The Myth of Kobe
by mikey p on May 11, 2009 4:11 PM PDT
94 comments
Things tend the quiet down around ClipsNation during the playoff season. So how about a little Kobe-bashing? I'll begin by making the main point: while the meaning of the phrase "best player" is difficult to measure, Kobe Bryant is no more than the third best player in the NBA. If that. The conventional wisdom is that, while LeBron and Wade are clearly superstars, Kobe is the NBA's "best player". In fact, it seems that any praise given the formers is nearly always followed up by some obligatory mention of the Kobe. "Right now, LeBron is the game's best player, along with Kobe Bryant, of course." Kobe is the de facto #1, while the best anyone else can hope for is 1A. The idea that Kobe Bryant is the NBA's best player seems to survive more on habit and tradition than it does on actual evidence. Nowhere is this more apparent than in his seemingly annual selection to the NBA's All-Defensive team. It is a subject that has been written about ad nausea by our own Steve Perrin, so I won't belabor the point, other than to say that the arguments in favor of Kobe as an All-World defender are flimsy. He rarely guards the opposition's best player, and he is often lit up when he does. His team is not considered one of the league's defensive powers. The Lakers good offense is hardly the result of solid team defense (the Triangle benefits little from stops and transition). Were the award for Most Capable Defender, he would certainly be in the running. He has the talent. He has shut people down plenty in the past, most recently in Beijing. But clearly his defensive accolades are inflated based on reputation. It's all hype. Meanwhile, Dwayne Wade finished the season second in the NBA in steals and 15th in blocked shots (impressive for a 6'4" guard). Many of his blocks were at the end of games, some against his man, a la Elton Brand. For him to be 2nd Team All-NBA Defense while Kobe is 1st Team makes the distinction more of a joke. That aside, Kobe lags behind LeBron and Wade, in my opinion the game's top two players, in other areas. They are just more effective players. Simply looking at Hollinger's PER reveals that even Kobe's best year falls short of LeBron's and Wade's best years. Kobe's ceiling was 2005, a year in which he averaged 35 points on a team that won 45 games. Wade and LeBron have had two seasons with higher PERs than Kobe's best season, including this year, in which they both blew his high year away. The reason for this is that both better team players than Kobe, a component of the game that PER at least take the temperature of. Their assist totals are what they should be for a player that is the focal point of their offense. Kobe's are not. Lakers fans will say, "But it's all about wins." Of course it is. The Cavs and Lakers both had great years, winning 66 and 65 games, respectively. But LeBron led Cleveland to the higher total by being the closest thing to a one-man team the NBA has ever seen. Kobe has a lot more help. Take Kobe off the Lakers, and Gasol, Odom and Bynum, led by Phil Jackson, could likely still win 45 games maybe even sniff out a playoff spot. Remove LeBron from the Cavaliers, and that team would be lucky to win 20 games. To further the exercise, have the players switch teams. Put Kobe on this year's Cleveland squad and it is doubtful that they would pull off 50 wins. (I base this on past performance; Kobe's highest pre-Gasol win total is 45 games). Put LeBron on this year's Lakers team and they would likely see an improvement, even if only a modest one. They certainly would not become worse. (The Heat without Wade would only win 8 games this year, becoming the worst team ever). "But LeBron doesn't have a ring. Kobe has three." Well, sure. Kobe did win three championships as the Robin to Shaquille O'Neal's Batman early in his career. Kobe was certainly a key part of those championship teams. I would even argue that he was the more consistent performer of two the throughout the playoff runs leading up the NBA Finals, where Shaq then became the dominant player and won the three MVP awards. Kobe, Wade and LeBron all have made Finals appearances the past three years, but only Wade was able to come away with the trophy (teamed with Shaq, but with Shaquille as the role player). Kobe has yet to lead a team to a championship, and when given the opportunity, was part of the biggest Finals collapse in history (Game 4) and blown out by 40 in the elimination game. LeBron was swept by a vastly superior Spurs team in his only appearance. Wade simply dominated in his Finals. "I would want the ball in Kobe's hands at the end of the game". Really? 82games.com has a study on that. While Kobe has made some absolutely huge shots at big moments in his career, he has missed many, and is unlikely to look for his teammates, racking up only one assist in those situations while missing 42 shots and turning it over five times. LeBron, by contrast, has six assists in end of game situations while hitting a much higher percentage of his game winners, 34% to 25%. Wade has 3 assists and hits 27.5% of his games winners. To be sure, I would certainly comfortable with Kobe Bryant taking the last shot for my team. Of the three, he is definitely the best outside shooter. But I would rather have the ball in the hands of somebody who can create a shot for a teammate if his own shot isn't there. Here, LeBron and Wade are better. Both have career averages of 6.7 assists for their careers, while Kobe's career average is 4.6. And Kobe has actually had people to pass to for the better part of his career, unlike LeBron and Wade. In fairness, part of the disparity may be due to the Triangle offense, where assist totals tend to be more evenly distributed, as opposed to the systems of Cleveland and Miami, which run solely thru their stars. Michael Jordan's career average is just over five assists per game, and he certainly had teammates who could make shots. "Kobe scored 81 points in a game. Let's see LeBron and Wade do that." True. Kobe's 81 was an amazing display of #24's (#8?) scoring ability. He was on fire that night, which happens to be one of the few regular season Lakers games that I have watched all the way through the past few years. It is very unlikely that LeBron or Wade, or anyone else for that matter, will ever do something like that again. It was a perfect storm of circumstances. Inferior opponent, lots of trips to the foul line, lots of threes, all made possible by the refusal of the opponents coach to double team Kobe. If the question were whether Kobe was the game's best scorer, the answer would be YES! Maybe ever. But there is more to basketball than scoring, especially by one player. "Kobe is a leader". Actually, I'm not sure even Lakers fans believe that. Kobe has always seemed to have a problem in this area. I'm not sure how well he and his teammates get along off the court, but there oftentimes appears to be a disconnect on it. I'm don't know that his mates know what to expect each day. Will it be the "shoot first" Kobe today, or will it be Kobe that tries to get everyone involved? Will he be the guy yelling at the referees for every bad call and non-call, or will today be the day he directs his ire towards Luke Walton or some other scrub, or tries to teach the team a lesson by scoring only 2 points in the deciding game 7 of a first round playoff series vs. Phoenix? I'm no psychologist, but I do know that unpredictability keeps people on edge a lot more than consistency does. And what are the Lakers if not inconsistent? Bill Simmons put it best when he said that the Lakers camaraderie looks forced and strained when compared to that of LeBron's Cavs, who laugh and whoop it up and seem to genuinely like one another and their leader. Leadership matters. Subordinate teammates will almost always assume the character of their leaders. Look at Denver, whose culture completely changed this season when Chauncy Billups came to town while the Pistons became the Rasheed Wallaces and got swept. We experienced this here when Sam Cassel joined the Clippers. Sam brought a swagger that the team had previously lacked, no matter how talented Elton Brand was. It is important that a team's leader be one who his teammates respect and for whom they want to win. Here I will let the Lakers fans diagnose their own team. "Kobe wants to win more than anyone." We hear that a bunch. It is quite hard to quantify. But let's check the evidence. The aforementioned Phoenix series is a prime example of why this may not be true. Did D'Antoni's Suns, featuring Boris Diaw at center and Tim Thomas off the bench suddenly become Spurs-like on defense in order hold Kobe to just two second-half points following his 33 point first-half? Or did Bryant quit on his team? Can anyone picture Michael Jordan doing that? Would Michael Jordan have let his team get blown out by 40 points in the elimination game of an NBA Finals? I have certainly seen that dogged determination and fearlessness in Kobe. He may indeed be the hardest working player in the league. But how could a player who supposedly wants to win more than anything perform like that when it matters most? Down 2-0 to a very good Pistons team in 2007's Eastern Conference Finals, LeBron carried a pretty weak Cleveland team to NBA Finals with a Game 5 performance for the ages. We know how Dwayne Wade performed when the chips were down (referee assisted or not, he kept attacking and hitting big shots). Where is Kobe's signature playoff performance? Shouldn't the NBA's "greatest player" step it up in these moments? The list could continue. Kobe's on-court conduct is at times unbecoming of an NBA icon. Flying elbows, yelling at teammates, cursing out refs, taunting opponents - the Laker great seems to be lacking in the class department. Aside from Kevin Garnett, whose behavior is rapidly deteriorating even by his standards, true NBA greats typically refrain from engaging in such behavior. I don't recall Magic, Michael or Larry taunting their opponents. LeBron or Wade will sometimes pose after a big shot or dunk, but mostly they just try to get back on defense. Maturity matters. Kobe Bryant is among the most talented players in NBA history. But he is not today's best. Not when there is a player like LeBron James, who at only 24 is unlike anything I have ever seen. I can think of no player who has combined such size and speed (in any sport, for that matter). He has the skills of a point guard and the athleticism of a shooting guard in the body of a power forward. He rebounds, plays defense, and makes those around him better. Much better. He still has much to accomplish before being mentioned in the same breath as Michael or Magic, but he may be well on his way. He is a virtual hybrid of the two. For him, the sky is the limit. Nor would I consider Kobe a better player than Dwayne Wade. Not yet the outside shooter that Kobe is, Wade is just as effective scoring the ball and even better at getting his teammates involved. Plus, Wade's on the ball defense has improved substantially. He gives all he has to that side of the court. Anyone who watched the Olympics this summer noticed that everything changed when Dwyane Wade came in the game. He was Team USA's best player, and certainly the fiercest. They don't win Gold without his tenacity. The above analysis omitted point guards and big men and focused only on the great wing players of today. That was intentional. Chris Paul and Tim Duncan undoubtedly belong in any conversation of the NBA's best player. But for the purposes of this piece, LeBron and Wade are more directly comparable. They are the three we hear of most in the discussion of NBA's best. However, in the case of one of them, inclusion in the discussion is relies pertly on smoke and mirrors, and a little bit of hype. Kobe Bryant is a great, great player. But no matter how badly the media wants it to be so, he is not the best.
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As Clipper fans I'm sure we all remember Shaq's 61 at the end of three quarters.
I don’t know why Jackson pulled him out. I wouldn’t have. Who knows what he would have ended up with. I do know, a few years later Kobe scores 81 and we’re treated to “The Greatest of All Time” bull. Kobe’s a great player but he lacks character, and character counts for alot.
Great post Mikey p
It has become very very very clear that Kobe is not the best player in the NBA. Lebron is better then him by far. Like you said Kobe may be a better scorer but Lebron is the more complete player. Where Kobe would always look to score in the final possession Lebron would first look to score but would at any time pass for a better final shot. Also I get really tired of Laker fans always saying Kobe is the “best player ever” he is not by far Michael Jordan claims that title by alot it is not even close. One main reason is Kobe is not as good a leader as Jordan. Lebron is the only player now who is even close to the player and leader of Jordan. This was shown Yesterday in the Faker game against the injury riddled Rockets. A good leader would have seen his team not trying and would have led by example and pushed the team over the rockets, but Kobe just went along with it and let his team be pummeled by a team they should have beaten by 20. One thing that also makes Lebron a better player then Kobe is that Lebron has shown to be a better defender and definitely was more deserving of a spot on the all defense team then Kobe. I guess the only thing that can stop these fantasies of Kobe as the best player will be if the Fakers make the finals with the Cavs and Lebron crushes Kobe.
In Gordon we trust
The Lakers defeating the Cavs in the Finals would certainly be a boost for Kobe
But I do believe that the Lakers have a better supporting cast.
F-Elton!
81
Why does Kobe scoring 81 points once even argue that hes the greatest player of all time or even in the league… it seems that everytime someone says something about kobe the persons response is “who scored 81?”
If you had a chance to chose Bird or Kobe who would you pick? Magic or Kobe? Jordan or Kobe?
Russell or Kobe? Please make me stop, I could go on forever. Kobe’s not the greatest and he’s never been. Basketball is a team sport, it’s not like playing tennis. Kobe’s not the best player simply because he’s never been a good team mate. Oh I’m sure there’s other reasons, but look at that list, Magic, Bird, Jordan and Russell, they all made their teams better. They did everything possible to win games, which means assists and rebounds as well. Kobes not in the conversation.
Yeah, the list would be pretty long. The answer would be WILT! There's any number of
players you’d pick first if you were going to start a franchise, Kobe’s not really in it. What about Elgin and West? Kareem, Oscar?
I will accept Kobe as the greatest in my book when Barry Bonds is also accepted as
the greatest baseball player. Same great “team” players
Amen
"The brownies,'' Fernandez said after the game. "The brownies are good for me to make three-points.''
In my book
Russell is the best player of all time he wins on all accounts number of championships, rebounds, points, blocks, defense, leadership and also he is probably one of the most likable players ever to play the game. I’m happy he finally getting his dues in the form of the finals MVP trophy being named after him.
In Gordon we trust
We're definetly in the minority. It always seemed obvious to me. He has 11 rings and was a
player coach on the last one. He also won a gold medal and led his college team to two NCAA titles.
Can anyone else say that?
by eastie Rich on May 11, 2009 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions
i like how
he doesnt mention that the lakers beat both the heat and cavs all season by double digits…im just saying
What does that have to do with anything?
I’m just asking.
The Lakers beat the Heat, ergo Sasha Vujacic > Dwayne Wade.
"So what are the odds that the Clippers can compete next season given their limited flexibility? Slim and none."
Exactly
I mean, really, the whole topic has nothing to do with anything, other than being a frivolus diversion.
I kept it on the very elementary level, with shallow statistical evidence. I’m sure a study of the more sophisticated metrics would reveal the same thing.
F-Elton!
As long as you're bringing up things mikey p didn't mention...
I’ll add that he forgot to include the fact that the Bobcats swept the Lakers this season.
Forgive the oversight
Larry Brown knows how to coach against Phil and Kobe.
And clearly, this season sweep proves that Gerald Wallace is superior to Kobe.
F-Elton!
I sure hope you're right...
Because I hate his guts.
This is obviously a big year for him to stake his claim as one of the great players of all time. Hopefully, he fails in his title bid this year Asap.
Remember those “If I could be like Mike” commercials?
No one says, “If I could be like Kobe”
Kobe is already an all-time great
If he leads the Lakers to a couple of chamionships in the next few years, it would change things. But as of now, I believe he has been surpassed but LBJ and DWade.
F-Elton!
While we're at it, can I step on some sacred ground and say Jackson's not
the greatest coach ever?
Briefly, Jackson had Jordan and Pippen, not bad a twosome to start a team. He had Tex Winter
design and teach the triangle offense. This was not something he designed. When he went to the Lakers, he refused until they signed Shaq. When he takes the job he realizes he doesn’t really know the triangle (how many years did they use it on the Bulls) so he has to pull Tex out of retirement to teach it to his team. Then when he wins he takes all the credit. What a guy.
by eastie Rich on May 12, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Nice post mikey
Kobe is severely damaged goods. Really enjoyed your take on the way he relates to his teammates. Also, keep in mind that none of the greats mentioned here were ever charged with a serious felony. Hard to understand why Laker fans embrace him, when he’s everything Magic, West and Elgin were not.
Funny how Dodger fans all support Manny after every single one of them hated Bonds.
by eastie Rich on May 12, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions
This is LA, we like to criticize other players but not our own.
and it’s easy to jump off the bandwagon as it is to get on.
Jumping off the bandwagon - you mean when the Lakers don't win the championship?
by eastie Rich on May 12, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Some ppl have taken off their Laker flags from their cubicle after the game 4
Don’t know why, the series is still going on.
true that
As a rockets fan,
I agree as i have witnessed the dirty kobe this series. I didn’t pay much attention before.
But after he’s played this series he loses respect …Lebron is a monster.
Good post
i’ll start off by admitting that i am a laker fan, but also a fan of the game of basketball.
some of the points made are definitely shared by many, which is obvious from all the comments. but what are you basing these conclusions off of? a game here and there.. perhaps even 10 games a season of 82 regular season games. or is it just two games a season when he shows up to play your team? you also might be basing your conclusion off of what you read in the media.
in regards to his first-team defensive accolade as being non-deserving.. not sure what game you’ve seen but kobe primarily guards the “best” player on the opposing team. let’s take the lakers vs cavs this season for example. kobe guarded lebron from the start of the game while lebron only mans up kobe in the 4th. lets look at the results.. the first game lebron had 16 pts off of 5 of 20 shooting with 12 assts. kobe had 19 pts off of 8 of 17 shooting with 2 assists (note: lebron played 6 more mins than kobe — also a game where kobe played with a dislocated finger). second game of the season.. lebron had 23 pts off of 9 of 25 shooting with 4 assits. kobe had 20 pts from 9 of 22 shooting with 12 assists (note: kobe played through a flu).
as far as kobe not being like “michael, magic, or larry” by playing “dirty, taunting, and arguing calls” shows how little you know of them. along with GP, jordan was known to be the biggest smack talker on the court. he said he loved the mental game of getting into peoples heads — which largely happens with taunting. people mistakenly say jordan was the best leader or teammate. like kobe, jordan never passed because he didnt trust his teammates early in his career. it wasn’t until they proved that they could consistently hit open shots did jordan begin to pass (sound familiar). or how about mj scuffing steve kerr in the face during practice because he was playing hard defense. hardly the attitude of an ideal teammate.
as far as lebron doing more with less.. lets not discredit the rest of the cavs.. they have a solid team built with role players and an exceptional backcourt led by mo. and dwade had an awesome career but i honestly feel he has a slightly better team than what kobe had taking the lakers to the first round two seasons in a row. we had smush, kwame and luke in the starting lineup. smush got picked up by the same “worst team in the nba” heats the following season, barely came off the bench and eventually got dropped. and lets not even get started with kwame. and luke is a decent player but no other team would have him in the starting lineup.
lebron and wade had a breakout year this season.. both have stepped up their game.. but lets not forget that this improvement in game is largely credited to kobe. both players have said that they saw first hand the early mornings, long hours and hard work ethic kobe puts in during the off season to improve his game and thats what motivated them to work on theirs. without kobes influence on and off the court, would the US team have had the same results bringing home the gold? i doubt it
Great Reply,
I understand the demeanor of Kobe. I understand that Kobe is far superior to DWade and LBJ because he has the “rapist” Mentality that others’ lack. I guess it’s the equivalent to OJ Simpson’s “killer” instinct when driving through the hole. I also understand that Kobe is no dirtier than MJ, Bird and Magic….Kobe just suffers from a slight form of Tourettes that causes his elbow to flair out at random parts of the game.
I also understand that the “Redeem team” was too lackadaisical to win the Gold. Team USA would never have been able to win the gold with this team filled with Olowakandis and Oliver Millers.
I get it, “Kobe, A real American hero”.
“And knowing is half the battle”.
I agree with many of your points
Of course Jordan talked lots of trash and was hard on his teammates. But there seemed to be a trust factor there that appears to be lacking with Kobe. I say apprears because what do I know? I’m not in the locker room.
I stand by my point about the defense. Kobe CAN play defense, but how often does he make a game changing defensive play? Not enough to be a First Teamer. Like I said, it is based on reputation and hype.
And yes, Kobe did have terrible teammates a few years back. But LeBron is the only All-Star on his team, and he led them to 66 wins.
Kobe certainly steps it up when he plays LeBron. However, LeBron’s stats usually come within the flow of the game. He is not out for stats. Kobe, on the other hand, forces things. It’s a miracle when he gets his teammates involved.
The article is not that Kobe sucks. Of course he doesn’t. He is great. He is hard working. I agree that his work habits helped LeBron and Wade become better.
What I am refuting is the notion propogated by the media that Kobe is the unquestioned best player while the rest are also rans. I can’t imagine that anyone would take Kobe over LeBron to start a team.
F-Elton!
haha you say that mikey p is only using selective evidence to prove kobe isn’t a great defender and then use a selective couple of games (the ones vs the cavs this season) to make your point.
i totally agree with mikey… kobe CAN BE and has shown in the the past that he can be a great defensive player but that is not his role at all anymore. he doesn’t expend a lot of energy on that side of the court anymore but he is selected all-d 1st team year after year. really makes no sense other than lazy voters.
in this rockets series, who is kobe guarding primarily? battier? why is he constantly getting open looks for 3? is kobe gambling too much on doubles? when aaron brooks starting lighting up the laker guards, why wasnt all-defensive 1st teamer kobe switched onto him?
I respectfully disagree...
I wont try to argue that Lebron isnt in the discussion for the best player in the league. Clearly he is. However, I can and will argue that Kobe is definitely in the discussion (and, in my opinion, still the best player in the league…although I think ultimately it is an apples to oranges comparison). I have watched kobe for a long time. Ive seen him win a scoring title, Ive seen him win the MVP. But I have never seen him play better than he did this season. Kobe has the deadliest jump shot in the league. What has truly impressed me though is how he has trusted his teammates, working hard with and without the ball to get his teammates good looks on a consistent basis. He tries to dominate the game on his own much less frequently than he used to, instead, he is trying to win games as a team. I think its easy to forget in the midst of an ugly playoff series just how good the Lakers were this year. including in their very impressive win against Cleveland in Cleveland.
I don’t care for the argument suggesting that the Cavs wouldnt be as good if they had kobe instead of Lebron. Teams are built around their superstars. Good teams go after role players who compliment their superstar, as well as the system they run. MJ had Scottie, and after that, the rest of the team was role players who knew their jobs and did them well. Lebron has Mo williams, an all star point guard who can really knock down shots,a 7’3 2 time all star center who is very skilled and is also a knock down shooter. He has energy defense/rebounding guys in Ben Wallace and Anderson Varajeao. He has Wally Sczerbiak (laugh if you want, but hes a former all-star who shot 41% from 3 this year). Add to that Joe Smith and Pavlovic and you have a team that compliments Lebron James game andalso can rally play defense (the Cavs led the league all season long in team defense).
Perhaps Wade deserved the nod over Kobe for first team defense this year, but Kobe is no slouch on the defensive end either. As you mentioned, in Beijing, Kobe was the teams lock down defender, often covering guards the full length of the floor. In those Same Beijiing games, Dwayne Wade had a huge game against Spain, but so did Kobe. If Bryant doesnt hit those 2 3’s late in the 4th quarter Team USA might have gone home with the silver. A few more thoughts….
Why is it that when the lakers were winning championships, it was shaq’s team and shaq is the only reason they won….but when they lose in the finals to the pistons its somehow Kobe’s fault?
I often hear the argument…“Kobe couldnt win after Shaq left”…yea shaq left…so did Fisher, rick fox, karl malone, gary payton. That team was blown up. and yet after one admittedly disappointing season, the Lakers came back the next year and won 45 games and earned the 7th seed in an extremely difficult western conference. Kobe averaged 35.4 points, 5.3 rebounds, and 4.5 assists, and the Lakers won 3 games against the phoenix suns in the playoffs. And he did this with Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown Brian Cook, and Stanislav Medvedenko as his bigs. Smush Parker was his point guard.
Not to take anything away from Dwayne Wade (who i truly think is a terrific player that I dream of seeing in a clipper uniform), but the Miami heat won 15 games last year. He was there for 51 of those games. He won a championship in 2006, on what was easily the worst NBA team to win a championship in my lifetime (Anotoine Walker playing in and winning an NBA championship…wow, paul pierce must ahve been suicidal).
“Kobe’s ceiling was 2005, a year in which he averaged 35 points on a team that won 45 games”…as opposed to Wades statistical high which was this year…on a team that won 43 games.
I refuse to accept Hollingers PER as the deciding factor in who the best players are. Why? Andris Biedrins is not a top 30 player in the NBA, David Lee is not better than Chauncey Billups, and Lamarcus Aldridge is not better than Carmelo Anthony.
Kobe is not a good leader…why? because Bill Simmons thinks so? Because Tayshaun Prince thinks he’s a ball hog? I havent ever heard Pau Gasol or any other current lakers say Kobe was a bad teammate.
"Where is Kobe’s signature playoff performance? Shouldn’t the NBA’s “greatest player” step it up in these moments?"…..how bout the 2000- 2001 playoffs, where kobe averaged 29.4 points, 7.3 rebounds, 6.1 assists, and 1.7 steals, en route to winning a Championship and losing only one game all postseason?
It’s like this…Kobe, Wade, Lebron…they are all fantastic. But to say Kobe is only possibly not even a top 3 player…I think that’s going a little over the top. The guy was the best player on the team that dominated the western conference all season. Boy gets his vitamins. Boy definitely gets his vitamins.
Now that I have, as a clipper fan, defended Kobe Bryant in wiriting, i feel like I have to go take a shower. Thanks a lot mikey p.
"when they lose in the finals to the pistons its somehow Kobe’s fault"
Ask Larry Brown. The strategy was to let Kobe shoot. And he obliged. Shaq’s conditioning played a part, as did Malone’s knee. But Kobe shot them out of the series. Happily, maybe intentionally.
I’m just saying, if you had to pick a player to start a team with TODAY, would it be Kobe or LeBron?
Otherwise, good points.
F-Elton!
Another feather in LBJ's hat
Even at a younger age, he is the better player.
F-Elton!
You miss the point
Both shoothoop and johnnyoc are saying you’re question is flawed. You asked who would you rather start a team with? Common sense dictates that you would start with they younger player assuming skills are similar. Lebron may well be the better player, but that’s not the question you asked above and that’s not what they are responding to.
by Michael White on May 13, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I think ...
The reason that was Browns strategy was because there was nowhere else for the Lakers to go for points. After Malone got hurt, it was Kobe, Shaq, Devean George, Medvedenko, Walton and old man payton, who got completely abused by the pistons guards in that series (Seriously, anyone who wants to make a case against Phil Jackson as a coach should watch that series…he never made any adjustments and was continuously burned by the pistons running screens at the top of the key.. Now I admit Kobe did not play well in that series (thanks in large part to a terrific defensive effort from the pistons). He also wasnt helped by the fact that the Lakers had no 3 point shooters to stretch the defense (Derek Fisher made exactly 4 3’s total in the 4 games they lost, 3 of them in the final game) The pistons did exactly what they should have done, let Shaq get his points, put him on the free throw line when neccessary (shaq missed 17 free throws in the last 2 games of that series….17!), and force Kobe to take a bunch of contested jump shots. That lakers team was just not a great basketball team (Payton led the club in assists with 5.5 …seriously). The pistons should have won that series, and they did. I think the fact that they got to the Finals, beating a pretty good Minnesotta team is a fairly impressive feat on its own.
Michael Jordan was the exception to the rule…a great player who got to the Finals and won every year. Our other greats…Magic, Bird, Duncan, as well as guys like Wade…they lost sometimes (Tim Duncan got swept by the Lakers in the middle of their run…do great players get swept? I guess so, because Duncan is unquestionably great)…Kobe has played in 5 NBA finals, going for 6 this year…that doesnt happen by accident
Again, my point was not to argue that Lebron is not the best player in the league, but rather just to argue that Kobe is in the discussion. I admit that I would pick Lebron If I was starting a team today, but that is factoring in his youth. Like I said, I think he has the potential to be one of the 2 best players ever, but he isnt there yet. As for right now, I think it’s him and Kobe as the 2 best players in the league.
This one made me laugh aloud
I don’t recall Magic, Michael or Larry taunting their opponents.
I suppose you don’t recall the always dignified Dr J. being driven to choke Larry Bird due to Bird’s disrepectful taunting.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
Always dignified Doctor J? Now that's laughable. If you look on youtube you can find a clip of
Barkley pinning Birds arms back while the wonderful Dr. J. puches him in the face. Yeah I’m sure Bird deserved it. After all he was always kicking thier ass.
Uh, ya missed the point
That’s the game I’m talking about.
From the 20 second timeout comments section by the author David Friedman:
As far as I know, Larry Bird is the only player that Dr. J ever took a swing at in a 16 year, 1243 game pro career—and I do think that this says something about Bird.
The story about that game is that Bird was outscoring Erving 42-6 (Bird was at the height of his powers as the NBA MVP, while Erving was still an All-Star at 34 but clearly not the player he had been during his prime). Supposedly, Bird kept saying to Erving, “42-6, Doc” and in addition to that Bird was really roughhousing Erving on defense. The two squared off and Erving later said that he thought Bird was about to swing at him, so he acted on instinct. Erving felt very embarrassed afterward and the next time the teams met he made a point of walking over to Bird and shaking hands to smooth things over. I’ve heard that Erving will not autograph photos of the fight./blockquote>
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on May 12, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, I guess thats it if they only "fought" one time. The time I recall is when Barkely
had his arms pinned back – then Dr. J swung on him. I’m not saying Bird didn’t talk trash, he definetely did. I’m just saying Larry wasn’t swinging on him, and wasn’t about to, especially because of Barkely.
This one only makes me chuckle, but is still poorly reasoned
Put Kobe on this year’s Cleveland squad and it is doubtful that they would pull off 50 wins. (I base this on past performance; Kobe’s highest pre-Gasol win total is 45 games).
You do know that Cleveland’s defense is system driven, right? You can point to their record when Lebron is out, but I’m saying plug in Kobe for Lebron, and that Cleveland defense is just as good, if not better. Varajeo is a great help defender, and even some guys who were bad defenders came to Cleveland and became better at defense, and it wasn’t because of Lebron.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
Sorry
but it was definitely because of LeBron this year. He is now the games best team defender. Watch him next time the Cavs play. He is everywhere.
F-Elton!
You don't have to apologize
Just go read this from Truehoop (by Kevin Arnovitz).
While Kevin doesn’t make the case for the system explicitly this section sure doesn’t seem to be crediting Lebron James for all or most of the Cav’s defense:
Mike Brown, a disciple of Gregg Popovich, insists that his defenders play straight-up position defense. The Cavs don’t gamble a lot (in team steals, you’ll find them in the middle of the pack), don’t trap off the screen/roll very often, and though they doubled Joe Johnson quite a bit in the Atlanta series, they prefer man-to-man defense most nights. If a Cleveland defender gets beat on a screen or off the dribble, there’s an instant rotation, more often than not by Anderson Varejao. For a guy who gives off a lot of hyperkinetic energy, Varejao moves around the court with great purpose. He’s my choice for ROY — Rotator of the Year.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on May 12, 2009 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Why did their defense improve so much this year?
Mo Williams? Or LeBron’s newfound commitment to that side of the ball (for which Kobe’s influence over the summer may deserve credit)?
I totally stand by my point that the Cavs with Kobe instead of LeBron would NOT be as good.
F-Elton!
Gotcha
Their defense was very good back in 2006-07, before Lebron’s improvement (over Kobe I’m assuming)
From Basketball-reference.com
Cleveland Defensive Rating:
2008-2009 102.4 (3rd in league)
2007-2008 106.4 (11th in league)
2006-2007 101.3 (4th in league)
2005-2006 105.4 (14th in league)
So three seasons ago, Cleveland was just as good at defense, back when Lebron was supposedly not a very good defender. Unless you’re going to Lebron was a better defender than Kobe even back then.
How is it that Cleveland was so good defensively three years ago? System.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on May 12, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess it's only two seasons ago
But the message here is that Lebron must have had that commitment to defense in 06-07, lost it 07-08 and regained it in 08-09.
OR the team was always good at defense, even when Lebron was not regarded as a good defender, so by that measure having Kobe in as a defender would not have hurt the team, as he is considered at least a good defender.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on May 12, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Apparently
06/07 Defensive Rating LeBron James-CLE 100.3 (15th best)
Defensive Win-Shares LeBron James-CLE 5.6 (5th best)
07/08 Defensive Rating LeBron James-CLE (not in top 20)
Defensive Win-Shares LeBron James-CLE 4.4 (13th best)
08/09 Defensive Rating LeBron James-CLE 99.1 (3rd best)
Defensive Win Shares LeBron James-CLE 6.3 (2nd best)
So, as you can see, LeBron’s defense went down last year, and then way up this year, as did the teams defense.
BTW, Kobe ranks much lower on both lists.
F-Elton!
I know this is going to sound convenient
But I’ve been consistent over at SSR about not putting as much stock in the individual stat as in the teams stats. That’s because the individual stats require assigning some value to each player which is subjective (for example even blocks and steals are subjective, as some of these require the interaction of more than one defensive player).
And yet if you want to believe the individual ratings, Cleveland’s defensive rating was 4th in 06-07 when Lebron’s was 15th, and is now 3rd in 08-09 when Lebron’s is 3rd. The team’s defense in 07-08 dropped to only 11th when Lebron dropped out of the top 20.
So that would indicate to me that the defense is not that responsive to Lebron’s improvements and declines.
Unwittingly, you’ve supported my argument.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on May 13, 2009 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
One last nail in the coffin
You wrote:
Sorry
but it was definitely because of LeBron this year. He is now the games best team defender.
Cleveland had the 3rd best defensive rating this year.
And yet, when Lebron was not the game’s best defender two years ago, Cleveland had the 4th best defensive rating.
It seems to me that Cleveland had a great defense already supporting Lebron. Unless Lebron was already the game’s best defender two years ago. In which case you’ve contradicted yourself.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on May 13, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
You can keep building all of the coffins you like
I know what I see, and this year, LeBron has been a terror on the defensive end, and his team has fed off of it.
F-Elton!
I don't think you have demonstrated that
But I can see this going to go around and around, so I’ll just shut it down here.
I’ve presented my argument using defensive rating statistics, turned your argument around by showing that Cleveland’s defensive rating has been 4th, 11th, and 3rd for the last three years (even before Lebron’s improvement), and yet, it comes down to "you know what you see’.
Thanks for debating.
And no, I didn’t present my argument for Kobe, because of your response above which is “you know what you see”, and yet my “I know what I see” was obviously not sufficient below.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on May 13, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
That's fine
You made an assertion:
plug in Kobe for Lebron, and that Cleveland defense is just as good, if not betterthen gave us some numbers about Clevelands defense from two years ago (?), ignoring the marked improvement from last year to this, which DID directly corrolate with LeBron’s improvement (not sure why the “system” defense with almost the exact same roster this year as last struggled comparitively, but whatever), and then I basically gave up with you and said “just watch LeBron, he’s pretty good this year”.
We have reached an impasse, and still, you haven’t shown how or why Kobe’s defense would result in an improvement.
However, I cannot prove my original statement:
Put Kobe on this year’s Cleveland squad and it is doubtful that they would pull off 50 winsbut I believe it nonetheless. LeBron had one of the greastes individual seasons ever, and carried an otherwise marginal team to the league’s best record, something Kobe has yet to do in his longer tenured career.
Basketball debates are fun.
F-Elton!
We'll just have to disagree
Because I disagree with the statement that Lebron’s team is an “otherwise marginal team” (again, using the defensive rating of Cleveland’s teams in the past years).
Show me a Kobe team with those defensive ratings, and I’ll show you a winning team (like this year’s Lakers). Kobe’s teams (post-Shaq) in the past have not had those types of defensive ratings, as it takes five to play defense. You can argue Kobe hasn’t had a team with that sort of defense because of Kobe, and I can accept that.
It’s a chicken or the egg question: Which came first, Cleveland’s great defense, or Lebron’s great defense?
It seems to be the mode or argument on both sides to knock the team they have to show how great each is ( I do it all the time “look at how bad Kwame Brown and Smush Parker were!”), but to me, it seems a little tougher to knock the supporting characters on a 67 win team, as history has shown that just about any 60 win team was heavily supported by good (offensive and defensive) players. But hey, Lebron could be the exception.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on May 13, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Your argument was that Kobe would make CLE's defense better
I fail to see where that case has been made.
F-Elton!
I know what I see
And Cleveland’s defense would be just as potent with Kobe as it is with Lebron.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on May 13, 2009 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
You Guys have Room to Talk?? That's almost Funny.
The funniest thing about all of this, is that every time the ball is in Kobe’s hands, all of you Clippers fans go, “…oh no, not again…”. Every time Kobe touches the ball, you think he is going to score. If someone sucked, and wasn’t that good, then you wouldn’t talk all of this crap about him; you just don’t like the fact of what he has acheived. He’s got more MVP’s than all of the Clipper’s Organization put together: 1-0.
He is the best shooter in the NBA.
The best Clutch Shooter in the NBA.
You want to bring up 82games.com? Then you better get the point:
Kobe was number one. He hits those shots, he finds open people, he is CLUTCH.
You know what else I found out? The Clippers haven’t won a season series with the Lakers since the 1974 Season. So quit talkin’.
Playoffs anyone?
I think not.
We’ll see you next year at Staples. (One ring later…)
Kobe doesn't suck
Nobody is trying to say he does. It was written to challenge the knee-jerk assertion by the media that he is the NBA’s best player today.
And it was written to bait cry-baby Lakers fans who are clearly nervous about their chances this year.
F-Elton!
Clearly...
they are nervous and very well should be. This could be the end of the road for this Laker team with the impending departure of Odom and Ariza, along with the chronic injuries to Bynum. But that is a whole other post I suppose.
Like you said, this is a challenge of the normal thinking that Kobe is the best….which as usual is open to debate. Laker fans are not accustomed to criticism, especially when it comes to their anointed one Kobe “she never said no” Bryant. Any time anyone says anything about their team or their players, they immediately point to all the banners on the wall, or how many accolades their players have won, instead of actually listening to the argument and engaging everyone in a civilized manner.
Keep up the good work Mikey.
Do or do not. There is no try.
If it is an agrument between the Lakers or Clippers
the Lakers are clearly the better franchise, Jerry Buss is clearly better than Donald Sterling, and Jack Nicholson is way cooler than Billy Crystal.
But that is not what we were talking about.
F-Elton!
Agree....
Some people are missing the point of the post…..is Kobe the best player in the league RIGHT NOW? I think that answer is pretty clear (as do you)….NO.
Do or do not. There is no try.
You and I say NO
Some people even have it open for debate, which is fine.
But there are many on TV, radio, ESPN, etc. that have Kobe’s supremacy as a foregone conclusion. I am merely arguing against that.
F-Elton!
I don't know why you're Butt-hurt
Everyone knows kobe is good, why cry about it?
Are you the hot girl who has to be constantly reminded that you’re not ugly or are you the retarded kid who can’t understand the basic nature of a debate?
I think it’s the latter.
FYI, I bought 10 laker flags for my car..
"I can think of no player who has combined such size and speed (in any sport, for that matter)."
Well I think Jonah Lomu was faster and stronger before his kidney problems, but I don’t know anything about the leap. (Lomu played for the All Blacks rugby)
Bo Jackson is the greatest athlete I have ever seen
speed x power wise.
Don’t know Lomu.
F-Elton!
It's always an interesting debate when......................
The fans of a team one player torments and decimates year after year can go against conventional thinking and see that player as not being “the best” in the league. Clipper fans don’t see Kobe as the best player in the league? How shocking!
It’s also interesting how the same fan base were so quick to become the lap dogs of that very same player they denigrate and “hate” so much when he toyed with the thought of actually coming to their team and attempting to stop the decades of mediocrity that siad team has wallowed in?
what bothers you more? The cheers that drown out the boos for the Lakers at every Clipper home game they play? The fact that the only time the Clippers can sell out a home game is when the Lakers are the opponents? The fact that midway through this season they just gave up and stopped changing the colors in Staples center from Purple and Gold to Red and White when the Clippers had home games?
But none of that has anything to do with your feelings on Kobe, right?
Embarrassing, really.
It all bothers me equally...
Thank you for asking.
By the way, what’s this about ‘changing the colors’? They’ve never changed anything other than the floor. What the hell are you talking about?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on May 14, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh please. At the start of every season there are more banners and colors of the “Clipper Nation” throughout the Staples Center but as the season goes on and reality starts to set in (usually around game what? 12? 13? the people involved with Staples don’t even make the effort to make it look like the Clippers house. You don’t even get the “home court advantage” in your own home, because it’s not!
And this doesn’t taint your feelings about Kobe again why?
Puh-leeze.
by DJ Bento Box on May 14, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
DJ, here we go again. Now your here defending Kobe. Last time I saw you,
you were screwering me over at the Houston site for supporting the Rockets. And lo and behold your on the Celtics site suporting the Celtics. What’s up with you? Like to dish but can’t take.
Here’s the problem with Kobe. Everyone wants ot compare him to MJ – including Kobe. Most people think MJ was the greatest player ever. Therefore, Kobe and all of his supporters believe Kobe is the greatest player ever.
If you took a list of the so-called greatest 50 and in their prime could pick ala a pick up game. Kobe doesn’t get picked first, or second, or third. And so on. Maybe in your mind he does. Maybe in LF’s mind he does.
Kobe’s not the greatest, wasn’t and isn’t, LBJ is better. Besides, the problem with Kobe is his attitude. How many people that have played with Kobe would consider him a friend?
No dimwit, I was kicked off the Rockets site because just like typical pathetic fanatics, their team was getting it handed to them and because I was questioning the “heart” and “toughness” of the squad they did so much yapping about in the win the game before, I was banned. That’s is the definition of dishing it but not being able to take it.
By the way, why are you stalking me? Don’t you know cyber-stalking is illegal? I understand I may have made quite an impression on you from my writing in the past, but I don’t roll “that way”. Sorry man.
by DJ Bento Box on May 14, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Congratulations...
You’ve been banned here too. We don’t really do homophobia, but have fun with that.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on May 14, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks Steve, I responded to a story on the Houston site about T.J. Simers and I said I liked
his columns in the Times and this guy comes in and does a total nut job. Then someone else comes in and and says calm down. Then he does a total nut job on him. So I tell him I post on Clipper Nation because I’m a STH and lo and behold he’s here.
I don’t mean to gloat, but I’m glad to see him go.
Hahahahah You got Banned!! That's amazing! So hard to believe. I thought it
was because you (unlike Kobe) only know how to dish! Funny stuff. Made my day.
It’s ok, my point was made. We whipped the stuffing out of the Rockets and all the talking they were doing about the Lakers and puffing their chests about the Rockets meant jack and they couldn’t handle it. So who looks worse? Typical “I’m taking my ball and going home” mentality by the crybabies who run The Dream Shake. My girl and I had a good laugh when it was happening.
She wanted to know why they were acting like little bitches. Hilarious.
by DJ Bento Box on May 14, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok tough guy
I’ll bet this dude is about 5’1" in heels
And now?
Let’s see, Lakers now 1-2 against the Rockets, without Yao, without TMac, without Motumbo, starting a 6’6" center. Impressive.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on May 15, 2009 1:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Hey, I've been posting my support of the Rockets on their site, but I might as
well do it here. What a team! What energy! Think about it, how long has it been since anyones seen such a depleted team play with so much heart? Everyones giving props to Morey for putting this all together, but I think credit needs to go around. Especially to the owner who enabled Morey et al to go forward.
The Houston fans are lucky. A good owner, a good GM, a good (perhaps great this series) coach, good (great the way they’re playing) players. It’s been the most fun series to watch. That being said, I don’t see them getting by the Lakers in game 7. But I see Denver beating the Lakers.
One last. How about Kobes “all my teammates suc*” face?
Yeah the Rockets have shown some real guts
No one would have blamed them if they had just gone down in games 4 and 5 but they wanted to win. The Rockets should be a model for all teams with lots of injuries (namely the clippers) they play as hard as they can even if they don’t have everyone.
In Gordon we trust
I've looked at your comment a few times not even sure how to reply because it's so obvious.
Not that you made it, just that you point out how poorly the Clippers performed because of “injuries.” I guess it’s hard to quantify heart, Houstons got it, Clippers don’t.
If we played like the rockets did this series even with injuries
we definitely would not be looking on this season as a failure. Hopefully Baron and the rest of the team is watching and maybe it inspires them or something (not likely).
In Gordon we trust
by bestclipfan on May 16, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
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