If the Clippers Wanted Shawn Marion...
by Steve Perrin on Jul 7, 2009 10:28 AM PDT
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PrintThe Clippers are one of the few teams in the NBA with an avenue for paying Shawn Marion more than the Mid Level Exception. And of the other teams who could conceivably do so, none have shown much interest, leaving the field virtually wide open.
By announcing that they plan to sign Hedo Turkoglu, the Raptors have created quite an interesting situation with Marion. Free agents generally have a handful of options on the open market. Most teams have no more than the MLE to spend, so good players usually have their choice of destinations if they are willing to sign for the MLE or less. But if they hope to make MORE than the MLE, their options become more narrow. First and most obviously, there are the teams with enough cap space to make a higher offer. After that, the only option is a sign-and-trade transaction, which can be complicated to complete.
In Marion's case the prospects don't look particularly good for either. With Memphis and Detroit having used their space, only Portland and Oklahoma City are left with enough cap space to make a serious offer - and those teams have shown no interest in Marion thus far.
As for the sign-and-trade route, it's virtually impossible for the Raptors to trade Marion for another player. In order to land Turkoglu tomorrow when the moratorium ends, they have to clear every cent of payroll they can - that means no salary on their books for Marion, nor for any replacement for Marion. Dallas has an incredibly useful trade chip in Jerry Stackhouse, with a $7M cap number, but only $2M guaranteed. But even a S&T with Stackhouse would be $2M more than the Raptors can afford. According to Marc Stein the Mavs and Raptors are looking for a third team to help facilitate the transaction because "this will be a difficult deal to complete without a third team to help make the salary-cap math work." But "difficult" is not really the word I would use. I'm a pretty smart guy, and I'm hard-pressed to figure out how Marion gets his Dallas payday AND the Raptors clear their cap space even with a third team involved.
So Marion will just have to settle for the MLE, right? Maybe not.
I said above that it's virtually impossible for the Raptors to trade Marion for another player. But the Raptors can meet their cap-clearing needs by trading for a trade exception. As it happens, the Clippers have one of those - and at $7.3M, it is (a) more than the MLE and (b) right in the price range that the Mavs are apparently offering Marion (Stackhouse's $7M). As far as I know, only the Clippers and the Nuggets (from the Marcus Camby deal) have a trade exception in hand larger than the MLE, and with the Nuggets right on the cusp of the luxury tax, I don't expect them to use theirs (not to mention that they have Carmelo Anthony already).
Eric Pincus recently said that the Clippers were not interested in Marion. But I'm wondering if this unique opportunity is too good to pass up. If, for instance, Marion were willing to sign a one year deal with the Clippers for $7.4M (the value of their exception plus $100K being the maximum they can offer under the collective bargaining agreement), that would be a no-brainer, right? To get a one year rental on Shawn Marion AND still preserve 2010 cap space. And Marion might actually consider it as a do-over on free agency, taking his chances in the hopefully more liquid 2010 market. A multi-year deal would be a much tougher call for the Clippers - is Shawn Marion the player for whom you want to sacrifice that delicious 2010 max offer space?
And what about the player? Well, in many ways Marion is the all-purpose small forward that we've been pining for in Clips Nation - the quintessential glue guy. My Detroit buddy Timmy T, who is a sometime though not regular citizen, recently asked me for a definition of 'glue guy'. If you've been reading the Clipperblogger Summit, you know that it's not an easy question to answer. But as I thought about it some more, I think I realized the key element. Glue. Glue holds things together. There is no need for glue when you've only got one thing - so to me, the distinction of the glue guy is in the attributes that have little to do with his individual performance. It's true that a great individual player can also be a great glue guy - LeBron James and Tim Duncan come to mind - but we tend to use the term to describe players that don't at first appear to be great at the individual aspects of the game, especially scoring. So a 'glue guy' should be able to do everything else well and should be happy doing so: defense, rebounding, spacing, hustle, passing - the things you do without the ball in your hands.
Shawn Marion is a great rebounder - one of the best rebounding small forwards in the history of the league. He's a top defender, capable of defending four positions on the floor. He fills lanes and spaces the floor, and generally gets his points without ever having a play called for him. If indeed the Clippers are intent on running this season, he would be almost the ideal starting small forward. And with Al Thornton sliding into the microwave position as the first scorer off the bench, it would be easy to keep Marion's minutes down and hopefully keep him fresh and healthy.
But there is a downside to this idea to be certain. Marion is 31. A one year rental does little or nothing for the team in the long term. You could argue that Marion could be a mentor for Thornton - but you could just as easily argue that he could be an obstacle to his development. And it goes without saying that a multi-year deal, while representing a longer term view of Marion's service with the team, has it's own problems - dependence on an aging former star, and loss of future cap flexibility.
The clock is ticking on this idea. When the moratorium ends tomorrow, the Raptors will start the ball rolling on their Turkoglu transaction. They'll have to resolve their Marion situation before they can sign Hedo, and the most likely resolution is to simply renounce Marion - ending any possibility of a sign and trade and taking the Clippers' trade exception out of the picture.
It's an intriguing situation, and one that arguably falls into the category of "great value" which a team insider described to Kevin Arnovitz on Clipperblog recently.
So what would you do?
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Comments
The years are the deal breaker
I think this would have been more considered if there was a possibility of him signing a one year deal. Seems to be keeping it from happening. He prolly senses that there is amulti-year deal out there for him.
It gets me very excited to think about adding him into the mix of players we have currently. plus i dont think anyone noticed, but we need minutes at the 4. if not marion, we need someone who can come in and put some bruises on people at times (maybe voskul is available, hehe).
Is there any possibility of getting creative with StickyRicky and renouncing Novak to get that number higher after the TurkeyLou signing happens? In lieue of a trade? Admittedly this could be more complicated than the trade itself (i know everyone loves novak), but i think that would put us around the same number of available cap space, while letting marion do his due-diligence on the availability of his services on the open market, rather than being force-fed a trade. the grass is always greener when you have an agent.
I’m somewhat of a rube as far as the way all the contracts work, so please inform if i am talking crazy stuff here.
Clippers Basketball.... It's Masochistic!
apparently,
Marion wanted 8 years at 24mil from Toronto, so his price tag doesn’t need to go that high just as a 1 year loner. Personally I think we’d need to resign Novak (RFA) anyways because he’s healthy and has that 3 ball. Although I’m not sure Marion is the defensive help we need at the 3, although he would get more rebounds than Thorton, Gordon & Davis combined every night.
LOL good catch
I think what chrisd meant was 8 mils, 3 years,= 24 mils for a 3 year contract.
Unless chrisd meant 24 mils every year for the next 8 years… which I could see that likely becuase Marion was always complainging about wanting more money from Phoenix…
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
uh,
i could be totally wrong but i was under the idea that if we first traded our exemption to toronto for Marion if they signer him for a one year at the price of our exemption, we could then trade 1 year of Marion for Battier? Personally i like the way our team is right now and don’t want to do more trades at the moment, but I think Battier is a better fit than Marion who this post was about. Guess it all comes down to who would be a better fit for the Clippers, Marion or Battier or Joe Johnson for that matter?
marion is a fine defensive player
he guards the 2, which makes him really valuable. i have watched marion do a nice job on kobe guarding him man to man on several occasions throughout the years.
gordon is small and is going to start seeing the back of bigger 2s on the blocks. its simply inevitable.
marion has great feet, he’s super long, has great twitch reflex and he jumps the passing lane really well for a bigger player.
Clippers Basketball.... It's Masochistic!
Three-way?
To be clear, is Dallas/Toronto hoping that we would step in as the third party to setup something like this?
Dallas gets: Marion
Toronto gets: our trade exception
We get: expiring Stackhouse contract
I say NO! Why would we ever help a western conference team without getting ANYTHING in return? I suppose if Stackhouse were 6 years younger this might basketball sense.
Well, as described...
Of course no one would do that deal. It helps the Mavs, and costs the Clippers $2M. We would have to get Stackhouse AND $3M cash for it to even come close to making sense. Stackhouse AND cash AND a pick…. now I start to get interested.
I’ll admit, I hadn’t thought of the trade exception as the third team…. Denver might do it for $3M, since they are so cash-strapped.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jul 7, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions
The Mavs are working a sign and trade
But the team that takes Stack will most likely be a team such as the Jazz, wanting salary cap relief.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.-1984 George Orwell.
1 Year Deal
Nothing more.
We need to be competitive to reinvent our image and attract the more quality FAs.
Marion can come in and help us now, without jeopardizing our future.
Taking Marion as our 3 and sliding Thornton to the bench would be monumental in making us competitive.
PG: BD
SG: EJ
SF: SM
PF: BG
C: Kaman/Camby
That right there is a BEAST lineup.
I'd do it
If Marion were willing to sign a one year deal with us I would do it. If we made some decent progress then we could re sign Marion if we didn’t grab any top tier free agents in 2010. You have to wonder though, does Marion only care about money ? He could sign with the cavs for one year and possibly win a championship BUT the problem with that is he would get less minutes and less production which would lead to less money.
one more point,
One thing that I did not notice being mentioned is one of the most important. Not the mentoring of al thornton, who, to a measure, seems to be on the path of a ben gordan calling as a complementary piece more then a focal point. Our recent transactions have us lining up with showing much interest in the 2010 free agency market. sighing shawn m. longer then one year would be detrimental; he is athletic, so he is not decreasing any time soon. and to be a bench player: he would be more like iverson than grant hill in accepting it in the 2010-11 year, to be signed long term. shawn marion should be absolutely signed for one year and used to give us the best record possible at the end of the year to make this franchise as attractive as possible to the likes of a lebron james, allowing an open spot for him. marion should show lebron how successful the team was and how much better they can be with an even better player fitting right in. otherwise i don’t see why we tried to clear out for next year, if we’re not going to set us up with the best chance possible at just that.
by Takebb909 on Jul 7, 2009 10:43 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
This
1 year as the blueprint for LBJ.
Posted from the blackberry again yay!
by John R on Jul 7, 2009 11:09 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
First mobile comment?
Pretty sweet, John?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jul 7, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
GREAT!
John R vs. Jax threads can continue despite bathroom breaks!
Roger Sterling: I bet there were people in the Bible walking around, complaining about "kids today."
Don Draper: Kids today, they have no one to look up to. Cuz they're looking up to us.
by Lawler's Law on Jul 7, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Can't we get higher?
If Toronto’s willing to take on $2mm for Stack, couldn’t we sweeten the deal for Toronto by adding RIcky Davis ($2.4) plus a 2nd round pick. 1 year for SM around $9.5mm, so they would push harder also. Also, with the veteran’s exception, wouldn’t the league pick up part of RD’s salary? Toronto only gets down to 2 if they cut Stack, so I don’t think it applies.
Hey, Stack's contract is worth $ 7.25 MM but only cost you $2MM to waive.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.-1984 George Orwell.
One year, but questioning his gluosity
The one year deal would work well, I think. I think in KA’s post his source mentioned how the trade exception will get more and more valuable as the season gets started, and some teams see that they’re not competing. The reverse of this, of course, is that the Clips need to compete themselves.
I’m trying to understand Marion’s Glue Guy rating. The rebounding, defense, hustle and finishing ability are definitely there. He’s good at spacing and can hit shots at times, although he goes cold at others—although that shooting inconsistency is “prolly” a factor that downgrades stars to glue guys. But I don’t know about his ball-handling and his need to shoot. Just some questions there.
And he’s apparently not a great locker room presence, and so I think the mentoring factor with Thornton and Griffin is out. He got the first big contract at Phoenix, before Nash arrived and before they paid Stoudamire, and he was always bummed, apparently, that Nash was getting all of the attention, along with Stat, and he wanted to be seen as an equal star. He thought that he was more of a player than he was, and didn’t see that D’Antoni’s system and playing with Nash were perfect for him. That’s kind of a strong anti-glue factor. It’d be interesting to see what he would do with BDavis, and having Camby around would be helpful.
I don’t see how you get a better guy for a one-year deal, so I don’t know that there’s anything to wait around for. But it’s still tricky.
Got to roll the dice sometime, but it’d be nice to be able to do it without taking the Clips out of the game for next summer.
it does say something
when Toronto finally gets a good SF, but doesn’t prioritize resigning him to play alongside Bosh? Hmmmm…
not sure it was not liking Marion...
As much as it was being enamored with TurkeyLou.
Remember that Marion wanted 3/24 from TOR.
TOR having just seen TurkeyLou light it up in the playoffs figured that for 2 mil more they could have a more coveted player and went with it.
Clippers Basketball.... It's Masochistic!
by Clipochistic on Jul 7, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
No big deal, but...
why are you misspelling Turkoglu? Dude made a name for himself this year, learn it! =)
Sucuk it up!
Because he is from Turkey..
(Sucuk is a Turkish Sausage, not some kind of insult)
He also looks like he could be a ‘Lou’.
It just works for me ;)
Clippers Basketball.... It's Masochistic!
by Clipochistic on Jul 7, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Good post
Not sure that Marion – who thrived in the D’Antoni system – would thrive in an MDSr system. I would love to trust the GM’s analysis, but the GM thought BD would be a good fit here as well.
I am not sure I’d do it.
Good point Zhiv
His brooding in Phoenix was anti-glue… but his pretty damn gluey on the court.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jul 7, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions
'glue-factor'
Where Bruce Bowen is a 9 in stickyness, I say Shawn Marion would be an 8, tying his glue factor with that of Robert Horry, not to be confused with ‘clutch-ness’. A players stickyness is measured on a broad scale with the main factor being that players strength’s being able to be what the team he needs. glue-factor: wake makes a player a glue guy is there ability to 1) hold the cosmos in balance. that means being able to hold together the Sun and the Moon, that the the first and second Banana or option on the team. like a Kobe and a Pau. Where as those two guys abilities would be wasted energy spread abroad, the glue guy holds those tscattered energies in place, diving for loose balls, taking charges. The glue guy is the joint between the upper arm and forearm. 2) The glue-guy is the on court ‘rally monkey, making the dive for the call or the charge, the glue guy is the momentum swinger. When the Alpha male and his sidekick are down by eleven and are almostat each others throat, the glue guy sticks to his job holding onto the task and nails the set 3 or nabs the steal, frustrates the opposition, he is the unsung hero, he is the ’indian’ to the ‘too many chiefs’. Battier must be a 9.
by Takebb909 on Jul 7, 2009 1:02 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Well played
Battier, to me, is a 10…
But you’re straying from ‘glue guy’ into ‘energy guy’ a bit with the diving and charges. Are they the same thing?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
If you define Battier as the prototype glue guy, then by definition he is a 10
And energy guy is at least partially a construct of our wishful thinking.
But this is all labelling and is about as useful as deciding what is and is not punk rock.
I want the guy who will help the Clippers win the most basketball games. Of the players available in free agency, not just left over, all of it, that man was/is Marion. And he would seem to be MORE available as time goes on.
Its such a no-brainer for all parties, that there is no way it is going to happen.
Sure, he can help win, if they use an up tempo offense
Otherwise, is he really going to be all that helpful?
by Jax on Jul 7, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Your premise is false
So it is impossible to answer your question.
Please state the factual basis for your opinion that my premise is false.
by Jax on Jul 7, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Why dont you have to first prove your premise?
You were the first to assert. Feel free to prove and I will gladly rebut.
Ah, so you have no factual basis for your premise
As I suspected
by Jax on Jul 7, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions
A predictable cop-out
I will gladly refute your claims, if you would care to make any.
No one is copping out
Except you. Instead of jerking us around, just answer the question. Since you want me to restate your opinion for you, here goes:
You are stating the following opinion:
“I want the guy who will help the Clippers win the most basketball games. Of the players available in free agency, not just left over, all of it, that man was/is Marion”
Once again, please state the factual basis for your opinion.
by Jax on Jul 7, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't lose any sleep over it
John R knows most likely interpreted his “stats” and is embarrassed to admit it. .
peterghost:
I asked the same question once, and the response to it? No. Might as well let them have a bit of fun.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Yes
because he can play defense and rebound. Keys to winning (more so than offense).
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
What position would he play? SF?
If so, he’s not a great shooter and a declining defender. He played primarily PF in Phoenix. Think he’d start over Thornton? Granted he’d get more boards, but do we need that as a primary goal with both Griffin and Kaman?
by Jax on Jul 7, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not sure, but I think Mikey is talking about Battier, not Marion. In which case Battier would only play the 3 of course.
As for Marion, I like the idea with Marion because he can play the 4. He can start at 3 and give way to the “offensive punch” in Thornton. Also, with Griffin starting at 4 as a rookie, he’s going to need to get used to the speed of the game, which means he’s likely to find himself in early foul trouble on occasion. If that happens, you can move Marion to the 4 and bring in Thorton to the 3 (depending on the situation) and not be forced to play Camby big minutes at 4.
by Michael White on Jul 7, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed. Marion 3 and 4 player
and even then, Marion can defend 2,3, and 4.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
My bad. A bit hard to follow replies on this format sometimes….
by Michael White on Jul 7, 2009 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Ah
Battier would be a good fit.
I love Marion and I enjoy the D’Antoni system in which he thrived. I agree that h’es versatile. IMO he’s not really going to stretch the defense at the three and more importantly I just don’t see him thriving in MDSr’s system. He’s a freelancer who needs to run to be really effective.
by Jax on Jul 7, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Mix and match the lineups
The Clippers could not get stops last year. I won’t single out Thornton, but I won’t absolve him. He has a lot of work to do on D. Marion would help there.
Thornton would be used more as the scorer off the bench.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
energy guys
energy v. glue- mike taylor is an energy guy, jason terry, ben gordon, eddie house, mo williams, darryl armstrong, bobby jackson. these are guys who tend to operate without a consciousness, relentless, capitalistic, unwavering. they dont really look at the score board and can fit on any team. they don’t tend to ask for a starters level of minutes. they are your assassins. on your team they can be the locker room hero, after hitting the big shot or the selfish bastard for not making the extra pass to find the wide open shooter, opting to miss it themselves. the funny thing is, with either scenario they could really give a damn and would do the exact same thing the next night. the thing is, they know the law of probability and they like it. these guys are not necessarily 4th, 5th, or 6th best player on the team, in some cases it could very well be your star; …Allen Iverson. and yet other times they could be both the energy guy and the glue guy, like Ron Artest
by Takebb909 on Jul 8, 2009 12:09 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Awesome, and written on a phone!
Did I get that right?
Battier is definitely a ten, I would give Shawn Marion a 7+ but there’s no one on the Clips better than a five… so….
I've always liked Marion's game
However, I don’t know if I want to go past a year. Especially, there aren’t many buyers. I don’t want the clippers to bid against themselves for Marion services.
agreed.
Great idea if we can get him for a year, nothing more.
That lineup would be fast and fun to watch, and make LeBron have to want to come play in LA!
Is Joe Johnson better than Shawn Marion?
According to reports LeBron James told Trevor Ariza he was staying in Cleveland. Wade seems to want to extend in Miami and he’s a 2-guard anyway. I’ll skip Bosh for the same reason. I don’t see any of these guys in a Clips uni next year. You’ve got a chance to sign SM now for a decent price for maybe three years. Is he better than the best of the second-tier free agents next year? Joe Johnson?
Finally, I’m not sure why Portland is not interested. They’re chasing David Lee, Lamar Odom might be on their list, why not Marion?
what about Battier?
I’m down for trying Marion for 1 year, and if that isn’t a perfect fit, we could go after Battier with even more money because he is more of the defensive glue guy who would fit perfectly in between Gordon and Griffin without needing the ball as much as Marion or Joe Johnson for that matter who like to have it. Plus, Battier next year should be cheaper than Marion and Johnson, right?
Yeah...
Houston needs scoring, right now they have 2 glue guys in Battier and Ariza. We should sign and trade Marion for Battier, straight up. Houston would HAVE to accept that.
http://lucasnbablog.blogspot.com/
wow,
I’d love to do that, get Battier in here now for his 1 year so we can re-sign him for more next year without killing our capspace because we’d have his bird rights. You’re brilliant LJ, is that short for Lebron James and you want this to happen so you will come to LA and kill Kobe? :)
Exactly
The Hann is just a disguise, and I want to dominate the bigest cross-town rivalry in the history of professional sports! Give me an offer, I’ll give you a ring.
http://lucasnbablog.blogspot.com/
You get us a ring, you'll be the new king.
But I rather put my money on Steve or Zhiv to run Clippers. (; Go on to Hogwarts now LJ. (; ahahahah
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
1 problem
Battier isn’t a free agent til 2011…
http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/rockets.jsp
by cantthinkofagoodname on Jul 7, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions
This is why it is a sign and trade
not a FA signing.
Sign SM and trade him for Battier.
Houston could have done that,
But apparantly they prefer Battier. Toronto would have had to give serious consideration to a Marion for Battier swap if it had been available. Don’t think Battier’s going anywhere so if we sign Marion, we better be ready to keep him.
FYI
You can’t “sign and trade” a player who isn’t your own free agent. So no, the Clips can’t sign Marion and trade him to another team. Once a team signs a free agent, that player cannot be traded for a set period (I think it’s 90 days but I can’t remember exactly).
I almost poo-poo'ed the fantasy too, but didn't feel like being the bad guy, so thanks
BUT if the three teams were interested, a three way swap works with Houston getting Marion, the Clippers getting Battier and Toronto the exemption.
Though the Clippers are the sucker in that trade. Marion is the better player.
So.. who are the Clippers going to give up to get Battier in a 3 way trade?
Camby?
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
The exemption
Its the same trade as for Marion straight up, but ending up with Battier instead.
Note that I am just saying that this is legal while signing and trading Marion is impossible. I wouldn’t do it and I’m not sure the teams would.
The benefit for Marion would be a longer term deal, if the Rockets were interested. He would seem to be the main benefactor there.
uh...
i could be totally wrong but i was under the idea that if we first traded our exemption to toronto for Marion if they signer him for a one year at the price of our exemption, we could then trade 1 year of Marion for Battier? Personally i like the way our team is right now and don’t want to do more trades at the moment, but I think Battier is a better fit than Marion who this post was about. Guess it all comes down to who would be a better fit for the Clippers, Marion or Battier or Joe Johnson for that matter?
I dont know too much about this contract stuff
but I think we could put together a multiyear deal if the 2nd year was a team option, 3rd year was an eto and 4th year was a player option… oh ya and his salary doesn’t increase, it stays at 7.6 mil
the advantage is that when it becomes apparent that the majority of the top free agents stay with their teams we still have SM, and if joe johnson (the only realistic fa IMO) opts out we’re still in position to make a sizeable offer
by cantthinkofagoodname on Jul 7, 2009 12:03 PM PDT reply actions
the precedent would be Eddy Curry's contract
he had an ETO and a player option… idk if you can include a team option but why not?
by cantthinkofagoodname on Jul 7, 2009 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Character Issues
I’ve been waffling back and forth on the prospects of Marion as a Clipper. The Clippers were one of the worst rebounding teams in the league last year largely in part because our SG and SF positions were atrocious at crashing the boards. Marion obviously would help tremendously in that area because he’s quite possibly the best rebounding small forward in the game. Marion would also provide the defensive flexibility that the Clippers so badly need at small forward.
Steve is right- Marion for one year seems like a no-brainer. It’s highly unlikely that the Clippers would be able to acquire a better personnel fit, who also happens to be on a one year deal AND is more talented than Marion with the trade chip.
Beware though; this is the same Shawn Marion that supposedly sulked his way out of Phoenix, despite the Suns being one of the best teams in the league and deploying one of the most player friendly systems ever created.
For this reason, signing Marion, even for just a year, would be a huge risk. It’s dangerous to assume that the franchise is properly equipped to manage what appears to be an extremely large ego. Marion would definitely be a talent upgrade, but never underestimate the effect a malcontent can have on the general culture of a team, and in direct correlation with that, wins and losses.
by D.J. Foster on Jul 7, 2009 2:04 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
MDsr goes after Marion
if Novak gets a huge contract somewhere else?
Roger Sterling: I bet there were people in the Bible walking around, complaining about "kids today."
Don Draper: Kids today, they have no one to look up to. Cuz they're looking up to us.
Timing
Novak won’t land for awhile in all likelihood. The S&T option will be off the table by the time Novak has an offer.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
Another excellent post in an awesome thread...
I do see one other flaw in the ointment (sic). Why, at 31, would Marion even consider a short deal? If I’m him, I’m getting the longest deal I can, even if it’s only for the exception. It’s the total dollar number that’s important, not the length.
A few reasons. As Steve said, he gets a chance to get some good money this year, and then hope to get paid more next year when the market would be more liquid and people might realize that all these star free agents don’t want to leave where they are.
And 2, I’ll call it the swamigusto theory. Even if he sucks, people will just blame the Clippers and his value won’t decrease ;).
by Michael White on Jul 7, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, I'm happy to accept the honor...
…but it was really Mikey P’s idea. I just glommed on.
As far as SM goes… next year he’ll be 32. His career is based on his extraordinary athletic ability… he kinda defines the phrase, “highflyer”. I think his value could be down drastically next year. If I’m Mr. Marion, I really really want a long deal this year. And I guess that’s despite the aforementioned “Clipper-pejorative” theory.
When we define "highflyer"
I think the top 3 players that come to mind would be Vince Carter, Michael Jordan, and Dominque Wilkens. Anybody else have a different top 3? (Of course I could be forgetting somebody… but I think Air Carter HAS to be somewhere in the 3.)
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
But you'd put Josh Smith or Dr J over MJ or Nique?
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
I'm with you
Marion’s very talented, and signing him doesn’t seem like the worst idea I’ve ever heard. But the character issues you brought up are a real concern, and the fact that few teams are showing any interest in him is a red flag. Even Dallas’s interest is predicated on trading him for little useful talent and only counting on him as a reserve.
Signing Marion could easily block the Clippers from acquiring someone later who is a better fit into their long range plans. I’d prefer the Clippers save the trade exception until more is known about this team. The Clips have a lot of questions to answer, and we may find later that a gluey SF was far from the greatest need. In particular, no one really knows what to expect from Baron, and PG depth could quickly become an urgent priority.
I’m optimistic that Thornton will fulfill the potential most of us claimed to see in him after his rookie season. Injuries to other players rushed him into a role he wasn’t ready for last season, but I thought he showed signs of improvement, and I’m looking forward to seeing how far he’s come. A low budget defensive minded swingman should adequate fill the role of Thornton’s backup.
by ClipCat on Jul 7, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bonzi Wells as the case against the player seeking a better deal tomorrow?
Ron Artest too, to a lesser extend?
1 year with Clips = bad for Marion
I can’t imagine any NBA veteran (without serious baggage) signing a one-year UNLESS it was to try and win a championship.
We can always wish, but the reality of this actually happening is very slim.
I have to semi agree.
If Marion doesnt post a 20/10 game (or somewhere between those lines), his value would probably drop. That is unless Marion can lead the Clippers to a playoffs, then the media will acknowledge how well Marion did, and BOOM, Marion is famous again.
But the likelyhood of Marion doing well with Dunleavy seems pretty slim right now seeing as how there isn’t a Steve Nash on our team and Dunleavy will probably always remain Dunleavy.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Sigh
Well if we cant move beyond the false conventional wisdom that he played poorly in Miami and Toronto, that’s the end of the discussion.
Sorry John R
isn’t going to happen. Ever since Marion isn’t with Nash anymore, its hard to overvalue Marion has we once did back when he was in Phoenix. Im starting to think that we could possibly be overvalueing still because of what he did in Phoenix, but Ill let that go. a 7-8 million deal should be worth it for this guy ( Just not that 16+ million deals he had back in Phoenix.)
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
You know.. back when I was playing nba live...
it was nearly impossible to match the salarlies of Marion without trading away Maggette or Brand? Even then, Marion was somewhat impossible to acquire. It was always Amare that was easier…
Btw, the Amare deal isn’t official yet! Doesn’t anybody else want Amare instead of Kaman?
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Why doesn't everything that applies to Marion potentially apply to Amare?
You haven’t ACTUALLY seen his artificially inflated numbers go down yet?
And Marion still have two good eyes.
Note: both of their numbers were/are artificially inflated by pace, not performance.
How do you value him?
Is he not an above average forward?
No need to apologize to me. Its good for the Clippers if everyone sees him as overvalued. Decreases him value. It isn’t actually true though.
Why isn't it true?
His good numbers were generated in an uptempo system where he primarily played PF. And he appears to have lost a step now if the Miami numbers are any indication. Why isn’t he overvalued?
by Jax on Jul 7, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
John R - care to support your point?
Zhiv says that you always support your points
by Jax on Jul 7, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Good point.
Amare hasn’t played with anybody else besides Steve Nash since then so its hard to see what Amare would do without Steve also. But I would assume the same or slightly off?
I like Amare because of his lowpost game and his atheleticism. Marion has that, but not as developed as Amare (Low post wise.) Marion is extremely atheletic for his position.
Is Marion an above average forward? His stats didn’t show it. Clearly, you cant tell me that 13 points and 8 rebounds is an above average stat for a sf/ pf player. But I will give Marion an above average badge because of what he accomplished in Phoenix.
I just think that Marion is going to need to find the right style of play in order to become the old back in Phoenix. I dont know if Dunleavy is forreals in playing uptempo, and if he was, is he even going to be successful at it?
As for Amare or Marion, I might take Amare because he’s good at what he does. I would think that even without Nash, Amare should be able to do well. But of course, I could be wrong.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Heh kinda tells you that you can't strictly rely on stats
to build an argument no?
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
I don't know
I would suggest the stats you have chosen are the wrong ones. Not that stats don’t work.
Right - John R always chooses the right stats
And only he can base basketball arguments solely on stats. You see?
by Jax on Jul 7, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Not at all
But don’t be surprised if I turn stats of one’s own choosing back around if they are poorly chosen.
Please feel free to provide the factual bases
for your opinions as specifically requested in two posts in this thread.
by Jax on Jul 7, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions
John R
im starting to think I need you define elite, above average, average, below average, and below Michael Olowankandi just so I have a clear view of what exactly are YOUR terms of “above average and such.”
Only saying that because you believed that Eric Gordon was below average, which made me go “wow.” At the most part I would have thought you would list him maybe at average?
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
All you need to know is
WIN is the best because Berri is the only person in the world who predicted that Boston would win it all last year.
No one but Berri thought they’d win. No one.
by Jax on Jul 7, 2009 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions
True.
winning is the best stats, but isn’t that how the wp48 is generated? So when a player like Gordon plays for a bad team, gets a bad stats rating ( I can’t read the wp48 so mind my language), don’t guys like John R nail you by saying that Gordon isn’t good because he was one of the worse players in the league strictly because of his win%?
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
or even if Eric Gordon is a bad example,
maybe Kevin Durant is a better one?
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
I'm being facetious
Of course you’re right. Those kinds of stats are very limited as applied to basketball
by Jax on Jul 7, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions
haha sorry to talk about you in here John R
I really don’t want to get inbetween a John R, Jax showdown.
Anyways, have fun Jax! Im off to Rainforest Cafe as I was just thinking about their Ribs in the “Blake Griffin a veggie??” post.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
What is the basis of your opinion that Marion played relatively poorly
in Miami and Toronto, as compared to Phoenix?
by Jax on Jul 7, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Is this question for me?
That is not my opinion.
Im actually getting lost of whos replying to who
since the line continues to break off into a new conversation…
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
JackduhSun is stuck in the middle with you
Wait now so am I…
Clippers Basketball.... It's Masochistic!
wrong place in time
Clipochistic…
I think that belongs back in the Turk post with Krapper11.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
too many replies in the hedo thread
may have ripped an unrepairable hole in the spacetime continuum.
Clippers Basketball.... It's Masochistic!
You're right - I misstated your opinion
Your opinion is that Marion did not play relatively poorly in Miami and Toronto, which is the conventional wisdom. Your opinion is that the conventional wisdom is wrong.
What is the factual basis for your opinion please.
by Jax on Jul 7, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't get me wrong
I think Marion would seriously consider any multi-year offer we make, but not a one-year…
2008-09
Shawn Marion: 12.9 PPG / 8.5 RPG / 2.0 APG / 1.0 BPG
I voted to sign him for one year, but would it really be so bad to sign him to a 3 year deal?
Over half of the NBA has cap space next summer.. I just don’t see who we are going to get.. Blake is going to be our star, so we don’t need another one.. Might as well build a good team around him.
'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!
Ahem. I think you meant to say Gordon is going to be our star
I agree with you though. Signing him to 3 years probably woudn’t be such a bad idea. I think plenty of those big time free agents are going to stay in the cities that drafted them. Just a hunch though.
by Michael White on Jul 7, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL
Sorry… They’re BOTH going to be our stars!
'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!
by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Jul 7, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmmmmm.
I’d take him for a year, just because I have a hard time seeing it hurt… he’ll probably be taking minutes away from RD, Marty which can only be a positive. Only potential problem is that he’ll be pushing Thornton to the bench as a 6th man… which could also be a good thing. I think Al could really learn a lot from Marion in terms of rebounding and overall Bball IQ. Not that Marion is a genius, but he tends to be in the right spots.
I REALLY don’t want to see us sign ANYONE to a multi year deal at this point unless it’s a no brainer. I know that our chances are slim of landing, DWade, King James, etc next year, but I want to stay in the running. Worse thing that happens is we have a big bag of money to throw at some other good/great pieces.
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
Recent news from LBJ to Ariza,
LBJ is staying in Cleveland.
Anyways, how much is Thornton going to learn from Marion within that 1 year time span. Doesn’t seem like much.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Really?
what are you implying…? That players only can learn from each other by playing more than a year together? I don’t see why that makes sense.
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
Nah.
Just saying that Thorntons going to be a sixman. I thought that the way to become better is to play. So if Thornton drops from 30+ mins a game to 20, I think that it could postpone his developement a bit more than make it better.
I do agree that Marion becoming a Clipper is a good thing though.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
the 'no-brainer'
i’m reading that most people believe our future is set, with having blake and eric. the ‘shawn marion’ and the ‘glue-guy’ theories talked about here are geared towards building the best possible support for those two (blake & eric). but you always leave room for the ‘no brainers’, always and lebron is the epitomi of that term ‘on brainer’, …yes, EVEN with us having the Commissioner and the Beast already
by Takebb909 on Jul 7, 2009 5:36 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I can see your point...
But I just think there are more positives than negatives. Especially since right now our back up 3s include a bunch of knuckle heads and old farts. It’s our obvious weakpoint… besides the Head Coach position.
Oh me, oh my!!!! The Red Baron has come home!!
It was a really good thread for a while...
Then came the (inevitable?) dissembling. Maybe it’s bad you can post from your Blackberry.
If they could get the one-year deal done...
It would be great. Marion fills the one major hole on this Clipper squad, which is small forward. Thornton seems like he would make a great bench player, with his scoring ability. Also, coming off of the bench would hide some of his other deficiencies. Marion can do a number of things well and would help facilitate an offense with guys like Baron Davis, Eric Gordon and Blake Griffin.
That said, I don’t want the Clippers to get tied up into a long term commitment. Marion is a good player, but I fear that he may become another disappointment if the Clippers sign him to a multi-year deal. A one year deal would be great because it gives him the motivation to play for a number of suitors in the 2010 class. And hey, if things do work out, then the Clippers might be in a position to use some of their cap space on him seeing as it’s unlikely that any of the big names will sign with the Clips. I’m not well schooled on the financial aspect of basketball, but I’m all for a one year deal.
"If a Clippers fan is reading a newspaper in his living room and the ceiling falls on him, he'll just shrug and move to another room." -Bill Simmons
eric pincus
Pincus said once again the Clippers have no interest.
hopefully clips are just playing poker
waiting for him to make it into free agency.
they could seemingly do some dumping to accommodate a marion fa signing.
also, something or other has changed about the tax threshold, which will result in more teams dumping players, so maybe a great deal is still out there. maybe someone other than marion for that trade exception thnger.
seems to be opportunity in the air/ blood in the water.
Clippers Basketball.... It's Masochistic!
tax threshold dropped a little over a mil
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4312721
Clippers Basketball.... It's Masochistic!
by Clipochistic on Jul 7, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Although I’m starting to think no matter how much talent we assemble, MDSr.‘s going to run the team like a college team – set plays, micromanaging, and a somewhat patronizing attitude towards the players: Marion > 3 Mardy Collins’s – I’m not sure Thornton is a type of player who can “learn” much more. His style of play has been pretty consistent from college to the pros – he’s a scorer and an energizer, his assist totals will never be special and only after being beaten enough times will he play more consistent defense.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Jul 8, 2009 5:53 PM PDT reply actions
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