Coaches Matter, Reason No. 1,456,789

by Jax on Jul 25, 2009 11:00 AM PDT Comment 48 comments

We know this already, but Kevin Arnovitz at True Hoop on Friday (in the Friday Bullets) discusses a key reason why Matt Barnes chose to sign with the Magic. The reason? Barnes' perception of the coach, Stan Van Gundy.

Here's the quote:

"Third Quarter Collapse notes that Matt Barnes listed Stan Van Gundy as one of the primary reasons he chose Orlando: "Are you hearing this? Are you believing this? Van Gundy, the man whom some Magic fans wanted fired after his team blew a 14-point, 4th-quarter lead to the Boston Celtics in the Eastern Conference Semifinals, is now almost a big a draw for free-agents as Dwight freakin' Howard is." Whatever unfair stigma Van Gundy carried into the late spring, it's fair to say that label has expired. As Ben Q. Rock states in the post, Van Gundy has joined the ranks of elite coaches in the league, and a difference-maker for guys exploring their options around the league."

Now, I'm not suggesting that Stan Van Gundy is actually an elite coach, but Barnes' statement is helpful because it shows that the coach is an important factor for getting free agents to sign (and is probably a factor for someone like Sessions). MDSr is obviously not an elite coach, and unless he starts consistently leading the team deep into the playoffs, he never will be. As most of you know, I'm very skeptical of his coaching abilities, and I find it very difficult to believe that most NBA players think he's a good coach, enjoy playing for him, or respect his coaching acumen.

This continues to be a big problem for the Clippers, in part because with MDSr as the GM and DTS as the owner, it doesn't seem likely that things are going to turn around in the near future, and I don't believe that the team should be focusing on the 2010 free agent class, but rather should be taking advantage of other teams' desire to focus on that class. I dont' like being in this position, and at the end of the day it probably won't make much difference in terms of winning because MDSr remains the coach, but there is a chance we can get some more good young talent in here, and MDSr steps away from his coaching duties, we could have a good chance at going deep in the playoffs in a couple of years.

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i really really agree with this part:

“I don’t believe that the team should be focusing on the 2010 free agent class, but rather should be taking advantage of other teams’ desire to focus on that class. "

Clippers Basketball.... It's Masochistic!

by Clipochistic on Jul 25, 2009 11:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I think so many teams will overspend in 2010

a team that can take advantage in 2011 when most other teams won’t have money for free agents like KD.

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.-1984 George Orwell.

by tomkanti on Jul 25, 2009 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jax is a bit right,

Our main focus is have Dunleavy relieve himself on coaching duties. Dunleavy can be GM for now.
After that, THEN we focus on 2009 or 2010. Whatever suits our boats. (:

Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!

by JackduhSun on Jul 26, 2009 4:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting post but it's only

one player in Barnes and you are talking about a team that pushed far into the playoffs. I think the factors of other players on that team and it’s likelyhood of success and playing time all fit just as high if not higher up the list of things players look for.

Hell, if you think about it, there are loads of other things involved. I don’t think for one minute that if our team start to perform really well next year and the young players continue to develop, Baron has a good year, Kaman stays healthy etc that players wouldn’t come here because of Dunleavy.

They’ll want to come because of Griffin, Gordon, maybe Baron even and being on a successful team is far more important.

You don’t see a flurry of players running to sign with the Knicks at the moment but when D’Antoni was coaching Phoenix, everyone said that players loved playing for him. It’s a combination of lots of factors.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like Dunleavy as a coach, don’t want him as a coach. I’m firmly in the same group as you there Jax. However, I don’t think it’ll necessarily stop players coming here. Baron, potentially the worst fitting player in the NBA came here. Stunk the place out but he came!!!

Bingo! Oh me oh my!

by ClippersUK on Jul 25, 2009 11:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

No one else was offering Baron anywhere near what we offered

by Jax on Jul 25, 2009 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

My problem is

that I don’t think he can ever sustain a winning team here. He sure hasn’t in 6 years, and I don’t think his offensive schemes are very good. I hope I’m wrong.

by Jax on Jul 25, 2009 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

'05 Clipps Jax?

Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!

by JackduhSun on Jul 26, 2009 4:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

But your right;

one year and the rest of the season were flukes. Epic fail if you ask me. I’d take D’Antoni as coach anytime of the day. Hell, even give me Reggie Theus over Dunleavy. At this point, I’m starting to believe that anything is an upgrade over Dunleavy at the coaching position.

Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!

by JackduhSun on Jul 26, 2009 4:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

My favorite part:: "As most of you know, I'm very skeptical of his coaching abilities"...

Skeptical?! No, really? I had no idea.
Doesn’t matter, I’m not as skeptical, and in many ways I’m thankful he’s here (though I’d love to see him replace himself as coach), but I also don’t believe the team should be focusing on the 2010 free agent class… and I think it’s an excellent point that the Clips should be taking advantage of others focus on that ridiculous carrot. You’re a hundred percent right about that.

by swamigusto on Jul 25, 2009 11:40 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs

Well said.

by oneight on Jul 25, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It seems to me that we are fairly well-positioned now.

by Jax on Jul 25, 2009 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Grain of salt

Listen to Mark Madsen’s interview from Thursday, and you’ll hear mentions of the Clippers’ “great coach” and even a reference to the commitment of Donald Sterling.

I’m not saying that your point is invalid – I am saying that Barnes praising SVG is hardly proof. The Clippers had significantly more trouble landing free agents before MDsr than after, I think you’d agree.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jul 25, 2009 12:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Really, Steve?

Mark Madsen, a scrub who was traded here, is talking about the great coach in the interview?

What’s he supposed to say there. Come on now.

Did the Clippers try for any free agents before MDSr?

by Jax on Jul 25, 2009 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Steve,

that’s not right man. Any player coming into a new team has to praise their coach somehow. Do you expect everybody to pull a Brandon Jennings and bash his coach, only to let his coach say that he likes his confidence? Its morally (plus it helps self image) to say that a team is great and has potential, wants to do whatever they can to contribute, and has a great coach. Listen to all three of them talk. Most likely I’ve sumed up everything they’ve said.

Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!

by JackduhSun on Jul 26, 2009 4:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Um...

I think that was my point gentlemen. I’m not sure why you think Matt Barnes’ words are so much more reliable than Mark Madsen’s.

“What’s he supposed to say there. Come on now.” Who is the ‘he’ in this sentence? Barnes or Madsen?

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jul 27, 2009 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heh

“Van Gundy has joined the ranks of elite coaches in the league”

Doubtful, and fleeting.

by John R on Jul 25, 2009 4:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Well, the guy has had a pretty short career so

far but he’s on the right tracks with a career % of .638 and winning seasons each time.

I’d say elite coaches get the best out of their players and I’m not sure SVG has proved he can do that yet. He’s got a roster that is built to go all the way now so he’ll need to prove it again this year.

Jax, I know you are very strong in your opinions of MDSr but am interested in who you’d like to see him replace with as coach if he was removed.

Bingo! Oh me oh my!

by ClippersUK on Jul 25, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure - perhaps Kim Hughes

I would suggest if you think MDSr’s a good x’s and o’s coach that you actually watch him coach a few games and reevaluate.

by Jax on Jul 25, 2009 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heck, I'm not objecting Hughes...

anybody else remember when we were down by 20 and Dunleavy got ejected, putting the team in the hands of Kim Hughes? Needless to say, we won that game with only like 1 and a half quarters left.

Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!

by JackduhSun on Jul 26, 2009 4:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hughes reminds me of Jerry Sloan (not coaching but in general). He definitely inst a screamer.

by andrewexd on Jul 27, 2009 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

As usual

you missed the point. The point isn’t about Van Gundy, it’s about how elite coaches attract FAs.

And Van Gundy is one of the reasons Orlando’s playing so well. To not see that is to think MDSr is a good coach. Oh yeah.

by Jax on Jul 25, 2009 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

i am not entirely sold on van gundy as a “good” coach. he has led his team to the playoffs twice.

the year odom was on the team and the east was terrible. and last year.

he hasn’t had to suffer from say a lo tof horrible injuries and his rosters are not exactly threadbare. last years magic team had what 3 all stars on it.

i mean its definitely a league of “what did you do last”. I know most people here think mike dunleavy sucks, i’d just say he is a mediocre coach. He did take a lakers team to the finals, and also took a completely dysfunctional portland team to the brink of the finals.

The coaching job he did with that team, one with bonzi wells, rasheed wallace, and damon stoudamire in it, not to mention uber prima donna at the time, scottie pippen. a talented bunch, but to get them to keep it together i’m sure took at the very least a lot of ego managment.

I think if anything we need to hire the phoenix sun’s training staff. if mike dunleavy runs the team into the ground during a relatively uninjured season then sure get a new coach. but i would say its very difficult to get a coach who is more than mediocre in the nba to begin with, and one who is willing to come to the clippers. mike d’antoni or larry brown is not taking this job any time soon.

by hans007 on Jul 25, 2009 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

“He did take a lakers team to the finals, and also took a completely dysfunctional portland team to the brink of the finals.”

He took them to the finals .. and got fired! Its pretty rare to see that if you ask me. Do you know of any other coach who took their team as far as the finals and then getting fired? Kind of tells you something about Dunleavy doesn’t it?

Heh, if you ask me, that Portland team was super talented. Your right, a very high ego team, but also a very talented one also.

Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!

by JackduhSun on Jul 26, 2009 4:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He also quit after taking PDX to the playoffs multiple times. sabonis, pippen, sheed, wells, there was a ton of talent and he lost a critical game (was it game 7?) to the lakers up by 19 (right?) in the 4th.

by andrewexd on Jul 27, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's NEVER built a team

He inherited the Laker team and the Portland team.

by Jax on Jul 27, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't consider MDSr a bad GM

Look at all the great moves he made this offseason. MDSr is great at micromanaging and seeing potential in young players (sans Korolev). But those 2 characteristics do not translate well when he’s a coach. Micromanaging all his players and using inexperienced players that have not reached their potential is some reasons why he is a bad coach.

So yeah his coaching sucks and he needs to be replaced but I want to keep him as a GM.

by peterghost on Jul 25, 2009 4:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Exactly how I feel. He seems to be improving as GM all the time.

Bingo! Oh me oh my!

by ClippersUK on Jul 25, 2009 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mike Dunleavy's New York

demeanor probably helps him as a GM but it hasn’t helped him as a coach.

In Gordon we trust

by bestclipfan on Jul 25, 2009 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't buy into Dunleavy's potential in young players..

I started keeping track of Dunleavy’s picks after Koralev, as he seemed to have Epicly failed right then and there. Gulliermo Diaz and Paul Davis aren’t really effective players at all. Al Thornton was a steal at #14. The guy was a lock at around 8. If Dunleavy had chose somebody else (besides Stuckey) over Thornton, Dunleavy needs help.

At #7, Gordon should have fallen before that. Although he was probably always projected to fall with the Clippers, had the New York Knicks drafted Gordon, he probably would have taken Gallinari.. or (rumors) Westbrook.

Blake Griffin was the easy choice at the #1 pick. But with Dunleavy as coach.. it kind of makes me question whether Mike ever questioned himself. I mean, Dunleavy seems to love European players (Yoraslav, Beno Udrih, Jose Calderon, [even showed a small affection for Gallinari before the draft].. btw did Dunleavy ever have a love affair with Marko Jaric?)

Im just saying that Dunleavy easily chose the “obvious” in my opinion. I can’t wait til he gets a #15 pick and there really isn’t sure shot talent.

Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!

by JackduhSun on Jul 26, 2009 5:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let's hope he's not here long enough to make a #15 pick (or another pick at all).

by eastie Rich on Jul 26, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't hope he fails just to get him fired

if he succeeds and gets us into the playoffs then I think we should be happy for the team not angry because he won’t be fired, plus any fan who is rooting for the team to fail just to fire the coach needs to reexamine there loyalty to that team.

In Gordon we trust

by bestclipfan on Jul 26, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed Eastie Rich.

Anyways bestclipfan, I don’t think we’re rooting for the Clipps to fail. We’re rooting for the Clipps to get rid of Dunleavy. Even if we make it to the playoffs, I want Dunleavy out of here. I also can’t stand Dunleavy’s style of play. His isolation plays just seem to fail too many times, and when it does fail, the scapegoat seems to fall in the hands of Thornton, which might explain why he didn’t do so well last season.

At this point, I’m still not too sure if I still agree on te Rhino, Sebastian, Madsen trade… It just means that Sessions or AI would not be in LA. Overall though, he’s done an okay job…

Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!

by JackduhSun on Jul 26, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

rooting for them to get rid of the coach is fine

but don’t pull Limbaugh and root for failure (sorry about the political reference couldn’t think of another analogy).

In Gordon we trust

by bestclipfan on Jul 26, 2009 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Come on, just a few days ago I posted I've always wanted the Clippers

to win. I’ve been a fan for twenty years. Three things drove me away, one of the main ones was Dunleavy. I’ve posted many times High School coaches could coach better. I know Dunleavy has some fans here, but he is without doubt the worst coach I’ve ever seen.

Now I haven’t seen them all. But I think most everyone will agree he’s great at calling the wrong play, making the wrong substitution and playing the wrong people in general.

If they’d fired Dunleavy I’d have re-upped. I’m sorry to repeat it, but he flat out suc*s.

by eastie Rich on Jul 28, 2009 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ever since I mentioned in a different

Post a couple of days ago about us all forgetting about giving Mdsr grief about his coaching, it’s all started up again.

We all know he’s not getting fired as coach now so I suggest we give him a fresh chance with the new roster that he’s put together and get behind him. If he’s not sorted his rotations and new style out by 20 games and we aren’t competitive then push for him to be fired.

BTW, I’m for keeping him as GM but wanted him replaced as coach

Bingo! Oh me oh my!

by ClippersUK on Jul 26, 2009 4:02 PM PDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs

What happens if these were your options:

Keep DUnleavy as GM and coach, or have a new GM and a new coach?

You know my answer.. ough2ndcough

Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!

by JackduhSun on Jul 26, 2009 11:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tough call that

Because I like some continuity and I actually like the majority of what Dunleavy has done as a GM so far. It’s not perfect but show me a GM who is.

The coaching side has just gone completely downhill in the last couple of years and this was highlighted by last years fiasco.

I’d have to “plead the 5th” – isn’t that what Americans say when they don’t want to answer!!!!!

Seriously, I could answer that question half way through this season but not now. If he changes our style to suit our players and makes compromises with Baron that help the team rather than hurt it, I’d give him his last chance and a run till the end of the season.

Bingo! Oh me oh my!

by ClippersUK on Jul 27, 2009 3:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Prediction

Dunleavy will coach until the end of his contract, be replaced as head coach by Kim Hughes. It will be his decision if he wants to stay on as GM. Just the fact that he was able to stay afloat last season shows how much pull he has with Sterling.

by ghost_ride on Jul 26, 2009 5:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Not sure I get why people think Kim Hughes is the guy.

I don’t dislike him, I just don’t know anything about him. It seems to me there’s a pretty big gap between a good assistant and a good head coach. That said, it’s pretty hard to see that difference from a fan’s limited POV.
I also think Dunleavy’s pull with Sterling is totally defined by the length and expense of his contract. If he was cheaper or on a short contract, he’d be gone.

by swamigusto on Jul 27, 2009 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hughes, Dunleavy

Dunleavy has been on the chopping block, or has at least approached it a couple of times (especially last year), but it seems like he’s weathered the storm and it’s his team now and has been for quite a while. If he doesn’t screw up this year, it will probably continue to be and Hughes is the logical choice because he’s a Dunleavy guy and has put in his time under him and with the organization as the defacto 2nd in command.

Hughes shows a good mix of being under control, yet being able to yell in a guys ear if he has to, but you’re right, he’s unproven as a head coach but deserves a shot if it makes sense and the timing is right.

by ghost_ride on Jul 27, 2009 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I certainly don't disagree...

I think the issue with Dunleavy moving upstairs is one of salary. How much do GM’s make? Not nearly what coaches make. So Dun would have to take much less money to play that GM role… even though most of us agree it would be a better fit. Then perhaps Hughes slides down the bench.
Did Riley take less money to move upstairs with the Heat? Or was he given an ownership position?
The thing that I like about Hughes is he doesn’t seem to have the need to micro-manage the team on the floor… at least not in the brief moments we’ve seen him at the helm.

by swamigusto on Jul 27, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't understand

Isn’t this the final year of Dunleavy’s contract ? why the hell would we re-hire him at any cost ?

by andrewexd on Jul 27, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

no, its not normal for an organization to fire a gm / coach on one job and keep him at another. (see – Thomas, Isaiah

by andrewexd on Jul 27, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Dunleavy has another year after this one.

There’s been plenty of examples of GM’s becoming coaches and vice-versa, McHale last year, Riley… twice. Isaia, and most significantly, Popovich used to be the GM, fired the coach, had both jobs for awhile before he named RC Buford the GM. IMO, there’s nothing to be learned here.

by swamigusto on Jul 27, 2009 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs