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Around SBN: Carmelo Anthony, Amar'e Stoudemire Vow To Fit In With Lin

Blake Griffin at the Combine - Crunching the Numbers

Now that all of the numbers are in from the Chicago draft combine, I wanted to take some time and put Blake Griffin into the context of some of the other draft prospects of recent years.  The reason Griffin is a consensus number one pick, beyond the simple fact that he was far and away the best player in college last season with the numbers to prove it, is because he appears to be a combination of size and athleticism rarely seen, if ever.  So, do the numbers bear that out?

DraftExpress published the static measurements (height, weight, wingspan, etc.) five days before the measurements of what I'll call athleticism (vertical leap, agility, etc.) which are now available.  Griffin's standing height measured out about as expected - his college-listed 6'10" in shoes.  But because he's not long in the way that makes NBA scouts drool, a few eyebrows were raised (even if no one even hinted that he would drop out of the top spot in the draft).  Jonathan Givony of DraftExpress went as far as explaining exactly how comparatively NOT long Griffin was:

Blake Griffin measured out well from a height perspective, but he doesn’t appear to have great length at all. His standing reach and wingspan are both far below average for a power forward, which likely helps explain why he is such an unimposing defender and shot-blocker. In fact, amongst the 42 power forwards in our database who were selected as top-15 picks, Griffin is just a quarter of an inch from ranking dead last in the wingspan category, and an inch from ranking dead last in standing reach. Yikes.

I suppose the 'yikes' is meant to scare people, but I doubt that many are. 

Griffin's measurements are his measurements, and I suppose he would be an even more enticing prospect if he was BIG and ATHLETIC and SKILLED and LONG.  But LeBron James may be the only player in the history of the draft that can be said to be exemplary in all four of those dimensions - and if I were forced to pick only three out of the four, length is the one I'd omit.  Some NBA players have used their freakish length to become much better than expected pros - Rajon Rondo comes to mind.  More often it seems, players get measured at the combines, scouts find out how enticingly long they are, and they quickly rise in the draft, only to be disappointments compared to their draft position - think Darko Milicic and Tyrus Thomas.  I'm not saying length isn't desirable - there's no question that it matters on defense, particularly on blocking and bothering shots, and on getting deflections in passing lanes.  But length is useless if the guy can't play.

Since Givony went to the trouble of showing some lists where Griffin was near the bottom, I figured maybe I'd balance that using the same DraftExpress data and showing Griffin at the top.

Strength - As measured by bench press reps (I believe the task is to press 185 pounds as many times as you can), Griffin is the 5th strongest drafted player since they began tracking this number.  That's out of about 340 drafted players.

Agility - The lane agility test, in which the player runs forward, sideways and backward around the lane (you can see footage of Griffin taking the test at the beginning of this clip) is the best empirical measure of a player's quickness, and in particular their lateral movement, which is the key to on ball defense.  For first round picks over 6'10", Griffin had the second best score ever recorded, behind only Nene.  He got the same score in the agility test as Shane Battier, a pretty good wing defender.  This is why Olshey and MDsr say Griffin can play small forward.

Vertical leap - Both his standing vertical leap and his maximum vertical leap are impressive for a guy his size.  Al Thornton's 41" max vertical is one of the best ever recorded at the combine.  Blake Griffin is getting a lot more bulk off the ground 35.5".  For first round picks 6'10" or taller, it's the sixth best vertical leap on the database.

Let's compare Griffin's numbers to some existing NBA players.  On more than one occasion I have referred to Griffin as "Amare Stoudemire with a work ethic."  And looking at the vertical leap data, some interesting names immediately jump out at me:  Amare Stoudemire and Dwight Howard both measured out with Griffin's same max vert of 35.5".

 

Name Height Height
(Shoes)
Weight Wingspan Reach Body
Fat
No Step
Vert
No Step
Reach
Max
Vert
Max
Reach
Bench Agility Sprint Rank Drafted
Amare 6'8.5" 6'10" 233 7'1.75" 9'0.5" NA 32 11'8.5" 35.5" 12'0" 12 11.19 3.25 12 9
Howard 6'9" 6'10.25" 240 7'4.5" 9'3.5" NA 30.5" 11'10" 35.5" 12'3" 7 11.21 3.14 29 1
Griffin 6"8.5" 6'10" 248 6'11.25" 8'9" 8.2 32 11'5" 35.5" 11'8.5" 22 10.95 3.28 NA 1

 

It's hard not to get pretty excited looking at some of these numbers.  Obviously, both Amare Stoudemire and Dwight Howard are indeed longer than Griffin (Dwight is much longer).  But looking at Amare (after all, Howard is a freak and plays center to boot so that comparison is a little unfair), Griffin runs a mere 3.5 inches below Stat across the board.  So he can only jump up to 11'8.5" and not all the way to 12 feet.  That's still some thin air.  But look at the other numbers - Griffin is bigger, stronger and more agile than either of these NBA all pros!  (And I know, these are combine numbers that measured high schoolers Howard and Stoudemire as teenagers, while Griffin is older.  For the record, Amare was 19 years and 7 months old when he was measured, Howard was 18 years and 6 months, and Griffin is currently 20 years and 2 months.  So while I'll allow that the other guys got stronger, there's plenty of reason to believe that Griffin can get stronger also.)  All in all, I'd say he's pretty much what we were hoping he'd be and then some.  I didn't really expect him to compare so favorably with Dwight Howard, for instance. 

I'll close with one final thought on the subject of length.  Scouts are currently going nutso about 22 year old Hasheem Thabeet.  With his delicious 7'6.5" wingspan and his imposing 9'5" standing reach, he has a legitimate shot to be the second player picked in the draft, despite his almost complete lack of an offensive game.  Guess what?  The Clippers DeAndre Jordan, who is not yet 21, has a 7'6" wingspan and a 9'5.5" standing reach.  So if length is the be all end all (which of course it's not), then it might dampen your enthusiasm for Blake Griffin, but you can console yourself in dreams of DeAndre Jordan becoming a dominant defensive presence.

 

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Jinx..

well steve it looks like you and I were on the same page at the same time….granted one of ours has drawn out a little more then the other.

attention to last paragraph…

http://boards.espn.go.com/boards/mb/mb?sport=nba&id=lac&tid=4850146&lid=0

by Takebb909 on Jun 3, 2009 1:34 PM PDT reply actions  

well played citizen

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jun 3, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Elton Brand is freaky long

I always knew, but I didn’t really know how much.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Jun 3, 2009 1:38 PM PDT reply actions  

Freaky long

He also has no neck. So in a way he ‘measures’ shorter than he is.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jun 3, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

DeAndre Jordan

And to think we got DJ in the 2nd round whilst Thabeet is going for the 2nd pick? Just proves how lucky we were to get DJ !

But who has more offensive upside? DJ generally only scored on alley-oops and dunks.

by Natedog1977 on Jun 3, 2009 4:00 PM PDT reply actions  

But at the price of a 2nd round pick

DJ should be a steal, seeing as how much hype he got before he entered college.

Hell, i think that the only reason DeAndre even got drafted last year was because of his hype he got, afterall, he really didnt play that wel in college.

by JackduhSun on Jun 3, 2009 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

DJ is a total project

but then so is Thabeet. I’m still bullish on Jordan. I think he will be a productive rebounder and shot blocker. If he adds a move or two to his offensive game, he will be a nice player.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Jun 3, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Griffin is a better athlete than what he showed at the combine.

1. His no step vertical was already 32". He should be able to get atleast 6 inches more if given some momentum before going into his jump. I don’t know why he tried to go off of one foot on this test. It seems like he kind of whiffed on hitting the vertical measurement flaps.

2. His 3/4 court dash. He didn’t really seem to be trying at all. The commentators said he was coasting perhaps due to the sore back at the combine.

by seabisquick on Jun 3, 2009 4:04 PM PDT reply actions  

He had no incentive...

There was pretty much nothing he could do to not be the top pick. Still, he seems to be the sort who likes to do his best regardless.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jun 3, 2009 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just showing up took guts

He could only go down, not up. And of course his reach was picked apart by the stat nerds.

Shows that he was confident in how he would perform. I think he is the real deal.

F-Elton!

by mikey p on Jun 3, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

DeAndre Jordan is my man

May he retire a Clipper (on a positive note).

by Newton Pham on Jun 3, 2009 5:34 PM PDT reply actions  

Nice Comparison

DJ v. Thabeet. DJ may never amount to much, but he’s a great ace in the hole for very little risk.

by ghost_ride on Jun 3, 2009 5:53 PM PDT reply actions  

I’ll close with one final thought on the subject of length. Scouts are currently going nutso about 22 year old Hasheem Thabeet. With his delicious 7’6.5" wingspan and his imposing 9’5" standing reach, he has a legitimate shot to be the second player picked in the draft, despite his almost complete lack of an offensive game. Guess what? The Clippers DeAndre Jordan, who is not yet 21, has a 7’6" wingspan and a 9’5.5" standing reach. So if length is the be all end all (which of course it’s not), then it might dampen your enthusiasm for Blake Griffin, but you can console yourself in dreams of DeAndre Jordan becoming a dominant defensive presence.

One of the greatest paragraphs ever.

But length is useless if the guy can’t play.
Greatest line ever.

by FlyByKnight on Jun 3, 2009 11:17 PM PDT reply actions  

Need a DeAndre piece

Hey! Good to be back, lots of good stuff over the past week.

Breakdown of Griffin is excellent, and it seems as if everybody agrees wholeheartedly. Nobody is concerned about Griffin.

But everybody is intrigued by the DJordan/Thabeet comparison. DJordan is a great topic. He’s a crucial piece in the Clipper trade discussions—not because anybody is talking about trading him, but because if either Kaman or Camby is traded, he becomes a rotation player. He was never mentioned by the MSM in the cursory discussion of Clipper needs leading up to the lottery, when some were speculating that they might be interested in Thabeet. I’ve wondered elsewhere whether he shouldn’t have received considerably more playing time in the lost season of 08-09, but that sequence and the possibility for significantly more minutes could still be worked out in greater detail.

It must be a sign of genuine roster depth on the Clippers that we’ve spent very little time talking and analyzing DeAndre Jordan. It takes a while, and one has to cover a lot of ground, before you get to him. Has he been mentioned by anybody in the MSM? And SP is exactly right—he’s very much a carbon copy of Thabeet. The question is: can DJordan possibly be a much better basketball player than Thabeet?

Obviously DJordan has all sorts of rough edges and primitive elements in his game. He gets a lot of dunks. He rebounds. He can block shots at times. He has great length. How do his other combine numbers, such as strength and agility, match up with Thabeet?

One hopes that DJordan made a lot of progress over the course of last year in learning about positioning on defense. Making even greater progress in defense and rebounding is job one, two, and three for DJordan. Look at Dwight Howard, starting the finals tonight, and you see the impact of a player with great size, strength and athleticism who plays defense, rebounds, and dunks. Howard’s lack of a more sophisticated offensive game is rather startling, especially when it’s matched against his effectiveness.

But there are some signs and elements of DJordan’s situation that suggest he might be develop a solid offensive game. One thing I look at is the development of Kaman’s offense, under the tutelage of Kim Hughes. Kaman, going against the core philosophy, does much too much, as we all know, spinning, going under the basket for a reverse when he could dunk, endlessly turning the ball over. But in theory Kaman’s game is wildly diverse and impressive. It’s not as polished and impressive as Pau Gasol’s, but it approaches that level.

One thing we don’t have to worry about with DJordan is dunking. He loves to explode to the rim and throw it down. We can see the value of this in the fact that Kaman doesn’t do it well, or enough. Kaman began with little more than bad habits and a penchant for turnovers, although he always he a soft left-handed touch around the basket. Interestingly, DJordan has the same thing. Of course, he’s not right-handed in the complex way that Kaman is, but that’s a good thing—keep it simple.

At any rate, the Clips have a good big man coach in Kim Hughes, and DJordan should be making a ton of progress. He will be very fun to watch on the evolving, exciting Clipper summer league team.

Another thing to look at are the goals for DJordan’s growth and progress. Camby is on an expiring deal—so DJordan might take his spot in the rotation next year, or even earlier if the Clippers fail to contend (no way!) and he is shipped out. Remember that Denver was supposed to miss Camby this year, but if they had Camby the Birdman Experience would have been very different. Camby’s status seems well-timed to DJordan’s growth curve. I’ll finish by saying that DJordan occupied the #1 spot in my Do Nothing breakdown, since he’s not ready yet. But he’s worthy of a lot more comment and analysis here and elsewhere.

by citizen zhiv on Jun 4, 2009 6:57 AM PDT reply actions  

Apparently Thabeet refused to participate in the strength and agility drills...

There had to be a reason for that. I guess it’s one more reason to like DJ and downgrade Thabeet… but, the problem is, we saw DeAndre a lot last year (though maybe not enough as you point out)… and he often looked lost out there.

by John Raffo on Jun 4, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you know that?

Are you just inferring from the fact that there is no data on thabeet? obviously it’s strange, but I never saw anything that said he refused to participate, and it would be strange certainly when everyone else did it and he didn’t. Not sure if it’s a red flag or not. Has anyone seen any explanation of why Thabeet isn’t included?

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jun 4, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

MIssed this...

I definitely read it somewhere… I’ll see if I can retrace my steps.

by John Raffo on Jun 5, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

From Chad Ford's most recent chat:

“Kantad (NYC): Chad: Do you think Thabeet might really go at #2, and if so, does OKC have any good deals for Rubio?
SportsNation Chad Ford: Yes. I think that’s the most obvious scenario if the Grizzlies keep the pick .. a big if at this point. One note on Thabeet, he was the only player to skip all of the athletic testing. He didn’t do vertical jump, lane agility, nothing. That’s disappointing."

There are other references floating around using phrases like “opted not to participate” or “chose not to perform”.

by John Raffo on Jun 5, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

That is interesting...

I guess when you can ‘ace’ the task of just standing there, you can only go downhill if they ask you to, you know, move. But still – the only guy who choose not to be measured? It’s suspicious.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jun 5, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

He did look lost

That’s part of why I emphasized defensive positioning. And go ahead and add in offensive rebounding too. He was very raw. But if he can figure out where he’s supposed to be on defense, and how he’s supposed to move his feet, that’s more than half the battle.

Let’s not forget that Thabeet is projected as the #2 pick! It seems crazy.

by citizen zhiv on Jun 4, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

If Thabeet refused...

Perhaps he has a promise from someone?

'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!

by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Jun 4, 2009 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think the major difference between thabeet and DJ is that thabeet (supposedly) is a good post defender which is the difference between a bench warmer and a rotation player, at least for most teams.

by andrewexd on Jun 4, 2009 7:30 PM PDT reply actions  

Agreed

But defense can be taught. Length cannot.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jun 4, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

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