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A Few Thoughts on Iverson


Monsieur Perrin is probably poolside preparing a post on this, although he might have gotten hung up at the breakfast buffet, and who knows what he might have been up to last night, with his new access to NBA players, coaches, writers etc. and all.  We have nothing but good news from yesterday, and Club Optimism is riding high.  In the morning desert sun the amazing debut of Blake Griffin is being overshadowed by the confirmations of Clipper talks with Allen Iverson.  There's an existing fanpost thread that has some good comments, but I thought I'd put my own observations on the main page to spur further discussion, as we have a lot of time, still buoyed by yesterday's enthusiasm, before the Super Summer Experience Game #2 tonight.

After the jump. 

Star-divide

Don't we have to assume that the Clippers are a playoff team if they sign Iverson?  The best thing is that they would be using their mid-level to add a major, all-star piece on the semi-cheap, for only one year, thus preserving next season's capspace and adding a tradeable expiring contract if the wheels come off for the umpteenth time.  There are all sorts of comments on this, but perhaps the main thing to remember is that the Clippers have nowhere to go but up.

The latest report (ESPN, Chris Sheridan) is that, not in quite so many words, Iverson is going to meet with MDSr and they will discuss what his role on the team would be.  MDSr knows how to deal with wily, complex veterans, and I haven't seen anyone mention yet the way that the Cassell deal worked out for the Clips, and that's probably a good place to focus.  Perhaps we forget about the success of the Cassell-Mobley move because of the tension between BDavis and MDSr and last year's disaster, but it's worth remembering the initial skepticism about Cassell and Mobley, that they were seen as problematic players, and under MDSr they quickly became accepted as crafty, aging vets.  Last year's horrendous debacle is increasingly being portrayed as a combination of a ridiculous number of injuries, coming upon horrible injuries the previous 18 months (Liv, FElton), with fractured, impossible chemistry from having so many new players.  The conceit proposed by BDavis, with none of us knowing if he can still be a very good, let alone great player, that his first year at GSW was nightmarish but the team gelled magnificently in his second year, is still well within the realm of possibility, with its chances growing every day.

We're so excited about the young talent on the team, led by the fabulous G-ns, with DJordan playing well alongside them, that it's hard to think of the veterans, especially after last season's debacle.  The pertinent vets are Baron Davis and Marcus Camby.  Camby, solid NBA citizen that he is, was known to be close with AI in Denver, he's hanging out in Vegas (with Steve Perrin, no doubt), and he would have to be seen as a positive influence on the arrival of Iverson, both of them on essentially one-year deals.  And before last season's meltdown by both players, what would we have thought of a Baron Davis-Allen Iverson backcourt at this time last year?  Now both are looking for redemption.  They want to reestablish their cred, and like Camby, they're perennial playoff contenders, they want to win games, get through the regular season, then see where they stand in the playoffs and take their best shot.  For Clipper fans, that's a pretty awesome scenario for the upcoming season, especially when one considers, again, last season and how there's nowhere to go but up.

The other good news is that Eric Gordon has firmly established his credentials and central role on the team and in its future.  It would be different if Iverson was being traded (to a team with Rip Hamilton).  In this case, it's his choice. He would be signing with a team that has oft-injured, including last year, Baron Davis, and young stud Eric Gordon, both solid starters, but a team with no firmly established third guard.  The minutes are there, and the only question is how they're going to be distributed.  The good news is the way that MDSr seems to be handling it, that there's going to be a meeting to discuss exactly how things would work, what AI's possible role might be.  It's not a sudden, leave the dinner with Beno Udrih to sign Baron Davis situation, complicated by potential mediator FElton's horrible defection.  It's a deliberate process, with no surprises.

And as a one-year deal, AI would not get in Eric Gordon's way and slow his development.  AI would be insurance against BDavis injury, mediocrity, or whatever.  AI is insurance against even a minimal sophomore slump by Gordon, who won't sneak up on anybody this year.  At the same time, unless I'm mistaken, Gordon is still not old enough to drink, and we don't know that he can hit big shots in crunch time and win games.  Baron Davis, when he's playing good basketball, can do that quite well, and Iverson can do it even better.  Again, it's worth remembering that before the arrival of Cassell the Clippers had an impossible time closing out games.  Gordon, after getting only 19 wins last season, has a long way to go before gaining the experience and nerve to get there.  We all believe that he will, but it would still be a learning process for him in his second season, along with Blake Griffin going through his own rookie paces.  Adding AI would make the Clippers much more competitive in the short term.

And being competitive, becoming a playoff team, and even just signing AI for this single year rental, would also make the Clippers a more attractive destination for a major free agent, wouldn't it?  As always, this is an optimistic scenario, and we know all too well that optimism is a wildly inappropriate stance to take with the Clippers.  It's the Clippers, Steve.  So, lastly--what do they have to lose?  If Zach Randolph is a good two-year fit on the Grizzlies, if wacky Ron Artest is a viable 3-year replacement for younger, versatile, humble championship cog Trevor Ariza, if Vince Carter replaces Hedo TurkoGlu on the EC champ Magic, is there a downside to adding AI to the rejuvenated Clips, with Blake Griffin miraculously bringing them back from last year's zombie status?  If there is, I don't see it yet.  But let me know.

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Still not convinced that AI isn’t more trouble than he’s worth (and I want nothing to stand in the way of Gordon’s development), but the Cassell comparison is an apt one to describe the optimistic outcome of this potential scenario.

And — nice Chinatown reference.

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Jul 14, 2009 11:18 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hmmmm...

I wonder if adding AI now will help us resign Camby. Say what you will about his limited offense, but Camby is all-class and a great veteran to have on any team…especially a young team like the Clips. This bit alone could make it worth it.

by banandy on Jul 14, 2009 11:19 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Love the "Beno Uribe" part

Is he Dominican?

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 14, 2009 11:19 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice, mp

I zhived that one pretty nicely. I knew there was something wrong there.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 14, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like a great baseball name

“At shortstop, Beno Uribe”

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 14, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lineups?

What do you think of a possible second unit with AI? Is this a high-octane Denver Nuggets-type crew reincarnated from two years ago?

Starters: Baron, EG, Thornton, Blake, Kaman
Second unit: AI, Ricky, Q, Novak, Camby

by banandy on Jul 14, 2009 11:23 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

No, no, no

Starters: Baron, Gordon, Thornton, Blake, Kaman
Bench: AI, Q, Novak, Camby, DJ

http://lucasnbablog.blogspot.com/

by LJ Hann on Jul 14, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha

Works for me

by banandy on Jul 14, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No Ricky

I think he’s played his last Clipper minute. Funny LJHann beat me to it.

I don’t see AI on the Clippers yet, but I would add Blake on any lineup that has AI on it. AI= lots of shots, mostly boards. Perfect for Blake.

by eelcova on Jul 14, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

True.

Blake could get most of his just cleaning up.

by banandy on Jul 14, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Criminy

Knew that wasn’t quite right either.

Bad on names, good on it’s/its and complement/compliment.

Any thoughts on AI, moKi?
And you too mp?

by citizen zhiv on Jul 14, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Guess you could look at it this way...

Getting a backup guard that’s a multi All Star and poss Hall of Famer, still in good condition (maybe minus the “quickness” some league execs say he’s lost…) for 5M at a one year rental – how can you say no? Especially seeing Mike T yesterday??? I love MTs potential but yesterday’s game didn’t seem to show much improvement. Still way too out of control and way too many turnovers.

OK so AI is not the traditional point guard, right? More of a scorer? Well, I guess here’s where Mardy Collins comes off the bench behind Thornton and you play Nellie’s Jackson-Ellis style, where your SF is bringing the ball up or handling distribution while your PG scores. Or maybe EJ becomes primary ball handler/distributor? It would be amazing if Gordon developed point guard skills and turned into a Deron or Chris Paul in the future (he has the same type of height/build…).

I know there’s a lot of fear in Clipsnation about AI hurting team chemistry, cAnswer, bad practice guy, not happy coming off the bench. BUT he did say he was fine with it if the team was winning – so if the Clips are winning with him coming off the bench, maybe he’s ok with it? (I think in Detroit he thought they had a better chance of winning if he started over Stuckey.) Also, he was traded into that situation last year. This year he would be CHOOSING to come off the bench, CHOOSING to sign with a team where he knows, even before training camp, that he will be the sixth man – ala Jason Terry.

So here’s my take-

Manny Ramirez

Unpredictable “bad teammate” joins an already good squad and makes them even better.

Not saying the Clippers will do as well as the Dodgers in the WL column but I think it’s kind of similar, not exactly but in a round about way – AI-Clippers could be just as good as Manny-Dodgers?

by moKi on Jul 14, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

if he works hard,

 taylor might get that much coveted record for most turnovers in a summer league career.

so we got that goin for us…

Clippers Basketball.... It's Masochistic!

by Clipochistic on Jul 14, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

...on a serious note

I think AI would be a great insurance policy, especially on a 1-year contract. I think EJ’s development would be even better if he understands that someone with AI’s history could start ahead of him & he can still play starters minutes, probably be up for sixth man & help the team. If AI is not working out wonderfully by mid-year, imagine what an expiring contract at the MLE would be worth!!!

My lineup:
Starters: Baron, EG, Q, BG, Camby (I know I said start AI above, but this is my preferred rotation)
Bench: AI, Thornton, Kaman (DJ, Taylor & Novak, when necessary)

by Zer0 on Jul 14, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

“AI would be a great insurance policy.”
Just like Ricky Davis and J-Will were last year? AI is not the kind of player that can just be stashed away as insurance. If he signs, then he will be a significant part of the team either as a starter or 6th man, or he’ll be an outcast and a distraction. There’s really not much middle ground with him.

by ClipCat on Jul 14, 2009 12:41 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

17.5 ppg, 5 apg, 78 ftp in his WORST year...

Blow away RD’s or J-Will’s stats in their best years. Also beats everyone on last year’s squad, except maybe Zach. Even his 41 fgp is respectable amongst the guards.

by Zer0 on Jul 14, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Iverson put up those stats as a starter (53 of 57 games) playing 36.7 minutes per game and chucking up almost 15 shots a game. That’s clearly not what we want from Iverson if Baron and Gordon are healthy. Gordon is a far more efficient scorer (.593 TS% vs .504) and stronger defensive presence, while Baron for better or worse is our starting PG going into this season. His poor play last year is not really a good argument for signing Iverson.

As a reserve, Iverson was mostly MIA during the end of the season and the playoffs when his team needed him the most, and he was much more of a nuissance than “The Answer” for Detroit. Why would he play better for Dunleavy?

by ClipCat on Jul 14, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't know if Detroit really wanted him around at the end of the year

Not sure I’m sold on this but I suspect he’s coming to terms with the fact that he’s no longer the Answer. He can still play the game and if he is ok with coming off the bench, then . . .

by Jax on Jul 14, 2009 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

His choice--and the Clips choice

I tried to make this point in the post. Iverson was traded to Detroit. He got there and played up his persona, and he was already alienated by being reduced to an expiring contract. The terms are very different for a one-year MLE free agent signing.

As Chris Sheridan noted, he knows that the minutes are there, and that BDavis and Gordon are presumptive starters. It’s a big market, with more attention coming after the Griffin signing. Gordon has 19 NBA wins, is still very young, and has little or no experience closing out games.

I think he might be alright with coming off the bench, and of course he might come in saying one thing and then doing another. In some ways the real question is who is on the floor at the end of the game—and it’s a bit troubling to think of Gordon on the bench in those situations, and just handing over the keys to Baron and AI. But that would have seemed like a fantastic option for the Clips at this time last year, and the Cassell deal worked out. So who knows.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 14, 2009 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

An issue of faith

Excellent, persuasive post – I almost always agree with you but just can’t do it this time. No doubt Iverson still has enough game left to become an excellent scorer off the bench. And he does seem like someone much more likely to accept a lesser role if it’s by choice. But it’s still quite a stretch to believe someone who passionately rejected that role last year on a perrenial contender will now come around and embrace it on our fragile, developing squad.

Even if AI starts the year with the best of intentions, I just don’t like the odds that he’ll play the good soldier when the going gets tough. I’m frightened by the defensive implications of a Baron / AI backcourt whether it’s at the beginning, middle or end of the game. And I foresee serious friction with Dunleavy over play calling, PT and basic personality issues.

If the Clippers sign him, I hope I’m wrong, but he feels like an unnecessary risk to both the short and long term prospects of the Clippers. I’d rather take a shot at Sessions or Felton with Anthony Carter or Bobby Jackson as plan B.

by ClipCat on Jul 14, 2009 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, two sides to it

But what about this part of the argument: how different is it for the Lakers to let Ariza go, save some money, and to bring in Artest? The Lakers have to cut costs and make their profits, and they are defending a championship. The Clips, on the other hand, are talking about a one-year deal with a supremely talented player. And the Clips have nowhere to go but up.

I definitely understand, however, what everybody is saying, and the other side of the argument.

My view of last year with AI was that he was part of a trade that devalued him. It was a tough pill to swallow, and he didn’t handle it well. But I’m curious about what his next incarnation will be. He’s such an extraordinary player, and perhaps he might be more effective and palatable in a reduced role on the downside of his career.

I must say, as the day goes on I become more skeptical. I’d rather talk about DeAndre Jordan now.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 14, 2009 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

TurkoGlu, too funny!

what is it with this infatuation with adhesives? hehehe

Clippers Basketball.... It's Masochistic!

by Clipochistic on Jul 14, 2009 1:30 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

imagine

what Eric Gordon could learn from just watching Allen Iverson play everyday…..

by DoubleTechnical on Jul 14, 2009 2:22 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Gordon might just learn that he doesn’t have to go to practice.

by ClipCat on Jul 14, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Practice?

Practice? Why are we even talking about practice?

by DoubleTechnical on Jul 14, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because we are looking at young impressionable players as the core of our future and don’t want bad rep players like AI poisoning their work ethic with his selfish me,me,me attitude

Bingo! Oh me oh my!

by ClippersUK on Jul 14, 2009 4:57 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

I don't agree with that comment

Never injured, averaged 41 mpg over his career, played hurt, played hard all the time, and was forced for most of his career to be the primary scorer on his teams. Just because your role is the team scorer doesn’t necessarily make you an unduly selfish player.

by Jax on Jul 14, 2009 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Usually I just agree with Zhiv...

And this post was pretty compelling… but then I read KA’s blog. Now we’ve got a pretty good argument for either side….

http://clipperblog.com/2009/07/14/answer-me-not/

For the record, I’m leaning towards KA… despite being a fairly diehard member of “club optimism”.

by swamigusto on Jul 14, 2009 5:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

For the record

I read KA too, of course, and it took a little bit of the Blake Griffin-spring out of my Club Optimism step. Like SP, KA is just awesome, and I especially loved the comment that “I’m not really interested in surveying his public persona. It’s dull work.” I really hate being out of step with either KA or SP, though I thought we had a little momentum here when mp pointed out the SP reverse mojo might be in play.

One note I would make is that I hated the Zbo trade when I first heard about it. There was nothing to speculate on, as it came across as a fait accompli. But I would have screamed no, no, no way, are you kidding? When Zbo arrived I was impressed by his play on a hapless team, he made a dreadful season more entertaining, we’ve discussed the addition by TT/Gordon starting subtraction at length. And I believe that I also identified Zbo as a fine fit in Memphis early on, actually right about something for once. Now the two Zbo trades make a nice pair. KA could never stomach Zbo as a Clipper, and I should add that his acute analysis pushed me to believe, after the season, that there had to be a way to trade him, that he would be in and out.

KA’s point is, okay, let’s be generous and forget about AI’s non-basketball peccadillos, how does he fit? He says that the Clipper needs are backup PG and wing defender/rebounder/glue guy. He’s not a wing defender or a rebounder, and as always KA is fantastic at describing AI’s defensive woes. KA says that Bobby Jackson, or “a Bobby Jackson type,” can fill the necessary backup pg role. His conclusion (at the end of part one) says that the Clips should be grown ups (“for the sake of the kids”), and wait patiently for their young talent to emerge, and in the process he expects the upcoming season to be entertaining, but they’re “a team a couple of seasons away from being a serious factor in the spring.”

Here’s where I beg to differ. Again, I think we’re traumatized by last year, when the Clips so rarely got to crunch time, to remember how hard it can be to close out games, especially for young teams—call it the Cassell factor. A resurgent BD and better health across the board might help, but for me BD and AI might be a lot better. Club Optimism would not be ready to admit, going in, that a resurgent, motivated team of Camby-BD-AI-Gordon-Griffin-Kaman-Thornton-DJordan, with some other parts (Taylor, Collins, Novak, plus some glue), has no chance of being a “factor.” And by factor I mean in contention to the extent that they show cohesion, defend the home court, close out games, make the playoffs and look like an attractive 2010 FA destination.

Okay, so AI is serviceable and perhaps problematic as a backup PG, spelling Baron Davis (the “whatever it is that afflicts Baron Davis” is more classic KA). And we know about the defender/rebounder wing, some one who can perhaps start ahead of Al Thornton. Mardy Collins is the placeholder, and his rebounding isn’t up to snuff.

My question: who comes in for Eric Gordon? Is KA suggesting it’s the “Bobby Jackson” to be named later? Is it Fred Jones? Mike Taylor? Yes, there’s a primary need for a backup PG and a defender/rebounding “wing,” but who is the 3rd guard, especially if the idea is that that wing might start in front of Thornton. I don’t get the rotation. Baron Davis is replaced by “Bobby Jackson,” who plays with Gordon. Then Baron returns, Gordon goes out, and “Bobby Jackson” stays in the backcourt with Baron. Okay, simple enough. I guess until I know who “Bobby Jackson” is, I’m going to be intrigued by AI.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 14, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Salient points...

Nicely argued. I’m swinging back the Zhivian way for the moment (call me callow, wishy-washy… I am certainly all that) but, I don’t know… KA really damns Iverson for his defense, it’s so chillingly and convincingly argued that I think it must be true. (Kevin Arnovitz’ knowledge of the on-the-court stuff seems so mountainous that it feels like it also must also be virtuous). But, in counterpoint, KA’s hatred of ZBo seemed irrational at times… beyond his usual fine logic. Is this another case of that?
(By the way, I hesitate to argue KA’s points on this site at all… it seems unfair, and for some reason I don’t ever post on his blog, but in this case, I brought it up, I linked it, it feels proper enough, if it drives a little traffic to his site that can’t be bad, right? His writing and game analysis is almost always Zhivian… absolutely first rate and well worth a gander.)
But back to the Iverson issue… I think it’s really in AI’s hands now… can he make the transition from star player to role player? Is he willing to watch some of the young talent grow without jealousy or fear? I don’t really buy KA’s argument that his presence will somehow damage “the kids”. It seems just as likely that BG and EG’s enthusiasm will influence AI in a positive manner… in exactly the same way that we hope Baron Davis will recover from “whatever it is that afflicts Baron Davis”.
There we go, I’m back, safely on the beach at Club Optimism. It wasn’t a tsunami after all, just a little rip tide.

by swamigusto on Jul 14, 2009 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zhiv wins this argument. Sign AI now.

I would rather have a guy with great talent not show up for practice and then give 1000% on the floor. After all, we’re just talking about practice, man. Practice. We’re talking practice. Practice. It’s just practice, man. Practice. Practice. Just practice. That’s all……

by Jerdog on Jul 14, 2009 5:35 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Not for me he doesn't

See the bigger picture with this point. It’s not the actual practise that is the problem, it’s the attitude and chemisty killing that comes with this.
Yep, great scorer who gave everything but your star player missing practise and living with his attitude of himself before the team cannot breed good locker room chemistry and can only cause resentment.
We seem to have a good young core with good characters. It’s bad enough that they have to be a team mate of pricky Davis each day without putting the whined AI in there too. For what? To sell some seats in the short term. Our team gets laughed at for screwing up potentially good situations. Let’s not risk things again

Bingo! Oh me oh my!

by ClippersUK on Jul 15, 2009 3:08 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

A day later

Obviously, I went in another direction this morning, considering, rather idly, the Lamar Odom situation, and part of that is a reaction and second thoughts about AI

Checking in and reading through a few things, the thought that occurs to me is this: what if something happens to Baron Davis? Even if it’s a minor injury? What if he, as some speculate, is tweaked in an unknown, perhaps unknowable way, and he’s lost something, if what we saw last season is pretty much what it’s gonna be. Club Optimism doesn’t happen to believe this, but it’s worth considering. As KA says (paraphrasing), what if whatever afflicts Baron Davis happens to afflict Baron Davis.

Is AI more attractive then? In the Baron-afflicted, perhaps unavailable, perhaps shockingly ineffective world, do you want AI as the guy who steps in? Take Baron out of the equation, through some unknown circumstance: how do we feel about a backcourt of AI and Eric Gordon? Say that AI takes nothing away from Gordon, but he’s clearly better and more effective than Baron. Again, I don’t want that to happen, and I’m choosing to continue to believe that BD will rise again and prosper. But what does an AI-Eric Gordon world look like?

Just wondering.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 15, 2009 6:37 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

For me, the main problems come with AI when Baron is playing and he shows his discontent about coming off the bench, as he did last year. Him and EJ in the backcourt would be interesting but only in the short term and at what cost? Having two characters like BD and AI fighting over that spot when Bd returned from injury would be like who could sulk more!

Bingo! Oh me oh my!

by ClippersUK on Jul 15, 2009 11:12 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

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