Smith, Telfair and Madsen - Take Two
I've had a couple more hours to ruminate on today's trade. On the whole, I think it's a good thing, but I'm less than 100% clear on what it all means.
It's interesting to flip it over and look at it from the Timberwolves' perspective. Stop-n-Pop has an excellent analysis at SB Nation's Canis Hoopus, and a few Wolves fans have commented on Clips Nation as well. It's worth noting that Stop-n-Pop is a Bassy fan, and thinks that Telfair is the best player in the trade. Devotees of PER would probably disagree (08-09 PER Sebastian Telfair 10.8, Craig Smith 16.9), but PER is not the be all end all. Stop-n-Pop has watched a LOT more Wolves games than I have - if he says Bassy can play, it's nothing but good news.
But why did the Wolves do it? Answer: to save a little money, to use Q's expiring contract in another trade, and to free up a couple of roster spots. In case you didn't notice, none of those things have anything to do with basketball. Is it true that the Wolves were logjammed at the 1 and the 4? Sure. So the trade makes sense from that standpoint, as the Clippers definitely needed help at the point. But I remain unconvinced that power forward was a key need - or rather, as compared to small forward, which Smith is NOT, power forward seemed reasonably well taken care of to me.
UNLESS... either Camby or Kaman is moved. If one of the veteran centers is traded (either now or at the deadline) suddenly this trade makes a lot more sense, right? Then you've got the remaining vet starting at center backed up by DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin starting at power forward backed up by Smith. And if you parlay Kamamby into something good, then everything falls into place. Which one should be moved? Well, there are pros and cons of course. If you move Kaman, you clear 2010 cap space, but leave youself with only DeAndre Jordan when Camby leaves this summer. If you move Camby, you're chewing up that self same cap space in the deal. So it depends on if you're playing 2010 FA derby or not.
But back to the Wolves' motivation - all of those positives from their standpoint are automatically negatives for the Clippers. They cost themselves 2010 cap space (no WAY Bassy opts out of $2.7M), and they burned two roster spots. Post trade, they have 13 guaranteed contracts for next season. So unless they plan to waive someone (Ricky Davis and Mark Madsen are obvious candidates), they only have one spot left given MDsr's preference for opening the season with 14. Is that one Steve Novak? Is it Allen Iverson?
Or is it Ramon Sessions? Kevin is reporting that this deal doesn't necessarily preclude a deal for Sessions. Really? It sure looks like it would to me. Given the state of this roster, does it make sense to have TWO guys who fancy themselves at least close to NBA starter level backing up Baron Davis? The Knicks are rumored to be considering offering the MLE to Sessions, but the Clippers have an ace in the hole - the Z-bo trade exception could be used to give Sessions a starting salary higher than the MLE take Sessions and an unwanted contract off the Bucks (hat tip to Citizen Trapp for catching my mistake here - Sessions is a two year vet, and as such is limited to a maximum first year salary of the MLE - this is the 'Gilbert Arenas Rule.')
Would the Bucks match an MLE offer sheet or refuse to play the S&T game? I don't think so. They just drafted Brandon Jennings to play the point, they still have Luke Ridnour, they are bleeding money to such a degree that they didn't even make a QO to Charlie Villanueva - in short, I see no way they make a long term commitment at $6M+ per year to Ramon Sessions. But then you have to ask the corrollary - if the Bucks don't think Sessions is worth that money, then is he worth that money? It would be a gamble at best.
One more point on Sessions - if indeed that deal is still a possibility, it would be a very bad sign for Mike Taylor. Taylor's contract is not fully guaranteed, and it's hard to imagine that the Clippers would have him back as the FOURTH string point guard.
I don't like to read to much into press release quotes, but here's what MDsr said after this trade:
We are really excited to add these three players to our team This move really gives some much needed depth.
Much needed depth. That's certainly what it looks like on the surface. Since the Randolph for Richardson trade was first reported, we've been talking about how the Clippers would have to decide whether to fill their last few roster spots as cheaply as possible (preserving maximum 2010 cap space) or with the best players possible (shoring up weaknesses on the team, but chewing up that cap space). Iverson is a rare example of a player who may be able to do both (if he's indeed willing to sign a one year deal) but he comes with other costs. The Minnesota trade would seem to be a move toward the cheap route - three players for less money than the one going out. There is that pesky player option for Bassy - but $2.7M for a legit rotation player next season is not unreasonable, and let's face it, the Clippers have to make another move (a Kaman move) to be max money players in 2010 anyway. Telfair's option does not in fact change the basic equation - the Clippers can be big money players, on the level of $10M plus, in next year's market without making any more moves, or they can trade Kaman for expiring salaries to get into the max money game. That was the situation before this trade, and it's still the situation now.
And lest you forget, the Wolves fans are dreaming of trade deadline deals using Q Rich's expiring contract. Well, as of now, the Clippers have five players in the final year of their contracts. :
- Marcus Camby - $9.6
- Mark Madsen - $2.8
- Ricky Davis - $2.4M
- Craig Smith - $2.3
- Mardy Collins- $1.9M
That's $19M in expiring deals that they can mix and match to trade for basically any player in the league. Madsen plus Davis alone, at $5.2M (tradeable for up to $6.6M under salary matching rules) has me simply drooling at the possibilities. If the Suns wanted to go full fire sale, Barbosa happens to make $6.6M - I'm just saying. (By the way, we've said it before but this is why the team probably should NOT waive these guys - even if we never want to see Ricky Davis play again, he has potential value in a trade.) So there is still a LOT of roster flexibility for MDsr and Olshey to work with.
It all leaves a remaining, gaping hole at small forward. Al Thornton is a solid pro, if perhaps not the ideal small forward for this team, but who is behind him? Based on last season, Ricky Davis is NOT useful for much beyond his trade value. Mardy Collins is an intriguing possibility, but let's face it - until he was forced onto the court last season, Collins was viewed as a throw in to the Randolph trade. He fancies himself a point guard, and could bring some decent ball handling and passing skills to the position - but he's not going to stretch the floor, and he's not much of a scorer. In fact, the one place he showed he could score last season was in the post against smaller defenders when he was playing in the backcourt - he loses that advantage completely at forward (flukey Celtics game notwithstanding).
Smith (25) and Telfair (24) are both young and certainly not useless on a basketball court. And they do provide some 'much needed depth'. But as I look over the roster, the Clippers still lack depth in at least one place where they need it much more.
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i still like AI
I think this trade makes AI a even better option. Now with a pass first PG and AI off the bench you have a great scoring tandem for your backcourt.
CS's post is interesting, and the response just above makes some sense
I don’t know what our current cap situation is. Perhaps they are rolling the dice with Bassy and AI this year
Since 2005
I’ve been following Telfair’s career. I saw his movie “Through the Fire”, which documents his high school career and bleak situation living in the NYC projects. Very cool film, highly recommended.
The problem is that while the guy has many terrific skills, shooting the ball has never been one of them. Year after year, in the one or two games I’d see him in, even though I’d always be rooting for him, it would be a major clankfest. I also think they’re being generous listing him at six feet.
Just started watching the doc(Through the Fire)...
…Its funny, Telfair is scouted in their first playoff game of his senior year by The Clippers. Lincoln High’s coach comments on the scout’s presence at the game and that Telfair needs to be on point at all times with these teams watching him.
great deal
before the clips got griffin i always wanted them to get an undersized pf like a millsap, bass, type player. i am not saying c smith is that great but he gives great effort and is a body that can crash the boards. telefair is still young and has shown glimpses of being a solid pro. i think this situation for him coming off the bench and being around a group of solid vets and a core of young players can help him develop his game and hopefully he is due for a breakout year. i think he is my age 23, still younger than thornton so i am not ready to bury this guy hopefully he can make the name for himself that he always wanted to with the clips…through the fire was a great documentary any hoops fan would love it.
al could end up being a good complimentary player
he’s been doing iso for two years as a first or second option.
if he’s now the 3rd or 4rth or 5th option it could actually make him a better player as far as the team goes. in other words, if he did what he does worse, less of the time, he will be a better player.
if the ultimate small forward pops up and becomes easy prey, i would expect the clips to try to improve it. otherwise, i think the clips are looking solid.
Clippers Basketball.... It's Masochistic!
Hey Steve
When you say the Clips can waive Ricky Davis or Mark Madsen is that the same as a buyout? Clips pay them money to go away? Does that $$ count against cap space? Also what happened to rumours of JWill coming back? Clips still own his rights? Finally how much do the Clips now have to go after a SF and who’s still out there that you like?
Occurs to me
For those Clipiracy theorists out there, what about a Kaman-BDavis trade?
But then you’re really getting into the major roster turnover problem again. Still, something like that could really get the capspace and flexibility thing going.
Bassy will be a servicable floor leader
First thing people notice is his horrid shooting %, and his bust label following his documentary and the new york hype. Like many of the Wolves fans have said, he’ll provide you with slick controlled handles, terrific floor spreading decisions, and the ability to dish and kick.
He may get into a scorers mentality from time to time, but the 2 years starting for the Timberwolves, he’s learned to control the pace, pushing the ball and dishing for wide open teammates for better looks. During the 2008-2009 season, he started to shoot the ball with more confidence, which may or may not be a good thing.
Like the trade allright, but the "3" needs addressing
The two main needs we’ve had are backup point and depth/ talent at the small forward spot. Obviously, this trade helps on the former, but would still like something done at the 3. As CS has been pointing out, this is the main concern now, and it could be the 2nd year in a row that we don’t wind up addressing it.
We keep hearing the question, “can this guy play some 3?”
How about just going out and getting a friggin 3
How's Marvin Williams?
He’s restricted, but the Hawks are pretty tight against the cap and with Jamal Crawford, cud be flexible… Whattaya guys think the chances of a sign-n-trade of Thornton/R.Davis/Madsen for Williams ($4.5-5M per/4-5 seasons).. Don’t think anyone’s offered anything yet to Williams…. Or, now that we’ve got PF depth with Smith, trade Camby for Shane Battier? Rockets can rent Camby while Yao’s gone, and with Ariza in the mix, Battier could be expendable… Kaman/BG/Williams or Battier/EJ/BDavis would be awesome… Jordan/Smith/Collins or Thornton/Collins or FA/Telfair not bad off the bench… and while I’m at it, how’s Keith Bogans or Von Wafer as cost-effective UFA 2G’s who are taller than 6’5 and can knock down a 3?
All these worries about shaving salary for 2010 is starting to bug me...
Even if you scrimp and save all your cap space next year and drop it all on one player, you still know still have to field a team of twelve next year… Let’s see, BDavis, Griffin, Gordon, Kaman, Jordan, now Telfair. That’s six (assuming you don’t trade Kaman). Add a high priced free agent, that’s seven. You need five more players to field a team of twelve… and two or three of those guys will almost certainly see time in the regular rotation! They probably are not going to be minimum salary guys. But if you’re determined to only sign one-year-deals this year, that leaves you negotiating five more low deals next year. If you sign Novak or Jones this year, are you going to sign them only to one year deals? Suppose you want to keep one or two of these guys after they actually get better? It happens.
The Clips are not like the Knicks or some of the other very desperate teams in that they already have a solid core and a couple of potential all-stars. This saving space for one guy (or LeBron-and-no-one else) seems foolish to me. Let’s assemble a good team and let them develop together.
I agree
And I think that’s the way the team is going…. cap space is good, and we want it… but it’s not a matter of all the eggs in the LeBron basket. I see the Clippers having enough money to offer a nice deal to the RIGHT free agent next summer. Or at least I think that’s the way they are going.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jul 21, 2009 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Well if the Clips do want HUGE salary relief for 2010...
a possible trade would be Kaman + filler(Ricky Davis) for Dampier. This helps free up max cap space for the free agency bonanza + gets rid of a injury prone center. For Dallas, they finally get a real center, but then they have to hope that Kaman doesn’t get injured. All the Clips have to do to get $13.3 Mil off the books is play Dampier less than 2,300 min. for the first 70 games, or if he doesn’t start 70 games, then all season games. He can even be used for a sign and trade, which can also net you guys a star without having to deal with other teams. This could be beneficial, but the Clips will need to develop DJ the next season, if he stays, so he can eventually take the role of starting center.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.-1984 George Orwell.
i only hesitate to trade kaman because
he is our only low post threat.
i cant see dunleavy going in to the season with no one to iso on the low block. grif isnt ready to be this guy at this point.
i love camby, but he seems to be the most expendable given this new trade and what is mostly perceived as an improved game by djordan.
if the clips can get a serious three for camby i can see that happening and it would be a good move
Clippers Basketball.... It's Masochistic!
by Clipochistic on Jul 20, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
If you're going to trade Kaman...
You’ve got to get real value for him. Anyway, if he plays well, he’ll be worth far more at the deadline than he is now. By that time you’re gonna better know how DJordan fits in your future as well.
Dampier isn’t worth it… and giving Kaman to a western rival is plain nuts.
what if the wolves cant sign rubio?!
that makes our first rounder of minnies in 2011 look really sweet! not to mention rubio is 18, remember how foreign the court looked to an 18 yr old kovolev. he will need some dev time. seems like the wolves have shuffled a lot of eggs into a single basket.
their gonna have their second favorite rookie running the show if rubio skips on them.
i would think they are confident in the rubio signing happening.
should be interesting to see how it unfolds…
sorry wolves fans, but i am selfishly hoping rubio keeps getting paid in euros.
Clippers Basketball.... It's Masochistic!
Sessions Can't Make More Than the MLE
Just one correction from your post………….
Sessions CANNOT make more than the MLE since he’s only been in the league for 2 years (this is the Gilbert Arenas rule).
So, the Clippers cannot use their TPE to pay him more than the MLE.
They can however use their TPE to take more salary back from MIL in a sign and trade (something the Knicks can’t do).
So they could theoretically trade their TPE to MIL for Sessions and someone like Francisco Elson. This allows MIL to dump a little more salary and have the TPE in their back pocket to use sometime in the future if they choose. Of course, the Knicks may be able to trump that by offering a future pick(s), but I’m not sure they’re willing to do that.
Thank you!
The Gilbert Arenas rule! How could I have forgotten that! Good catch.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jul 21, 2009 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions
By the way...
Welcome to the light. Seems like we have a well-informed lurker who felt compelled to join the conversation just to correct my mistake! I should make mistakes more often.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jul 21, 2009 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Trapp!
Trapp is an epic Clips commentator, a centerpiece of the ESPN board. Interesting moment to jump in, but let’s hope he sticks around and contributes.
by citizen zhiv on Jul 21, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions
yer
trapp and madglove both. i wonder if clipanswerman reads hear. or posting under a different alias. i have not noticed any of his trademark responses on here. maybe he wants a clean slate ;-)
by Takebb909 on Jul 21, 2009 10:57 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Should have mentioned madglove
Another longtime stalwart
by citizen zhiv on Jul 21, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
This is true, but
That restriction is for the offer sheet process.
I don’t see why the Arenas provision applies to a strict S&T. Sessions and the Bucks agree to rescind the QO and Sessions becomes UFA, at which point he can be signed and traded for any amount that the Clippers can cover via the TPE?
But...
Any deal the Bucks offer Sessions would have to meet cap restrictions… and they don’t have his full Bird rights, and therefore can’t offer more than the MLE – right? Even if the intent is to then trade him, the contract offer would have to stand on it’s own, I think.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jul 21, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Yup - I didn't check their cap figure
I assumed they were under the cap since they aren’t paying anyone, so they fail. A team COULD ignore the Arenas provision, if it didn’t also spend all of its money putting together a dubious team.
I think TPE’s can only be used on 1 player.
by callmeishmael on Jul 21, 2009 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions
hoopsworld quote
:The move is an interesting one because the Clippers hold a $7.4 million trade exception from the Zach Randolph deal and have tons of smaller contracts on their roster. The belief is this deal is a precursor to a sign and trade offer for Ramon Sessions, who is getting a lot of interest from the Knicks and possibly the Thunder"
Kaman's Value
Waiting until the deadline to trade Kaman AKA Ted Nugent’s illegitimate child is a bad idea; Kaman succumbs to injury by the opening of hunting season and he doesn’t seem to recover until it’s time to go fishing in the spring.

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