBA season. He is a good kid, and he must have great work ethic: How big of a jump can he make?
Eric Gordon averaged 16 PPG (points per game) in 34 MPG (minutes per game) in his rookie season (I will be rounding the decimal numbers). Here are some numbers from scoring shooting guards; some of them are similar to Gordon.
*The first group of players are players who played the same amount of MPG, as rookies, and roughly the same PPG as Eric Gordon.
-Brandon Roy: Rookie Season, 17 PPG in 35 MPG / Sophomore Season, 19 PPG in 37 MPG.
Gordon and Roy have very different styles of play. It's still food for thought, though.
-Kevin Durant: Rookie Season, 20 PPG in 35 MPG / Sophomore Season, 25 PPG in 39 MPG.
Durant's style of play resembles Gordon's style more than Roy's does.
-Ray Allen: Rookie Season, 13 PPG in 31 MPG / Sophomore Season, 19 PPG in 40 MPG.
I know that some of ClipperNation suggests that Allen is the veteran Gordon should learn from.
-Dwayne Wade: Rookie Season, 16 PPG in 35 MPG / Sophomore Season, 24 PPG in 39 MPG.
In my research, no current NBA SG came closer to Eric Gordon's PPG and MPG than Flash.
* Scoring shooting guards
-Richard Hamilton: Rookie Season, 9 PPG in 19 MPG / Sophomore Season, 18 PPG in 32 MPG.
Rip is a very good player, but this PPG jump is probably due to his massive increase in minutes.
-Ben Gordon: Rookie Season, 15 PPG in 24 MPG / Sophomore Season, 17 PPG in 31 MPG.
*Young Small Fowards
-Rudy Gay: Rookie Season, 11 PPG in 27 MPG / Sophomore Season, 20 PPG in 37 MPG.
-Danny Granger: Second Season, 14 PPG in 34 MPG / Third Season, 20 PPG in 36 MPG.
Similar to Granger, some players, some huge talents bloom later than others. These are 2 active scoring machines who got a late start.
-Tracy McGrady: Third Season, 15 PPG in 31 MPG / Fourth Season, 27 PPG in 40 MPG.
T-Mac was drafted straight from high school, which contributed to his slow start.
-Gilbert Arenas: Third Season, 20 PPG in 38 MPG / Fourth Season, 26 PPG in 41 MPG.
In my opinion, Arenas is a player that resembles what Eric Gordon can become.
So, I conclude with a question regarding the draft. If the Clippers are lucky enough to choose from Blake Griffin and Ricky Rubio, then who do they choose to fit next to ERic Gordon? Who complements him better? I know Rubio has a higher bust factor, but if he fulfills his potential, then how can he work with EJ. If Griffin becomes the Dwight Howard-like figure, how does that benefit EJ?
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i think he could have Wade potential next year. He might handle the ball more and start a lot more plays himself
That's hoping for a lot, imo
That’s hoping for a lot, imo Wade is a much more natural ball handler.
If Gordon started the entire season, he’d averaged closer to 18 PPG, last season.
A realistic jump for a superstar would probably take EJ in the neighborhood of 23-26 points (I emphasize SUPERSTAR).
Is he a superstar?
and I also was wondering about Rubio..because we do need another pg. The thing i dont understand is why Rubio is such as high prospect, when he barely averaged 10 points in the spanish league he played in. I think curry would be much better. He led the entire ncaa
Rubio's potential is is similar to Shuan Livingston's potential
that’s why he’s a high prospect. he is 18 years old, and he is 6’5". he’s also considered the most important member of his team.
why? because, his court vision is arguably unmatched. his passing ability is far ahead of Livingston’s at 18.
From Draftexpress.com: “Rubio is one of the best pick and roll players you’ll find in basketball today, NBA or not.”
also, “As the opposition moves the ball around the court, you can see Rubio anticipating their next move, closing down angles just as a pass is about to be made, pouncing at just the right moment, getting his long arms on the ball to create the deflection, and taking the ball the other way. At one point he had three consecutive steals in three possessions”
yea rubio's sort of like livingston
but does not have shooting abilities like livingston has. Plus rubio is slow as heck… did you see his videos? But man the kid can pass.
6'4" at most...
Rubio’s got good size for a point guard, but he’s not 6’5". I see him listed at 6’4" most of the time, but looking at him, I think he’s more like 6’3". Nash is a good comparison, but Nash is an incredible shooter which Rubio is not. Maybe Jason Kidd is the best comparison. But he’s very good, and I certainly love a pass first point guard.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 24, 2009 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah nash is not a good comparison. nash has a perfect textbook stroke. Rubio has a slooow release and i highly doubt he can shoot from the nba 3 point line.
IMO
Rubio is very young – he can get range later.
Unlike Livingston, he’s been playing at a high level for a while now.
Assuming that the team does its homework on his background, etc., why not take a chance on him? This is a weak draft. He will hate playing for MDSr though.
Rubio would be perfect for this team
We have guys that can score and that look to score. Rubio is the type of player that will look to set up his teammates first. We don’t really have that on this team. He has great size and with him being only 18 years of age, it is still very possible that he is not finished growing. He has great court vision and he plays pretty good on ball defense as well as being good at getting into the passing lanes. He will obviously need to add some muscle, but he definitely has the length to guard opposing 2’s. A Baron, EJ & Rubio rotation could be one of the best guard rotations in the league if Baron gets his act together. Also, with Rubio, Taylor could play his more natural position as a 2 guard.
Curry is a nice player and like him, but he’s smaller, not a natural point guard, a defensive liability and loves to shoot. Randolph, Thornton, Kaman, Gordon & Baron all like to shoot as well. There’s only one ball on the court. If we were selecting 10 or so, then selecting Curry wouldn’t be that bad from a BPA standpoint.
by Lawler 4ever on Apr 24, 2009 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually...a better comparison
Who would you take between the two below?
G……Min……Pts…..2FG…….3FG……..FT……..Reb…Ast…St….To
21…28:13…13.4….58.2%…26.8%…59.5%……4.3….2.5…2.2…2
5…..13:15…..2.4…..28.6%…33.3%…62.5%……2.4….2.8…1.8…2.4
The first is Marko Jaric’s last season in the Euroleague. The 2nd is Rubio this year.
Last year, Rubio was:
G……Min……Pts…..2FG…….3FG……..FT……..Reb…Ast…St….To
16…20:56….7.6……60.7%…36.0%… 77.1%…..3.4…..4.5…2.4…2.6
much better, but still scary.
i dont know if he can be a superSTAR...
but he defintely can become a superSCORER. 18ppg as a rookie starter, at 19 years old nonetheless is other-worldly. but EJ needs more improvement in his ability(or should we say effort) to rebound the basketball than he does in improving his offensive game. ball handling i would put at priority number 1a next to rebounding if he wants to take his game to a superstar level. scoring is natural for him, i dont think thats where he needs to focus his efforts this offseason.
That's hoping for a lot, imo
Wade is a much more natural ball handler.
If Gordon started the entire season, he’d averaged closer to 18 PPG, last season.
A realistic jump for a superstar would probably take EJ in the neighborhood of 23-26 points (I emphasize SUPERSTAR).
Is he a superstar?
Great Post FP
I bumping it to the front page.
Wade’s rookie season numbers are enticingly similar. Wade got his chance a little sooner than EJ, starting from day 1 and averaging almost 15 in November. Wade obviously has a different game – he doesn’t have EJ’s stroke or range, but he’s without peer in getting to the rim. But you also have to remember that Wade was a full two years older than EJ when he was a rookie. In fact, other than Durant, all of the players you list in the post are/were older. So in theory, EJ has more headroom.
The real question is can EJ maintain his great scoring efficiency at higher volumes of shots. When everyone else was hurt in January, he had his highest scoring month at almost 22 points per game. But he also had his poorest shooting month, at 43%. That’s to be expected to some extent, but how efficiently he scores as he becomes more of a focal point is something to watch next season.
It’s also worth noting that he was already taking more shots per game than Baron Davis by the end of the season, so it’s reasonable to expect that he’ll be the first option on the perimeter from day one next year.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
Mitch Richmond's rookie year
Mitch had better numbers, but he was 23, and started from the get.
I find Gordon’s game to be similar.
Stats here.
F-Elton!
I like the richmond comparison...
Gordon’s offensive game is pretty amazing. He’s a much better shooter than Wade, and while he’s not as good at penetrating (no one is), he’s still very good, and could get much better. Likewise, he’s probably not quite as good a shooter as Ray Allen, but better at taking the ball to the rim than Ray Ray. The combination – limitless range AND ability to attack the rim – is unstoppable, if he continues to improve.
I was trying to come up with a way to quantify this. I decided a combination of made three pointers, a high 3 point percentage (demonstrating deep range) and made free throws (players who attack the basket get sent to the line) would be the way to isolate these kinds of players. So I searched for players who made 130 threes, shot 38% and made 275 free throws. Guess what? Five players did that this season: Danny Granger, Ben Gordon, Vince Carter, Chauncey Billups and Eric Gordon. That’s pretty good company for a 20 year old rookie, you know?
(Sorry that Danny Granger showed up on the list Zhiv. Data is data. Please don’t return to the Pequod. Call me Ishmael.)
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 25, 2009 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Oops--
That little outburst up above was supposed to go down here.
by citizen zhiv on Apr 25, 2009 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Nice work FP
All sorts of good points. It’s always fun to have an informed discussion about Eric Gordon.
The basic question of 09-10 ppg is a good one. EJ’s 08-09 ppg is skewed because of short appearances in early games, but that’s probably true for a lot of players on your list, although Durant is an obvious guy who, like Mayo or DRose this year, started getting his minutes from game one.
One thing to look at might be the comparison of total minutes. That was where you could see the differences between Mayo, Westbrook, and Gordon. Gordon mpg went up because he played really well and there was no strong competition for his minutes. After the Mobley trade, and with Davis2’s horror show, Gordon was placed in a rather extraordinary situation. It was a very different season than if he had been an obvious starter going into training camp. And the point that he will be that guy, the obvious starter and a primary option next year, is really intriguing.
But besides that, it’s worth considering Gordon’s actual skill set and how it’s going to affect his results next season. Gordon is a fantastic shooter, we know that. And the fact is that he averaged almost 20 ppg this season after Jan 1st (SP will have the exact number)—he covered a lot of ground in raising his average.
I tracked his 3pt numbers pretty carefully, and they made a big contribution to his TSP and PPS. In his second season, in more minutes, and with some healthy big men, those numbers could be really good, even extraordinary. It might get even more interesting if the Clips resign Novak. It’s hard enough to guard one premier 3 pt threat, and much tougher to guard two of them. We know now that both of these guys can really hit shots.
Part of the attack, and for Gordon’s benefit, is to have him taking more shots, instead of other guys shooting a lower percentage. Baron Davis is obviously the leading candidate, and getting rid of a lot of shot attempts by Davis2, and even the numbers from Tim Thomas and Cat Mobley, will help. Shot attempts by Al Thornton will be a factor. With Thornton and Davis, you want them shooting and scoring when they’ve got it going, but they really need to avoid the harrowing empty nights. Zach Randolph is going to get a lot of shots and should shoot a decent percentage—that number is worth looking at. As with total minutes for the guys you mention, total shot attempts and total 3 pt attempts are significant. If Gordon can just get more shots, he’s going to score a lot more points.
On your list, the only comparable 3 pt shooter is Ray Allen. He’s a really good, close comparison, definitely a great goal for EJ to push towards. I don’t really think that Brandon Roy or Dwayne Wade are within reach, but we’ll know more at this time next season.
gordon's body
for some reason i cant seem to see gordon fitting into a PG player simply because of his broad shoulders.
EJ as a PG
I haven’t seen alot of PG skills from him so far. He could have them but he hasn’t been called upon to run the offense. I think he can guard most PGs but he could have some trouble against the taller SGs who can rise over him with ease. Pairing him with a tall pg like Rubio could work and we’d have a very promising backcourt for years.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 24, 2009 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions
EJ guarding 2's
The conventional wisdom always held that EJ was going to have trouble defending 2’s but I didn’t see it. I remember one game where a taller 2 (was it Dahntay Jones?) tried to post him up, and EJ blocked his shot. Now, obviously, Dahntay Jones is not a great scorer, and Gordon’s going to have some trouble with, say Kobe Bryant (then again, who isn’t?) But I just didn’t see a huge problem this season. He’s strong, so it’s not like guy’s can back him down easily. And he’s quick enough to stay close to guys, and long enough to bother shots.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 24, 2009 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions
He'll be okay guarding guys in the post
Because he’s pretty strong and compact. He’ll give up some height which gives the ball handler better court vision and they can pull up easier to jumpers. He’ll never be a lockdown defender though.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 25, 2009 3:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Harden
If we happen to draft 3rd or lower, would a back court of Gordon and Harden work for the future. Gordon got a lot better at setting guys up as the season went on. Harden has a lot of the same qualities as Gordon. Could we survive with have two combo guards in the back court?
The Bulls back in the day ran with Ron Harper as the PG, but they also had Michael Jordan.
Dont think it would work
PG in the the NBA is very difficult to play and the MJ comparison doesn’t work, Scottie Pippen usually ran the offense from the poing forward.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 25, 2009 3:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Should add
that there is very little empirical evidence that EJ can run a team, he only averaged 2.4 ast in college and 2.8 assist this year. Pairing him with Rubio makes alot more sense, if we are 3rd or lower we do need to move our pick I think.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 25, 2009 3:33 AM PDT up reply actions
i think there's going to be a lot of fring starter type prospects in this draft.
and harden seems like he would be one of those guys (at least for his first 3-4 years)… a serviceable player though…
by cantthinkofagoodname on Apr 25, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Another key piece: David Lee
The clippers should pursue David Lee this summer, perhaps by trading Camby + 2010 1st round pick. Assuming DJ turns into a serviceable center, this lineup would be pretty much set for the next 10 years:
Rubio
Gordon
Thornton
Lee
DJ
Plus, we have veterans B.Davis, Z. Randolph, and C.Kaman coming off the bench, as well as the speedy M. Taylor and shooting specialist S. Novak.
And if we buy a late first-round pick in this draft, we should get a tall wing who can back up Thornton (preferably a lock-down defender) — any one of the following would work:
Sam Young, James Johnson, Terrence Williams, Danny Green, Austin Daye, Chase Budinger.
If we make all these moves, there is a chance the clips could make the playoffs.
i dont think ANY team would ever have like 3- 10mil+ people coming off the bench especially if the starting line up consists of 4 3 year or less players
Yeah
It’s more like
Davis
Gordon
Thornton
Randolph
Kaman
with Rubio and Lee coming in after 5 minutes.
by bballanalyst on Apr 24, 2009 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions
1. neither zbo or randolph will come off the bench
2. that 2010 pick is going to be very high
3. david lee is overrated and not much better than camby
Lee brings consistency
He is a consistent double-double — we need these types of guys to keep us competitive the entire season. Plus he seems to give 100% effort every night, unlike most of the current clippers (with the exception of Al Thornton).
I think he is definitely worth Camby + pick, in a sign & trade. So the PF/C positions could be shared by Randolph, Kaman, and Lee, and given that Kaman is hurt 50% of the time, Lee would still be playing major minutes.
by bballanalyst on Apr 25, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
EJ's size...
…seems like his biggest limitation… though not on defense where you might expect. But how many times did you see him move into the paint and get shut down by bigs? He can get around it by dropping the hesitation or passing out, but he is smaller than everyone of the guys fP mentioned except Ben Gordon (though he already seems better than Gordon). And I don’t know who said it, but as good a handle as he has and as unselfish as he plays, he doesn’t look like a point guard out there.
I don’t remember how big Mitch Richmond was (or is) but it’s an agreeable comparison. Strong as an ox, both a slasher and a great shooter Ritchmond was probably at his best playing next to Tim Hardaway. They were all stars if TOGETHER, if I remember correctly. It certainly supports the idea of pairing up EJ with a talented PG.
Present day I take Ben without a question
Ben’s easily one of the best closers in the game. EJ, at least right now, hasn’t been assertive in crunch time. Its asking alot from a 19-20 yr old player but we’re comparing them in their present state.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 25, 2009 3:26 AM PDT up reply actions
You're probably right...
Home bias I guess. But Eric Gordon has the potential to be a more complete player than Ben. When Mobley left, Eric immediately became the Clips best wing defender. And though Ben can close out games as well as anyone, why are the Bulls constantly dangling him in potential trades? Because Kirk Hinrich’s better? (Though they pay him too much, Hinrich IS a better defender than Ben Gordon or Rose so he still gets a lot of minutes).
I'm just glad that EJ proved he can over come the Hollinger Per Rating
Rated as the worst player out of the lottery draft class and most overrated player.
I hope the scouts never look at Hollinger’s PER system for the draft.
Hollinger is on point
EJ didnt have a great freshman year at IU, he was hurt halfway through and really struggled late in the season. Not to mention IU had some scandals that led to the head coach resigning. Anyways those factors definitely impacted his stats.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 25, 2009 3:28 AM PDT up reply actions
As we discussed prior to the draft...
EJ’s first half season at IU, his numbers were through the roof. The second half, his numbers were terrible. Consequently, his freshman year averages were pretty mediocre. But injuries, a coaching scandal, a coaching change, etc. were all extenuating circumstances. We were all hoping those things explained the drop off in his productivity… so far, looks like we were right.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 26, 2009 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
speaking of short people… how the hell did charles barkley average 14 boards a season ? hes a little taller than eric gordon.
barkley
the man was a tank, the round mound of rebound
by MarekTheBrave on Apr 25, 2009 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Barkley
He also had very long arms, knew how to box out, great timing and had a nasty disposition on the court. Rodman wasn’t a big guy either, rebounding usually comes with effort (see Varejao and Ben Wallace). If it was just height then Bargnani would be a better rebounder and Paul Millsapp would be a bad rebounder.
FA in 2010.
Long arms...
That’s something he shared with Eric Gordon and “He who must not be named” (Elton Brand). They all play a lot bigger than they are floor to dome.
Paul Milsap
Some guys are just great rebounders. There are a bunch of them out there, routinely killing the Clips.
The Clips drafted Paul Davis one spot ahead of Milsap. It’s a “defensible pick,” to use SP’s parlence. You could say that, with FElton on the team, you didn’t need that undersized, long arm rebounder, and he wasn’t going to get significant minutes. So you draft the longer guy (Davis3) instead, who might be a better shooter and scorer and might be able to defend centers. But it turns out that one is an NBA rotation player and the other isn’t. Bad draft pick. Horrendous draft pick. Again.
Another disaster, like all the rest. Grangerharrismilsap.
by citizen zhiv on Apr 25, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Too facile...
Taking the second rounders from any draft that go on to be great players (and let’s face it, Millsap is much better than a ‘rotation player’, having garnered serious All Star Game consideration this season while Boozer was out, and he’ll be a full time starter somewhere next season) is a little too easy. BTW, Davis was drafted 13 spots ahead of Millsap, who was taken 47th… but almost every team in the NBA blew that with 20-20 hindsight. Name a team… they missed Millsap; and Monta Ellis; and lots of other players who were much better than anyone thought they’d be. Or do you want to argue that Golden State knew exactly how good Ellis was going to be? If that’s the case, why did they draft Ike Diogu 9th in the same draft?
You can make yourself crazy playing this game. Of course In Zhiv’s case, it looks like it’s already happened.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Apr 26, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
These are all factors that go into
the analysis of whether the GM is good at his job. You can always explain away decisions in isolation, but when you look at the total body of work . . .
That should be true
about the crap shoot of 2nd round picks, except for the fact that Milsap’s name was for some reason listed on Draft Express as a probable pick for the Clips for the entire month heading into the draft. So I knew a lot more about him, and Davis3, than I would have otherwise. In normal circumstances, I would agree with the point.
It was a “defensible” pick, just like the Livingston pick. Milsap was undersized and the Clips still had FElton. Davis3 had much greater size and looked to be able to play both the 4 and 5, backing up Kaman and FElton. It should be obvious to anybody who has spent time on this site that I wanted very badly for the Davis pick to work out. His failure to thrive is another significant lesson learned from this past season, an unfortunate one, but at least it’s another mistake that Dunleavy can’t make again. One of the things we have to aim for, since we’re stuck with Dunleavy for the time being, is to take away bad options, like Tim Thomas and Davis2. Let’s not forget that Davis3 played ahead of Steve Novak throughout the beginning of the season. And it should also be mentioned, I suppose, that he was another victim of an extremely untimely injury—he was improving and just about to get big minutes alongside Kaman in 07 when he got hurt, so we were treated to the Josh Powell and Fazeke show instead.
But thinking about those big minutes, just how good would the Milsap pick have been, remembering FElton’s summer 07 injury!
It also might be said the both Milsap and Boozer are something like the Brandon Roy’s of big men. They both played 4 very successful years of college, and had a lot of maturity and readiness when drafted. Boozer certainly shouldn’t have been a big surprise. Milsap played at a smaller school, but he had been a ferocious rebounder from the first moment he stepped on the court, and leading the NCAA in rebounding for 3 years is an impressive feat by any measure. It would be interesting to look back at the combine results—I don’t remember studying them so closely then, as I did last year with Gordon. You knew when Gordon tested out that he was going to be solid—his strength and weight and leap made up for the missing inch or two, and I was impressed when his numbers were the same or better than Westbrook, who seemed to be such an amazing athlete. And that was before I saw his jump shot.
So looking back, the pick may be defensible, but it was wrong wrong wrong, and there’s no way that Milsap wasn’t on the Clippers radar.
But just as Al Thornton fell to the Clips in some weird equation that might make up, just a little bit, for passing on Granger, and Gordon seems to be a great fit, maybe DeAndre Jordan, over time, will make up for taking Davis3 instead of Milsap. Just like getting Baron Davis because the Clips took Livingston instead of Devin Harris was supposed to work out—except that was hasn’t really worked out quite yet, has it.
by citizen zhiv on Apr 26, 2009 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Nice post, Zhiv...
Buried down here amidst all the comical bickering, but well thought out and relevant. Even makes me think you might be right about these particular second round picks.
But don’t forget, Milsap looked like a classic tweener, and as you said, the Clips had Elton. Of course that comment plays against my own comment about drafting for need in NBA… you shouldn’t do it in the first round, and you can’t do it in the second. Clearly Milsap was the better choice and not at all a reach.
According Hollinger
Davis3 was the 3rd best player of that draft class. The clippers subscribe to ESPN insider and drafted based off the experts opinions.
I think better example would be
the birdman, he has long arms but gets all of his rebounds (and blocks for that matter) with pure effort.
In Gordon we trust
I can't take it anymore...
Let’s take your favorite GM, anyone, who is it? One of the young geniuses? Riley? One of Pop’s boys? And let’s look at their 2nd round picks over the last five years… I guarantee you they made one or two decent picks and a lot of guys who are gone gone gone. Picking in the first round is hard, picking in the second round is ridiculous. Drafting for need in the 2nd round is a joke and can’t be done.
There are a handful of good reasons to hate on Mike Dunleavy, but this isn’t one of them.
Zhiv, or whoever you are, please untie the pleasant man you locked in the basement and give him back his rose-colored glasses. I just can’t live with the new you.
Maybe instead of resisting you should just follow Zhiv down the path to truth
Why are you wasting so much time trying to defend the indefensible? We Clippers fans are patient, but enough is enough. No one is hating on MDSr. We just want to win. Unfortunately, he cannot help us.
Zhiv is on the path...
But I don’t think he’s headed toward truth. Can’t you see the man’s haunted and miserable? He’s a zombie, a shadow of his former self. Have some mercy, please.
It might be semantics, but how can you say no one’s “hating on” MDSr.? I’m not suggesting you hate him in the sense that you hate his humanity but you certainly hate him as a coach or GM, don’t you?
I’m still waiting for the Jaxian answer as to who is the best GM in the NBA… or at least who’s the Jaxian favorite. But you won’t answer because you know there’s no winning that argument.
Oh, wait, I remember… Jax “tends to look at wins…” isn’t that right? So, you have to look at the top teams. Mitch Kupchack, Danny Ainge, Danny Ferry, and… uh… Otis Smith. Wait… are ANY of those guys on the best GM list? Really? Danny Ainge…? Whew, I think my heart stopped for a second there.
I don’t think there’s any real argument here. It’s too easy to slam a GM over draft picks, especially second rounders. The real argument is too complex, and the Jaxian answers are too facile….
I like "Jaxian"
But I not sure I like this path to the truth thing. I think I might have to turn around.
by citizen zhiv on Apr 26, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Facile is a good word...
And maybe I accidentally stole it from CS or maybe it just fits so darn well, that I reused it (semi)intentionally. But why don’t respond to the criticism?
Ugh… I’ve been sucked in. You, Jax, are the master of the elegant, meaningless snare. This makes you happy? This satisfies you?
It’s sad. Every single argument you make is legitimate, defensible, and relevant. But you demean your own ideas with your arrogant refusal to engage in legitimate dialogue.
That's funny
I was thinking (read “thinking”) similar thoughts about you. What exactly do you want to discuss substantively?
Yuck...
I repeatedly asked you who was the best NBA GM. It was bait though and you knew it, so you ducked the question. This is because you know damn well that every GM makes mistakes… bad picks, bad trades, or occasional errors in judgment. But it would weaken your argument against MDSr., so you sidestepped the question.
Sorry - I didn't think that question was directed to me
Frankly, I do not know the answer to that question. But I can tell you that while they all make mistakes, some make more mistakes than others. As evidenced by W-L record over a period of time, if nothing else. I wish I had more time to analyze that issue. Pritchard in Portland comes to mind.
The best?
Based on performance it’s RC Buford and it’s not close.
Yeah...
based on wins and championships, that’s gotta be correct. While you can’t credit him with “finding” Tim Duncan, he pulled some ridiculous guys out of the back end of the draft. It will be pretty interesting to see what he does from here on out.
Daryl Morey
He’s my personal favorite, not for what he’s done so far but for his background and approach and what he represents to the future of NBA’s Moneyball.
And that’s the kind of man I hope the Clips will hire (immediately), a highly intelligent Geekapalooza-type familiar with NBA advanced statistics and salary cap minutiae.
Morey...
..isn’t just a Moneyball guy… he’s THE Moneyball guy… and I think he HAS done a lot and most of it good. He fired Jeff Van Gundy and hired Rick Adelman. He traded a (relatively late) number one for Ron Artest. He dumped Rafer Alston for Kyle Lowry. He drafted Aaron Brooks at 26. He picked up Luis Scola for a second rounder. He signed Steve Francis then got rid of him when he didn’t work out for an expiring contract… a sweet move. Of course he also picked up Steve Novak’s option then let him go for a swapped 2nd rounder which still doesn’t make sense, His team is still way over the cap, and he’s yet to deal with the TMac situation, and Artest is a free agent this year.
I’m still not convinced the Moneyball approach is the be-all and end-all for basketball but Houston is a undeniably a better basketball team after Morey was brought in.
Houston
I’m totally fascinated by the Rockets’ approach to preparation, specifically things like forcing opponents into their cold shooting zones or stealing offensive play-calls. I focus almost exclusively on Battier when I watch their games. He’s like the anti-Maggette and now the anti-Thornton of defensive basketball IQ.
There are a lot of blind squirrel GMs in this league. I want someone who can justify their decision-making with statistical analysis and salary cap justification. MDSr is competent in the latter, but clueless in the former.
That said, once a new GM is brought in I think the right play is to keep MDSr as coach. Go ahead, flame away – but DTS isn’t going to pay top dollar for 2 coaches, so is the team really going to respond to an entry-level doofus? MDSr knows he’s on the fireball seat so let him have a season with his roster, healthy. Meanwhile, start making moves to overhaul the team (trade Camby, try to find a sucker for Biddy, wait for ZBo’s contract to expire, etc.) Have a plan that goes beyond 2011.
No reason to flame...
…not when you’re taking an empirical approach and arguing for achievable goals. There’s too many people ranting about firing Dunleavy without advocating any sort of rational plan beyond “getting a better coach because Dunleavy sucks!” While I continue to think MD’s been a better than decent GM, it doesn’t mean he’s the best alternative… and it seems the salary problem has become insurmountable.
But the daunting hurdle in your proposal is who’s going to identify and hire this progressive team-architect. Wouldn’t the best move the Clippers could make be to hire a new team President? Doesn’t Andy Roeser ultimately have to be held responsible for the team’s success or failure? Why aren’t we screaming for his head? You’d hope to hire a new guy with some professional sport’s experience and let that guy hire a new coach and GM in whatever order he prefers.
Of course
The trouble starts from the top-down. If we could, we’d all want Sterling gone first. Well, not gonna happen. Next, Roeser. Not gonna happen either, as he seems to be the designated spokesperson to the fans (ugh, those season ticket renewal e-mails…) So who’s next? The GM MDSr. I don’t know if he’s getting additional salary for this position, but I assume not, which is why he’s safe there too. And MDSr the GM isn’t going to replace MDSr the coach. Hence the dreadful outlook for next season. Keeping the status quo, for this group, is torture.
I guess we all agree on that...
What if Dunleavy appointed his own GM? Worked for Popovich and Buford.
Or maybe I should just change my screen name to “FireRoeser.com”. I don’t think anyone would know what I was talking about. But…
Hmm…
W returns...
Invoking the religious tinged “path to truth?” Why not say “path to salvation?” Next you’ll tell us that supporters of Dunleavy are “the evil-doers.”
Dude, for someone who doesn’t want to be compared to W, you sure do use many of same flawed arguments, verbiage and turns of phrase. Take a very deep breath and try giving it a rest…
But I know you won’t. Instead, you’ll tell us next that you (and I’m paraphrasing here) remain undaunted by the “evil-doers” and you’ll remain “steadfast in your mission” and blah blah blah… and when Dunleavy is fired I’ll personally raise a banner behind you that says “Mission Accomplished.”
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Apr 26, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
"W returns..."
is all for Jax. Nobody else on this site comes close…
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Apr 26, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions
We can only hope that Baron will get the ball to EJ next year.
Unfortunately, Baron and Zach are prideful in the wrong way. I feel like they will try to make themselves the focal points of the offense, while EJ continues to shoot a high percentage on very few shots. That’s the problem with the “win now” approach the Clippers have. They think that if Zach and Baron get on track, then the team will be on to something. That’s probably true, but I don’t see Baron and Zach getting on track any time soon. I think that Baron’s probably damaged goods (i.e. why he opted out of his contract with the Warriors) and Zach will continue to get the team wins, but in an overall losing season. I’d rather watch a team with a future win 15 games than watch these guys win 25.
Maybe I’m an extremist, but I’d completely blow this team up. I’d fire MDsr (obviously), and find new homes for Camby, Kaman, Baron, Zach and Ricky Davis. That means trade whoever is tradeable, and bench the guys who have huge contracts until they prove that will not let the team get embarassed like it did last year. Starting line-up: Mike Taylor, Eric Gordon, Al Thornton, Hopefully Blake Griffin and Deandre Jordan. Unfortunately for the Clippers,, they’ll probably get an awful draft pick, keep Dunleavy and let Baron and Zach run the show.
"If a Clippers fan is reading a newspaper in his living room and the ceiling falls on him, he'll just shrug and move to another room." -Bill Simmons
by WestsideBrandon on Apr 26, 2009 6:00 PM PDT reply actions
An Outsiders View On Gordon ....
I don’t think Eric Gordon is the type of player you build a team around. He is however a very nice piece of the foundation.
I don’t think Eric Gordon is a superstar type talent, but he can become a star player.
The three areas that cause me concern are:
- In 38.5mpg as a starter, Eric Gordon averaged 2.9 rebounds. That’s very poor.
- In 38.5mpg as a starter, Eric Gordon averaged only 3 assists a game. For a guard who gets that many touches, opportunities to dribble and shots … he doesn’t create shots well for his teammates. This inability limits him as an offensive force. I’d love to see more playmaking ability from Gordon, that would change my opinion of him in a major way.
- His defense. I thought he was a solid one-on-one defender and a below average team defender as a rookie. As he gets older he can improve here, but will he ever be a game changing defender? Possibly, but I’m doubtful. I think this area is his best chance at improvement.
At the moment the only way he regularly changes his game is with his scoring — which is impressive, and his scoring efficiency is hugely impressive — but his lack of ability to change games in other areas makes me think he has a low ceiling.
I’m thinking a 20+ppg scorer who will be doing well to become a borderline All-Star — the type of player who gets an invite to an All-Star game when he’s having one of the best seasons of his career, but regularly does not get picked.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
That's a low ceiling?
How many Clippers have ever been regularly picked to be All-Stars? Your standards might be a tad high. EJ had a fantastic season for a #7 pick with one year of college experience. Otherwise, I agree with you about the rest. Nice analysis.
Haha, very true.
I meant relative to being a cornerstone of a franchise, or a superstar talent. In that light, I think Gordon has a low ceiling.
Otherwise, in the normal view of the world, he has a high ceiling. Very good prospect.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
ur pretty much wrong on the defense…and the touches. He did not get that many touches. because of that he usually tried to score because the clips were always behind. next year he will get more touches and have more opputunities
He'll also get more defensive attention
We got blown out alot, some teams didn’t even bother making defensive adjustments against us (what’s the point when you are up by 20 at halftime). He may get more touches but his efficiency will get challenge as teams respect him more and form game plans to stop him.
I don’t think he has elite superstar status (of a Kobe, Lebron, Wade etc) but he could be a very good player (Joe Johnson, Ray Allen, Mitch Richmond) for a very long time. I haven’t seen much from him this year or his college year that suggests he will ever be a great all-around player.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 28, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions
rebounds
I believe he could rebound more but MDsr offensive scheme has him waiting on the outside of the arc where rebound opportunities are few and far between.
In Gordon we trust
Mmmm
Wishful thinking. He was a poor rebounder in college as well. He only averaged 2.6 rebounds per game this year when he played 34.3 mpg. Baron who played about as much time as he did averaged 3.7 rebounds. In fact, ALL the guards on the team had a better rebounding rate per 48 minutes than EJ, even Mike Taylor.
He can improve (hard to get worse) but its more of a mindset than anything.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 29, 2009 1:28 AM PDT up reply actions
This just in....
Eric Gordon was not chosen for the All-Rookie first team. He made the 2nd team along with Kevin Love, Rudy Fernandez, Mario Chalmers, and Marc Gasol.
First team selections were Rose, Mayo, Beasley, Westbrook, and Brook Lopez.

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