We Haven't Forgotten About Al Thornton
Note that there appears to be some confusion on this post. In a sans serif font, there's literally no difference between Al (upper case A, lower case L) and AI (upper case A, upper case i). This post is entirely about Al Thornton - I'm not talking about Iverson. To hopefully alleviate the confusion, I'm changing references to Al to AT.
We've been all Summer League and Iverson all the time around here the last week or so. But a FanPost about Al Thornton caught my eye this morning. I'm glad that you're standing up for AT Citizen ClipperPride. Someone definitely needs to.
It's an interesting commentary on the state of the Clippers that a third year player, who was first team all rookie in his first season, chosen to play with the Sophomores in the Rookie Challenge his second season, and second in the NBA (behind Kevin Durant) in scoring among second year players, is widely considered the weak link among the starters around here.
Then again, when you look at it - Eric Gordon and Blake Griffin are the obvious cornerstones of the franchise even though Griffin has yet to play an NBA game. The center position would seem to be fairly well supplied with Chris Kaman and Marcus Camby and even DeAndre Jordan. Sure, Kaman has been injury prone and inconsistent, but Camby is Mr. Consistency when he's on the floor. That leaves either Baron Davis at the point or AT at the small forward as the position that needs the most help - and although you can make a very strong statistical case that Baron was worse last season, with four more seasons and $53M committed to him, it's a little too painful to consider that he'll be that bad again - so most of us assume (hope?) that the point guard is taken care of - and the three becomes the problem area, almost by default.
But there's more to it than that. Let me start by saying that I personally have not given up on Al Thornton by a long shot. Nor, as I'm longing for a 'glue guy' at the three, am I necessarily disparaging him. He is not a 'glue guy' - certainly not at this point in his career. He is a different archetype - he is an 'instant offense' guy. Different situations call for different guys - and when I look at the Clippers' roster right now, I see a fit for a 'glue guy' starting at small forward.
We've already established some of the good news - specifically, among second year players, Al Thornton was second in scoring average at 16.8 points per game. That's more than Jeff Green, more than Thaddeus Young, etc. Now for the bad news. Among the 13 second year players averaging 10 points per game or more, Al Thornton was LAST in PER, LAST in True Shooting Percentage, and 11th in effective shooting percentage. (A quick aside - the two players with a worse eFG% are Rodney Stuckey and Ramon Sessions - kind of makes you think again about the Clippers potential pursuit of Sessions.) So efficiency is not his strength.
I spent a lot of time and pixels last season arguing that Eric Gordon was the best shooting guard among a fine crop of rookies, and my arguments invariably hinged on efficiency numbers. Well, live by the TSP, die by the TSP - AT has proven he can get his shot, but he needs to MAKE his shot more frequently.
He also needs to work on almost every other aspect of his game. He needs to pass more effectively, rebound better, and improve on defense. There's no reason he can't do all of those things. He has all the tools to do them, and at times he's looked very good (his defense on LeBron James late in the season comes to mind).
Here's my main point on the 'glue guy' argument. If Al Thornton's archetype is 'instant offense' guy, look at the players he'll likely be sharing the floor with in a starting lineup. Chris Kaman commands a double team in the low post and shot 53% last season. Eric Gordon is the seventh most efficient perimeter scorer in the LEAGUE. Blake Griffin is Blake Griffin. And Baron Davis is a former all star and was seventh in the league in assists last year, not to mention that as the point guard he will obviously have the ball in his hands a lot. In other words, in that starting lineup, AT is literally the last person I want to have the ball. The 'glue guy' is the player who is effective without the ball. At this point in his career, AT is not very effective playing off the ball. He's not spacing the floor, he's not getting offensive rebounds, he's not setting great screens.
On the other hand, he could be a prototypical scorer off the bench. A Vinny Johnson type to carry the scoring load while the starters are getting some rest. You put Al Thornton on the court with the second unit, and he's the man. During AT's rookie campaign, I raved about his ability to get his shot - a trait that is very difficult to develop; most players either can do it or they can't. Leading the second team AT would be able to put that ability to good use.
Now, we've been down this road before with Corey Maggette and Quinton Ross, and most of us were less than thrilled with that experiment. On the surface, it looks quite similar - one of the team's top scorers, who happens to be a relatively poor defender with a less than Mensa hoops IQ, is benched in favor of a severely limited player who by most traditional measures is clearly not as good. Why might it work this time? For one thing, AT is in his third season and has only been the starter for one season, whereas Maggette was in his seventh and had been starting for over four seasons - psychologically, it was a very difficult transition for Maggette. For another, the team's results have been abysmal, an NBA worst 42 wins, in those two seasons, so it's certainly reasonable to want to mix things up. It obviously depends on who the alternative is at the three - if it's Quentin Richardson, as Andy Roeser suggested on air on Tuesday night, then I'm less than convinced. Same with Mardy Collins.
The free agent market is beginning to get more than a little thin. Most of my high value targets from the beginning of summer have already signed somewhere. Trevor Ariza is in Houston, Josh Childress is staying in Greece, Anthony Parker is in Cleveland (a great signing for the Cavs, if you ask me) - even the aforementioned Ross has found a home in his hometown of Dallas. Jamario Moon, Matt Barnes and Desmond Mason remain available, and any one of them could make a worthwhile contribution to the 09-10 Clippers.
So once again, I've allowed myself to daydream about Al Thornton's replacement in the starting lineup; but it doesn't mean I've given up on him. He's certainly not too old to improve at the age of 25, entering his third NBA season. There are so many examples of players who continued to make major strides long into their careers, it's almost silly to list them (how about Elton Brand?). I've already spent a lot of time refuting the Hollingerian logic that older rookies have no upside. But perhaps more apropos to our current situation is the idea of players who entered the NBA as scorers, but turned themselves into all around players. Doug Christie was in the slam dunk contest as a 22 year old rookie with the Lakers (Christie was a four year college player like Thornton). He was in his NINTH season, 30 years old, when he joined the Kings as their defensive stopper. Former Clipper Ron Harper was a high-flying volume scorer early in his career. He won five rings as a 'glue guy' with Phil Jackson on the Bulls and Lakers. Lindsay Hunter was drafted as a scorer - he averaged almost 27 points per game as a fifth year senior at Jackson St. But his offensive game never translated to the NBA, where he is a terrible 39% career shooter. Nonetheless, he's played 16 seasons and won a ring with the Pistons as a key defensive specialist (this, on a team known for defense). So there's no reason Al Thornton can't become gluier if he really wants to.
You also need to bear in mind that AT's been on teams that were beset by injuries and overall dysfunction - he's often been put into situations where he had to force shots because no one else on the floor could score. And although his season was cut short by a shoulder injury (which is rehabbing nicely according to MDsr), it's worth noting that March 2009 was arguably the best month of his career - he shot 52% and rebounded better in the last full month of basketball he played. In fact, in the dozen games he played after being berated by Donald Sterling following a loss to the Spurs, he shot an eye-popping 55% - so maybe Mr. Sterling needs to yell at him more often. Obviously it's a small sample size, but encouraging nonetheless.
What's truly fascinating about this subject is that we're talking about a 19 win team - how is it possible that a 25 year old player entering his third year, who was all-rookie in his first year, is the biggest problem we have to talk about?
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But won't AI be good with the second unit?
since you described how AI fits with the starters: there’s only one answer: NO. But can he be effective if he came off the bench, because Gordon must rest. So who will be able to take his spot? Well, if AI was willing to come off the bench, IF he does sign w/ the Clips, then he may be effective. but if he demands to be a starter, that can mess up the Clippers starting line-up, and waste of money. He can be good for the Clippers, but he must be part of the second unit.
As for AT, he’s not a ‘glue guy’, that will be more of a Battier-esque player who would be a good fit with the Clippers, Al is still good since, as SP describe the scenario that he can be a good iso offensive player if someone like Kaman or Griffin is double teamed. He’s a good player, but must fit in better.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.-1984 George Orwell.
Is there any chance of Clippers landing Lamar Odom to start @ 3?
I would love to see that…
C – Kaman / Camby
PF – Griffin / Odom
SF – Odom / Thornton
SG – Gordon / Richardson
PG – Davis
An Alternative Theory
Finally, I manage to hold off and let SP go first. No comments on this excellent post yet? Still hanging your head like me after the poor game last night (no Eric Gordon, me no likee, but he needs the rest: guess we hold off on the parade for DeAndre), especially since the feed seems to be unwatchable? I had the same thought as SP after reading ClipperPride’s lament. It’s so great to have all the facts and issues laid out in classic fashion by SP.
Still, a different perspective occurs to me. And I think part of it is in line with SP’s approach: a guy like Q doesn’t bump AT from the starting lineup (Q don’t do glue, even if he can still play), and Mardy Collins is a stretch, and even a bit of an insult to AT. It’s also worth mentioning that if a player like—ahem—Allen Iverson is coming off the bench, you might want him to play with Collins, rather than Thornton.
But here’s the question: is Blake Griffin gluey enough to make Thornton look a little better as a starter? Not in the Shane Battier, Tayshaun Prince, Ariza SF model, but SP’s argument is that “Blake Griffin is Blake Griffin,” and now we’ve had our first glimpse of BG as a Clipper. He’s awesome. He gets his points and rebounds, he just keeps moving and making plays. But he also seems to make other guys better, specifically DJordan in the first two games. I think we learned last night, as mentioned, that having Eric Gordon on the floor makes a huge difference—and that’s an argument that Gordon himself, with his efficiency, is also gluey in some way. Neither Gordon or Griffin seems driven to be a super high volume shooter, and they’re willing passers who will take what is given to them.
The glue concept, which we’ve been getting so much mileage out of lately, is a bit amorphous, and I don’t think we should get hung up on it. That’s the point: we shouldn’t denigrate Thornton, an established starter with a whole lot of strengths, in favor of an idea or a concept that doesn’t have anything resembling the right player attached to it on the roster at this point. Griffin is a bit different, more court-aware with better balance, than I would have guessed. His power comes with a great deal of forethought and grace, and he seems just as comfortable away from the basket as he does in the paint. He’s working on his shot, so he’s not going up with it as often as he will in the future, and this perhaps causes him to look around a little bit more and it lets plays develop. but he seems like that’s not something that’s going to change when his shot gets better.
He’s going to make Thornton a much better player. AT has to do his part. He has to be more selective, but he should have much much better options than he has the past two seasons, with the injuries. If Thornton can come to training camp with a stronger focus on rebounding and defense and taking better shots, knowing those are the things that will keep him in the starting lineup, it might work out very nicely.
We’ve learned to at least recognize the equation since the Maggette-Ross debacle, and we made a recent discovery that Ross wasn’t really the glue guy, and there wasn’t as strong a need for one as it might have seemed: Mobley was the glue guy, although he was supposedly a sharp-shooting, semi-high scoring SG. The fact was that Mobley would get his points on certain hot nights, but he rarely took too many empty shots, he was always doing something valuable, and he turned out to be a tough defender and complementary player who was a good match with Maggette, FElton, Kaman and Cassell. He was extremely gluey, and that’s why the team was better when Maggette went back into the starting lineup. QRoss was a good defender but didn’t do much else on the glue side, and his presence forced Cat to be more of a shooter and scorer than was necessary. Gordon, on his part, has a lot of Mobley’s best qualities, and he’s also a better and more efficient and consistent scorer.
At any rate, the Griffin we’ve seen, and the fantastic potential of the way he will play with Gordon in the future, might be just the thing to turn Thornton into a much better player than we’ve been discussing recently.
by citizen zhiv on Jul 17, 2009 1:35 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I was just going to say:
look at Cat Mobley. Began his career as a 20ppg scorer, finished as the “blanket”, a do-it-all utility man.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Great Post Zhiv
I still say fooey to the gluey. So much to say (as always) – will post my rant based on your “Alternative Theory”.
Still bullish on AT
AT has the physical gifts to be anything he wants on the court. But his understanding of the game is limited. He didn’t start playing hoops until late in high school. His success is purely based on being an athletic freak. In the right situation, I see him as a 20+ppg scorer in this league. But he has a lot of work to do on the intangibles.
Wages of Wins’ metric rated AT as the least efficient player in the NBA last year. He was also dead last in plus/minus (though I don’t read too much into that – a lot of it depends upon who is on the floor with you. EJ was 4th worst. Lamar Odom was second best. C’mon). Anyway, two supporting metrics show that Thornton hurt more than helped when he was on the court. He must improve. NBA ball is not only about scoring, as strange as that sounds.
Despite all of that, I am intrigued by the freaky athletic lineup the Clippers can shuffle out on a given night, even more so than the 2001 Clippers. Baron, Gordon, Thornton, Griffin, Camby, Kaman, Jordan, Taylor…these guys are among the most athletic at their respective positions. This doesn’t include whatever free agents may be picked up.
The Clippers could certainly use a solid, high IQ, Cat Mobley type wing player. It is the missing piece.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Nice Analysis
I know i’ve been one of the bigger AT bashers on here, but it’s nothing personal at all. He’s a good dude who i’d like to see do well, but he has to work on some things in order to help our team. His rookie season took everyone by surprise, and last year I think his play was widely misunderstood. Obviously, this upcoming year will go a long way in helping us evaluate him.
Q’s game may work out better as a starter, just because he can space the floor. He can hang back and take the occasional 3 at a pretty good percentage, and he wont demand the ball when there are better options as AT is likely to.
Expectations were too high for Al last year
I think most clipper fans are dissapointed with Al because expectations were so high after his rookie season.
I admit that I was disappointed and expected he would make huge improvements in his second season.
By no means am I willing to write him off yet. He needs to develop a more consistent jump shot, but you can’t deny his ability to finish and take the ball to the basket.
Due to all the injuries and terrible lineups they were throwing out there last year, Al had to carry a bigger load than he was capeable of. I expect big things from Al in 2010, considering there will be much better pieces around him and he will no longer be such a focal point from opposing defenses.
IT also couldn’t hurt for an athletic player like him to play more uptempo and get some good looks from our “all star” point guard.
Al’s game is not suited for the MDSR half court grind it out ball, this team needs to run more.
by The Blake Griffin Era on Jul 17, 2009 3:23 PM PDT reply actions
Fine, but
this doesn’t really address the basketball IQ issues that have dogged him since college. We can always hope that players will mature, but he’s not getting any younger. I agree that he’d do better in an uptempo system.
I agree
He was great in the Rook/.Soph game…because they ran. He can even pass it in the open court. At FSU, he was the center piece. He won’t be here.
I think he could be useful at the 4 in a small ball lineup with Griffin at center.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
i think expectations for ej are to high this season to
we could be in for a bigger dissapointment
They both were on McDonalds last year
AT swore off of it near the end of the season, though who knows if he’ll keep it up. Wonder who else on the team was hooked on the stuff.
What am I doing here? I'm a Suns fan!
I’m here to tell you that as the master of the theory of the 10 roles, Al Thornton is a natural born scorer. Al Thornton is not a glue guy. Anyone who averages 17 PPG in their second season is going to be a scorer. You’re telling me he doesn’t have time to improve? It’s his seconds season! I can’t tell you how many times I heard that Al Jefferson was going to improve in his fifth.
PER works for low impact players, but it’s overrated for high impact players like Thornton. I don’t see who else you’re going to start at the 3, and I sure as heck wouldn’t give up on someone who kind of reminds me of…you know who he reminds me of? Alex English. The totally underrated Alex English. Maybe he should be a Nugget. You have a blessing in disguise. Don’t give it up.
When fictionally asked to comment on the state of the Phoenix Suns, GM Steve Kerr said, "Arizona."
by hookedonphoenix on Jul 17, 2009 9:21 PM PDT reply actions
As in, someone tell me what’s wrong with .8 SPG, .9 BPG, 17 PPG and 5 REB? All of your minutes were strange due to the fact that you had Zach Randolph, Marcus Camby and Chris Kaman on the floor at varying degrees. Don’t blame it on that. Al Thornton is really good. Fine. He’s not bringing down 7 RPG. It’s his second year! Relax.
When fictionally asked to comment on the state of the Phoenix Suns, GM Steve Kerr said, "Arizona."
by hookedonphoenix on Jul 17, 2009 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I'll tell ya
His jumper hit in the lower 30%, keep in mind he likes to take a lot of forced long 2’s. Obviously, he was a less than steller 3pt shooter (25%). His insistance on taking these shots is infuriating, when he’s so good at driving to the basket. If he’s wide open, sure take the outside shot, but if he could just focus on his strengths while working on his deficiency’s (shooting/ selection, passing, defense) he’d be on the right track.
The concern is his shot selection and reluctance to pass the ball on offense. The potential is there, and what we really need to find out is if he’s going to be the instant offense guy off the bench, or can he adapt to team play and take less shots when there are better options on the floor.
the PER thing is ridiculous.
the guy with the 2nd worst PER out of the 2nd year guys last year was durant. And now one is pointing that out becuase he’s kevin durant.
this team has got it
We are set. from young guns to vets we have a great balance and a great group. Im excited and superbly optimistic. with DeAndre, Blake, Gordon, Novak (Ü) our future is set… with vets Baron, Camby, Kaman, Q and a few we are looking good and we’ve got some good vibes going from the pups flowing on up. its here to stay. blake and deandre’s personalities are just what this organization needs
problem with Thornton are two fold.
he suffers form Corey Maggette syndrome
1) is a black hole with zero passiing skills.
2) To say he plays little or no defense is an understatement. His defense is so bad it is to the point that he is a liability when he is on the court.’
3) He is way overrated and the team will improve when they replace him with a player who has a morewell
rounded and balanced game.
Like I said just like Corey was and is.
by crab dribble cocktail on Jul 20, 2009 11:26 AM PDT reply actions

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