Rasual Butler Traded to the Clippers
Thanks for getting the Rasual Butler trade news up Citizen Zhiv. Also thanks to Citizens 69Knicks and meercatjohn for getting FanPosts up. Remember to check to see if someone already has posted of course, It's not a big deal, but if we only post it once, then everyone knows where to put comments. But better safe than sorry - I'd much rather have it twice than not at all.
While we're on the logisticial subject, Citizen Zhiv did the right thing by posting it to the front page - even if he had seen the FanShot by 69Knicks (a hat tip would have been appropriate of course). We want it on the front page for a few reasons - one of course is that it gets much more visibility. Front page stories also gets indexed by Google for searches.
As we continuing rolling the credits here, how about a shout out to Citizen hans007? In a FanPost three weeks ago, he floated the idea of using the trade exception to agree either Antonio Daniels or Rasual Butler from the Hornets. Here's the comment I left on that FanPost at the time:
So let's not dislocated any shoulders patting ourselves on the back, but I do like it when the level of discussion here at Clips Nation is validated like this. Well played, sirs (and a couple madames). The trade happened sooner rather than later, but it was smart then and it's smart now.You’re absolutely on the right track. Cash strapped teams at or near the luxury tax are the perfect bidders for the exception. Daniels would have made all the sense in the world before the Telfair trade. Less now. Butler is a pretty good fit now.
The simple fact is that there may be (a) a clearer picture of needs and (b) other desperate teams out there closer to the trading deadline. So I think a trade like this is a distinct possibility – but I think it will happen later rather than sooner.
Last historical reference - I haven't been through the ClipperBlog archives looking to find it yet (I will soon), but I seem to recall that Kevin had Butler as a target acquisition way back in the 2006 off-season. I think he's still on vacation, but he has already posted on this trade, probably from a beach somewhere. He likes Butler.
On to the trade: it's really, really smart. Just a solid all around move. We've been discussing the entire off-season that the Clippers' biggest need was someone capable of playing the two and the three. Is Rasual Butler a consummate glue guy? No - but he's a solid player (who happens to have killed the Clippers on several occasions, a pattern to this summer's moves). He's not a lock down defender - but he's very solid. When the Hornets play the Lakers, it's Butler who draws the assignment against Kobe, and he works hard and makes his man earn his points. Bear in mind that with Eric Gordon undersized at the two, the Kobes of the NBA were going to be the toughest assignments for EJ. Of course, the Lakers will have Artest at the three, so there's really no bargains in that lineup, but in a strange way, I could see Butler on Kobe and EJ (with his strength) on Ron-Ron. At any rate, Butler is a guy who defends either wing position relatively well and shoots with range. Is he the perfect acquistion? Well, considering what the team gave up, and considering that Butler is in the final year of his contract, it's pretty hard to imagine a much better one. He's not Shane Battier, but LA wasn't going to get Battier for nothing.
You may be wondering if Butler truly was acquired for nothing. Well, the trade was Butler AND cash for a conditional 2nd round pick in 2016. We've become pretty famililar with these conditional second round picks around here of course - Marcus Camby, Hassan Adams, Cheikh Samb and Alex Acker all involved them, if I recall correctly. The bottom line is that the conditions are likely such that the Clippers will never give up a thing - top 55 protected, or some such. So if the Clippers actually lose any of these picks, it means they finished the season with one of the best records in the NBA - so it's a good problem to have. There's nothing in the release that says what the conditions are, but the fact that the Hornets actually had to pay out cash to get the deal done tells you all you have to know. The Clippers gave up nothing - the Hornets are over the cap and wanted Butler's $3.9M salary off their books. It saves them close to $8M when you include the dollar for dollar tax, so they were willing to throw a little cash Sterling's way, and will get nothing in return.
And since I love the esoterica of this stuff, let's look at why the conditional pick is 2016. Well, even though all these conditional Clipper picks are like never going to be lost, you still can't trade them twice. (That actually sounds like the plot of a Broadway musical.) So they all just keep moving further and further into the future. If the Clippers continue to be active in these types of moves, using the rest of their trade exception to help other teams clean up their books, we might expect to see conditional picks in 2017 and 2018 being dealt before the deadline. I don't know if there's any restriction on the time horizon for draft pick trades - if there is, the Clippers will likely be testing it soon.
Butler's $3.9+M salary comes out of the Clippers $7.3M trade exception from the Zach Randolph for Quentin Richardson deal. So as someone pointed out in the comments of the first thread, in a very real sense you can now add Rasual Butler to the list of assets the Clippers have now acquired for Tim Thomas and Cat Mobley - Mardy Collins, Sebastian Telfair, Craig Smith, Mark Madsen, Butler - and they still have about $3.4M to use from the exception. And all of those guys except Telfair can be off the books before next season's free agency market. Not too mention that their expiring deals could be used along with those of Marcus Camby and Ricky Davis to match any salary in the league. It's hard to imagine, but the Clipper's financial flexibility seems to get better with each move they make. Call MDsr butter because he's on a roll.
That additional $3.4M exception is ideal for another trade exactly like this one - a decent player from a team in luxury tax land. And by the way, with the salary cap going down, there are a lot of those. Maybe the Lakers will settle on either Shannon Brown or Jordan Farmar as Fisher's backup before February and want to rid themselves of the odd man out's guaranteed salary (and tax bill). Or maybe it's JJ Redick in Orlando. Or even the carcass of Michael Finley and cash and the rights to Tiago Splitter from the Spurs. The bottom line is, it remains a very valuable bargaining chip.
And as was pointed out in the comments, this doesn't really impact the Clippers pursuit of Ramon Sessions. It pretty much takes the Sign and Trade scenario off the table, but as we've stated many times, that was always a red herring. The Clippers have the full mid level exception to offer Sessions, and Sessions cannot sign for more than the MLE as an 'Arenas Rule' free agent. Since neither Sessions nor the Clippers had much incentive (really none) to participate in an S&T, it was never a realistic option. Happily, that uninformed talk can stop now.
Last thought for now: is Rasual Butler a viable option as the starting three freeing Al Thornton to move to the bench scorer role? In a word, yes. This is a guy who has started 183 games in his career, and started 74 games for a 49 win team last season. While it's true that the wings were the weak link on that Hornets team last season, you can't take away the fact that he played 2600 minutes (third most) on a playoff team. It remains to be seen how such a move might be handled by Thornton - I would argue that it's not a demotion so much as a better utilization of his skill set. It makes little sense for a high volume scorer of Thornton's ability to be the fourth or fifth option (behind Gordon, Baron, Griffin and Kaman) among the starters. Butler, spreading the floor with his three point range, is a better fit there, not to mention a better defender against most starting NBA threes. But Thornton could be a terror against most second units, and could carry the scoring load as the main option when the reserves enter the game. Obviously that was the idea behind the Maggette/Ross experiment a few years back, but there are at least three key differences as Citizen Zhiv has already pointed out: Butler is better than Ross, Thornton is not (yet) the scorer Maggette was, and that Clippers team was in desperate need of more scoring. We haven't seen this team on the floor yet, so the thinking here could be completely wrong, but on paper I like the idea of Thornton as the Microwave - the guy who comes in and heats up in a hurry.
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Wow!!! keep 'em coming!!!
Now if this team can’t win 40 games… there’s is definitely something wrong!!!
by clippersnomatterwhat on Aug 12, 2009 11:28 AM PDT reply actions
It's the aggregate
The 40 win thing, that’s Blake Griffin. And BDavis, Kaman, Camby, Gordon, Thornton, etc. Butler fills a key missing piece, but it’s not the main thing. Every little bit helps, and extra depth and solid guys on the roster should put the expectations in that range.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 12, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Not sure they get 30
Not that Butler doesn’t help and sure it is the aggregate… But can you really count on B.Davis, Kaman and Camby? And I’m not saying that the Randolph move wasn’t a good thing but he was the only guy that could demand a double team. I’m still pretty concerned about 30 games. You?
by ClipperJake on Aug 12, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Not really
Not until something goes wrong.
At this point I’m going with the “BDavis 2nd year theory.” The Clips have a nice collection of talent. A lot of water went under the bridge last year.
A player like Griffin would add significantly to a team’s win total even if everything else was exactly the same. And there’s also a value to healthy first-team players playing with each other, that we haven’t seen much of.
In short, the Clips have a whole bunch of potential upgrades over last year’s 19 win season, not just adding Griffin.
30 is a low expectation, based on injuries, discord, and who knows what else. Last year was just a fairly epic catastrophe. 40 is reasonable, I think. It would be nice to get there.
And adding a player like Butler, spending the money when a playoff team unloads a rotation player/starter because of tax issues, sends the right message.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 12, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Anything less than 40 games would be a failed season.
Winning 40+ games but not getting a playoff berth would be a partial fail for me because it would mean the race for the last spot was really, really close.
Possibilities for improvement
Always good to have some healthy skepticism around here. But it’s also worthwhile to make a strong effort to figure out a clear accounting of reasons why the Clips should improve on a dismal season. Some optimism, if you will.
1. Avoiding early injuries. We’ve said it many times. The beginning of last year’s snowball was in training camp and preseason, when Camby, a key addition meant to replace FElton, was unavailable throughout. Then Baron and Tim Thomas went down. If the Clips can just stay healthy until the actual season begins, that will be a major improvement.
2. Returning players. Last year’s early injuries were compounded by massive roster turnover, meaning that guys who had never played together still didn’t have a chance to play together until the team was already losing. It may seem like there are a lot of new guys with Griffin, Telfair, Smith and Butler, but the returnees are impressive: BD, Gordon, Camby, Kaman, Thornton, DJordan, Collins, possibly Novak and Jones (skipping Ricky Davis). BD and CoachMDSr have apparently reached common ground. Kaman still needs time playing with everybody, but he should be back and ready to go.
3. Totals, not averages. For 09-10 we can project, both realistically and optimistically, solid season totals for all of these players. One of the disasters of 08-09 was that even if the averages were good (Gordon, Zbo), they were based on limited games and minutes. 09-10 Gordon is going to be much better than 08-09 Gordon because he will be the day one starter and a focal point of the offense. Even if defenses know he’s coming and he has a sophomore slump of sorts, his minutes, opportunities, and totals should be significantly higher than last year. And this applies to Griffin vs. Zbo as well. Trading Zbo makes Griffin the day one starter. That is huge. Yes, Griffin would have to have a monster rookie season to match Zbo’s averages (keeping defense out of it), but Zbo’s totals in 39 games1300 mins. on a 19-win team are easily within reach of Griffin: he should smash them, and he shouldn’t have much trouble at all matching the production of the entire PF position for the season.
4. A balanced attack. With even decent health, as opposed to catastrophic injuries, the Clips should have more legitimate weapons out on the floor at any given time, as well as a deeper bench. My belief is that Al Thornton, for one, will be a major beneficiary of this difference. How will AT respond when he’s playing with other guys who can score? He had a certain number of games with Zbo and Gordon, but his role as a guy who needed to get his shots and score was pretty clear. Can he adapt (a major team improvement), or will he be back in that get-any-shot mode but come off the bench? Either way, the Clips are more effective. Baron Davis should benefit from the same factor, which is even more important since the ball will be in his hands so much, and a marginal shot selection and fg% improvement by him will be a major improvement for the team. He knows who Eric Gordon is and what he can do, and a player like Griffin should be a much better fit with BD than Zbo.
5. Defense.
Stuff like that—I could go on, obviously.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 13, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I blame that trip to Russia in 2006
for everything that has happened, including the injuries and roster turnover.
(And since the trip to Russia happened becuase of Korolev, I blame him and the person that decided to draft him. I even blame his parents for conceiving him).
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
I'd take the over on 30
You may not be able to count on B.D. or Kaman, but one thing you can count on is that there’s no way in hell that they’ll be any worse than last year. Odds are they’ll be significantly better. Camby should be about the same, which is good.
We finally have a legit back up Point Guard, and competition for Al Thornton for starting Small Forward, and/or a guy to back up the shooting guard spot. With DeAndre seemingly coming along, and the acquisition of Smith and obviously Blake Griffin, the bigs are looking like more of a strength than ever.
We’re pretty much better at every position now, anything less than doubling last years win total will be a disappointment. Barrowing a major injury, which is always a possibility, I don’t see it happening with this roster.
I know I'll get mocked for this but what the hell
We’re pretty much better at every position now
That’s not true. PG is the same player. SG is the same player. Is Butler an upgrade over AT? Not sure, but yes this move helps depth. C is basically the same player.
It is silly to assume that Griffin will be an upgrade over Randolph. He is a rookie, he will struggle, he will get into foul trouble. Somebody made a great post once saying that in order for Griffin to be as productive as Randolph, he would need to have a monster rookie year (compared to other rookies.) It seems optimistic to just check the box and say that Griffin is an upgrade (as of right now.)
So basically the team has more depth. That’s great. But the starter’s are basically the same. An improvement over last year will come if Kaman and Baron play up to their potential or Blake Griffin turns out to be Tim Duncan.
by Michael White on Aug 13, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I think he was including depth in that statement
i.e. we are better at PG because now we have Telfair as a backup…
we are better at both SG and SF because of Butler
I do agree that we are NOT better at PF yet….yet….(the guy hasn’t even played 1 NBA game yet)….
by Newton Pham on Aug 13, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Only looking at the box score
This isn’t fantasy basketball. There’s more to the game than stats.
SG is the same player. Yea…he was a 19 year old rookie last season. You think it’s within the realm of possibility that a 19 year old rookie might possibly improve?
Even with Baron, it’s a safe bet to say that with a full year in the system under his belt, will improve.
Is Butler an upgrade over Thornton? Maybe. But how is that relevant? Similar to Gordon, you don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that a 3rd year player will improve?
As for Griffin and Randolph, this is the biggest flaw in your reasoning. Obviously anyone can look at Randolph’s stat stuffing and think “wow, he’s a good player.” Yet there’s a reason that a 20/10 guy like him has been traded for virtually nothing three times. People don’t seem to be able to grasp the negative intangible impact he has on the team as a whole. He’s a black hole who dominates the ball, stalls the offense and takes poor shots. Nobody wants to play with a guy like that and it impacts each of his teammates on the court.
Oh and did you forget that there are two ends of the court? Z-Bo plays the worst defense in the league. It’s not even close. Griffin will instantly be a defensive upgrade over Z-Bo just by the mere fact that he’ll actually try.
It never ceases to amaze me how Z-Bo fools fans and GMs with his stat stuffing. All anyone has to do is actually watch him on the court for an extend period to realize that he gives on D as much as he gets, and his ball-hogging, three point shot jacking is irritating to his teammates.
Forgive me madglove (:
but Blake is going to have to be very effective on offense to catch up to Zbo. I always thought that ZBO wasn’t really a “black Hole” in terms of offense because it wasn’t like Zbo was taking many horrible attempts last season. I saw plenty of offense from him last season. I think that interms of offense, we downgraded temporarily from ZBo to Blake; but on the flipside, we upgraded in terms of defense.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
He's right particularly in MDSr's iso offense
BG could be better but we do not know.
Defensively your’re right, no question.
Again
I’m talking about the overall effect of the players on the team as a whole. You guys keep talking as if this is a one-on-one game.
Yes, Z-Bo put up better OFFENSIVE numbers than Griffin will as a rookie.
But Griffin’s play won’t irritate his teammates (like that ridiculous last second air-ball three pointer that Z-Bo took while everyone looked at him in dismay). They’ll actually like playing with him. If last season taught us anything, chemistry is very important in this league. So AS A WHOLE, having Griffin out there instead of Z-Bo’s cancerous play will improve the TEAM.
And again, the defense isn’t even close. Z-Bo doesn’t even try to pretend out there.
Actually, I was just stating the offensive abilities.
I wasn’t talking in terms of overall abilities or even if it was an upgrade or not. If you read the comment a bit more carefully , it just says that Zach was a good scorer. Didn’t really mention an upgrade or an downgrade overall at the PF position. I agree a bit though, Zbo is a bit insufficient on defense. And a bit might be an understatement. But prior to last season, its a bit hard to name anybody else as efficient as Zbo last season in terms of scoring. Eric Gordon is arguable, but even then, i don’t think it was possible to always put the ball in EG’s hands every single play and expect him to do something. We have to face it, Zbo was a horse on offense last season when it seemed like no basket was ever going in.
Now prior to last season, its easy to say everybody will improve. And then its also easy to say that everybody will stay the same. Then theres the others who says age will determine how the players play the game.
Baron easily didn’t do as well last season. It could be in part of anything. Dunleavy as coach, slow pace offense, age, injury, fat, who knows right? If Dunleavy decides to play the same style as last season, I’m going to have to say that Zbo off the bench is well needed.
Anyways just a quick 2cents.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
=) Again,
I don’t totally disagree, but these guys quit before Z-Bo even got here…. And man are you right about that 3, that’s what I mean by not the sharpest knife in the drawer, dumb ass move… But honestly, Baron doesn’t play D either and shoots 37% from the field and he’s the frickin poing guard. At least randolph hit the boards…. Again I hate to be the Randolph apologist, I’m just saying last year for this team I think he was a net positive and Baron really should be held to the same standard.
Kaman shouldn’t escape either…Talk about a guy with numbers better than his play.
Agree on Baron
I totally think Baron deserves a ton of blame. I’ve said as much myself. Clearly I’m a big Baron fan, but I can be unbiased; Baron was terrible last year. Just terrible. He was embarrassingly bad. But he’s still on the team. The question is whether this team will be better w/o Z-Bo. And my point is that he will. Saying that Baron was just as bad last year doesn’t really contradict my point right?
Plus, the difference is that Z-Bo has been like this his whole career. That’s why Portland couldn’t wait to get rid of him when they were starting over with Roy as their franchise player. That’s why Roy was so ticked at Z-Bo and got in a shouting match with him in the middle of a game. The guy is a stat stuffer who plays zero D and gives as much as he gets.
Baron on the other hand has been awesome at different points in his career. So it’s reasonable to expect that he COULD possibly be better this season than last season. Z-Bo? Nothing’s different. That’s who he’s always been. Baron last year was the worst he’s ever been.
Anyway, I’m not defending Baron, just saying it’s reasonable to think he’ll be better. There isn’t any reason to think that about Z-Bo. Plus, people aren’t even saying Z-Bo would be better….they’re acting like he was actually good.
mg
i will say this. it does say something worth noting if your former teammates state how they will miss you when they didn’t have to say a word. they appreciated something about him. thats just coming from the inside and not from all of us speculating.
by Takebb909 on Aug 13, 2009 7:04 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm with you...
Actually I’m a pretty big Baron my fan myself but I’ve put up with his crap for a long time… When it’s going right he’s awesome, it just doesn’t seem to go right enough. Here’s to hoping its better this year!
I also agree it doesn’t contradict the Z-Bo statements…All I’m saying about Z-Bo, is last years some of the best basketball the team played was with him on the floor. Who could have imagined the Clippers going into Portland and winning. Even the Lakers have trouble with that one.
But yeah, Z-Bo will never be a key guy on a winning team just bring a little life to really bad teams.
Z-Bo plays the worst defense in the league. It’s not even close.
What horseshit. Do you think if you make bombastic claims like that it helps your point? Honestly I shouldn’t have even bother respondiing to you. You are an arrogant know-it-all who consistently makes hostile posts like this.
But thanks for telling me this is real and not fantasy basketball. Without you around to making such platitudes we would all be complete morons who never watch basketball.
by Michael White on Aug 13, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Well since you apparently think Z-Bo can play D
Then yes, you clearly need my help with basketball.
The other kind of help you may need I cannot provide for you.
i do not think honestly it was “the worst” in the league.
have you seen amare stoudamire play D? for a staring caliber player zach at least sort of tried he just is fat and slow.
amare doesnt even try. at all. id have to say if al harrington is playing “pf” for whatever team he’s on he’s more or less terrible also. i think zach gets a bad rap for his D. he’s really no worse than an amare, dirk , etc…
Everybody is a retard and Madglove is a genius Exhibit A
This isn’t fantasy basketball. There’s more to the game than stats.
People don’t seem to be able to grasp the negative intangible impact he has on the team as a whole.
Oh and did you forget that there are two ends of the court?
It never ceases to amaze me how Z-Bo fools fans and GMs with his stat stuffing
Nonstop condescension
by Michael White on Aug 13, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Mwhite06 said before something along the lines of…calling ZBO a cancer is bordering on lazy posting at this point….and I couldn’t agree more. Where does the “people don’t like to play with ZBO” take come from? Is there a group of reporters from inside the Clippers locker room pushing this info out? I’ve never onve heard anyone credible say this, yet people just seem to assume this as a fact. Personally I don’t see it. If i had played last season I would had a much bigger problem with Baron Davis’ incessant chucking. But I guess another year in the system will make that all better…
Its fine to make a point about zbo’s defense (and even to assume taht Griffins will be better, i certainly hope it is), but calling it the worst in the league is laughable, and quite frankly just makes you sound silly.
“All anyone has to do is actually watch him on the court for an extend period to realize that he gives on D as much as he gets, and his ball-hogging, three point shot jacking is irritating to his teammates.” …Again, this sentence could just as easily describe Baron Davis.
The Clippers will be improved this season based on experience and a deeper bench, not based on the assumed changes to the starting 5.
mwhite06
I’ve always been a fan of your posts, but there’s no reason to blow your top on here. Not to say it’s not entertaining. Anyway, we could always use pessimism on the board to counter balance all the over optimists.
Same starters, I get. My main point was that BD & Kaman can’t possibly be worse than last year. Telfair can do a better job than BD did last year for starters, and he’s the back up. EJ didn’t start off the season playing last year, and our depth is vastly improved to the point where AT, our least efficient player, finally has his starter status in jeopardy. Lot of things to like.
After reading some of the subsequent posts regarding depth, I do understand your point. I wasn’t intending to attack you and I apologize if it came off as though I did. I don’t generally consider myself a pessimist (particularly last season) though I do try to temper expectations when it comes to Blake Griffin for the HOF talk. Also, I’m quite bearish on BD. Kaman didn’t do anything last year because he was hurt. Baron did nothing and he was healthy. So we’ll see on that one.
On the whole though, I’m not pessimistic regarding the upcoming season, and again I do apologize if my initial response came off as an attack.
by Michael White on Aug 13, 2009 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
All Good
The conventional wisdom is that we wont be good for a couple of years, we’ll have to see if we can beat the expectations this year. Oddly enough, we’re becoming a trendy pick for a lot of analysts.
Not all bad...
So much of what you say about Z-Bo is a true, doesn’t share the ball, doesn’t play D, and not the sharpest nife in the drawer but I don’t think you’d deny that the team was better after the trade and when he was in the line-up.
He was the only guy on the team that could demand a double team on O. Which Gordon and Novak benefitted from…Baron would have too if he could shoot them as well as he thinks he can. Plus Z-Bo will grab some boards for you. Hard to believe but minus the Z-Bo trade the team and record would have been worse last year, even though he missed like 30 games as a clip.
The other thing is part of the reason he gets dealt is he makes $16 million, dumb Portland contract for sure….Don’t get me wrong, I think trading him to Memphis was the right thing this team would have gotten waxed even more without him last year.
I'm hoping our offense will be better this year...
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Just surprised I beat Mikey
Hollinger messed him up.
LOL
I wasn’t paying attention to anything today. News has been sooooo slow. Talk about the dog days.
I posted Hollinger just to get something up. Content sorely needed (Steve must have a paper).
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Quite the opposite
I’m between semesters. I have NOTHING. But I also have had very little to say about the Clippers until this trade. There’s only so many ways I can say "a S&T for Sessions makes no sense’. I know I should be writing about something, but I keep thinking this sessions thing will get resolved and then we’ll know where to go with the conversation.
Thank FSM for Rasual Butler.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Aug 12, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Kinda funny
Yeah, it was a significant lull. I was trying to figure out something to talk about too. But I have to say that I keep thinking twice about semi-excitement about the deal for Butler, who, for me, has been a fairly anonymous player that I’ve never noticed before. The idea of “OMG—the Clippers just got Rasual Butler from the Hornets! Can you believe it! They got their backup SG-SF, he might even start in front of Thornton, he made 140 3s last year!” is pretty funny.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 12, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions
That being said
You knew we were in trouble when the Messiah photo was up there for so long.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 12, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions
That photo
Got linked by TrueHoop. And spawned a whole TMNT discussion, so there’s that.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Aug 12, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Took awhile
But I figured out what TMNT is.
Had a couple of good WODs too. So busy with all of the fan-tastic Rasual excitement that I haven’t checked today’s yet… hoping that it’s Butler-related.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 12, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions
luminary
WOD is still obsessed with the Messiah photo, it seems.
Not the most challenging WOD. Hebetude is still far and away the most obscure. Our hebetude before this Butler trade was becoming oppressive. It seems like you would always use lassitude, which means the same thing. And it can’t be just me, hebe that I am, who doesn’t think it works much better as an abbreviation for jewish attitude. That’s how I’m going to use it, I’m sure. Very carefully, of couse.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 12, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
In other Jewish related news...
I took Mrs. P to see “Fiddler on the Roof” in Orange County last night. Topol’s farewell tour (supposedly). It was really amazing to see him live. He is impressive for 73. We had great seats. Orchestra, Row J.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
He kicked ass in For Your Eyes Only…
by Gordon for President on Aug 12, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Pantages Season
When they called trying to sell me on a package that include Topol in Fiddler, I thought “Does Tevye have five GREAT GRAND DAUGHTERS!” I’m sure he’s great, but when Tevye is older than the Rabbi it’s a problem. I mean, when Tevye says to Lazar Wolf “I always wanted a son… of course, I wanted one that was younger than me” how does that work with a 73 year old Tevye?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Aug 12, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Good thing you passed on Pantages
Topol missed 5 dates. Wasn’t feeling well. 73, ya know?
One did get the sense that he was a much older Tevye, but he didn’t seem too old. Topol was younger than Tevye in the movie.
Anyway, I’ve seen Fiddler plenty. I went to see Topol, old or not. Had a blast. He still has vigor. Had a blast.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Agreed
I’ve been unimpressed with the WOD so far. Of course, with my French exposure, insouciant and travail and métier were gimmes. Still – all good words to work into the working vocabulary, getting beyond simple recognition.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Aug 12, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
The thing about Clips Nation
It’s not just that we’re not really being challenged by the WOD (shouldn’t it be WotD?), but the fact that there’s a nice little Topol discussion in this thread.
“In other Jewish related news…” is definitely in my top 5 of things ever written on this site. MP just brings it, time after time, and if he’s going to starting throwing around the hebetude, watch out.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 13, 2009 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I have a particular soft spot for G-d's people
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Good point
It would get the comments going, that’s for sure.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Aug 12, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I wonder how this affects our collective feelings on Sessions or Iverson...
I’m pretty happy with things now, but do we have too much roster turnover? Five new guys last time I checked…
I think this would be a great time to see if we could get Q back!!
twolves looking to move him once again! i think we can offer cash and maybe bricky davis not sure exactly how it would work!
by clippersnomatterwhat on Aug 12, 2009 11:50 AM PDT reply actions
we don't really need him since we got Butler
…Butler is 1 year older than Q, but seems more in shape.
damn, Q is so banged up now that when I first saw the trade i thought we got a younger, healthier version.
…i only got the second part right
Actually its not a matter of getting Q..
but more of the matter of getting rid of Ricky.
But I’m still optimistic of Ricky doing okay as long as his knees don’t act up.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
I am in fact actually mike dunleavy. I am wearing a suit that looks like the sofa from married with children at work right now.
A Hero
Way to go, man. Very nice work.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 12, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Now if only you were as good with substitutions
On court player management as you were off court….
by Newton Pham on Aug 12, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Hair plugs too..
*sigh… I’m just glad I have a full head of hair…
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Now all we need
is for all our players to stay healthy throughout the year and we’ll have a great season.
It is...
But for the most part, that’s what happens when teams have successful seasons. It’s not unusual for injuries to scuttle seasons – but it’s also not unusual for teams to have relative injury free seasons and consequently play really well.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Aug 12, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Little ones, not big ones
There are going to be injuries. You just want them to be minor. Gasol, for instance, breaks a finger and he’s out for 3 weeks. What if it was something else and he was out for the season? The Celtics lost KG (and Powe) and were running for a long time on fumes (and heart). Season ending injuries to key players are a bummer. And then there’s basic durability, which is not a Clipper strength.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 12, 2009 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions
So who are you suggesting that should NOT break something inorder to have a better season?
ala Baron? Gordon? Blake? Kaman? Camby? Thornton? Butler?
I would say Baron… but it seems like a longshot this season for him to play remotely close to 82 games this season..
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Do you think....
Kelena for a conditional(lottery protection) first rounder would have been available… If so would you have preferred that to this move?
Also, given the injury history of Kaman and Camby wouldn’t you say it’s hard to call center a strength of the team?
DJordan
Yes, it’s hard to call center a strength at a glance, more because of Kaman’s injury history than Camby’s, but when you add DJordan to the mix (and the future), then it’s undoubtedly a position where the Clippers are in very good shape.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 12, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Well,
I certainly hope your right on this and the 40 win post…. My concern is that B. Davis and Camby have had long histories of missing a lot of games and they’re only getting older. Kaman’ s last two years have been riddled with injuries. At some point I think you have to factor they will collectively miss 30 and it won’t be a surprise if combined they miss more than 30… But again I hope your right.
I’m liking DJ too! I think that could be the huge wildcard that might help this team, not sure if he’s ready yet though. If he can get his conditioning together and give the team 15 to 20 minutes a night keeping ridiculous fouls to a minimum his shot blocking and rebounding could be pretty big! But I can’t say that I’m expecting it.
Actually I'm thinking that DJ might not get as much mins. as we would like...
If we thought last season had a lot of bigs, this season ha a few more centers than usual. With the inside game consisting (or just centers atleast) of Kaman, Camby, and Deandre, I would expect Camby to play more center this season (that idea of PF Camby wasn’t right), and that might leave DJ a bit in the dust. Of course, DJ can try PF…
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Less DJ could be a good thing
We all know there’s no bigger DJ fan than moi, but if DJ’s minutes are limited because Kaman, Camby, and Griffin are tearing it up, along with Smith and Novak, that would be great.
There’s no rush on DJ, especially if the Clips are winning games and playing well.
On the other hand, if Kaptain K is bumbling and stumbling, then sit him down and give his minutes to the youngster, and see if that improves Kaman’s focus.
It’s a bit unclear at the moment if DJ is a rotation player. He’s very close, but the addition of Smith and (possibly) Novak as solid backups/options at the 4, behind the Saviour/Messiah/Chosen One, who needs to play A LOT, means that DJ could be safely tucked away in the cellar, aging like a fine wine.
And that would be a good thing. On a team that wins 19 games, DJ needs more minutes. On a team that wins 40+, he’s there, working hard to improve, and ready to go as needed.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 13, 2009 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Its still a bit far to tell if Clippers are going to be a 40+ win team.
Its hard to take Baron’s word about his work ethics without a grain of salt. If I remember correctly, he was said to be working out at Jenny Craig last season, or something like that. All I remembr is thathewas talking aboutworking out. After this season, the results weren’t really there.
Anyways, your a bit right. DJ probably needs fewer mins then we should expect, but I’m just saying that DJ should get some mins for the experience.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
It would help but not much!..
the addition of sessions would be good too
by KobeDomination on Aug 12, 2009 12:52 PM PDT reply actions
Helps iso's for EJ and Thornton
I like how Butler will be able to complement either of those guys offensively and defensively. In particular, EJ and Thornton both have good a face-up game around the perimeter and Butler just needs to space out on those types of possessions.
See Clipperblog
KA, from an undisclosed vacation spot, does a nice job of breaking down Butler and the way that the Clips’ offense, and Gordon and Griffin in particular, can benefit by having him in the lineup. Like me, he’d like it if Butler were a better rebounder, and he makes the official pronouncement that Butler lacks the necessary Glue Guy preresquisites, but he likes his defense and there’s seems to be a strong consensus that this is a very solid move by the GMMDSr and the Clips.
Just a question: since KA works for him now, is Henry Abbott not allowed to write about the Clippers? With KA on vacation he could make a comment or two on Griffin, BDavis, maybe this new move—but he maybe he’s worried about KA’s critique and wants to leave it to his resident expert.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 12, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Who has more seniority
I don’t see Madsen or Butler making much of a fuss about it though they both seem like good guys.
In Gordon we trust
A Chris Paul fan count?
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Still haven't gotten info on this
“Ask Chris Paul about how he like playing for Byron Scott.”
Um, maybe that was “ask Rasual Butler about playing for Byron Scott.”
by citizen zhiv on Aug 13, 2009 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions
So on using the rest of the trade exception
I think it would be great to get a person like J.J Reddick if we dont get Novak back just to have someone spread the floor if we are in need of 3’s (Good quality 3’s, not BDavis’s walk up and shoot the 3)
I defintiely would take Novak over Thornton.
Seems to me that if Dunleavy wanted to, Thornton should be able to play the 2 also; putting him at 2,3, and 4..
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Sorry...
I’;d take Novak over Reddick. A very bad brain fart…
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
LAC line-up 2009-10
No matter what the Clipper and Al Thornton haters say this will be the set for the opener:
BD
EJ
AT
BG
Kaman
No way Butler fills AT’s shoes, period.
Actually
I think Butler should start.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
add me to that list
i’d actually like to see thornton’s minutes drop to around 30 a night….but by coming off the bench and becoming the 1st or 2nd option(as compared to 4th or 5th with the starters) i expect him to be a more efficient player. GM dunleavy continues to impress me. now if only coach dunleavy could live up to his end of the bargain….
I'd like to see
If somehow Thornton has worked on his game to fit in with a more free flowing system with actual ball rotation. If he’s able to make quick decisions and move the ball around, he can potentially stay a starter.
But if he hasn’t improved and remains the ball stopping isolation shot jacker he was been the last two years, then he should be moved to the bench in favor of Butler.
Given Thornton’s age, I’m not sure he’ll be able to make a huge adjustment. But let’s hope I’m wrong.
I think that the way
Thornton plays would suit a rotation backup job (or 6th man) better than it does a starting position anyway.
Like you said, he’s become a bit of a ball stopper and I’d rather see Butler start and spread the floor and give the option of the 3 regularly with Eric able to hit from outside as well or drive.
With our new inside/outside game and ability to move the ball quicker, I think Butler is a great fit (am sooooo please with this trade) and Thornton then becomes a good weapon off the bench.
With Smith and Thornton able to score off the bench, Camby bringing some shot blocking and Telfair orchestrating, we just need one more piece in my eyes to make this team a very hard matchup to play against.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Aug 12, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
Well put all around.
Plus, putting Butler in the starting lineup gives us 3 vets in the starting lineup to surround EJ and Griffin. I think that’s a really important factor. Youngsters, even those as good as our G-Force, are prone to mistakes. The fewer youngsters on the court at once, the better. Especially if you can surround the kids with heady vets like Butler.
It’s kinda tough already given that both Baron and Kaman, despite being vets, tend to make their share of boneheaded plays.
Plus, as part of the 2nd unit, Thornton can do his isolation jab step parade all he wants. Slows the ball down and gives the starters more time to rest.
Like the vets point MG
I’m hoping regarding the boneheaded plays of Kaman and Baron that as they now they haven’t got the same amount of pressure to produce scoring plays regularly, they can be a bit more submissive to EJ and Blake and to a lesser extent if he starts, Butler.
Gives them less double teams and hopefully better quality of scoring opportunities (although Kaman has the potential to screw up free layups!).
Yep, Thornton can do his jap step and jumper as much as he likes and against backup defenders, I think that might be a nice little weapon to get some points on the boards, something we’ve been lacking consistently from our bench.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Is Thornton really a ball stopper?
I think Thornton played the way he did because of MDsr’s system. During the frosh soph game he was doing all kinds of good stuff in a free flowing offense.
We were all pretty shocked to see how well he ran the floor and dished it out. It seemed like his BBIQ jumped 40 pts that day.
Let’s not sour the guy quite yet. We have much more to see from the man.
agreed
if thornton can learn rely ONLY on easy fast break buckets to the rim (assuming the clippers run) then he should start with the “set 4”
and if thornton can regain his shooting touch from his rookie season then WOW. Butler just became an awesome bench player…reminds of that one season when an opposition team’s coach was asked “how good are the clippers?” and he responses “they are so good cuttino mobley comes off the bench”…butler could be our mobley.
however…that’s A LOT if IFs for Mr. Thornton
Good point
I think Thornton had some bad habits and mindsets that got worse on a horrible, injury-riddled, struggling team. He was a ball stopper because he knew guys like Ricky Davis, Tim Thomas and BD were shooting 35%. His game has some major limitations, but I’d like to see how he fares when he’s a 3rd or 4th option and he’s with a bunch of healthy starters.
And he got a lot better after DTS called him out—even though DTS was clueless and screaming at the wrong guy.
Thornton seems like a very good kid who wants to work hard and improve. A very tough sophomore season for him, with all of the injuries and turnover and turmoil. Have to have a very open mind about his prospects.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 13, 2009 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Yup, yup, yup...
Tough soph season, yup, good kid, yup, works hard, yup, open mind, yup. You guys nailed it.
I seriously like Camby as a starter. Kaman can rest his widdle feet coming off the bench.
by Gordon for President on Aug 12, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Great Pickup!
Perhaps my favorite one yet, this is what we’ve all been clamouring for. Great to see the organization get something done. As much as they want to protect AT, they recognized something needed to be done to fortify the position.
Great stuff as usual Steve
K.A. is back in town, right in time for all the action. I enjoyed the part about the conditional second rounders- it’s easy to forget that those picks rarely ever materialize.
+1
Was good to check the site regularly (as usual for me on these 2 sites) and find quite a lot of new posts up.
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Thank you guys
Thanks for the kind words, they mean a lot to me!
+1
Very solid stuff. All the more impressive in a slow time.
by citizen zhiv on Aug 12, 2009 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for the update D.J.
I thought that might be the case. And I agree with madglove below – you did a great job with CB in Kevin’s absence. When he’s a big ESPN columnist, it’ll be all yours, right?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Aug 12, 2009 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks Steve
I think Clipperblog would actually burst into flames if K.A. ever left for good though.
Rasual Butler's twitter
I am excited about Being a clipper! Thanks N.O. for all the Support u guys gave me! Thank u to all those who have welcomed me to L.A.!!
Everyone on this Blog is bashing AT
AT is a Run and Gun player and this year with a better injection of BD’s type of play AT is gonna prove everyone wrong on this Clipper Basher Blog.
AT……this dude is the Best Clipper we have Hands Down.
I've been at BD's camp all of this week and he really looks good. He's definitely been working out. I hope we get the "We believe" BD in LA this season.
"Success only comes before work inside of a dictionary!"
That is a good sign
I really do believe if Baron is in shape he can really help us he is definitely a key to our success.
In Gordon we trust
by bestclipfan on Aug 12, 2009 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions
It' too hard to tell right now who the best Clipper is.
Prior to last season, Baron Davis would have been our best Clipper. All of a sudden BDizzle seemed to have fallen into a strange reality that he’s just Baron Davis. I would still say Baron could potentialyl be our best player as long as he can go back to his old form and stop eating McD’s.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Blake is happy...
“Glad to have Rasual Butler as a teammate I’ve heard great things about him.”
:3
Stuck in limbo.
So is Rasual...
“Whats up Twam its been a long day for me! I was traded to the clippers today! one chapter ends and another begins! gonna MiSS the Hornets!”
“I am excited about Being a clipper! Thanks N.O. for all the Support u guys gave me! Thank u to all those who have welcomed me to L.A.!!!!”
Stuck in limbo.
Great trade...
I’ve tried to keep myself from being optimistic about the Clippers because they always seem to find a way to let me down. While I’m not going to predict any success, this move coupled with everything else that has transpired this offseason has made it pretty hard not to have hope. Butler is exactly what the Clips needed (a combo guard/forward with an all around skill set) and they got him for nothing. This gives the Clippers a very solid starting 5.
Also, it strengthens the bench. As much as I like adding Rasual Butler, I like moving Thornton to the bench even more. Thornton is not built to be a starter, as we saw this past season. Moving him to the bench will hide these defeciencies and also let him being a scoring threat off of the bench. With his scoring ability, he’s got the potential to be a great bench player. All of a sudden, we could be going from frustrated with him to loving what he brings off the pine.
This is a great move. Hopefully, things will pan out (hopefully being the key word).
"If a Clippers fan is reading a newspaper in his living room and the ceiling falls on him, he'll just shrug and move to another room." -Bill Simmons
by WestsideBrandon on Aug 12, 2009 8:53 PM PDT reply actions
What about Novak?
I know this is a random thought but has anyone looked into what happens to Novak now? Butler’s got a solid stroke from beyond the arc (though not as solid as Novak) but can do much more (boards, defense, play the swing, etc.). Does this trade pretty much end his days as a Clipper and make him expendable?
Need Lessened for Novak
We submitted a qualifying offer already and are waiting to see who, if anyone, offers him more. The signing of Butler means to me that we’d be more willing to let Novak sign elsewhere if the price isn’t what we want to pay. Before today, we would have had more incentive to match.
If no one steps up to try and pay Novak, i’d imagine we’d still keep him
What if we need a 3 at the end of the game? We could potentially put out BD, EJ, Butler, Novak, and Griffin. Pretty sweet, especially when compared with Clipper teams in the past.
BD, EJ, Butler, Novak, BG
my…that defense will be spread thinner than air!
wiki has Butler’s nickname as “The Phoenix” …anyone ever hear that one? Hornets blog called him “Sool”
“Sool for 3…BINGOOO!!” can’t wait to hear that all season long!
Novak back!
I dont care what the addition of Butler does to it…
Im sick of Ramon Sessions toying with NY and LA; just put that guy back in the D-League! It’s already been 2 weeks and he said he was going to sign an offer soon..
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Great trade, Butler fills out our biggest need now. I just noticed that he’s 30 years old. For some reason I thought he’s younger, like 27-28 years old.
same here
i thought we got a younger, more humble, more in shape version of Q. Richardson…..
instead we got an older, more humble, more in shape version of Q. Richardson
he’s the same size and age as ricky buckets was last year oddly. ricky was one of those guys who you always thought was younger too. hopefully he works out better.
Actually I alwaysthought Davis was THAT old...
That’s why he even signed with the Clippers to begin with.. more money to sit like a grandpa.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
really,
… i don’t see this butler acquisition as us having to need novak less as it helps to use novak properly. i think we were using more than needed or just improperly. i’d say over usage. the guy is the best shooter in the league. you keep him. he is a gun slinger… quick draw mcgraw
by Takebb909 on Aug 13, 2009 7:34 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I think the question is, how many will MDSr. carry...
Seems like most of the league is cutting back to thirteen. Novak would be fourteen. It seems to me if they’re light anywhere it’s in the backcourt. Clips have two extra contracts: Ricky Davis and Mark Madsen. Seems unlikely they’ll buy those guys out. They have an offer out to Novak at a million, I guess he’s worth that, but not much more… especially as a guy who’s, at best, an eleventh man.

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