About that other LA team
by citizen zhiv on Jul 3, 2009 7:01 PM PDT
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PrintI'm promoting Citizen Zhiv's excellent Lakers post to the front page - I'm not actually sure why Zhiv relegated himself to the sidebar in the first place. I have a couple of additional thoughts on Ariza/Artest as well. The story prior to these signings was that Ariza was disappointed that the Lakers weren't willing to go higher than the MLE. So it makes little sense that he would turn around and sign for the MLE with another team. But if Ariza was unwilling to give the Lakers a post ring discount, and the Lakers were equally unwilling to give Ariza a post ring bonus, it seems to indicate that things aren't all that wonderful in purple and gold. It does seem strange to have Ariza and Battier on the same team. I can't think of another team, really ever, who had two such glue guys starting on the wings - NBA teams almost ALWAYS have a primary scoring threat on the wing. What is TMac's status? Did they sign Ariza to the full MLE to come off the bench? Is Battier coming off the bench? Morey knows what he likes, and Adelman can coach, and Houston has been the single biggest over-achiever in the NBA for two straight years, playing competitively even as their mega-stars drop like flies - so it will be interesting to see what happens. But with Yao's injury, TMac's uncertainty and Artest gone, from a Clipper-centric standpoint it's hard not to think that a spot at the playoff table just opened up.
As for the Lakers, Zhiv hints at what I'll say outright - that team is loaded, and would likely be the favorite to win another title in almost any scenario. BUT the one thing that can screw up a loaded team is bad chemistry, and there's a boatload of that in Ron Artest's brain. He's the one guy in the NBA I would not have touched if I was Mitch Kupchak, talented as he is.
Zhiv after the jump.
Listened to a fair amount of commentary about the Artest-Ariza switch today. It's kind of funny how people become optimistic (!) when events change. Human nature I guess.
One way that it does make sense to me is if you look at Artest as a replacement for BOTH Ariza and Odom. He combines features of the two players, especially for defense and rebounding purposes, although he's not nearly the rebounder that LO is. The assumption here, of course, is that the Lakers don't resign Odom and have no intention of doing so.
It happens to be Odom's bad luck that he's a UFA in a horrible financial offseason. You know it's bad when people are freaking out at 5yr/50mil deals as if they're ridiculously expensive. People have pretty short memories I guess. Wait until the numbers start getting thrown around next year. And that's what LO should probably do, sign a one-year deal somewhere. He's a chump, and it would be extremely disappointing, if he signs a longterm deal with the Lakers for well below his value, at the 5yrs/40mil number that's being tossed around. A chump, because the Lakers would be valuing him at 80 million, only they would be paying half of that to him and the other half to the rest of the league.
Apparently no one notified most commentators on the Lakers about the "Glue Guy" concept. We're familiar with it here in Clipperdom because of Al Thornton's shortcomings. Thornton is no Artest, although he seems more rational and more of a solid citizen, but Artest uses his strength and size to play defense in ways that Thornton has never dreamed of.
But my question is whether the Lakers watched the tape of their own victory over the Rockets before they signed Artest. Houston was surprisingly competitive with the Lakers, taking them to 7 games as we know, going on runs and getting stops and winning games. Maybe it was just me, but the guy who seemed to stop Houston more often than not was Artest himself, not just missing shots, although he certainly did plenty of that, but because he was a black hole and once the ball went to him it didn't come out. Mark Jackson, commenting, kept saying that at times it was the fault of the Rocket pgs, because they needed to know to keep the ball out of his hands.
It seems clear that Daryl Morey, he of the careful breakdown of the Battier "intangibles," grabbed Ariza so quickly because he saw him as a young Glue Guy with upside, at a great price.
Does anybody think that Houston beats the Lakers in that series if Ariza (shooting well from deep) plays for the Rockets, and Artest (clanking and ballstopping) plays for the Lakers? The series itself won't be duplicated and Houston faces some new challenges, but did the Lakers ask themselves this question? And with Bynum less of a factor than might have been expected, what was the big difference between the championship Lakers and the team that lost to Boston: a healthy and effective Trevor Ariza.
The Lakers do have a good Glue Guy on their roster, and they're paying him a lot of money: Luke Walton. I don't know if it's underappreciated that the Lakers were able to start Ariza and bring Odom off the bench, but it made them an extremely formidable squad. Odom himself seems pretty gluey, by the way--something other teams should realize as he sits out there, available. If Odom leaves the Lakers would have a powerful starting lineup, with Bynum-Gasol-Artest-Kobe vaguely reminiscent of Shaq-Malone-Kobe-Payton. People talk about how well Phil Jackson handled Dennis Rodman, but Rodman was a very specific creature, and it's significant that he had zero needs on offense. Artest is a different story, and note the articles from Houston about how that team isn't going to miss him at all. At any rate, without Odom around, the Lakers Glue Guy (Walton) will be coming off the bench and he doesn't defend or rebound particularly well. Or does anybody think that Artest will come off the bench as peacefully as Odom did last season? You want a scorer like Thornton or an all-purpose talent like Odom coming off the bench anyway, not an Artest.
I'm actually surprised that the Lakers spent the money at all, and they may well be able to make a deal with Odom. As long as they have Kobe and Gasol they're going to be a great team. But there are a lot of great teams, and they'll have some significant new challenges with this latest move.
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That's a nice breakdown. I wouldn't have gone after Artest. Frankly, I think Ariza
performed at a much higher level thoughout the playoffs than Artest. And Artest has alot of baggage. At what point in the season do he and Kobe butt heads? Although it may not happen, I think it’s safe to think it will.
Which brings me to another topic. The Cavs get Shaq, Orlando gets VC (I think it’s a mistake to let Turk go). Portland gets Hedo. Detroit gets Gordon and Villanueva. And the Clippers essentially trade ZBO for Q. Doesn’t quite add up.
I mean yes, they could bump heads
but its the playoffs. Off court, Artest and Bryant have acknowledge to being good friends.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Sidebar
Put it in the FanPosts because I didn’t want to write about the Lakers, in such an exclusive way (a little bit of Houston material of course, and AGGT), on the front page.
Go Clippers!
Spot On!
Great post Zhiv. I was thinking almost the exact same thing when I heard that Artest was going to the Lakers.
Artest, for all the good things he does on the court defensively, still commands the ball quite a bit on the offensive end. I am not totally sure Artest will be happy running the triangle, and averaging only 9 points a game. I see the Lakers having the same issues that the Lakers team with Shaq, Kobe, Malone and Payton had (along with two super glue guys in DFish and Rick Fox)…a very good team, but chemistry may be the primary issue (along with the health of Bynum). I am very skeptical of this whole situation, and will not be surprised if it all blows up. I will also not be surprised if they roll through the season and win a championship with ease. Afterall, Artest did play with TMac and Yao last year (albeit not for the whole season of course), and the Rockets did overachieve a little.
It will be interesting to see if LO does return to the Lakers at a drastic discount. My guess is that he signs a one year deal somewhere else, and waits for the summer bonanza of 2010. Then again, fielding a team of Kobe, LO, Artest, Pau and Bynum in the fourth quarter of a playoff game sounds pretty near invincible as well.
Do or do not. There is no try.
Interesting post, but boy I disagree
Artest is a great player. Houston overachieved in the playoffs primarily because he kept the reeling team together. They had no go to scorers left – Artest is a scorer, but not really a go to scorer. Good playoff teams need three solid scorers and one go to guy.
Artest is also friends with Kobe. Actually he reveres Kobe, and will likely do anything for him. Were you aware of that, Zhiv? The Lakers are lucky to have him.
Ariza is a pretty good role player, albeit not the brightest bulb on the tree. He’s the guy who left the Bruins after his freshman year because he didn’t want to play for Howland – he actually thought Steve Lavin was a good coach. So he left early for the NBA and wallowed in obscurity for years (kudos to him for somehow sticking it out) until he got lucky and was picked up by a Laker team who already had a go to guy and three other very solid scorers. He excelled in that role, but elsewhere he’s going to find things much much tougher. IMO there is absolutely no comparison between Artest and Ariza. (Please spare me the statistical comparisons.)
What Zhiv said about Odom is unnecessary. I’m surprised actually that he attacked someone who really doesn’t deserve that kiknd of vitriol. Zhiv, have you ever met the guy? I have. He gives back to the community in ways that I doubt you’ve ever thought of, much less understand. He’s basically a shy introverted family guy who doesn’t want to play anywhere else even if he gets more money. At least that’s what I understand the situation to be. Does that make him a “chump?” Not in my view.
I guess Zhiv thinks that anyone is a chump who chooses to take less money because he would rather have a better quality of life. Even though he’d still be making several million dollars a year. Memo to Zhiv – not everyone thinks like you do.
Jax disagree?
Shocker.
Actually, I’m not an especially argumentative guy, and I just try to make some points as they come to me. I see all of your points, Jax.
Yes, Artest is friends with Kobe and “reveres” him, and he’s a great player who does a lot of good things on the court. And I suppose that the Lakers are lucky to have him. I was surprised that they spent the money on him, to tell the truth, and probably a little jealous.
He just seems to be a dangerous substance to add to the mix. He has greatly helped to make his teams contenders in the past, and he’s a handful for opponents on both ends. But he seems volatile, and a bit difficult to manage.
On top of that, the Lakers had a bad experience with this kind of problem before, when Malone and Payton joined Shaq and Kobe. But maybe they’ve learned from that experience—and Kobe very much seems like a guy who doesn’t make the same mistake twice.
I do disagree, pretty strongly, with the idea that Artest was carrying Houston in the playoffs, or “reeling them together” as you put it, whatever that means. Maybe others have an opinion on that one.
On Ariza, I was extremely disappointed when he left UCLA—the guy I really thought was making a big mistake, one that hurt the Bruins even worse, was Jaron Rush, but I digress. But I don’t hold it against him. You’re absolutely right that he was lucky and was a role player on an extremely talented team. Yes, it’s going to be much tougher to play on a team that isn’t loaded with elite players.
I don’t think that comparing Artest and Ariza makes a lot of sense. They do different things. I guess my point is that the Lakers would be better off if Ariza had Luke Walton’s contract. I’m not trying to suggest that he’s anything more than a fifth starter, a glue guy, an MLE player, but a very good one. The role that Ariza played on that championship team happens to be something I admire. He seemed to have both humility and toughness and gave a great effort. He didn’t force things or take bad shots, and he hit the shots he needed to. It was impressive. I don’t think the Lakers did the wrong thing in not signing him. They should live (and play) with the inflated contract that they gave Luke Walton and make the best of it, and they invested in Andrew Bynum as well.
Artest is a different story. He’s complex. We’ll see how far his friendship with Kobe goes once they start playing. Basketball players seem to have a pretty good idea of who guys are and how they play, and Kobe and Artest have a lot of mutual respect and have wanted to play together for awhile, so that counts for a lot. You’re right, generally speaking, and it’s probably the most important thing. But you can allow me to be skeptical, to hold my own opinion, based on Artest’s history and seeming personality.
I’m surprised that you call my comments on Odom an attack. I’ve been pulling for Odom and I like the guy now more than I have ever since he left the Clippers. He was impressive, he’s a great player, and he showed maturity and stepped up and made plays. I’d love to see Odom play great on a team where he is more the focal point, as he would have been had he stayed with the Clippers, rather than alongside an all-consuming personality like Kobe. I’m probably asking him—in the nicest way I can—to hold himself at a higher value for selfish reasons, to keep the Lakers from being a superteam. We’ll see if Kobe doesn’t value himself highly when he signs his extension. Will he do what Tim Duncan did? Doubtful. Pao gets paid, Andrew Bynum is getting paid. At 29 Odom gets to sign one more big deal, the same deal that Kobe made when he flirted with signing with the Clippers, and Kobe wasn’t being so selfless then. If Lamar was 32 or 33, if he had been bouncing around with a relative lack of success (like Artest), it would be different. It’s one thing to come off the bench on a championship team. It’s another thing to leave 20 million on the table and sign with a team that has to pay the luxury tax to keep you.
I guess one thing I value is humility. Odom has it, and I respect it. Believe me, I’m the last guy to think that money is more important than quality of life. Maybe chump was too strong, or sent the wrong message. The problem I have is with the Lakers and their dominance. No problems whatsoever with Lamar Odom at this point.
I think I overstated my position
Sorry about that – I just happen to have met him and to know what good he brings to the community. And after I posted that I realized that you were more hoping for the Lakers to lose Odom than making a statement about Odom’s character.
Also, Odom performs better with someone like Kobe than as the lead guy. That’s just how he’s wired.
I say that instead of worrying about the Lakers, we do what we can to create a similar winning atmosphere for the Clippers so we could be in the position of retaining people like Odom long term.
by Jax on Jul 4, 2009 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions
No worries
All good.
And yes, I agree about focusing on the Clippers—that’s why I put the original post up over in the fanposts.
I find the free agency period fascinating, especially after last year and now with the interesting movements already in these first few days. And now that the Clips traded Randolph and will be players next year, it’s even more intriguing. And you’re right—creating a “winning atmosphere” is extremely important. The way that the final 09-10 roster shapes up, and obviously the way that the Clippers play this season, will be crucial to their fortunes at this time next year.
Yeah, LO is a nice complementary player to Kobe. But wouldn’t he have been a great complement to FElton, Maggs, Jaric, etc., if the Clips had matched the Miami offer?
“Retaining” Odom back in the day sets up an interesting question. First, there was that paperwork issue which allowed Miami to make him the offer. Then there’s the question of whether Miami overpaid for him. Probably not, as it turns out: Miami was able to use Odom’s pricey deal to trade for Shaq and win a championship, and then LO was able to contribute mightily to win his own title with the Lakers this year. Still, the number certainly seems high when you look at what guys are signing for in this funky year. And it makes it that much more unfortunate that he seems to be having a hard time getting to the 10m/yr that he’s clearly worth.
Good points
I think he would have been a good compliment to EB and Maggs. But I think he really shines with a player like Kobe or Lebron guiding him.
What's wrong with "he kept the reeling team together"?
Is reeling misspelled? Wrong context?
Huh.
by Jax on Jul 5, 2009 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions
My bad
Oops—another zhiv mess up. Little things can go wrong, it seems, when we engage in substantive dialogue, Jax—who knew?
I read it as “reeling them together,” as if Artest was the prime mover in stabilizing and balancing Houston’s attack. What you actually said was that he kept “the reeling team together.” I’m not sure there’s a substantive difference between the two statements, but I’ll allow myself to think I wouldn’t have made the point if I had read it correctly. I think you were right. Is it possible that Artest kept the reeling team together, without actually reeling them together himself? Sure, why not. That’s the kind of subtlety we specialize in here at ClipsNation!
I would propose “substantive” as the word of the day, writing it twice in three sentences, although “reeling” is a fine candidate, but the winner has to be SP’s “Clippernoia” over in the other thread.
Lakers "have no intention of signing Odom?"
That’s a very odd comment. The Lakers will almost certainly offer Odom 8 M/yr, and probably 9 M/yr now that they have to worry about Portland going after Odom. To think otherwise it I feel a serious misreading of how much the Laker front office respects Odom for going to the bench in his contract year.
"No Intention"
Yeah, that’s probably overstated. It’s just a theory—that spending 36 million on Artest (18 plus 18 in tax) is insurance against spending 80 million (40 plus 40) on Odom.
I have no doubt that the Lakers value Odom. It’s just a question of how deeply they want to cut into their profits, while not paying the player.
Lakers are changing.
For many years, the Lakers have signed players based off of a single season performance with little regards to the Salary Cap. How else does Sasha and Luke get over 5 a year?
It’s very interesting to see Kupchak sit back and let the market determine the price, which unless Odom wants to play in Oklahoma or Portland the Lakers can pretty much match and retain Lamar. I don’t see the Lakers going over 9 Million to retain Lamar.
Question?
How much ownership does Jerry Buss actually still have? I know that Anschutz owns 25% and it’s believed that Magic retains 10%. So has the collective ownership of the Team given Kupchak a directive to reduce operating cost? Cause it seems as if Buss is done with the Lakers.
Houston got the better of the deal
Ariza is improving. Artest is declining. Artest will be distracted in LA. There is a reason he has been trying to land here for the last four years, and it isn’t entirely basketball. Artest has a tendency to jack up bad shots.
Houston now has a group of scrappy players. Ariza, Battier, Scola, Landry, Hayes, Brooks. They will have a nice year.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
are u serious??
lakers got da better deal out of this…. sure ariza was a big key to da lakers but any time u have ron artest to your already championship caliber team.. thats a big plus… and he signed for MLE… u will never see anyone (dantay jones) trip or try to punk kobe… cuz u know artest will kick their ass ahahahh..
Blazers would be deadly with Odom
I think the Lakers would have to match that deal. If they lose Odom and Ariza for essentially Artest thats a downgrade.
The Blazers would be scary with Odom. A front line of Oden, Aldridge and Odom with Roy and Steve Blake in the backcourt would be nuts. With Fernandez, Outlaw, Webster, Pryzbilla, Bayless and Batum thats a good bench as well. Probabaly irrelevant as the Lakers will certainly pay Odom 9mil/year.
FA in 2010.
The chances of Odom leaving are nil
He has an extremely depressed market, even more so than Ariza. The only team that has cap space and is willing to throw it around is Portland, who is targeting David Lee at the moment. OKC has taken itself out of the free agent frenzy, Memphis did so with the Randolph trade, and Sacramento is unwilling to spend. Lakers could keep him for $21-24 million and three years, although the contract he’ll eventually get will probably be a bit higher. Also, one of the nice side-effects of the Artest signing is that Odom has another good incentive to return — he and Artest are childhood friends.
In terms of Artest’s offensive limitations, it is important to remember what role he had in Houston’s offense, especially after McGrady and Yao bowed out with injuries. The onus for generating offense was put squarely on Artest’s shoulders, and that’s a recipe for disaster, largely owing to his tendency to throw up awful shots in these situations. The best example was after Yao went out in the Lakers-Rockets series; Artest was basically the only guy remaining on the team besides Brooks who could generate his own shot, and by necessity, had to push shots against a pretty solid defense.
On the flip side, let’s remember Artest’s strengths, namely his awesome post-up ability due to his size advantage on the grand majority of wings in the league and highly accurate shooting when his feet are set. In LA, he’s not the first option in the offense anymore. That distinction goes to Kobe, who is followed by Gasol. Depending who is on the floor, Bynum or Odom may deserve touches before Artest. Let’s remember how Ariza was getting all his shot opportunities — off his teammates creating openings for him. The vast majority of his treys, one of the reasons he was so highly valued this off-season, were on wide open shots. And for all we know, it was a month-long blip that could reverse itself next year while Artest was 40% from three-point range. The value of having four out of five starters able to post up players is especially valuable, especially in the triangle.
Now, am I completely discarding the notion that Artest will fight against fitting in the offense? Certainly not. I expect a rough transition for the first chunk of the season, and a handful of ill-advised shot attempts a game, much like the pull-up jumpers in transition Fisher loves that causes Laker Nation to slam their palms into their faces. There are two factors that work in the Lakers’ favor that I believe will mollify this as the season progresses. One, this is perhaps the strongest locker room culture Artest could have moved into with the possible exception of Boston’s: Kobe’s and Fisher’s locker room gravitas, Phil’s savvy with handling players and maximizing their potential, and Odom’s presence as Artest’s buddy. Despite the differences between the two players, remember that Rodman behaved on the court because he respected Jordan and Phil. That dynamic is awfully similar here with Artest and his relationship with Kobe and Phil. Secondly, Artest is playing for a championship. This is his chance to silence some of his critics, prove that he is a worthy contributor to a contender, and salvage the reputation that is still smoldering from his night in the Palace.
And even beyond these issues, the place where I have no doubts Artest will contribute is the defensive end. While we remember Ariza favorably on this end, notably with his epic inbound steals in the Denver series, he also have to remember he was a liability for a good chunk of the playoffs. In the Houston series, the same Artest overpowered him on post-up opportunities and drives. Melo did the same thing in the Denver series, ultimately forcing Kobe to guard him for extended periods, a dangerous proposition. Practically every contender out there has a solid or superstar wing: Boston (Pierce), Orlando (Carter), Cleveland (LeBron), San Antonio (Ginobli/Jefferson), Denver (Melo). Artest is the answer to that. He takes pressure off Kobe on the defensive end as Kobe begins the twilight of his career, and the more energy he can conserve for the offensive end, the better.
Altogether, this was a gutsy move by Kupchak that I expect to have short-term difficulties, but one we will see pan out in the end.
Not so sure....
With a championship added to Odom’s accomplishments and his age, this might be his last professional contract in the NBA. Unlike his self destructive friend Ron Ron, Odom knows this is a business and his days are limited. So putting his chances at Nil does not seem appropiate. For if he was coming back wouldn’t the commitment had already been made?
With being a restricted FA, and New Yorks willingness and ability to match David Lee offer, makes teams willing to commit cap and wait for New York to match is about Nil. Portland will not allow New York to wait 7 days while other free agents sign. Furthermore, I believe that Walsh would match Lee and then try to work out a trade once the price is set, if they really wanted to end the tenure of Lee with the Knicks. Lee would probably be best served to accept the offer sheet and then hit the market during the year of the LeBron,
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